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| Disdainful women: Not always feminists. |
Given how much of their time they spend attacking feminism and feminists, manosphere dudes can be surprisingly incompetent at telling just who is and who isn’t an actual, bona-fide feminist; they’ve got terrible fem-dar.
Case in point: Last Saturday, annoying social conservative polemicist Kay Hymowitz published a piece in the Wall Street Journal taken from her new book “Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys,” in which she argues that young men today have degenerated into puerile pre-adults, led astray by an assortment of villains including, but not limited to, Maxim magazine, Comedy Central, Seth Rogan and, if the subtitle of her book is any indication, rising women. You may vaguely remember her first rehearsing this general argument in a similarly annoying City Journal piece a couple of years ago called “Child-Man in the Promised Land.”
To point out a simple fact that should be evident to all but the most hardened manosphere misogynists: not everyone who says critical things about men is therefore a feminist. Indeed, many of those who say the worst things about men aren’t feminist at all.
And in fact, as should be very clear to anyone who actually sits down to read her work, Hymowitz is no feminist. If the reference to “the rise of women” as a villain in her book’s subtitle isn’t enough of a clue, let me point you to several of the many articles she’s written attacking feminism — for example, accusing feminists of ignoring the precious wisdom of Evolutionary Psychology, going “AWOL on Islam,” and just generally being “obsolete.”
But the basic fact of Hymowitz’ antifeminism seems not to have penetrated the consciousness of many of her critics in the manosphere, where her latest WSJ has produced a flurry of angry denunciations from dudes who take her stale tranditionalist bromides as the latest in evil feminazi-ism.
On Happy Bachelors she’s derided as a “typical second-wave hag feminazi.” On The Spearhead, one commenter dismisses her as “yet another smug, AA-promoted female token who can’t grasp what she and her feminist sisters have done to men.” On MGTOWforums.com, yet another misguided commenter snidely asserts that “Jewish feminists do not age well.”
Blogger Rex Patriarch, meanwhile, proclaims her op-ed to be a “a typical feminist rant about how wonderful women are and what disappointment men have become,” and accuses her of sour grapes:
That’s right ladies do us men a favor, go away and keep telling yourselves you don’t need any sour grapes.
You ladies are the ones that need to grow up and face reality. Wanting both the full benefits of feminism and marriage without any responsibilities is understandable. I would take that deal if I could get it too but since I can’t I exercise my natural right to not participate in the stacked deck you have to offer. That deal means jumping through the endless and ever increasing hoops of expectations it’s going to take to just get to the break even point in a sham marriage with an entitlement princess that western women have become.
Thanks but find some other sucker to be your jumping poodle, I will take video games instead.
As a fellow video gamer and something of an overgrown child-man myself, I’ve got nothing against anyone offering a good sensible critique of Hymowitz’ basic thesis; unfortunately, so far all I’ve seen on the topic from MRAs and MGTOWers have been little more than crude misogynist (and sometimes anti-Semitic) insults, most far cruder than the remarks I’ve quoted here.
But here’s a hint: you can’t really offer much of a critique if you start off assuming that she’s driven by an ideology she actually hates.
EDITED TO ADD: Speaking of good sensible critiques of Hymowitz, here are a couple from actual feminists. ECHIDNE of the snakes takes on Hymowitz’ “extreme definition of masculinity,” which seems to suggest that “Men can only be men if women remain girls.” Meanwhile, Jill at Feministe notes that life is not really much like Judd Apatow movies and makes the point that what Hymowitz derides as “extended adolescence” is in fact “an intelligent and fair reaction to a new economy and new gender models.”
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>At least according to one study, feminist women have a more positive view of men than non-feminist women. Seeing as how feminism is all about men and women just being equally-valuable people, rather than radically different species, it makes a lot of sense.
>But, Dave, you just don't get it. Everything bad in modern life is the result of feminism. This woman is saying bad things about men. Ergo, she is a feminist. That's why it's perfectly plausible, according to this line of thinking, that Islam is behind feminism (or feminism is behind Islam, I keep getting it mixed up). Feminism is bad. Islam is bad. Therefore, they must be in league somehow. Because, you know, the bad guys all side with each other against the Superfriends, or something.(Except that the Superfriends are all manginas because they let Wonder Woman hang out with them–affirmative action at its worst, I tells ya.)
>What struck me about this article is that the author didn't seem to bother offering any sort of solution. Her article was just complaining without any idea of how to fix what she sees as a problem. Although perhaps the solution is in her book – I haven't read it, and I probably won't. Does she come up with any ideas?
>:::the Superfriends are all manginas because they let Wonder Woman hang out with them:::I'm seeing another t-shirt here.
>MRAs have no idea what feminism actually is, so they can hardly be expected to identify a feminist. In their minds, feminism is just hatred of men, so any woman who says something negative about men must be a feminist.At least according to one study, feminist women have a more positive view of men than non-feminist women.Yep, and this is borne out by my personal experience and that of many, many people I've spoken to and read.Seriously, go eavesdrop on a group of conservative women bitching about their husbands. Before your ears start bleeding and you bite down on your cyanide tablet, you'll probably here plenty of comments about how men are simple-minded, don't understand complex emotions, only think about sex, and have to be prodded and/or manipulated into doing housework. In their defense, this may be true about the bulk of conservative men.But that sort of generalized man-bashing is rarely seen on that level amongst genuine feminists. That's one reason I only date feminists (far from the only reason, but it is nice to have a girlfriend who doesn't act obnoxiously shocked every time I remember our anniversary or ask for directions).
>"she argues that young men today have degenerated into puerile pre-adults, led astray by an assortment of villains"Her observations are basically correct. But, like many women, she gets cause-effect mixed up.Men did not become infantile because women rose.The women rose because the men had become infantile.http://seanmaccloud.blogspot.com/2009/11/alpha-beta-gamma-omega-dynamic.html
>But that sort of generalized man-bashing is rarely seen on that level amongst genuine feminists. That's one reason I only date feminists (far from the only reason, but it is nice to have a girlfriend who doesn't act obnoxiously shocked every time I remember our anniversary or ask for directions). QFT. Your experience is similar to mine. Feminist women are less likely to have the same seething resentment as women who have bought into traditional gender roles–less cognitive dissonance, for one. I've also found feminist women to be generally more amenable to the idea that sexism and patriarchal attitudes hurt men as well as women (though not equally nor in the same way, to be sure). Sometimes I think our MRA friends' only exposure to feminism was accidentally walking past a Women's Studies class in college. The thought of so many women in one place has given them nightmares ever since.
>:::the Superfriends are all manginas because they let Wonder Woman hang out with them:::Of course, Wonder Woman is probably into alpha male bad boys. She'd never go out with Aquaman, even though he's sensitive and likes marine animals. Typical.
>"Thanks but find some other sucker to be your jumping poodle, I will take video games instead."Aw come on WHY!? Why must you infest the spaces which I love!? As if we needed more misogynists mucking up video games! "Indeed, many of those who say the worst things about men aren't feminist at all. "Yes, this so much. Every time they complain about "cupcakes" or "entitled princesses" all I can think about are the many Conservative Republican woman that I've met over the years. The first people to call men simple-minded or want money from them have been those women. They are sooo far from feminist. If you tried calling them a feminist they'd probably slap you.
>Why isn't this comment thread 90 comments long and about divorce and performance art?
>Why isn't this comment thread 90 comments long and about divorce and performance art?LOL!! Give it time… Richard and wytch might not have found it yet…
>Richard is still trying to calm down probably from my pointing out he needs to pay taxes to unwed mothers to ensure that someone is still alive to wipe his bum when he gets old.
>CB: Everyone knows that Wonder Woman was a lesbian bondage enthusiast. (And, as these pictures show, she was a switch.) http://www.castlekeys.com/Pages/wonder.html
>Feministe covered Hymowitz's article. Jill (the author of that post) and the commenters were, shall we say, less than thrilled.
>For these guys, all women are feminists and are plotting against them.
>More on Wonder Woman and the polyamorist bondage enthusiast who created her:http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=7921(Note: MRAs and MGTOWers should not read this article as it might make their heads explode.)
>CB: Everyone knows that Wonder Woman was a lesbian bondage enthusiast. (And, as these pictures show, she was a switch.)http://www.castlekeys.com/Pages/wonder.html Wow. Just wow. From William Marston, the creator of Wonder Woman:Wonder Woman is psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who should, I believe, rule the world. There isn't love enough in the male organism to run this planet peacefully. Woman's body contains twice as many love generating organs and endocrine mechanisms as the male. What woman lacks is the dominance or self assertive power to put over and enforce her love desires. I have given Wonder Woman this dominant force but have kept her loving, tender, maternal and feminine in every other way.Marston is the original mangina! OMG, it's all true! That's it, I'm off to The Spearhead.
>Marston also invented an early version of the polygraph machine. He was a pretty interesting character.
>I don't look to activist, self-defined feminists to tell me who is or is not a feminist. For instance, when Naomi Wolf said some comments about Julian Assange and the purported rape situation, Ms. Wolf went from feminist icon to pariah. If you spend any time on the women oriented reddits, as David does, then he very well knows that any criticism of feminism stupidity is met with the argument that feminism is not monolithic. In fact, it is supposedly so diverse as to remove any real definition from the word. Whether Kay Hymowitz is a feminist is not for Mr. Futrelle to decide. If Ms. Hymowitz believes in equality of the sexes, doesn't that make her a feminist under modern orthodoxy? If it doesn't, then one's belief in equality is not enough, and actions speak louder than words – which is a dangerous double edged sword for self-defined feminists.
>If Ms. Hymowitz believes in equality of the sexes, doesn't that make her a feminist under modern orthodoxy?Is there any evidence that this is, in fact, what Hymowitz believes?
>Of course actions speak louder than words. Otherwise, we have to take Sarah Palin at her word that she's a feminist, and she's most certainly not.
>Also, if a feminist is anyone who believes in equality between the sexes, and MRAs, etc. are against feminism, then it really is true that the MRM is just a thinly veiled excuse for good old fashioned male chauvinism. Who'd a thunk it?
>magdalyn, I'm not the one who has "decided" that Kay Hymowitz isn't a feminist. She doesn't describe herself as a feminist, she devotes a lot of energy to attacking feminists, and, indeed, in one of the pieces of hers I linked to she declares that "Feminism is not simply suffering from a P.R. problem. It's just over. As in finished." So, yeah, not a feminist.
>Hmmm…this little gem was on the Huff Post today from Phyllis Schlafly: "it would have taken away a lot of the rights and benefits women then possessed such as the right to be exempt from the military and the right of a wife to be supported by her husband."
>I don't know if some of the MRAs who frequent this blog know who she is, Elizabeth, even though I have posted a comment about her (including a quote from her that is similar to what you have quoted) in the comments section of at least two, if not more, articles on this blog. And they accuse feminists of being willfully obtuse….