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| Feminist Training Camp |
There’s only really one rule to follow if you want to get upvoted on The Spearhead: make sure you say something hateful about women! If you follow this rule, you can say almost anything you want, no matter how completely batshit insane it is, and still get a couple of dozen upvotes. Works every time!
Consider, for example, this peculiar wisdom from one fellow calling himself Anonymous age 68, taken from a long, rambling comment that, the last time I checked, had 35 upvotes and only 11 downvotes. Take it away, you lovable old kook:
For 45 years, the man-haters who run this country have been saying privately they want to kill most men. I read MS. in the 80?s, and it was there. In recent years, they have shushed the stupids who have been saying it publicly, but you can be sure they are privately saying, “NOT YET, STUPID!” …
Killing large numbers of men is the only one of the original feminist goals which has not yet been achieved. And, all the other things they have done to men were directly or indirectly in the original lists.
I subscribed to MS magazine in the 70?s and 80?s, until my stomach would not take it any more. They told right out in there, their original goals. The world cannot be safe until most men are terminated.
I tried to tell other men, who treated me like s**t. “Why do you worry about things like that? This is the USA, and nothing like that will ever happen. …”
Exactly what the Jew leaders told worried Jews in the 20th Century.That worked out real well.
Just in case you didn’t subscribe to Ms. in the 70s and 80s, and you’re wondering what the other original feminist goals were, here’s the whole list:
1) Buy comfortable shoes
2) Create Lilith Fair
3) Kill men.
4) ???
5) Profit!
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>It's a bit like pontificating about astrophysics without ever having heard of, I dunno, Uranus. There are so many places I could go with that remark, I don't even know where to begin. I thank you, Dave, for this bounty of cheap, immature laughs I am about to enjoy.(Huhuhuhuhuhuhuh! He said Uranus! Heheheheh!)Oh my, that was good.
>Face it David, extreme misandrists in the feminist movement have reached fame from the cause of feminist supporters. And this takes a lot more supporters than a small pack of MRAs upvoting misogyny in websites.There is no ignorance at all about that. There may be dirty players in the MRA movement but feminism is no better. In fact, probably a lot worse. In your world, women and feminist can never do wrong and you will always try to find some type of justification for their shitty behaviour. Yet when it’s a man or MRA, I have never ever seen you try to justify or defend similar behaviour. It’s because you are a feminist bigot, David. It’s so god damn obvious. You can deny it all you want but I know and I think many others can clearly see it
>@KratchDude, your logic is bent. "Just because something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it doesn't exist" doesn’t actually make sense. Also, if you’re going to dismiss all the work of an academic you’ve obviously never read, please at least Google her first so that you spell her name correctly: Dworkin.
>Face it David, extreme misandrists in the feminist movement have reached fame from the cause of feminist supporters. And this takes a lot more supporters than a small pack of MRAs upvoting misogyny in websites.I'll agree with you that Andrea Dworkin is a famous woman – but 'fame' doesn't necessarily mean someone who is admired, respected or looked to as a mentor. After all, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Justin Bieber are all famous – but who looks to those guys to set any kind of policy?If anything, Dworkin's fame comes because she has been criticized far more than she has been praised. Discussions of her ideas tend more towards, 'Holy crap, can you believe someone really thinks this way?' and less of, 'Holy crap, this is some insightful writing.'
>David, I think you owe me an apology. I have repeatedly stated that I live in Canada, and it seems to me, based on the two links bellow, that MS isn't sold (directly) in Canada. So it seems to me you just called me ignorant for not being in the same country as you… The first link is a list of top Magazines available in Canada, and MS isn't on the list…http://www.rogersmagazineservice.com/rms/servlet/rms/azindexThe following lists it as a national, not international, magazine…http://www.acclaimsubscriptions.com/canada/catalog/viewItem/?pageid=21060100031&prdid=1113So are you still prepared to hold me up as ignorant for living in the wrong country? Is that how you act? Seems to me you're being the ignorant one. not to mention you're deflecting, attacking my credibility rather then owning the fact that you are even more incapable of doing what you damn MRA's for not doing… and I say more incapable because I have repeatedly given you an easy way to disagree with your posters without specifically calling them out without reason (IE, what you expect of MRA's).bathorie, not sure how you read that from my post, so I'll just ignore you. (unless and until you explain)
>I'd seriously like to know in what way eve ensler is radical considering the fact that all she wants is for women to realize that their vaginas are not evil and dirty.
>"I'll agree with you that Andrea Dworkin is a famous woman – but 'fame' doesn't necessarily mean someone who is admired,"She's as revered as she is reviled. She inspires a great deal of controversy, but she does so because there are many that agree with her ideals (to go with those that don't). You don't get 10+ books published, and calls for presentations or to testify in supreme courts, for being perceived as akin to Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Justin Bieber. Furthermore, her legacy remains, in such PSA's as Josh's "redefine manhood to stop rape". A PSA that tells us that there is something inherent about the current definition of manhood that encourages rape. That that instinct to rape must be trained out of our sons right from the cradle. (sounds like an idea stemmed from the sex is rape mentality she was so well known for… because I will agree that men want sex, but unless sex = rape, that isn't enough to justify the attack from that ad and others like it).That said, I do acknowledge that she is at the radical end of feminism, but she remains a prominent figure at that end, and it is my opinion that many of the prominent feminist activists and politician's are closer to her end of the spectrum then they are to the average household feminist that truly believes they believe in equality, but doesn't actually do anything.
>All this fake bullshit about Andrea Dworkin being some sort of outlier for feminists is just that, bullshit. She's not even really a radical, not for feminsts. She's mainstream and they love her.Try this. Go to yahoo.com. Type in national organization for women. In the search bar print Andrea Dworkin. And you get this:In Memoriam: Andrea DworkinApril 13, 2005 Andrea Dworkin, internationally renowned radical feminist activist and author who helped break the silence around violence against women, died in her home on April 9 at the age of fifty-eight, after an illness. She was a longtime member of NOW.Dworkin was one of feminism's most rigorous minds and fiercest crusaders. In her determination to articulate the experiences of poor, lower-class, marginal, and prostituted women, Dworkin deepened public awareness of rape, battery, pornography, and prostitution. Called "the eloquent feminist" by syndicated columnist Ellen Goodman, Dworkin's impassioned words always informed, provoked and inspired.Visit the Stop Family Violence web site to learn more about Dworkin's life, read her inspiring remarks spoken just one week ago, and to leave your words of tribute or expressions of condolence. Stop Family Violence will forward your comments to her husband, John Stoltenberg.********************************************Rigorous mind? Eloquent feminist?Fiercest crusader?Inspiring remarks?Yeah that NOW organization really despises her. They are so critical of her. I wish there was a hell so she could rest in an appropriate place.Random Brother
>@ brigetShe also tried to teach that lesbians seducing underaged girls is "good rape."But she's a sister feminut so I'm sure that doesn't bother you.Random Brother
>@ DavidDavid said: "Most feminists I know are perfectly willing to criticize other feminists they disagree with."I doubt you have the moral fortitude to criticize any major feminist tenet in any legitimate way shape or form.Random Brother
>Yeah… I was a fetus in the 1970s, but I've been reading some Ms. magazine stuff from that period, and I haven't yet uncovered any of those articles in favor of mass-murdering men. Must be wedged in somewhere between the hand-wringing letters about whether feminists can be into BDSM and the twenty million articles about trying to pass the ERA.I am also interested to learn that man-haters have been running the country since 1966. Well, that was the year John met Yoko.P.S. HOLY SHIT IT'S THE PERFECT PRINCESSES THING AGAIN WILL YOU GUYS GET A NEW INSULT ALREADY
>Kratch said:"She's as revered as she is reviled. She inspires a great deal of controversy, but she does so because there are many that agree with her ideals (to go with those that don't). You don't get 10+ books published, and calls for presentations or to testify in supreme courts, for being perceived as akin to Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Justin Bieber."Precisely!I couldn't have said it better myself. I wanted to say something similar to Lady Victoria before but I felt a lazy before.But anyway, just watch the feminists in here who will try to make up any excuse in the world for it. Feminist bigots like David will always try to make some type of justification for it. Yet jump up and down and make threads about it when it’s MRAs being sexist.
>Kratch- For one, Ms. magazine was never conspiracy feminist literature spreading the message to “kill men”, hence the absurdity of Anon 68. Despite that, you are willing to consider that there is feminist writing doing exactly that, despite no evidence of it having been said. And your willingness to consider it is based on the character and academic work of Dworkin, who never wrote “kill men” in any of her books. That seriously does not make any sense. It's pure fantasy. Also, I live in Canada too, and Ms. Magazine is in the magazine rack of my local Chapters- it’s considered an import here. You can also probably find it in your public library, if you look.
>Sigh. Try some of the links here to learn about the history of feminists challenging Dworkin/MacKinnon and anti-porn feminism:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Warshttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_v19/ai_5010445/http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/lesbian_sex_wars.htmlThe feminist sex wars sort of reached their crescendo in the mid-90s. (Richard: Back then I got hate mail from some radical feminists for publishing numerous articles challenging anti-porn feminism.) In the end, the anti-porn feminists basically lost. Most feminists you'll meet these days have rejected radical feminism. Yes, there still are some radical feminists around. Yes, there are still feminists who think mostly positive things about Dworkin. NOW is an organization that came out of second-wave feminism, and some of its founders and elder stateswomen, as it were, came out of the radical feminism of the early 70s, so I'm not shocked that they ran such a eulogy for her. As for Goodman's comment about her being "eloquent," well, she WAS eloquent. I think she was wrong about nearly everything, but she knew how to write a polemic. Kratch, living in Canada is really no excuse for not having heard of Ms, at least if you claim to know something about feminism. It's basically the most famous feminist magazine ever, and if you don;t know about it, you really don't know shit about feminism.
>And within that same comment page, this ultra-inflammatory comment has received 21 downvotes and 1 upvote so far:"So who took this forum down? And why did the police come to Welmer’s house? What did he do? Just curious."
>In fact, you have actively made excuses to justify their hateful sayings, or brush them off as "a joke", such as "rape is a natural response to seeing an attractive woman".If I'm not mistaken, that particular comment was made in response to one of the MGTOW forum comments where the guy was pretty much saying exactly that. I don't have enough time at the moment to seek out that particular thread, but if I have a chance later this afternoon or this evening, I'll go back and have a look for it.I've often heard and read men defending, for example, porn usage or drive-by cat-calling behaviour, by shrugging it off as, "Hey, we can't help it, it's in our genes/biology". Yet if a woman repeats what men themselves have said about themselves, it's suddenly vile misandry.
>Pam, I believe that was a quote from Amused that was part of a post summarizing an assortment of contradictory MGTOW arguments about male sexuality, of which that was one; it was clearly not Amused's own opinion.
>You may be right about that one, David, I recall seeing it I just can't remember within which comment thread, but it was clear to me that the author was reflecting upon the statement(s) of other(s).Time to head to the airport now (business trip, unfortunately, not pleasure trip).
>.Richard said:"She also tried to teach that lesbians seducing underaged girls is "good rape."The quote you stated is from the original Vagina Monologues. I do not believeDworkin was involved in the writing of that play. Speaking of the Vagina Monologues as someone who attends the theater, fringe fests, etc I’ve always wondered why there is so little understanding of alternative performance art in America (actually I don’t wonder). Hopefully I can explain it to you. The Vagina Monologues consisted of narratives of women’s personal experiences with their bodies. One of the narratives was from a lesbian who had sex with an adult woman as a teen, she spoke about how she felt about the relationship. “Good rape” meant that although it would be considered to be statutory rape it she considered it to be a positive experience. As the Vagina Monologues gained in popularity this monologue was taken out of the production because of in my opinion puritan views of teen sex that is rampant in North America. I once attended a performance art piece, which the artist (a guy) stripped down and masturbated while being dosed with milk, makes the VM look pretty tame in comparison. Because his performance stayed within the art community the undertones of what seemed to be an Oedipus complex did not make national news.
>@ KaveKave said: "I once attended a performance art piece, which the artist (a guy) stripped down and masturbated while being dosed with milk, makes the VM look pretty tame in comparison."Are all "male feminists" a bunch of weirdos?Random Brother
>RichardAre you unable to comprehend? You should get that checked.
>Of course not one mention of your error in attributing your quote to the wrong person.Richard.. Has anyone in you life taught you personal responsibility? Do you have any positive male role models? It seems like no one has taught you how to start taking on adult responsibilities. Are you attending one of those party hard liberal colleagues that parents pay too much for and perhaps striking out on the party deal? That’s the only thing I can imagine.
>Kave said:"Do you have any positive male role models? It seems like no one has taught you how to start taking on adult responsibilities." Good question. We live in a society these days where boys get their fathers stripped away from them due to anti father discrimination in family court and oppressive mothers who simply deny access.Then in media these days, most fathers are usually depicted as incompetent, stupid, lazy, beer drinking yobbos, abusers, rapists, chauvinists.Yep, boys are grown up with great male role models these days.But of course feminists won't see this as a problem, in fact they will likely try to twist it around and claim its not anti- male oppression or every thing is the menz fault.But if it was females facing this very thing, feminists would be screaming oppression, evil men waaah waaah waahh…let's find more excuses to demonise men.
>Nick I guess the answer is no.I also asked if you have ever learned about personal responsibility. I'm also going to take a leap and say that is a no as well. You also need to stop pretending that the evil is feminist, and start coming to terms with the fact that you hate women.
>actually richard if you were to read what she has said about that particular monologue it was that writing it made her extremely uncomfortable. She was reporting the words that someone else said in that particular monologue. Frankly, I personally am not comfortable with what happened either. However, that does not mean that that particular woman feels that what happened to her was rape. Since the girl in that monologue had been assaulted before I think that it is pretty safe to say she knew what her own experiences were. Just because the vagina monologues makes you uncomfortable because it talks about a body part which you find disgusting does not mean that there is anything inherently wrong with it