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| Non-haters also gonna hate. |
The “Rant you very much” section of NiceGuy’s MGTOW [Men Going Their Own Way] forum is the place for commenters to post stuff that they think might be too crazy and “out there” for the forum’s other sections. Given what else is posted over on NiceGuy’s — the stomping ground of a fellow named Nightstorm and his wild fantasies of moustrap vaginas and leech women — this is a tall order indeed.
NiceGuy richbansha tried his best to live up to these high expectations with a recent rant titled “Why not hate?” Why bother to pretend that we don’t hate women, rich asks his fellow NiceGuys, when this won’t actually do us any good? As for him, he admits his hatred up front. (I’ve taken the liberty of bolding some expecially ranty bits in the quote below, and adding a paragraph break.)
Do I “hate women”? You bet your ass! …
[T]he most common reason why one of us will deny the possibility that we hate them is not not look bad. Is there any doubt that they don’t hate YOU or that those listening in wouldn’t just as soon see you violated? … No matter what you do, you can still expect the most inconscionable treatment at the hands of AW [American Women]. If the response to both kindness and cruelty are identical, what is the reason for such a lopsided favoritism for appeasement?
When saying that you want to rape and cut up a woman with a band saw is met with the exact same reaction as saying you want to want to buy them a drink, what … is the incentive to not be hateful and violent? We have seen for ourselves that refraining only makes you are more likely target for hatred and violence. … So when a stinking cavern gets out of hand why not pulp her? You know you want to. Does anyone really think that stopping yourself or saying you would stop yourself will make it any easier on you?
In a followup post, he blames it all on the alleged tendency of women to adore “bad boys” and treat kind, considerate nice guys — richbansha apparently thinks he is, or at least was, one of them — like dirt:
My fate was decided in 7th grade when that girl said I had cooties. … If you ever got a “P” in the box on your report card that says “Respects the rights of others” then you are a marked man. …
I have suffered far more for the things that I had nothing to do with than any active and intentional infraction that I ever committed. … Who do skanks even call the cops on? Violent meth dealer Bf who routinely beats her and impregnates her or the honest, hardworking auditor who pays for the meth dealer’s offspring? Is it any wonder that I think dudes should get on the good side of that equation?
The “good side,” of course, being the side of of the girlfriend-beating “bad-boy” meth dealer.
So, yeah, that’s what a rant on NiceGuy’s looks like.
More interesting to me than the actual rant, though, are the responses of others in the forum. TheDude suggested he tone it down a bit:
So you think that violence may be the answer when there are thousands of cops who would love to beat your ass because you “disrespected a lady?” I think talking about it on this board just makes us a target and it is bad advice.
In other words, the voice of reason in this discussion frames his advice in entirely self-interested terms: Don’t attack women because then cops will beat your ass. Don’t talk like this on the forum, because it makes MGTOW look bad.
And then there are those who chime in to say they didn’t hate women … but. There is always a “but.” A couple of the “buts” are fairly mild and inoffensive. the american, echoing the famous Dr. Freud, notes
I don’t hate women. I just don’t understand their thought processes.
Our friend Yohan goes a little further (bold in original):
I am not hateful or violent, but I am highly MISTRUSTING against all and everything a Western female will ever tell me.
It’s not only about my past, it’s about the present legal situation in feminist countries, which encourages females of any age to consider men of any age, even young boys and old people, even your own father as nothing but trash except for quick money supply.
About hate, it should be said, hate is really bad for your health cousing heart problems, stomach problems etc..
And then there are … these. Richard Cranium blames those evil Sufragettes (and the manginas who loved them) for it all:
It’s not a matter of hating women per se, it’s hating what they’ve become, or more specifically what manginas have let them become. As has been stated here & elsewhere, the day we let them out of the kitchen and let them vote was the day it all went to hell.
Big R takes his non-hatred to a whole other level:
I dont hate them either. I want them to live to see how lonely and suicidal they,ll become when they find out all the men have dumped them forever in the feminized world. I want them to live and suffer without men or the attention they receive from us. …
I have turned out just a little vengeful towards women for the treatment I have received from them throughout my life. Just seeing an AW maybe lying on the sidewalk after a drunken suicidal depressive drinking binge after being dumped and cheated on would brighten up my day.
Our friend Yohan obliged this last wish by posting a photo of a drunk woman lying on the floor in what appears to be a pool of her own urine, with a friendly little note advising Big R to “have a nice day.”
So very considerate, these Men Going Their Own Way.
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>Kave said… The cold blooded killer did not have choices?MRAs do not support criminals regardless if they are men or women. That's not our responsibility if such a person is spending a good part of his/her life in jail. We do not consider such people as 'victims'.However we demand same punishment for same crime regardless to gender. Feminists do not like that.By the feminist narrow mindset, ALL women MUST be considered as 'victims'.What will you say, if the 'cold blooded killer' is a woman, who is claiming 'abuse' and was killing her husband with some bullets while he was sleeping?
>YohanAgain you did not understand the question. Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them. Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that. As for mra's not supporting cold blooded killers I'd say they are of a mixed mindset . Marc Lepine day?
>Kave said… From your posts I've gotten that you are happily married with a good family life.And that you were teased in school and the girls didn't like you.MAYBE it might be time to focus on the now and get over what happened in junior high? Good family life, yes, but only after becoming an expat, moving abroad and looking for a foreign wife. – This already makes me an eternal loser in the eyes of feminism.What you mention is only a tiny part out of my experiences how I was treated by Western women in the past.I see no reason, why I should not share my experiences with other MRAs over the internet.We need a strong Men's Rights Movement to teach other men and to help them to avoid serious mistakes in their future.Why should I be silent? Because feminists are telling me it's not politically correct to talk about such issues?Women have their advocacy groups and many of them are using public funds, gays have them, too, even animals have them (PETA) – and why should straight men not operate their own advocacy groups? FYI, we finance our advocacy groups out of our own wallet.
>Yohan,Your theory advances that beta males can't also be pussy magnets. My theory advances that this is not true; however, my theory does not suggest that bad boys can't also be pussy magnets. Therefore, I don't need to accommodate your anecdotes; my theory already does. Some ladies want to fuck men who are behind bars. You, however, have advanced the theory that beta males are not popular with the ladies. How do you accommodate those that are?If you want to say they're statistical outliers, that's fine, but then we need to move out of the realm of anecdote. If anecdotes suffice–and five articles about ladies who want to fuck dudes behind bars is a collection of anecdotes, not a research project–then you must be able to accommodate contrary anecdotes.
>As for mra's not supporting cold blooded killers I'd say they are of a mixed mindset . Marc Lepine day? We do not, just the opposite, ask David, who is lurking with a fake-ID in our forums. Our advice is to pack your things and to move away as quick as possible to avoid troubles as a man if you face family problems.What about female killers?Do you not feel sorry for them?http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1585801.php/Police-hunt-motive-after-German-woman-s-killing-spree-RoundupMany females are rather supportive not only to criminal women, but also to criminal men as well, otherwise they would not approach them for a personal relationship while they are serving their sentence in a prison cell.
>Okay, RS? Could you please not use the term 'beta' to describe generally decent guys, or ones who are not high up in a power hierarchy?It's really off-putting, in part because it buys into MRA language and puts a pseudo-scientific gloss on categorizing people as though they were in a pack structure. Too, the term 'beta' has a lot of negative connotations about submissiveness, which doesn't do anyone any favours.
>YohanAgain you did not understand the question. Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them. Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that.Yes or no Yohan… stop picking and choosing.
>Kave said… YohanAgain you did not understand the question. Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded killer or a woman that has a crush on them. Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that@KaveAgain you did not understand the question. Point blank, is it worse to be a cold blooded female killer or a MAN that has a crush on them. Can you answer yes or no? Try doing that.A FEMALE killer is considered to be a victim by feminists, is a MAN that has a crush on them also considered to be a victim by feminists?What do you think?
>Benjamin: Their framework doesn't even make sense within their framework. Critiques of the fact the framework is crap are fine ( actually, important), but I think it can also be important to attack the framework from its own terms, which are effectively incoherent. I'm a fan of multiple, coexisting strategies. And while I'm pursuing that line of argument, yes, I'm going to use their terminology. It's not like I'm using the phrase "pussy magnet" unironically.Does the category beta male exist a reifiable social group? No, or at least I'm not aware of any research suggesting it does. But MRAs have defined what they consider to be a phenomenon and made claims about it. When those claims are backed into logical corners, what will Yohan do?My guess–continue to ignore the points at which his logic has been shown to be poor, instead favoring unsubstantiable assertions, e.g. "a FEMALE killer is considered to be a victim by feminists."Relatedly, I would appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about my relationship to terminology, sexual preferences, or the politics of alternate sexualities.
>Argh, it would be convenient if the commenting system would let me use my feminist-blogosphere name instead of my sf/f author name. Oh well.–Mandolin from Alas
>You can't parody this shit.
>Futrelle, if you're intellectually honest, you would link to the equivalent in the feminist blogosphere.There is a very popular feminist blog called "rage against the man-chine" with 2 very popular posts called "why I hate men 1" and "why I hate men 2"…It would be intellectually dishonest to say that she (and her followers) represent all of feminism, right? I get the sense above that you're using this fruit-cake to label the entire manosphere, and I don't think that's fair.
>"But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? If we accept that American women are into hypergamy, then what's up? "This wasn't invented by the MRA-s, but by scientific research into human sexuality.Studies on numbers of sexual partners and mating success find this hyper-gamy pattern over and over and over again. Its not even debatable or a subtle effect.My favorite is a study that showed that women find "70% of men to be very below average". Ignore for a second that this is mathematically impossible… but there's a very strong filter in women to always find the majority of men to be "unworthy". In other words, if 70% of men were donald trumps, and 30% were Brad Pitts… then women would find the donald trumps to be "losers" not worth even giving any of your time.@your example of the nice, shy partner who got laid like mad… I find it odd that the only such examples we ever hear is from feminists on blog discussions. We never hear these examples pointed out in real life.I think one reason is that if women made this point to you in real life, they'd have to introduce you to the guy whom they claim this amazing feat about.The very claim that a shy guy is getting laid like mad is an oxymoron, for the simple reason that by definition, him being shy, he can not initiate anything with women. And women do not tend to initiate with men. I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex… etc. Oddly, the only such stories we hear about are on feminist blogs, which can't be reproduce in real life.
>Yohan:In my earlier comment, I was purely presenting a metaphorical example of what is wrong with your debating style. I am not claiming that any such conversation actually took place. To keep it grounded in reality, as flights of fancy are clearly not to your taste. What happens when you join a debate is this. An MRA makes a hugely disturbing comment betraying not only fanatical loathing of women – but also, very probably, severe and enduring mental health issues.David will then post it on this esteemed site. You will then seize on some utterly irrelevant aspect of the subject, which has no bearing whatsoever on why it is blood-curdlingly disturbing and misogynistic. You will then proceed to argue in an aggrieved self-righteous manner about this utterly irrelevant aspect that nobody else gives a monkey’s aunt about. Again, to make this clear. Here is an example from this very thread.An MRA says that he dreams of seeing a devastated and suicidally unhappy woman slumped on the pavement in a drunken stupor after her life has been destroyed. David presents this on his blog. You angrily assume the only reason anyone could find this offensive or disturbing is because they do not believe that women get drunk. In conclusion, you seem almost autistically blind to what is a disturbing misogynistic opinion and what is not. I dare say you read Thomas Harris’ Red Dragon in a state of complete mystification. ‘Well, this Francis Dolarhyde seems like a good enough chap to me. What on earth’s the matter with him?’Before you say ‘why do you think I’ve done this, I’ve never even heard of Thomas Harris’ – I am not claiming you have actually done this. I am simply highlighting my original point. My father always told me it was wisest not to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man. I am beginning to see what he meant.
>there's a very strong filter in women to always find the majority of men to be "unworthy"There's a very strong filter among MRA commenters on this blog to assume that any woman who doesn't want to sleep with you thinks you're 'unworthy', a 'loser', and 'not worth even giving any of [her] time'. If a woman doesn't want to sleep with you, it doesn't mean she hates you. It just means she doesn't want to sleep with you. I have plenty of male friends and colleagues who are awesome people, I love pending time with them, and I certainly don't think they're losers – but I don't want to sleep with them, either. This is because I, like most women, am capable of seeing men as human beings even when I don't find them attractive.I find it odd that the only such examples we ever hear is from feminists on blog discussions. We never hear these examples pointed out in real life.I've seen shy guys get laid a lot in real life, so yeah, it does happen. Neither of the ones I'm thinking of were cripplingly shy, though; they were both quite quiet and introverted, but they were perfectly comfortable talking to women. I can absolutely believe that men who find it very difficult talking to women in a romantic context would not be getting laid much. (Also, I agree with you that it's a shame men in our society are still expected to initiate romantic/sexual contact. Most feminists would agree with you on that one. We've been arguing against it for years. Join the team!)But, your 'hypergamy' argument isn't about shyness. It's about women only wanting the 'alpha' males, however you're defining that – the rich, powerful, aggressive, Brad-Pitt-lookalike, ones. It's saying that women won't be interested in relationships with men who aren't rich and powerful, or who aren't loud and aggressive. And it's clearly bullshit, because the world is full of men who don't fit your definition of 'alpha' but have no trouble getting laid and getting into relationships. They're just not spending their time on MRA boards whining about what bitches Western women are.
>TheAlek: I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex… etc. Oddly, the only such stories we hear about are on feminist blogs, which can't be reproduce in real life. @TheAlekExcellent comment, I never heard about a single case where a Western woman – she alone – initiated the first contact with a man who was shy and afraid to start a conversation with a female.Such a man is usually a target of scorn by feminists, regardless his otherwise honest life-style.You cannot expect any help or understandings from a Western feminist if you are a man, who is shy, lonely and never had a chance for any personal contact with a female. —–Openly said, life is somewhat different here in Far East. It's easier to talk to each other, as most Asian females feel very comfortable in a group.If you are a man, and you cannot find any girl who might fit your lifestyle, you don't keep it as a secret, you tell it to everybody at your workplace or to other people you know. People usually listen and will not make fun out of you.Women in Asia are more helpful towards men, less scornful and they know many many female friends.Friendship, gossip and introduction among girls in school, women at the workplace etc. play a major social role in many parts of Asia.It is not unknown that suddenly a group of girls is showing up and almost forcing such a boy to go with them after school, or women at the workplace suddenly invite this silent man to come with them.Asian women however are doing such 'introduction games' always in a group.I never heard about a woman going her own way,not in Western society, not in Asia…
>"You did not yet answer my question, how many languages can you speak?It seems you have reading problems.I wonder if English is your native language.To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA. " This is not what the phrase means in English. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/285100.html Making analogies to race is not "playing the race card" in either sense of the term, unless it is done is such a way that strongly implies the original speaker must also feel that way about the issue of race. Your condescending attitude and comments about "reading problems" does not suit your lack of skill at understanding English idioms. The question of how many languages the person speaks or which is their first language is irrelevant to the question of the person's racism. It is also unrelated to your misunderstanding of the meaning of this idiom.
>Thanks for your response.I'd like to point out, reading over my comment I didn't say a thing about your "relationship to terminology, sexual preferences, or the politics of alternate sexualities."I talked about my relationship to that terminology, which as I said, I find off-putting. I didn't bring sexuality or sexual preferences into it at all. I can only think you got that from my mentioning 'submissiveness', but by that I meant 'beta' contains connotations of submissive behaviour among pack animals, like belly-displays and ear licking, which make me uncomfortable when the term is applied to humans. I wasn't saying anything about you other than being uncomfortable with a word you used.
>Lucyrain said… clearly bullshit, because the world is full of men who don't fit your definition of 'alpha' but have no trouble getting laid and getting into relationships. They're just not spending their time on MRA boards whining about what bitches Western women are. My impression is exactly the opposite, the Western world is full with frustrated hateful lonely women spending their time for feminist blogs and are whining about men who reject them.About MRAs, who are they? Good question, let me explain. We are men who are very much different from each other.Some of us are young, some are old, some are from the USA, but others are not, some are poor, others remarkable rich, some are white, but there are also Asians and black men with us, some are native English speakers, others hardly use English in their daily life…MRAs, we are an advocacy group for men, we want an organization serving us, our needs. What's wrong with that?What we really all have together is the ability to talk to each other, we feel no politically correct shame to speak out what happened to us, how we were treated by malicious women in the past.Many of us HAD family and children, often over many years and were badly cheated by their wives and are serving now solely as an ATM.Others are still young, but unlucky, they never had any contact with a female friend and they have no idea why.About myself and some other friends I know from Europe, we are expats with foreign wives and children. This does not mean that our wives are mail-order-brides and are treated as doormats.I am very angry with all these feminists who are talking about MRAs like about members of a criminal organization.
>citizenlemonade said… Yohan:…..MRA makes a hugely disturbing comment David will then post it on this esteemed site. You will then seize on some utterly irrelevant aspect of the subject…Hugely disturbing comment for you, but for sure not for everybody. Maybe David and some feminists with him consider women sitting in their own piss fully drunk in an elevator as a part of their daily life, so-called gender-equality, I don't know.I think, it would be good for feminists to tell such women to exercise self-discipline and to refrain to drink so much. With no drunken women around, MRAs could not write 'hugely disturbing comments' about them.The funny and sad thing is, drunken women sitting in their own piss do not disturb feminists at all, what disturbs them so much are comments from MRAs.In conclusion, you seem almost autistically blind to what is a disturbing misogynistic opinion and what is not. There are plenty of organizations, which are protecting so-called female victims against misogyny.As MRA I care about men/boys. Misandrists.feminists from USA/UK, language English are most difficult for any meaningful discussion. David is an excellent example with his MRA-hater blog. Feminists in Continental Europe show up with significant less hateful rhetoric, discussion is often surprisingly easy.The reason for that might be different laws with more consideration for men and boys, another reason might be that MRAs and feminists in Cntinental Europe do not use English for communication.
>DarkSideCat said… Yohan: To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA. This is not what the phrase means in English. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/285100.html What nonsense talk is this? Your comment is a follow-up of SallyStrange.As John Lennon said, Woman is the Nigger of the World. And I promise that will be the last time I use the n-word in this forum. Sorry if it was jarring. I do think “race traitor” is a fair analogy to the “mangina” term. (from your link: "Why was playing the race card necessary in order for O. J. Simpson to go free? Because it was the only way for the defense to deal with the massive physical evidence against him.")If you present men = whitewomen = blackWhat else could this mean but women = victimmen = assholeAnd you are telling me this is not playing the race card as your final argument? – Yeah, nothing else is left over anymore, nice try…mangina = race-traitorWorks for you, but not for me – luckily I am not living in the States.mangina = race-traitorHahahaha LOL….
>Yohan-you are still annoyed over something that happened decades ago. You found a solution to your problem but instead of moving on with your life, you must spend hours a day stewing in a rage over some females not being interested in you decades ago.And your point about having a group to do some positive actions would be great-if they were doing anything more then sitting around stewing in their hatred and rage.Cue complete lack of understanding of my or anyone else's comment.
>TheAlek, I don't put Rage Against the Man-chine in my "good stuff" list because I don't think it's good stuff. I think it's bad stuff, and so do most feminists online. I don't think it's linked to by a single blog I have in my good stuff list. By contrast, the MRA/MGTOW sites I link to are pretty much all the big MRA/MGTOW sites there are out there, and a few smaller ones. They link to one another. There is no other group of MRA/MGTOW sites out there that are untainted by this crazy misogyny. If you know of one, by all means let me know. I have asked MRA/MGTOW types again and again to name such sites, and they can't, or won't, or the sites they mention aren't free of misogyny. So far the least misogynistic forum I've found is Reddit's Men's Rights subreddit, but there's plenty of misogyny there; it just gets challenged more often than at other sites. Glenn SAcks and PElle Billing are more moderate than most, but they aren't actually all that widely linked to by the MRA/MGTOW community online. Also: I've interviewed hundreds of guys and women about this, and couldn't find any cases of a woman asking a guy out first, initiating the first kiss, initiating the first sex… etc.Really? I just interviewed myself, and it's happened to me.
>(Oh, Pele Billing was suggested by one MRA here, so that's one site that's been recommended to me by an MRA that doesn't seem overrun by misogyny.)
>Elizabeth said… …..Yohan-you are still annoyed over something that happened decades ago I had a very bad time for almost 20 years as child, later as student and as young employee because of some certain females next to me. Not such a short time – about 1/3 of my life so far.…..you must spend hours a day stewing in a rage over some females …LOL, no, really no, not hours, only some minutes, I write a few comments during lunch time in office or at my desk at home after work, I am good in typing and have a fast internet-connection.Feminists are writing much more than I do. Check out HUGO's blog for example.http://hugoschwyzer.net/…..And your point about having a group to do some positive actions Yes, MRAs understand organization in groups is very important.We have groups, we talk about travel, chess, motorcycles, foreign languages etc. …..complete lack of understanding of my or anyone else's comment NOT ANYONE ELSE, only misandrists/feminists are telling me they cannot understand my English.