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| The face (and torso) of evil. |
Certain kinds of stories are like catnip to the Men Going Their Own Way crowd: Stories about rich airheaded women. Stories about golddiggers and giant divorce settlements. Stories about idiotic or incompetent women. So it’s no surprise that the tale of Patricia Kluge and her not-so-successful foray into the world of winemaking has sent the fellows on MGTOWforums.com into full-on misogyny mode.
Kluge, you see, is the former wife of a media mogul, and her divorce settlement in 1990 netted her hefty alimony payments, which are variously claimed to have been either $1.6 million a week, or “less than $1 million a year.” The article linked to by the MGTOWers says she was rumored to have collected a settlement of a cool billion bucks and that the reported $1.6 million a week was just the interest on this vast sum. Who knows? It was a shitload of money. Plus a giant fucking mansion. Whatever the amount, Kluge has apparently blown through it all, spending huge amounts on ostentatious luxury crap and burning through tens of millions on her less-than-successful winery. Last month the bank repossessed her mansion.
So: this terrible woman was also a terrible businesswoman. Well, yeah. But to the fellows at MGTOWforums.com, her singular tale is a sign that women in general shouldn’t be trusted with money — or with anything else, for that matter. Chainlightning started off what turned into a veritable misogyny cascade by announcing:
Women should never have access to money. Look at what happened to the US since the 1960s.
Systems1082 saw Chainlightning’s “women shouldn’t have money” and raised him with “women shouldn’t have the right to vote.”
It actually goes back to 1920 when women were given the right to vote. They have learned they can vote themselves other people’s money.
Stonelifter took it even further, suggesting that some women don’t ever deserve the right to live:
i don’t understand why men don’t engage in more murder for hire
He followed this innocent little query up with a reference to the evil feminist Karl Marx and his followers at “some college in Berlin.”
it goes back to about 1870 so so when marx decided tearing down Western civilization was best achieved on many small fronts and women would be one of them. Cultural marxism was tied up into one neat package in some college in Berlin during the 1920’s but the idea to have women voting to fuck everything up came to marx at the tail end of his life
XTC pretty much trumped everyone by taking it back to the source: that bitch Eve.
It goes back to the garden of Eden when Eve screwed us all over.
So there you have it. Eve ate an apple, Patricia Kluge blew through money she didn’t really deserve to have. Therefore, women are evil.
Um, have you MGTOWers ever heard of Nicolas Cage?
(Note: Before you tell me that Nic Cage earned his money fair and square, I ask that you sit down and watch The Wicker Man, Ghost Rider, National Treasure, National Treasure: Book of Secrets, Face/Off, and Con Air. Then get back to me. I will allow that he did a pretty good job in Kick-Ass.)
(Note 2: By “some college in Berlin in the 1920s,” Stonelifter was of course referring to an assortment of Marxist theorists associated with a research institute that started in Frankfurt, not Berlin, in the 1920s, but which achieved its greatest influence after it moved to New York in the 1930s because of, you know, Hitler.)
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>I wish people who peddle fear about all those filthy radicals trying to destroy "Western civilization" would be a tad clearer about what "Western civilization" actually means. Democracy? Capitalism? Christianity? None of these are constants in the history of Western civilization.Of course, they're being deliberately vague. By holding up "Western civilization" as some unassailable good in itself they get to deflect attention from the fact that reasonable people can disagree about the pros and cons of things like democracy, socialism, and capitalism without being a threat to all of civilization.
>Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.A certain number of female airheads, golddiggers and incompetents are not only accounted for, but actually PREDICTED, under this theory.
>In my experience, "Western civilization" means "white people". This is why everything that is directly south of the US is usually not included, while Europe, Australia and South Africa are.
>Well, it's not like men are ever irresponsible with their money. I mean, you never hear about CEO's paying themselves ridiculous salaries while laying off the people that helped them succeed in the first place because the economy's bad, or alcoholics that waste the entire family budget on drinks instead of providing for the kids they helped produce, or lottery winners that end up on the streets a year later cause they blew all that money on a lifestyle they couldn't maintain, or if you do hear about people like that, they're almost NEVER male.Maybe because men are just better at math or something.
>That comment left out the "/sarcasm" I put at the bottom of it, but hopefully it wasn't necessary.
>Bernie Madoff lost 70 billion dollars that he did not earn. Therefore, the sensible conclusion is that we should ban men from voting or having money, and it's totally reasonable for women to murder them. Also this is all totally that dick Adam's fault.Wow, this game is fun!
>Funny, IME men are worse than money than women are. In most of the married couples I know, and in my own marriage, the wife is in charge of the couple's shared finances. Not because she's a castrating bitch but because someone has to make sure that the rent/mortgage gets paid and the power doesn't get cut off, and the men are not willing to take this on.I only do a middling job of this myself – I know we could theoretically save more and pay down our debt faster – but we did manage to buy a house as two freelancers in the middle of a recession, so I must be doing something right.But because some rich lady mismanaged her money and her business, I ought to lose the right to vote and get shot to boot. That makes sense.
>Worse WITH money, not worse THAN money. Dammit!
>I liked National Treasure 🙁 And yes, Kickass was awesome.
>@iodineshuffleI know, no wonder MRAs and MGTOWs play it so often! Time for the next round: Blame punk rock and/or sock monkeys for the failures of the United States public school system.
>I refer you to this.http://xkcd.com/385/
>Man, I was wondering when someone would bring up Eve… personally, I think the snake did us a favor. Enlightenment and knowledge? Hell, I'm glad Eve took the first bite! Eden was a prison and only seemed a paradise because Adam and Eve were too ignorant to tell the difference before the apple. It wasn't a fall or sin, it was uplifting and humans coming one step closer to gods. But that's the Gnostic in me speaking, I love the countercultural symbolism behind the Eden myth. I wonder if XTC knows that men have been blaming Eve and using that as justification for misogyny for several thousand years. It's time to get some new material, folks!
>No man has ever run a business into the ground. Read a book!
>I believe that men's activities were behind the Wall Street crash of 1929 – not to mention every one since then. They were busy gambling away tons of money that wasn't their own.Sheesh.
>@ Carswell:But they were only doing it to provide the women in their lives with a cushy lifestyle. So it's women's fault, again.
>Because it was my *sister* who squandered away 10s of thousands of dollars of their college money on toys and DVDs and wound up in massive debt they can't climb out of … Oh wait. I don't have a sister. Just a brother. Whoops. Meanwhile, as much as I want to eat a nice dinner out somewhere, I can't justify spending $20 on one meal. But I'm sure MRAs would spin my frugality as being a "penny pinching no-fun feminist." Because you're always damned if you do and damned if you don't when you're a woman. (I'm sure they'd even try to paint my brother's behavior as something positive. Because he has a penis.)
>choco,Obviously, your brother was just trying to impress gold-digging women, who then proceeded to cruelly ignore him in favor of alpha bad-boys. One can hardly blame him, really. Meanwhile, your refusal to spend a lot of money on yourself means that you would, of course, expect any man you date to pay for a lavish dinner, after which you will then sleep with the alpha bad-boy waiter while your hapless date washes dishes to pay for your meal. Oh yes, I'm on to you.Whee! This is fun!
>If you hate the MRM so much, who should answer for this?As a woman …1. I have a much lower chance of being murdered than a man.2. I have a much lower chance of being driven to successfully commit suicide than a man.3. I have a lower chance of being a victim of a violent assault than a man.4. I have probably been taught that it is acceptable to cry.5. I will probably live longer than the average man.6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise.7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man.8. I am given much greater latitude to form close, intimate friendships than a man is.9. My chance of suffering a work-related injury or illness is significantly lower than a man’s.10. My chance of being killed on the job is a tiny fraction of a man’s.11. If I shy away from fights, it is unlikely that this will damage my standing in my peer group or call into question my worthiness as a sex partner.12. I am not generally expected to be capable of violence. If I lack this capacity, this will generally not be seen as a damning personal deficiency.13. If I was born in North America since WWII, I can be almost certain that my genitals were not mutilated soon after birth, without anesthesia.14. If I attempt to hug a friend in joy, it’s much less likely that my friend will wonder about my sexuality or pull away in unease.15. If I seek a hug in solace from a close friend, I’ll have much less concern about how my friend will interpret the gesture or whether my worthiness as a member of my gender will be called into question.16. I generally am not compelled by the rules of my sex to wear emotional armor in interactions with most people.17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family.18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’.19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question.20. If I interact with other people’s children — particularly people I don’t know very well — I do not have to worry much about the interaction being misinterpreted.21. If I have trouble accommodating to some aspects of gender demands, I have a much greater chance than a man does of having a sympathetic audience to discuss the unreasonableness of the demand, and a much lower chance that this failure to accommodate will be seen as signifying my fundamental inadequacy as a member of my gender.22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man.24. My role in my child’s life is generally seen as more important than the child’s father’s role.
>TO the extent that these things are true, and a lot of them are, I can tell you who should NOT have to answer for these things: feminists. Indeed, feminists push for less rigid gender roles, which would make it easier for men to express emotions, be nonviolent, etc etc. As for women living longer than men, well, women used to die earlier because many of them dies in childbirth. Now that's less common, and women live longer. Should medical science "have to answer for this?" Or should we say, hey, it's great that women can live longer today, and let's continue working to lengthen the lives of both sexes however we can. Demanding "equality" here seems bizarre; men and women have different biology; why should we expect them to die at the exact same ages?
>Out of those 24, most of those are restrictions that men use to box themselves in, mostly the residue of patriarchal standards. Some of them are just invented, or easily circumvented, and thus don't constitute institutional discrimination. What's funny is that feminists want to break down many of the social standards given in your list. Do you think feminists want men to be expected to be capable of violence? Or to be unable to be soft?I think many MRAs have confused women who reinforce patriarchy with feminists simply because they believe anything that harms men is feminism. In actuality, any feminist worth their salt will tell you that patriarchy harms men as well as women.
>Mr. Long String of Alphanumeric Characters (can I call you String?), your claims are nothing more than a rehash of the usual arguments to the effect of "hey women, patriarchy protects you in these ways, so you should be grateful and accept the disempowerment that patriarchy wants to impose on you." Patriarchal men are all so convinced that women have it easy in patriarchy, and yet women have been fighting for hundreds of years and more to break free from the restraints of patriarchy.A lot of the items on your list are BS anyway, but the ones that are true are, as already stated in other comments, not the fault of feminism. Rigid gender roles hurt people of both genders, because they stifle individual freedom and self-determination. But rigid gender roles are the product of patriarchy.I do think one item on your list deserves special mention:22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.Sexually active women are frequently labelled sluts and whores at best, and beaten and raped at worst. A former girlfriend of mine made the "mistake" of having sex with me in her dorm room and proceeded to suffer horrible harassment for the rest of the semester. At one point she had to scare off a group of guys with a knife, which she actually had the training to use. In that regard she was luckier than many sexually active women.To claim that the mild ribbing that guys receive for abstaining from sex even slightly compares is inhuman and disgusting. Fuck you, String.
>Johnny said… "Out of those 24, most of those are restrictions that men use to box themselves in, mostly the residue of patriarchal standards." Are you blaming patriarchy or men? Methinks it's the latter.
>Are you blaming patriarchy or men? Methinks it's the latter.It's patriarchy that gets the blame, because it's not men alone who reinforce patriarchy. Women do it, too. Despite MRA perceptions of persecution, most women aren't feminists. Indeed most people don't think too deeply about these matters. Watch any given romantic comedy if you want to see modern America's general perception of gender issues. It's not overly thoughtful.And people who don't think too deeply about a given issue usually just fall in line with the status quo, which in the matter of gender issues is patriarchy.
>23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my attractiveness level than it is for a man.Oh please. That is utter nonsense.
>6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise.No, I'll only be judged on how I look compared to some impossible beauty standard. If I am too fat, too thin, have tits that are too small, have hair that is too thin, am too tall, am too short, etc. I'll just be told that I need to change in order to be worthy of love. An entire industry exists just to try and help women be more attractive so that they can be worthy of love. A dozen magazines every month tell women what they have to do to be pretty. Is there something similar for men who aren't of high enough status?7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man.As long as I'm attractive. Remember that. Only if I was born to meet the beauty standard. And if I happen to be a person of color then I get the extra issue of being considered unattractive because of my skin color. Look at the popularity of skin bleaching creams. Because women have to be fair and beautiful to be worthy. It's our bodies that matter, not our minds.18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’.Unless those clothes are too short. Or too low cut. Or too tight. Then I'm a slut and deserve to be shamed. And it my clothes are too baggy then I'm ugly and need to dress better to be seen as attractive.19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question.If I choose not to be those things then I'm told I'm a bitch or ball-buster. If I am naturally not these things then I am told I must change to fit those ideals. 17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family.This is not a good thing. My parents wouldn't pay for me to go to a school in another city because they "needed me". My brothers could do this without worry. They were encouraged to go off and see the world. I needed to stay close to home because I was the babysitter, petsitter, house cleaner, and caretaker. Why would somebody want these responsibilities placed on them without asking for them?22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.And I'm more likely to be shamed for being sexually active. Woo Hoo, normative gender issues are fun, aren't they?Feminists want to tear down these ideas. For both genders. The fact women are considered "less than" is the reason these ideas exist. When men show "feminine" traits like emotions they are mocked for being feminine, because being a woman is bad. When women show masculine traits they are shot down for being bitches or ball-busters. They are told that because they are only women they shouldn't try have masculine traits because that is above their station.If women and men were equals than there'd be no shame in a man acting like a woman or a woman being like a man. People could just be themselves. In other words, the answer to your problems is feminism!