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| Non-haters also gonna hate. |
The “Rant you very much” section of NiceGuy’s MGTOW [Men Going Their Own Way] forum is the place for commenters to post stuff that they think might be too crazy and “out there” for the forum’s other sections. Given what else is posted over on NiceGuy’s — the stomping ground of a fellow named Nightstorm and his wild fantasies of moustrap vaginas and leech women — this is a tall order indeed.
NiceGuy richbansha tried his best to live up to these high expectations with a recent rant titled “Why not hate?” Why bother to pretend that we don’t hate women, rich asks his fellow NiceGuys, when this won’t actually do us any good? As for him, he admits his hatred up front. (I’ve taken the liberty of bolding some expecially ranty bits in the quote below, and adding a paragraph break.)
Do I “hate women”? You bet your ass! …
[T]he most common reason why one of us will deny the possibility that we hate them is not not look bad. Is there any doubt that they don’t hate YOU or that those listening in wouldn’t just as soon see you violated? … No matter what you do, you can still expect the most inconscionable treatment at the hands of AW [American Women]. If the response to both kindness and cruelty are identical, what is the reason for such a lopsided favoritism for appeasement?
When saying that you want to rape and cut up a woman with a band saw is met with the exact same reaction as saying you want to want to buy them a drink, what … is the incentive to not be hateful and violent? We have seen for ourselves that refraining only makes you are more likely target for hatred and violence. … So when a stinking cavern gets out of hand why not pulp her? You know you want to. Does anyone really think that stopping yourself or saying you would stop yourself will make it any easier on you?
In a followup post, he blames it all on the alleged tendency of women to adore “bad boys” and treat kind, considerate nice guys — richbansha apparently thinks he is, or at least was, one of them — like dirt:
My fate was decided in 7th grade when that girl said I had cooties. … If you ever got a “P” in the box on your report card that says “Respects the rights of others” then you are a marked man. …
I have suffered far more for the things that I had nothing to do with than any active and intentional infraction that I ever committed. … Who do skanks even call the cops on? Violent meth dealer Bf who routinely beats her and impregnates her or the honest, hardworking auditor who pays for the meth dealer’s offspring? Is it any wonder that I think dudes should get on the good side of that equation?
The “good side,” of course, being the side of of the girlfriend-beating “bad-boy” meth dealer.
So, yeah, that’s what a rant on NiceGuy’s looks like.
More interesting to me than the actual rant, though, are the responses of others in the forum. TheDude suggested he tone it down a bit:
So you think that violence may be the answer when there are thousands of cops who would love to beat your ass because you “disrespected a lady?” I think talking about it on this board just makes us a target and it is bad advice.
In other words, the voice of reason in this discussion frames his advice in entirely self-interested terms: Don’t attack women because then cops will beat your ass. Don’t talk like this on the forum, because it makes MGTOW look bad.
And then there are those who chime in to say they didn’t hate women … but. There is always a “but.” A couple of the “buts” are fairly mild and inoffensive. the american, echoing the famous Dr. Freud, notes
I don’t hate women. I just don’t understand their thought processes.
Our friend Yohan goes a little further (bold in original):
I am not hateful or violent, but I am highly MISTRUSTING against all and everything a Western female will ever tell me.
It’s not only about my past, it’s about the present legal situation in feminist countries, which encourages females of any age to consider men of any age, even young boys and old people, even your own father as nothing but trash except for quick money supply.
About hate, it should be said, hate is really bad for your health cousing heart problems, stomach problems etc..
And then there are … these. Richard Cranium blames those evil Sufragettes (and the manginas who loved them) for it all:
It’s not a matter of hating women per se, it’s hating what they’ve become, or more specifically what manginas have let them become. As has been stated here & elsewhere, the day we let them out of the kitchen and let them vote was the day it all went to hell.
Big R takes his non-hatred to a whole other level:
I dont hate them either. I want them to live to see how lonely and suicidal they,ll become when they find out all the men have dumped them forever in the feminized world. I want them to live and suffer without men or the attention they receive from us. …
I have turned out just a little vengeful towards women for the treatment I have received from them throughout my life. Just seeing an AW maybe lying on the sidewalk after a drunken suicidal depressive drinking binge after being dumped and cheated on would brighten up my day.
Our friend Yohan obliged this last wish by posting a photo of a drunk woman lying on the floor in what appears to be a pool of her own urine, with a friendly little note advising Big R to “have a nice day.”
So very considerate, these Men Going Their Own Way.
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>"Men in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a woman without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the girl."In many cases this is because they think of women as a separate species and haven't cultivated female friendship. If you only talk to women in a sexual context, it's hard to make small talk.
>So, me, feminist. Married to beta male. Best friend, another beta male. Both beta males have taken a great deal of crap in their lives for not being dominant, alpha types, including enduring a lot of violence from dominant, alpha types. Most of that violence was childhood bullying, but things still happen occasionally. Last year when we traveled to New Orleans, a bigger, drunk man called my husband a "fag" and we slipped away before he could start a fight.Both men see the path to their freedom as being through feminism because they'd really like to not be treated like crap by other men because they aren't dominant and masculine. They're both straight, but sometimes read as gay, and sometimes targets of violence for that. Both men prefer friendships with feminist men and women because the feminist men and women don't hate on them for speaking with their hands, or not liking football, or being super shy in groups, or liking to talk about their feelings, or sometimes wanting to wear pink because damn it's just a color. Despite your assertion that they're shy because women might interrupt them, both of them are more shy around strange men than strange women, because both of them are wary of violence from alphas.Are they manginas yet? If you don't think so, that's cool. There's at least one thread in the forum you moderate dedicated to how one of them is.
>The men's rights movement fights hard for traditional notions of gender, all the while pretending that that makes them edgy and brave.No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women.
>Yohan:Having been reading this blog for some time now, I cannot help but notice a distinct pattern to your debating style.For example. Were our host to encounter a post on an MRA site saying ‘It is my lifelong fantasy to destroy a woman’s face with battery acid and stand masturbating frenziedly over her disfigured, weeping wreck.’ And if our host were then to post it on his own blog with appropriate commentary.Your good self would then enter stage left, saying something along the lines of ‘so what’s wrong with masturbating, David? I’ve met plenty of women who masturbate. You manginas think they’re all perfect princesses and you think it’s just men who masturbate – well I have news for you white knights, IT’s NOT!’If ‘grasping the basic point of an argument’ was an academic subject, it would take you a lifetime of devoted study to keep up with the eight year olds in the special needs class.I congratulate you, sir. You are a true credit to your cause.
>Also, this is something else that's always sort of confused me about MRA positions. My beta male husband who has never been in trouble in his life, who goes totally silent in groups of four or more strangers, who in high school was a glasses-wearing 90-pound weakling, the kid whose family couldn't always afford food who had to bus in to a high school by the country club, who owned two pairs of jeans that had to last him from eighth grade to senior year, whose body language is swish, and who got beaten up every day of junior high……he had all the sexual partners he could ever want from age thirteen onward. Friends, strangers, romances, threesomes, oral sex, hand jobs, two-girls-one-guy, two-guys-one-girl, group make-out sessions, women who looked like they were from magazines, women who looked like they were out of porn movies, women who were fat, women who were ordinary-looking, women who were ugly, women at the top of the social hierarchy, women in the middle of the social hierarchy, women at the bottom of the social hierarchy, women older than he was, women younger than he was, a couple self-identified lesbians who casually wanted some dick… he had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more sex at a younger age than any alpha dude I've ever run into. So the "beta males can't get laid because all women are into hypergamy" thing really confuses me. He's never been at the top of the social ladder. He didn't have money or prestige or leather-coat-cool or thuggishness. He never got high grades in high school or had any access to money. He did eventually end up in his early-twenties being convinced he was smart enough to go to college, where he started fulfilling his intellectual potential and went into a field with decent income–but all that happened significantly after he started screwing.I mean, it's easy for me to make guesses about why he's popular with the ladies. He genuinely likes the company of women, he's kind, he's happy to have no-strings attached sex, he's attracted to a range of bodies. As his wife, I also have to say, I think he's the nicest, most generous, genuinely good person ever.But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? If we accept that American women are into hypergamy, then what's up?
>The other problem I have with Yohan is that he absolutely insists that each quote, thought or belief expressed by an individual MRA or MGTOW be taken as solely representative of that one person and not the movement as a whole. Which, in and of itself, is not quite a bad thing – except that Yohan then turns around makes the exact same generalizations about women (as a gender) that he threw a fit over when they were made about men (as indicative of the beliefs of a subset of the gender).
>Transposing Yohan’s broad generalizations from the man/woman binary to the white/black binary reveals just how ridden with logical fallacies and bigotry his thinking really is. Also, typing it out made realize (painfully) how poor his grasp on basic English grammar is. This person is MODERATING a chat forum? They must be hard up for moderators. I think, any black person who stays away from some certain people and certain places and is willing to talk face-to-face with a white person (1-1 and not one group with another group) in a not-noisy nice environment, like in a park or restaurant etc. and shows some kindness and patience and not into hip hop after the first 3 sentences will get [approval from Whites’ Rights Activists]. (Paraphrasing here.)About white people, etc. I think, many white people are worried to say something 'wrong' which can be used against them later on. White people in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a black person without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the Negro. This behavior has nothing to do with being a 'race traitor'.What MRAs consider as a race traitor is totally different.As John Lennon said, Woman is the Nigger of the World. And I promise that will be the last time I use the n-word in this forum. Sorry if it was jarring. I do think “race traitor” is a fair analogy to the “mangina” term.
>"As John Lennon said, Woman is the N* of the World."Because race politics aren't global…?I mean, I understand the point, but uncritically repeating Lennon's phrase is a problem. I like to hope that feminist dialogue on race has moved past expressing it in a way that minimizes colonialism/imperialism/racism.
>@Denia"The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. — Germaine Greer –Except she never said that. "I rather suspected she hadn't because, even though I have not read all of her work (or even most of it), considering that she is infamously transphobic. I just can't picture someone who devoted an entire chapter of one of her better known books to bashing trans women and who said this:"Whatever else it is gender reassignment is an exorcism of the mother. When a man decides to spend his life impersonating his mother (like Norman Bates in Psycho) it is as if he murders her and gets away with it, proving at a stroke that there was nothing to her. His intentions are no more honourable than any female impersonator's; his achievement is to gag all those who would call his bluff. When he forces his way into the few private spaces women may enjoy and shouts down their objections, and bombards the women who will not accept him with threats and hate mail, he does as rapists have always done"as someone who would ever respect the notion that someone with a penis could be identified as a woman.
>I certainly didn't intend to minimize racism/colonialism/imperialism, and if it came off that way then I apologize. I also don't mean to gloss over the problems feminism has had and still has when addressing racism. I was trying to illustrate that in America today, casual sexism seems far more socially acceptable than casual racism. I often find that illustrating a point about sexism with a parallel drawn from racism find a more receptive audience amongst those who are genuinely curious about feminism.
>thevagrantsvoice said… "No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women . . "I understand where Paul is coming from on that matter. I don't like feminism or traditionalism—neither are for real equality as a given rule, it seems.
>Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation (she must approach you alone, she can't approach you in a place that's "noisy" or not "nice," she has to be "patient" with you no matter how you respond), read ugly ulterior motives into things she might say (if she brings up shopping, she's trying to force me to buy her something OMG!), and make it clear that you go into any conversation with a woman assuming that she'll be stupid, boring and venal…and in THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE you're whining about how it's too hard to talk to a woman because she might look down on you for saying "something 'wrong'."Are you aware of the concept of projection?
>Sally, I know you were being sarcastic, and I understand the point you ware making, but I deleted your first post with the n-word; I don't want to see that sort of language here (with a possible exception if it's in a direct quote; I left your reference to the John Lennon song up). I think your comments without the n-word made your point much more clearly, in any case.
>That's fine David. I understand.
>Yohan:Having been reading this blog for some time now, I cannot help but notice a distinct pattern to your debating style.For example. Were our host to encounter a post on an MRA site saying ‘It is my lifelong fantasy to destroy a woman’s face with battery acid and stand masturbating frenziedly over her disfigured, weeping wreck.’ No idea, what you mean with that. I never commented to threads like that… Please explain…
>shaenon said… Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation.. Well you will have to accept the fact, that not only women, but also men haav the right to make a choice and to say NO!….Not every man is into nightlife, alcohol, drugs, thug-life… Sorry.
>> Are you aware of the concept of projection?For those who aren't:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
>SallyStrange said… Transposing Yohan’s broad generalizations from the man/woman binary to the white/black binary reveals just how ridden with logical fallacies and bigotry his thinking really is. Also, typing it out made realize (painfully) how poor his grasp on basic English grammar is…The usual shaming language from a feminist running out of arguments… playing the race card…How many languages can you speak?
>Wait, wait, Yohan… you mean to tell me you felt a tiny frisson of shame just now? Because that would be amazing. It would show that there's a tiny bit of hope for you! I love it when people accuse me of "playing the race card." Then I can accuse them of playing the "playing the race card" card.
>@SallyStrangeYou did not yet answer my question, how many languages can you speak?It seems you have reading problems.I wonder if English is your native language.To compare man/women to white/black people IS playing the race card, but I am accustomed to such plainly stupid remarks from USA. In your strange fantasy, the whites are the boys (any race), the blacks are the girls (any race), and the Asians are the ladyboys (any race) or what?I don't know, what's your point, but anyway, feminists (white, black, men, women) are funny people.
>"Not every man is into nightlife, alcohol, drugs, thug-life… Sorry."Um, what are you talking about? What I pointed out is that you seem to want to be able to judge women–very harshly, I should add–and not be judged yourself, which, sorry, ain't gonna happen, buddy. How you go from that to thinking I'm into "thug-life" (yeah, you got me, I married a museum curator who collects comic books for the drug-fueled party lifestyle) baffles me.I'm not being sarcastic. I'm confused by your response. Either you have severe reading comprehension problems and honestly don't understand what people are saying to you, or you're deliberately playing dumb. Which is it?
>rachel-swirsky said… But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? That's not MRA-theory, but our daily observation. It's the reality. I gave you links about women running even after those bad boys who are already behind bars.Kave said… So Yohan What would be worse, being a woman in love with a cold blooded killer or being a cold blooded killer? That's not the point. The point is that this woman has a choice – she made a decision and she is responsible for her good or bad decision. Don't blame the MRAs, don't blame the thugs. Blame those women who made bad choices.We are all equals, isn't it? Your bad decision is not my problem.
>Oh, Yohan. I love how you provide a laundry list of things a woman has to do to meet your approval when striking up a conversation.. shaenon said… Um, what are you talking about? What I pointed out is that you seem to want to be able to judge women… Have you ever seen a laundry list written by a female about all and everything what a man has to be for her?But for feminists, a laundry list from the female to the man is perfectly OK, and a laundry list from the man to the female – even a very short one – is whining about how it's too hard to talk to a woman?
>The cold blooded killer did not have choices? I asked you want was worse.You seriously have a reading comprehension problem.
>From your posts I've gotten that you are happily married with a good family life.And that you were teased in school and the girls didn't like you.MAYBE it might be time to focus on the now and get over what happened in junior high?