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evil women hypergamy men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny reactionary bullshit woman's suffrage

>Days of Whine and Roses

>

The face (and torso) of evil.

Certain kinds of stories are like catnip to the Men Going Their Own Way crowd: Stories about rich airheaded women. Stories about golddiggers and giant divorce settlements. Stories about idiotic or incompetent women. So it’s no surprise that the tale of Patricia Kluge and her not-so-successful foray into the world of winemaking has sent the fellows on MGTOWforums.com into full-on misogyny mode.

Kluge, you see, is the former wife of a media mogul, and her divorce settlement in 1990 netted her hefty alimony payments, which are variously claimed to have been either $1.6 million a week, or “less than $1 million a year.”  The article linked to by the MGTOWers says she was rumored to have collected a settlement of a cool billion bucks and that the reported $1.6 million a week was just the interest on this vast sum. Who knows? It was a shitload of money. Plus a giant fucking mansion. Whatever the amount, Kluge has apparently blown through it all, spending huge amounts on ostentatious luxury crap and burning through tens of millions on her less-than-successful winery. Last month the bank repossessed her mansion.

So: this terrible woman was also a terrible businesswoman. Well, yeah. But to the fellows at MGTOWforums.com, her singular tale is a sign that women in general shouldn’t be trusted with money — or with anything else, for that matter. Chainlightning started off what turned into a veritable misogyny cascade by announcing:

Women should never have access to money. Look at what happened to the US since the 1960s.

Systems1082 saw Chainlightning’s “women shouldn’t have money” and raised him with “women shouldn’t have the right to vote.”

It actually goes back to 1920 when women were given the right to vote. They have learned they can vote themselves other people’s money.

Stonelifter took it even further, suggesting that some women don’t ever deserve the right to live:

i don’t understand why men don’t engage in more murder for hire

He followed this innocent little query up with a reference to the evil feminist Karl Marx and his followers at “some college in Berlin.”

it goes back to about 1870 so so when marx decided tearing down Western civilization was best achieved on many small fronts and women would be one of them. Cultural marxism was tied up into one neat package in some college in Berlin during the 1920’s but the idea to have women voting to fuck everything up came to marx at the tail end of his life

XTC pretty much trumped everyone by taking it back to the source: that bitch Eve.

It goes back to the garden of Eden when Eve screwed us all over.

So there you have it. Eve ate an apple, Patricia Kluge blew through money she didn’t really deserve to have. Therefore, women are evil.

Um, have you MGTOWers ever heard of Nicolas Cage?

(Note: Before you tell me that Nic Cage earned his money fair and square, I ask that you sit down and watch The Wicker Man, Ghost Rider, National Treasure, National Treasure: Book of Secrets, Face/Off, and Con Air. Then get back to me. I will allow that he did a pretty good job in Kick-Ass.)

(Note 2: By “some college in Berlin in the 1920s,” Stonelifter was of course referring to an assortment of Marxist theorists associated with a research institute that started in Frankfurt, not Berlin, in the 1920s, but which achieved its greatest influence after it moved to New York in the 1930s because of, you know, Hitler.)

If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the “Share This” or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it.

*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.

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triplanetary
9 years ago

>I wish people who peddle fear about all those filthy radicals trying to destroy "Western civilization" would be a tad clearer about what "Western civilization" actually means. Democracy? Capitalism? Christianity? None of these are constants in the history of Western civilization.Of course, they're being deliberately vague. By holding up "Western civilization" as some unassailable good in itself they get to deflect attention from the fact that reasonable people can disagree about the pros and cons of things like democracy, socialism, and capitalism without being a threat to all of civilization.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.A certain number of female airheads, golddiggers and incompetents are not only accounted for, but actually PREDICTED, under this theory.

johnnykaje
9 years ago

>In my experience, "Western civilization" means "white people". This is why everything that is directly south of the US is usually not included, while Europe, Australia and South Africa are.

Amnesia
9 years ago

>Well, it's not like men are ever irresponsible with their money. I mean, you never hear about CEO's paying themselves ridiculous salaries while laying off the people that helped them succeed in the first place because the economy's bad, or alcoholics that waste the entire family budget on drinks instead of providing for the kids they helped produce, or lottery winners that end up on the streets a year later cause they blew all that money on a lifestyle they couldn't maintain, or if you do hear about people like that, they're almost NEVER male.Maybe because men are just better at math or something.

Amnesia
9 years ago

>That comment left out the "/sarcasm" I put at the bottom of it, but hopefully it wasn't necessary.

iodineshuffle
9 years ago

>Bernie Madoff lost 70 billion dollars that he did not earn. Therefore, the sensible conclusion is that we should ban men from voting or having money, and it's totally reasonable for women to murder them. Also this is all totally that dick Adam's fault.Wow, this game is fun!

scintillator
9 years ago

>Funny, IME men are worse than money than women are. In most of the married couples I know, and in my own marriage, the wife is in charge of the couple's shared finances. Not because she's a castrating bitch but because someone has to make sure that the rent/mortgage gets paid and the power doesn't get cut off, and the men are not willing to take this on.I only do a middling job of this myself – I know we could theoretically save more and pay down our debt faster – but we did manage to buy a house as two freelancers in the middle of a recession, so I must be doing something right.But because some rich lady mismanaged her money and her business, I ought to lose the right to vote and get shot to boot. That makes sense.

scintillator
9 years ago

>Worse WITH money, not worse THAN money. Dammit!

DFigs
9 years ago

>I liked National Treasure 🙁 And yes, Kickass was awesome.

Amnesia
9 years ago

>@iodineshuffleI know, no wonder MRAs and MGTOWs play it so often! Time for the next round: Blame punk rock and/or sock monkeys for the failures of the United States public school system.

Alex_P
9 years ago

>I refer you to this.http://xkcd.com/385/

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Man, I was wondering when someone would bring up Eve… personally, I think the snake did us a favor. Enlightenment and knowledge? Hell, I'm glad Eve took the first bite! Eden was a prison and only seemed a paradise because Adam and Eve were too ignorant to tell the difference before the apple. It wasn't a fall or sin, it was uplifting and humans coming one step closer to gods. But that's the Gnostic in me speaking, I love the countercultural symbolism behind the Eden myth. I wonder if XTC knows that men have been blaming Eve and using that as justification for misogyny for several thousand years. It's time to get some new material, folks!

Johnny
9 years ago

>No man has ever run a business into the ground. Read a book!

carswell
9 years ago

>I believe that men's activities were behind the Wall Street crash of 1929 – not to mention every one since then. They were busy gambling away tons of money that wasn't their own.Sheesh.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>@ Carswell:But they were only doing it to provide the women in their lives with a cushy lifestyle. So it's women's fault, again.

chocomintlipwax
9 years ago

>Because it was my *sister* who squandered away 10s of thousands of dollars of their college money on toys and DVDs and wound up in massive debt they can't climb out of … Oh wait. I don't have a sister. Just a brother. Whoops. Meanwhile, as much as I want to eat a nice dinner out somewhere, I can't justify spending $20 on one meal. But I'm sure MRAs would spin my frugality as being a "penny pinching no-fun feminist." Because you're always damned if you do and damned if you don't when you're a woman. (I'm sure they'd even try to paint my brother's behavior as something positive. Because he has a penis.)

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

>choco,Obviously, your brother was just trying to impress gold-digging women, who then proceeded to cruelly ignore him in favor of alpha bad-boys. One can hardly blame him, really. Meanwhile, your refusal to spend a lot of money on yourself means that you would, of course, expect any man you date to pay for a lavish dinner, after which you will then sleep with the alpha bad-boy waiter while your hapless date washes dishes to pay for your meal. Oh yes, I'm on to you.Whee! This is fun!

e4919700-4d45-11e0-bbf3-000bcdcb8a73

>If you hate the MRM so much, who should answer for this?As a woman …1. I have a much lower chance of being murdered than a man.2. I have a much lower chance of being driven to successfully commit suicide than a man.3. I have a lower chance of being a victim of a violent assault than a man.4. I have probably been taught that it is acceptable to cry.5. I will probably live longer than the average man.6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise.7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man.8. I am given much greater latitude to form close, intimate friendships than a man is.9. My chance of suffering a work-related injury or illness is significantly lower than a man’s.10. My chance of being killed on the job is a tiny fraction of a man’s.11. If I shy away from fights, it is unlikely that this will damage my standing in my peer group or call into question my worthiness as a sex partner.12. I am not generally expected to be capable of violence. If I lack this capacity, this will generally not be seen as a damning personal deficiency.13. If I was born in North America since WWII, I can be almost certain that my genitals were not mutilated soon after birth, without anesthesia.14. If I attempt to hug a friend in joy, it’s much less likely that my friend will wonder about my sexuality or pull away in unease.15. If I seek a hug in solace from a close friend, I’ll have much less concern about how my friend will interpret the gesture or whether my worthiness as a member of my gender will be called into question.16. I generally am not compelled by the rules of my sex to wear emotional armor in interactions with most people.17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family.18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’.19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question.20. If I interact with other people’s children — particularly people I don’t know very well — I do not have to worry much about the interaction being misinterpreted.21. If I have trouble accommodating to some aspects of gender demands, I have a much greater chance than a man does of having a sympathetic audience to discuss the unreasonableness of the demand, and a much lower chance that this failure to accommodate will be seen as signifying my fundamental inadequacy as a member of my gender.22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man.24. My role in my child’s life is generally seen as more important than the child’s father’s role.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>TO the extent that these things are true, and a lot of them are, I can tell you who should NOT have to answer for these things: feminists. Indeed, feminists push for less rigid gender roles, which would make it easier for men to express emotions, be nonviolent, etc etc. As for women living longer than men, well, women used to die earlier because many of them dies in childbirth. Now that's less common, and women live longer. Should medical science "have to answer for this?" Or should we say, hey, it's great that women can live longer today, and let's continue working to lengthen the lives of both sexes however we can. Demanding "equality" here seems bizarre; men and women have different biology; why should we expect them to die at the exact same ages?

Johnny
9 years ago

>Out of those 24, most of those are restrictions that men use to box themselves in, mostly the residue of patriarchal standards. Some of them are just invented, or easily circumvented, and thus don't constitute institutional discrimination. What's funny is that feminists want to break down many of the social standards given in your list. Do you think feminists want men to be expected to be capable of violence? Or to be unable to be soft?I think many MRAs have confused women who reinforce patriarchy with feminists simply because they believe anything that harms men is feminism. In actuality, any feminist worth their salt will tell you that patriarchy harms men as well as women.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>Mr. Long String of Alphanumeric Characters (can I call you String?), your claims are nothing more than a rehash of the usual arguments to the effect of "hey women, patriarchy protects you in these ways, so you should be grateful and accept the disempowerment that patriarchy wants to impose on you." Patriarchal men are all so convinced that women have it easy in patriarchy, and yet women have been fighting for hundreds of years and more to break free from the restraints of patriarchy.A lot of the items on your list are BS anyway, but the ones that are true are, as already stated in other comments, not the fault of feminism. Rigid gender roles hurt people of both genders, because they stifle individual freedom and self-determination. But rigid gender roles are the product of patriarchy.I do think one item on your list deserves special mention:22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.Sexually active women are frequently labelled sluts and whores at best, and beaten and raped at worst. A former girlfriend of mine made the "mistake" of having sex with me in her dorm room and proceeded to suffer horrible harassment for the rest of the semester. At one point she had to scare off a group of guys with a knife, which she actually had the training to use. In that regard she was luckier than many sexually active women.To claim that the mild ribbing that guys receive for abstaining from sex even slightly compares is inhuman and disgusting. Fuck you, String.

wytchfinde555
9 years ago

>Johnny said… "Out of those 24, most of those are restrictions that men use to box themselves in, mostly the residue of patriarchal standards." Are you blaming patriarchy or men? Methinks it's the latter.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>Are you blaming patriarchy or men? Methinks it's the latter.It's patriarchy that gets the blame, because it's not men alone who reinforce patriarchy. Women do it, too. Despite MRA perceptions of persecution, most women aren't feminists. Indeed most people don't think too deeply about these matters. Watch any given romantic comedy if you want to see modern America's general perception of gender issues. It's not overly thoughtful.And people who don't think too deeply about a given issue usually just fall in line with the status quo, which in the matter of gender issues is patriarchy.

carswell
9 years ago

>23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man.Oh please. That is utter nonsense.

missyb9479
9 years ago

>6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise.No, I'll only be judged on how I look compared to some impossible beauty standard. If I am too fat, too thin, have tits that are too small, have hair that is too thin, am too tall, am too short, etc. I'll just be told that I need to change in order to be worthy of love. An entire industry exists just to try and help women be more attractive so that they can be worthy of love. A dozen magazines every month tell women what they have to do to be pretty. Is there something similar for men who aren't of high enough status?7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man.As long as I'm attractive. Remember that. Only if I was born to meet the beauty standard. And if I happen to be a person of color then I get the extra issue of being considered unattractive because of my skin color. Look at the popularity of skin bleaching creams. Because women have to be fair and beautiful to be worthy. It's our bodies that matter, not our minds.18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’.Unless those clothes are too short. Or too low cut. Or too tight. Then I'm a slut and deserve to be shamed. And it my clothes are too baggy then I'm ugly and need to dress better to be seen as attractive.19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question.If I choose not to be those things then I'm told I'm a bitch or ball-buster. If I am naturally not these things then I am told I must change to fit those ideals. 17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family.This is not a good thing. My parents wouldn't pay for me to go to a school in another city because they "needed me". My brothers could do this without worry. They were encouraged to go off and see the world. I needed to stay close to home because I was the babysitter, petsitter, house cleaner, and caretaker. Why would somebody want these responsibilities placed on them without asking for them?22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.And I'm more likely to be shamed for being sexually active. Woo Hoo, normative gender issues are fun, aren't they?Feminists want to tear down these ideas. For both genders. The fact women are considered "less than" is the reason these ideas exist. When men show "feminine" traits like emotions they are mocked for being feminine, because being a woman is bad. When women show masculine traits they are shot down for being bitches or ball-busters. They are told that because they are only women they shouldn't try have masculine traits because that is above their station.If women and men were equals than there'd be no shame in a man acting like a woman or a woman being like a man. People could just be themselves. In other words, the answer to your problems is feminism!

e4919700-4d45-11e0-bbf3-000bcdcb8a73

>"To claim that the mild ribbing that guys receive for abstaining from sex even slightly compares is inhuman and disgusting. Fuck you, String."Well, we could also be assumed gay until proven innocent, and assaulted. We could also be labeled a "creep" for not "getting laid," and be forced into a state of involuntary celibacy. This "mild ribbing" often culminates in social isolation and terminates with a man killing himself.That being said, thank you for your very courteous and insightful comment. As always, feminists are pleasant, reasonable people who are always smiling.

e4919700-4d45-11e0-bbf3-000bcdcb8a73

>"Is there something similar for men who aren't of high enough status?"Yes, loneliness, despair, forced celibacy, and eventually suicide. There isn't really an industry to help with that because are often shamed for seeking outside help and also a yearly income is not masked or adjusted as easily as a body part.

e4919700-4d45-11e0-bbf3-000bcdcb8a73

>23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man."Oh please. That is utter nonsense."No, and a lot of the men who are "virgins" and you have labeled as "unfuckable losers" can attest to this.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>Mr. String– I agree with most of your list. Sexism, gender roles and patriarchy suck for everyone. To compare "who has it worse" is as silly as any game of Oppression Olympics is. However, the only group of people working to end gender roles IS (certain segments of) feminism. We want men to not be shamed for their virginity, to not be expected to be violent, to have worth regardless of our status.Figleaf's Real Adult Sex has some VERY good posts on male feminism, the worthiness myth and the no-sex class. If you want, I can give you a list of interesting books about feminism that explain some basic concepts. Come and join us. The water's fine. 🙂

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

>The antidote to all 24: more feminism.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>Well, we could also be assumed gay until proven innocent, and assaulted. We could also be labeled a "creep" for not "getting laid," and be forced into a state of involuntary celibacy.Yeah, these things could happen. But they don't. Any isolated instances that resemble the above situations are certainly far outnumbered by the women who are punished by men for being a "slut."This "mild ribbing" often culminates in social isolation and terminates with a man killing himself.No, not really. The isolation and suicide stem from severe social anxiety, the same thing that prevents these guys from getting laid in the first place. I want nothing but for them to get help.That being said, thank you for your very courteous and insightful comment. As always, feminists are pleasant, reasonable people who are always smiling.I make no claims to being pleasant or always smiling. If you want a disclaimer before each of my posts, perhaps we can arrange it.

missyb9479
9 years ago

>23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man."Oh please. That is utter nonsense."No, and a lot of the men who are "virgins" and you have labeled as "unfuckable losers" can attest to this. You know, I thought this sounded like bullshit. I couldn't quite believe that men were having that much more trouble having sex than women. Mostly because of my friend the guys are getting more than the women. I haven't had sex in 5 years. When I tried to join an incel support group the guys all told me that it dodn't count. That I probably could have sex if I just got plastic surgery or something. Not like them.Anyway, let's go to the numbers. http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#frequencyIf you look at the stats 90% of men and 86% of women had sex in the last year. So, the whole thing about how it's so much easier for women to get laid then men… bullshit. While there are more celibate single men than women in the 18-29 groups at 30 and older men have the advantage by a wide margine.Here's the rate of single men and women who reported no sex last year in the 18-24 groupM- 56.9 W-50.8OK, so more single celibate men than women in this age group, but not a HUGE difference in percentiles. Now, let's look at single men and women at age 30 who reported no sex in the previous year.M-39.6 W- 72.3 What do you know. That's MASSIVE. That's huge. That's a lot of women who are single and not getting any sex. And it's the group I fall into. Glad to know that I'm not alone.Look, it sucks when you're lonely against your will. I get it. I live it too. But that isn't the fault of women. It certainly isn't the fault of feminism. I have no idea why so many incel men blame feminism. What do you think things would have been like for you during the good old days?

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Well, we could also be assumed gay until proven innocent, and assaulted. Homophobia is (among other things) a manifestation of misogyny. Disgust towards men who could be so perverted as to assume the inferior feminine role of being penetrated during sex. Ergo, more feminism is the solution here. More equality and acceptance for masculine-identified women and feminine-identified men. More equality and acceptance for all sexual identities and gender identities. We could also be labeled a "creep" for not "getting laid," and be forced into a state of involuntary celibacy.If you are, in reality, a creep, then you should be labeled as such. Creeps don't get laid as much as nice people do. There's nothing any social equality movement can do about that. Patriarchy, on the other hand, does promise pussy to creeps as long as they conform to all the restrictive masculine stereotypes against which you chafe. You can choose one or the other–creepy patriarchal sexual coercion (ending the scourge of "involuntary celibacy" by substituting an epidemic of "involuntary sexual activity"), or sexual egalitarianism, wherein creeps don't get much sex.

iodineshuffle
9 years ago

>I also agree with most of Mr. String's list, and don't think he should have been told to go fuck himself. Most of the things he describes are due to an entrenched system that forces men and women into restrictive boxes based on their chromosomes. Feminists call this system patriarchy, and think that it hurts both sexes; MRAs deny that such a system exists. For every way that patriarchy damages women (women who have sex are sluts!) there is a mirrored negative effect for men (men who don't have sex are losers!). I, and most feminists, would love nothing more than to see a world where "men should be X while women should be Y" is an obsolete way of thinking. I just wish MRAs would work towards this, too.I do get a bit annoyed by the complaint that women only want to fuck rich men, and this is somehow due to feminism. In fact, feminists place less importance on their mate's income than do non-feminists.It also reminds me of the recent study showing that in in societies where income is distributed unequally, homicide rates are high and women are less empowered and educated, women prefer more masculine features in men. The authors say that such masculine features may be correlated with aggression and dominance. I wonder how this fits in with the MRA belief that feminism causes women to only want "thugs" instead of "nice guys." In fact, it seems the opposite- in countries with more gender equality, women prefer less aggressive men (at least as far as facial masculinity and dominance are correlated).

triplanetary
9 years ago

>What do you think things would have been like for you during the good old days?Back in the good old days women were obedient and submissive and didn't think they had a right to have standards. This was back before feminists invented the female orgasm.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Can I say how much I despise the idea that women have an easier time getting laid than men? Apart from the numbers cited above, it requires a woman to not have standards. True, I could go to any Star Trek convention and be reasonably assured that there will be men there who will be willing to fuck me. However, this completely ignores the idea that maybe I don't want to fuck *them*. I've met many, many men who could barely pull together enough of a hygiene regimen to shower once a week; men who were flat out physically unattractive and men who treated me like an utter object. If a man is treating me like an object when we're both clothed, I shudder to think about the sort of encounter I can look forward to in the bedroom. If he doesn't care about what I have to say in a conversation, he probably also doesn't care if I orgasm or not. Pro tip, guys: spend as much time on your personal appearance as you would like a potential sex partner to spend on hers. This includes time spent on grooming, cleanliness, attention to clothes and attention to physical attractiveness. Because we have as much a right to an attractive, capable partner as you do.

iodineshuffle
9 years ago

>I don't think some men understand that yes, most women, even "ugly" ones can put up an ad on Craigslist and find someone who wants to have sex with them. However, finding someone who a) they can feel safe with and b) cares about showing his partner a good time is likely to be very, very difficult.I mean, if there were a news story about an unattractive woman who put up an ad looking for sex and then got murdered by a guy who answered, dollars to doughnuts the MRA boards would be full of dudes cackling and making jokes about the "fat ugly slut" who was stupid enough to meet up with a "violent thug."

missyb9479
9 years ago

>David: did you see this?http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/03/13/a-tale-of-two-earthquakes/See, the response to the earthquake in Japan has been more orderly because they are led by manly men there. Haiti is matriarchial therefore is was chaos after the disaster.Yep, the fact that Japan is the #3 economy and Haiti is… not, well that doesn't matter. It's all about manly men being in charge.

keiko44
9 years ago

>"Can I say how much I despise the idea that women have an easier time getting laid than men?"I'd like to agree here and add to the statement. I would consider myself average looking. I do not go for "beautiful" men. I go for average looking guys, in the same socioeconomic class as me usually. Sometimes I *gasp* pick a guy who has a crappier money situation than I do. And no, they're not "thugs," they're unemployed and college educated like me. Plenty of those men still turn me down. Sometimes, no matter how evenly matched you are, a person just might not be in to you anyway.Then there are plenty of men who, no matter what, WANT that gorgeous supermodel. I would put most MRM men in this category. Constantly bitching about the beauty/money expectations women put on them, but then they won't accept any woman who isn't as gorgeous as Adrianna Lima. These are usually the guys that mock average looking women ruthlessly. Then fucking wonder why know one wants to fuck them. Must be hypergamous women! No asshole, it's because (when you HAD a girlfriend) you made a nasty comment about her boobs during sex and now she no longer wants you to see her naked for fear of getting critiqued again. @string"If you hate the MRM so much, who should answer for this?"The patriarchy. Not feminists. Not women. Not men. The patriarchy and its ridiculous "traditional" norms. I don't even blame the men and women upholding those beliefs, it's what was taught to them and it's hard to break cycles.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>A couple of posts were caught in the spam filter and are up now; it you've been following this discussion I'd recommend you scroll up and take a look. And just to add one more thought on the "men who can't get laid get mocked" complaint. SO DO WOMEN. And you know who loves to do this sort of mocking? MRA and MGTOW dudes who also complain about celibate men getting mocked. I couldn't even begin to estimate the number of posts and comments I've seen on manosphere blogs mocking fat women, women living alone with their cats, etc etc etc.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>I don't even blame the men and women upholding those beliefs, it's what was taught to them and it's hard to break cycles. Exactly. It's precisely parallel to other forms of bigotry. It's in our heads, all of our heads. It's part of our culture; you can't help but absorb a certain measure of it. That's why I no longer take it personally if someone tells me I said something racist. Instead of freaking out, "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME RACIST!!?!!11!! I AM A NICE PERSON!!1!" I stop, pause, reflect, and say something along the lines of, "I didn't intend it that way, but I can see how it sounded racist. I apologize, I'll try not to do it again." Good people are racist. Good people are sexist. Good people are homophobic, xenophobic, etc. Having bigotry doesn't make you a bad person, but becoming aware of your bigotry and deciding that you're not going to try to do anything about it–well, then you start to enter into the realm of the deliberate douchebag. But simply having bigoted thoughts or feelings doesn't say anything about your character. The question is, what are you going to do about those thoughts and feelings?

DrewskiDaMan
9 years ago

>Can I say how much I despise the idea that women have an easier time getting laid than men?Apart from the numbers cited above, it requires a woman to not have standards. True, I could go to any Star Trek convention and be reasonably assured that there will be men there who will be willing to fuck me. However, this completely ignores the idea that maybe I don't want to fuck *them*.But you fail to realize that your overly-inflated "standards" focused on media-driven ideals of the "perfect man" (i.e. ~ underwear model, Harvard MD, millionaire, etc.) are actually what is causing you to not be as happy with your life as what you might otherwise be (apparently, it's getting harder for you to attract those manly-sculpted-millionaire-studs that every other woman wants) if it were not for the overly-superficial societal norms to which you cling.Like I've read elsewhere – Most women will choose "Five Minutes of Alpha Over Five Years of Beta".A woman getting laid is not an accomplishment at all. It's like giving a dog a Presidential Medal of Honor because he can lick his own balls.

missyb9479
9 years ago

>Drew-Yep. Those superficial women always lusting after conventionally attractive men like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. And the stars of the past like Gable, Bogart, and Spencer Tracy were all muscle bound uber handsome men. (Hint: Women are attracted to men because of some intangible they posess that isn't just how they look or how much money they make. It's their personality. I know that MRAs hate hearing this because there is no product they can buy that will cause them to have an interesting personality. They would have to go become interesting people first. And it is hard to be interesting when your mind is nothing but the same talking points over and over again.)

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Actually, my standards, I think, are fairly reasonable. I want a guy who practices basic hygiene, has a good personality and treats me decently. I've dated men who were significantly overweight but were an absolute laugh riot to be around; I've dated men who made significantly less than I did, or were unemployed, but I enjoyed the way they made me feel both in bed and out. Let me put it a different way – for a guy, getting laid means getting to stick their penis in a woman. But for a woman, getting laid means something different. I'm not even talking about the ev/psych bullshit of wanting to find a mate. The truth is, no matter how attractive or rich a guy is, if he can't get me off, or acts like getting me off is an onerous chore, I'm not interested. Yeah, if all *I* wanted was to have a few minutes of penetration, I could get laid pretty easily. But there's absolutely no guarantee that encounter would be fulfilling for me. If I had to choose between a Calvin Klein model who could care less if I enjoyed myself or a 'beta' who was as invested in my pleasure as in his own, I'll pick the 'beta' every time and that's God's honest truth.

triplanetary
9 years ago

>But you fail to realize that your overly-inflated "standards" focused on media-driven ideals of the "perfect man" (i.e. ~ underwear model, Harvard MD, millionaire, etc.) are actually what is causing you to not be as happy with your life as what you might otherwise be (apparently, it's getting harder for you to attract those manly-sculpted-millionaire-studs that every other woman wants) if it were not for the overly-superficial societal norms to which you cling.Thank god you're here to mansplain to the poor women of Manboobz how to be happy.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>DrewskiDaMan: I have standards for people I fuck. I like feminists, Star Wars fans, long-haired men and large-breasted women, gamers*, scientists and artists, hopeless romantics, guys who like cuddles. Not to mention the obvious good hygiene, niceness to me and willingness to spend Saturday nights playing board games or going to Broadway shows. :)I do not, however, like underwear-model Harvard-MD millionaires. Almost everyone I fuck is broke (yay college!). I don't like guys with muscles (give me a skinny boy any day of the week). I have never fucked a Harvard student or an MD.My standards are not particularly unrealistic or media-driven. However, I still HAVE them. There is a middle ground between "Do you have a dick? We're good" and "I will only fuck Dr. Blue Eyes 6', PhD." And this ground is inhabited by girls who want someone who'll laugh when they make a Star Wars reference in bed. *Seriously, pnce you go gamer, you never go back. All the button-mashing lends itself well to a very different kind of button-mashing.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>@ Ozymandias:Not to mention, being able to bond over shooting zombies together! I absolutely adore dating gamers, though I tend to prefer larpers.

DarkSideCat
9 years ago

>Okay, let's go through string's list one by one:1. Women are more likely than men to be killed by intimate partners. Also, men's increased participation in gangs and the police force accounts for quite a bit of this discrepancy. Besides, women make up only a tiny minority of murders-the men who are being murdered are being murdered by other men, for the most part, not by women. So how is this women's fault?2. Women have higher rates of suicide attempts. Men have higher rates of sucess. This appears to be because of the difference in methods (men use more firearms-women use more pills, the latter generally leaves a wider window for rescue). Women are diagnosed with depression at higher, not lower rates.3. Not true if you include rapes and sexual assualts. And, again, women are not often the perps in assault cases with a male victim. Again, how is it automatically a woman's fault if a man beats a man?4. Yes and no. Women who cry in public are seen as weak, pathetic, and undeserving of respect. However, as people tend to attach such roles to women to begin with, women are given less attention when they conform. A man crying receives more negative feedback precisely because he starts in a higher position.5. True, but there is little evidence that this is due to discrimination rather than averages in biology (sex differences in life expectancy do not decrease greatly in a class where men do little to no physical labour).6. This is absolutely untrue. Two words-welfare mother. Poor women are an incredibly and brutally villainized group.7. The first part is untrue, the second somewhat true. It is not easier per se for a woman to get a good partner. Women's value does tend to be less related to earnings, however, the flip side is that women who earn high wages often face trouble here. In addition, the brutal beauty standards hit women much harder.8. Yes and no. Women are often discouraged from true friendships and are encouraged to tear each other down. Men's friendships are often praised and depicted positively. At the same time, physical intimacy does tend to be policed between men more than women. So, I will give you half credit on this one.9. True, but these risky jobs pay far higher wages than other jobs for people of comparable education and social class. Men have access to both lower paying service jobs and higher paying risk jobs like construction. So, yes, the injury rate is higher, but the pay is generally double or more, a financial option which women are not given.10. See 9.11. Actually, you have it reversed, if a woman enters fights, her social position and worth are considered diminished. So, while there is a standard here that hurts men, women are hurt just as much by the flipside. The old "men are strong" "women are weak" line is hardly the fault of feminism either.12. Yes, because people, including those on this forum, tend to see women's percieved "weakness" as a benefit all of the time (<-sarcasm).13. Not completely true. Virually all intersexed infants are assigned female and their genitals are far more severely mutilated than non-intersex male assigned infants. Besides, men dominate the medical field in massive degrees and male parents almost always have a say in this. So, while some women are complicit in circumcision, men are participating in doing this at higher rates, not lower ones. When men do things to men, it is always the fault of women, that's your theme, isn't it?14. This is extremely variable. It is not true at all for butch women or for women known to be queer. 15. Isn't this what you said in 14?

DarkSideCat
9 years ago

>16. Bullshit. Women are expected to hide and supress emotions, just not the same ones that men are expected to hide and supress. Check out how women expressing anger are viewed.17. True, but mainly because they are primarily the ones putting in the work, but still lack a lot of power decisions in many cases. This is not the case for families where men take a more active role in things like childrearing, my grandmother's uncle was considered the emotional and cultural center of his family, to the point where relatives passing as white returned to the reservation for his funeral. But this man loving raised six nieces and nephews. You want the rewards of being the caretaker, do some of the work. 18. Allowed? Try "forced". Try "forced with minute and ever varying detail that can be used to excuse severe violence against me if I fail to conform". Try "forced to wear shoes that break my feet and permantanly damage my body". Women who refuse are brutally punished, so this is hardly a privilege.19. No. Women are seen as less valuable for being these things, however, as they are presumed to be these things already, they face less punishment when seen doing them.20. True. I will grant you this one. But there is a whole corallary of extremely oppressive expectations around women and mothering that should be discussed before you declare that you have it worse.21. False. Women are punished extremely for failure to conform to their gender roles. Queer women, for one, report higher rates of abuse by people in positions of authority than even queer men. While there are feminist spaces, they are few and far between. Most women do not have an accepted space to defy their gender roles or discuss doing so.22. Somewhat true. Women who are sexually inactive are shamed ("frigid", "stuck up", etc.), but I would agree less so then men. However, women are punished for being sexually active in a degree so high as to make this amount laughable.23. False. Other commentors have dealt with this.24. True, but then women carry a massive burden of expectations of responsibility and work around children as well.

Ozymandias
9 years ago

>Victoria– True story: on our first "date," my boyfriend and I did a survival-horror oneshot RPG run by his roommate and he ended up feeding me to Cthulhu and a wolf at the same time.TRUE LOVE. And can you get this sort of story with Mr. Underwear Model Harvard MD Millionaire? No, you cannot.