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| Cats: Not hardcore gamers. |
On MGTOWforums.com, the central questions about women and gaming aren’t “what do women want, game-wise” or “is there something about certain types of games that repels women, or do they stay away because it gets really tiresome really quickly to have to listen to 14-year-old boys calling them “cunts” on XboxLive?” No, to the MGTOWers the big question is simpler: Why are women allowed to play video games at all?
Why can’t men have their own space? …
Women, back the fuck off. You stole our TV. You stole our movies. You stole our malls. You stole our clothe shops. You stole our supermarkets Meanwhile the gays are stealing our gyms, our theater, our dance, our music. Video-games is all we have left.
I don’t hear this bitch [note: a commenter on CNET] complaining about the lack of inclusiveness of games like bejeweled to men (I’ve played bejeweled maybe 10 minutes in my life, fun for about that length of time or when you are sitting on the bus). …
Companies like Zynga want to make casual games to target the hundreds of millions of girls on facebook. Fine! … Why not push to make casual games more “male-friendly”, you bitch? Farm-ville and City-ville could use some thought. Those games suck. They are clearly designed for the modern day brainless airhead bimbo with too much time on her hands.
The only casual game I’ve ever sucked dry was Plants Vs. Zombies. And if you aim to finish everything it becomes really hardcore in the survival levels.
1) Women identify with their gender too much. It seems that taking control of a male avatar is a problem for most of them. They cannot identify. I can identify with almost all avatars today. Male, female, adult, child, alien etc…
2) Females have less interesting personalities in real life, and therefore in fiction. There is a reason fiction involves men going through challenges and being transformed by them. In video games the two female archetypes are: the princess and the “you go grrl”. Women in real life have less dimension. They aren’t interesting. They bitch or they submit. That’s it. And I don’t care to hear some loud mouthed bitch barking orders at me through an ear piece. It’s unpleasant. If I’m in a war simulator I like hearing men talk. They usually have unique personalities, accents, character traits etc… When female characters do this they come off as pretending to be men and it doesn’t work.
Bitches like the one above form groups funded by donations to artificially fuck with the market. Men’s money today goes overwhelmingly towards good video-games. Let the market decide what women get. Bitch!
>This article on Vaginaphobia: The Fear of Women in Gaming on the escapist seems apt". . .[T]his fantasy of being under constant siege by a multitude of external feminizing forces is really an unconscious defense that is employed to keep out of mind something even more disturbing – an identification with women."
>Amnesia, that may be true. Like I said in my comment, while Antifeminist and folks like him may believe porn and CP reduce the incidences of these bad things IRL, I'm not actually sure they really do, I'd have to do some more research before coming to a conclusion (for instance, is there a correlation between porn use and rape in a given population? If so, whether it's positive or negative, is there research proving a causative relationship?), but I'm just saying the argument isn't unreasonable in and of itself, and some MRAs have made it.
>I'm just saying the argument isn't unreasonable in and of itself, and some MRAs have made it.However, you will understand there is considerable public opposition to the normalising of child pornography in any form, and that opposition straddles the gender divide. It is not gender specific. I also think you will find it hard to convince many people, men and women, left and right, of the reasonableness of that argument.
>Percyprune makes a good point. However, I want to point out that porn and violence is often oversimplified. It is a feedback loop, not a one way causation. People who are violent are more likely to seek out violent media, and violenct media only tends to increase violence wherein such violence is somewhat related to existing cultural norms. Someone who has problematic ideas about rape is more likely to be encouraged by rape porn, whereas someone who does not have these problematic ideas already probably will not be. "is there a correlation between porn use and rape in a given population" Yes. Increased porn use is positively correlated with increased sexual violence perpetration in men in the US. Those results hold fairly consistant study to study, though it is not a neat bell curve. At the lower use end, the curve is very slow, at the higher use end, it is extremely steep. While correlation does not prove causation, it is hard to make the argument that porn use reduces violence.
>Percy,True enough. I was just pointing out that in reference to your statement "you and your MRA chums should agitate for to overturn that legislation," some have. Still, as you said, it's likely they face an uphill battle. Now, I *definitely* don't have a personal stake in that debate, child porn grosses me the hell out. However, if what DarkSideCat mentioned is true, perhaps porn use does have negative externalities IRL. However, I would have to look at the studies myself to verify and see for myself before coming to a conclusion. I can do that myself, though, so please don't feel obligated to if you're busy ATM or whatever. In any case, thanks for your responses.
>Censoship: Government is behind the banning.Not Censorship: Individuals are behind it.Wow, I never thought I would see this argument made outside of an Objectivist board. One of their favorite tactics is to censor opposing views and then claim that it's not censorship because they are not the government, while completely ignoring the fact that language is a social convention and the conventional understanding of the word "censorship" is not restricted to the government. If it were, then there would be a separate word used to describe the act of a private individual or group suppressing information or expression.
>Cold just cannot bring himself to say that portraying the rape of a kid in a game is bad, as long as it's a female child being raped. But what he calls censorship—-having his unique views of those bitches 'censored' OMG—–that gets him pissed.
>UNITED STATES v. WHORLEY kills your argument Cold on it being a mere factor of free speech that a family judge cannot consider when determining if he or she should ban a parent from being around their kid when they play such a game.
>And by being around their kid-I mean in general not just when they are playing that on their computer.
>Let's see: a rape simulation game is unable to hurt anyone? You are upset that people might have complaints about it and want it removed from sale? This is somehow a demonstration that feminism has gone beyond The Pale?That's right, it's unable to hurt anyone. If you play a flight sim and use it re-enact 9/11, how many real people die? Hint: it's the same as the number of real people who get raped in a rape sim. I have no interest in playing such a game but I have the foresight to realize that banning it sets the stage for games that I do want to play to eventually get banned as well. I also take a dim view of censorship as a matter of principle.Feminism went "beyond The Pale" a long time ago; a feminist group imposing themselves on another culture over a stupid computer game is but one example of their intolerance and moral absolutism.More revealingly, people on this rape game's forum (including yourself, it seems) have become MRAs as a consequence of the backlash against it?I became an MRA long before this incident. The forum in question isn't dedicated to that one game; it is home to a release team responsible for many games. The cultural imperialism of Equality Now resulted in an explosion of anti-feminist threads and a massive anti-feminist awakening among other members, many of whom shared my view of that game being incredibly stupid. Some even felt it was downright offensive but were still far more offended by Equality Now's campaign.I realize that moral absolutists have a hard time comprehending a "live and let live" mindset but that is the mindset that predominates in some communities.So as I understand it your defence of this piece of child pornography is a defence of freedom of expression.Is calling a game "incredibly stupid" a defense now? You have it backwards; my defense of freedom of expression happens to cover things that I find incredibly stupid or even downright offensive as long as no actual person is harmed. Fictional cartoon characters are not actual people. I am vehemently opposed to any pornography that was not produced entirely by consenting adults, but I have seen no evidence that any of the animators, programmers, or voice actors fell short of that description. In fact, as far as I can tell none of the fictional characters in that game have an official age and all three rape victims are old enough to get pregnant.And that somehow this is a backlash against 'femi-fascism' (rather than, say, common decency).Common decency is to not concern yourself over what other people do in the privacy of their own homes as long as they aren't harming anyone else. There is nothing decent about banning a game that harms nobody. It's also a futile effort; the Internet regards censorship as damage and routes around it. You might as well try to boil the ocean, freeze the sun, or prove the existence of absolute moral facts.Speaking as a parent and as a games developer, I think you have your priorities wrong, Cold. You may wish to reconsider your position.Just because my priorities aren't what you want them to be doesn't mean they are wrong. You may want to reconsider your implied premise that you are some kind of moral authority.
>UNITED STATES v. WHORLEY kills your argument Cold on it being a mere factor of free speech that a family judge cannot consider when determining if he or she should ban a parent from being around their kid when they play such a game.Work on your reading comprehension.
>While correlation does not prove causation, it is hard to make the argument that porn use reduces violence.It's even harder to make the argument that it increases violence, since if that were true Japan would have one of the highest rates of violent crime and sex crime in the world instead of one of the lowest.
>Cold just cannot bring himself to say that portraying the rape of a kid in a game is bad, as long as it's a female child being raped. But what he calls censorship—-having his unique views of those bitches 'censored' OMG—–that gets him pissed.LOL Ginmar, I was wondering when you would find your way here. Yeah unlike you I'm not a moral absolutist and realize that it's up to individuals to make their own decisions about what is good and bad, and yes I realize you still find that to be mind-boggling. I see you haven't quit with the strawman arguments either.
>Here are some groups which have enacted — not just advocated, enacted — bans or restrictions on violent videogames in the last decade:The government of the state of California.The Army and Airforce Exchange Service.Somalian Islamic extremists.The British Board of Film Classification.The Venezuelan national parliament.An government elected by voters who are at least 50% female is not "male-dominated". I'll accept that Islamic extremeists are probably male-dominated but that's obviously outside the implied scope of my assertion.
>Here's a link to some MRAs complaining about anti-male violence in a computer game.Again, reading comprehension. Those MRAs didn't say anything about organizing a campaign to ban the game.
>You may wish to study those parts of the US and UK laws on child pornography that take a dim view of all forms of child porn, and not just those that involve actual children.Anyone who defines child porn, for legal purposes, as meaning anything other than porn whose production involves the exploitation of real, flesh-and-blood children has an ulterior motive.You and your like-minded MRA chums might want to agitate to overturn that legislation before you take a stance on those who complain about the game.The game was only ever legally available for sale in Japan, where such legislation does not exist. Japanese people demonstrate higher intelligence and the ability to understand the difference between a real, flesh-and-blood child and a cartoon.I'd be interested to see how much public (and male) support you get for that.What is this, the intersection of feminism and conservative populism?
>"It's even harder to make the argument that it increases violence, since if that were true Japan would have one of the highest rates of violent crime and sex crime in the world instead of one of the lowest."Laughing out loud at this. Someone needs a reality check.Rape is one of the most under reported crimes there is, especially in Japan where the victim will be blamed and shamed for speaking out and causing a fuss. This has only recently started to change and, surprise surprise, reported rape cases have spiked since 2000. Ignoring rape, it's still common knowledge that Japan is not the place to go if you don't want to get molested on the subway. They have to have female only cars to prevent these molestations for Christ's sake. I'd call that a serious cultural problem.
>@Cold, did you notice that my argument was not that porn increases violence per se, but that porn can reinforce and exacerbate already existing social and individual problems with violence? The evidence does not really support either of these propositions "increased porn causes decreased violence rates" or "increased porn use causes increased violence rates" is true in an absolute sense. There are a lot of third variables here. The same piece of porn can carry different meaning and encourage different behaviors in different cultures. A porn that implies the victim is a tease has less reinforcing value in a culture that does not hold that this is an acceptable/excusable rape than in one that does. This issue is not as simple as porn does/does not increase violence.
>Rape is one of the most under reported crimes there is, especially in Japan where the victim will be blamed and shamed for speaking out and causing a fuss.Falsely claiming to have been raped is one of the most under-reported crimes there is. I have as much evidence of this as you do of the claim above.Ignoring rape, it's still common knowledge that Japan is not the place to go if you don't want to get molested on the subway.It's common knowledge that Japan is not the place to go if you don't want to get falsely accused of molesting someone on the subway.
>@Cold, did you notice that my argument was not that porn increases violence per se, but that porn can reinforce and exacerbate already existing social and individual problems with violence?Yes, that's why I spoke of the argument in and of itself instead of attributing it to you.
>Wow, Cold, I love Phoenix Wright too! Who do you cosplay as? There are lots of female characters but my favourite is Klavier Gavin obviously 😀I've done Dick Gumshoe(incredibly easy to cosplay), Miles Edgeworth(the most expensive cosplay I have ever done), and Klavier's older brother Kristoph(relatively easy but required me to wear a blonde wig). The funniest comment I got was, when cosplaying as Gumshoe, "I know you're just trying to stay in character but could you please zip up your fly?"I'd just steer clear of someone, male or female, who chooses entertainment where you, the protaganist, rape a little girl. Same as I avoid people who read the Daily Mail.I have my concerns about anyone who seriously enjoys a game like that, but it seems to me that most people who played it did so for the trainwreck effect(you just can't help but look). Rape is a VERY common theme in Japanese media and the only thing unique about Rapelay is that the rapist is the protagonist instead of the antagonist. I think it coincides with the tendency of Japanese horror movies and games to focus more on psychological elements rather than a splatterfest. As one Japanese girl I used to date said, "This isn't scary, just gross."I think Japanese rape porn is, to a large extent, just an overlap between the genres of pornography and horror. Such an overlap is largely unknown in the west, so westerners tend to get shocked by it and freak out at something they don't understand. Many people have a very hard time comprehending other cultures.
>Not sure why I'm bothering, since my last post prompted Cold to declare that acts undertaken by male-dominated governments aren't examples of acts undertaken by groups of men, but what the hell.We actually DO have a pretty good idea of how much rape is underreported, in the US at least, thanks to the National Crime Victims Survey conducted by the Department of Justice. And yes, those stats show that rape is less likely to be reported than other violent crimes, although the gap has narrowed in recent years.
>I declared that I don't consider those governments to be male-dominated due to the fact that at least half of the voters are women.People can lie on surveys and falsely claim to have been raped, which I asserted to be one of the most under-reported crimes. Your use of a survey as evidence depends on my assertion being false, but I believe it to be true based on a plethora of documented cases of false rape claims as well as countless more anecdotal reports of it.
>Cold, your pretentious yet ignorant statements about Japan are piling up to a painful degree. For starters, Japan pretty much invented splatterfest horror. Second, intersecting porn and horror is "largely unknown in the west"? You're an idiot. Have you seen Hostel? Are you familiar with the phrase "torture porn"? I've made only light forays into horror subculture, but your experience appears to encompass watching Ringu and then deciding you're suddenly an expert on horror and Japan.
>I don't know… I have an X-box 360 and a Wii in my room and play tons of games on my DS. I have first person shooters, "casual" games (including Plants V.S. Zombies, which I have beat), and RPGs. I'm a gamer. I'm a woman. I'm a feminist. And YES! One thing that bothers me is that I can't be a woman in lots of games, another issues is that I can't be a fat woman in most games (I am a fat woman and would like to be represented as one in the games I play). I get into games more when I feel like my character looks like me. It's just more fun. I don't play to be someone else, I play to be me doing these crazy things that I can't do in real life. Whatever. Guys, there is no such thing as "a place of [your] own" for anyone. Get over it.