>
Manosphere men often complain about evil women attempting to drain them of their money. To which there really is a very simple solution: If you don’t want a girlfriend or wife who expects you to support her, don’t seek out women who expect you to support them.
This seems like a fairly common-sense strategy, and one that would simple enough for even the dullest of man boobz to remember. But apparently it has proved a little hard to put into practice.
For evidence of this, let’s return to our good friend Nightstorm — you know, the mousetrap-vagina, leech-women in the food court of doom guy on NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. He’s back with another posting called “The List,“which is a list — naturally — of
the soul draining demands a woman puts on a man once their together. He MUST do these things to “make the relationship work”
The list is long, loopy, whiny, and filled with ridiculous things that MGTOWs and many MRAs tend to imagine that all women demand of all men (“Open all doors before and after for her”), but which have not actually been a part of any relationship I’ve ever been in. Aside from some complaints that are ridiculously petty (“Go to borning [sic] family out-goings”) and some that are weird paranoid fantasies (“You get your penis size and bed performance revealed to the sisterhood. Oh yes, their not laughing with you!”), the complaints come back, again and again, to money:
Pay for dinner …
Buying her yet another useless item she doesn’t need, like shoes or a brand new car ….
You get to pay for the privledge of being with this woman. …
You get to work while she lays around the house doing nothing. …
She can have the government garnish your wages to pay her just for being the female spouse. … You get to feel like the worthless scum you are and pay her for telling you that you are.
I’m not even sure what the fuck he’s even talking about with half of this shit.
But, again, there really is a simple solution to all these money issues. I’ll say it again, in bold this time: If you don’t want a girlfriend or wife who expects you to support her, don’t seek out women who expect you to support them.
This, evidently, is where Nightstorm’s grand strategy has gone a bit awry.
For, as I discovered from another posting of his from a few days back, it turns out that Nightstorm’s plan to totally avoid evil leech-like women apparently entails spending many hours flirting with women online. Indeed, he included a long transcript of an online chat he’d recently had with an (alleged) 18-year-old (alleged) girl who’d evidently decided after a couple of online chats that she wanted to be his girlfriend, despite the fact that the two of them have never actually met and in fact live in different states. (Hey, women can be idiots too.)
Nightstorm (posting as “shawnz”) decided they needed to set down the terms of their relationship, and began by asking her what she thought she brought to the relationship. She jokingly suggested: herself, her “sexy hair,” and her vagina.
[20:54] shawnz: if you become my GF..
[20:54] shawnz: I will get you, your sexy hair, and your vagina
[20:55] shawnz: and what do you expect out of me …
[20:55] [name redacted]: ur penis ur cuddles and ur texting/calling/being on cam and coming to visit!
[20:55] shawnz: ok, anything else
[20:56] [name redacted]: nope
That seems pretty straightforward. No mention of “family out-goings” or even paying for dinner.
Nightstorm then set out his terms for the relationship:
[20:58] shawnz: First, I want a girl who cooks and cleans the house, I want someone who doesn’t nag, cripe
[20:58] shawnz: bitch, or complain, someone who cuddles and anytime I want sex
[20:58] shawnz: someone who has ambition
[20:58] [name redacted]: demanding arent we lol
[20:58] shawnz: and someone who wants more than just love in the relationship, after all its hard work
Demanding, to be sure, lol, but he offers some things in return:
[20:59] shawnz: and what I offer is romance, a good paying salary for provision, and intimacy
[20:59] shawnz: I also offer you good self-esteem and reliability and faithfulness
Let’s pause for a moment to consider that bit in the middle after “romance”: “a good paying salary for provision.”
The two haven’t even met, and he’s already offering to support her financially.
It appears Nightstorm not only has not only bungled the whole “don’t pursue women who expect you to support them” strategy I have outlined above. He’s actually OFFERING TO SUPPORT A WOMAN WHO DOESN’T ACTUALLY EXPECT HIM TO SUPPORT HER.
It seems to me that if you want a woman who is financially dependent on you — you provide the money, she provides “anytime [you] want sex” — you pretty much forfeit your right to complain about her being financially dependent on you.
Fortunately for Nightstorm, [name redacted], and the rest of us on this planet, he decided that [name redacted] wasn’t serious enough to be his girlfriend. So, crisis averted. For now.
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>"but then you risk being rejected because these women don't need you."It's perfectly fine for a woman to feel this way. But I think women take that concept too far these days and think very little of men. They dig it in and slap our faces with itIf the tables are turned, it's misogyny
>If the tables are turned, it's misogynyWell, not exactly. It's one thing to say "I want to live an independent life" and another to say, "women (or all American or Western women) are evil, moneygrubbing whores, and to show how much I don't need them I'm going to spend all day on the internet talking about what moneygrubbing whores they are."
>Nicko, you seem to be eternally perturbed that people sometimes adopt the attitude, "Thanks, but I'd rather not date someone who [X]." Everyone, male, female and intersex, carries around their own internal list of qualities they're looking for in a partner, coupled with a list of deal-breakers. It's not misandrist to not want to date a man who can't hold down a job any more than it's misogynist to prefer redheaded artists. It is not bigoted or prejudiced to want to date someone who can take care of themselves and support themselves – after all, most people want to be partners, not parents. If you feel like you are continually being slapped in the face by women, I'd suggest the problem is not women, but that you might have low self-esteem. I have found that people who value themselves often value other people as well; whereas people who think they aren't worth very much are the quickest to project that onto others.
>Word to what Lady Victoria said, but I would add this:"It's not misandrist to not want to date a man who can't hold down a job any more than it's misogynist to prefer redheaded artists."It would be misadrist to say "I only want to date men who work and all men who don't work are worthless assholes who don't deserve to live." It would also be misogynist to say "All women should be forced to dye their hair red because only red heads are worth anything in society."I haven't really seen the former on any female centered blogs or sites. I have seen the other on MRA sites. Although it is usually something like, "I don't find fat women attractive and so fat women shouldn't be allowed outside." Too often MRAs seem to think that any woman who doesn't fit into their definition of fuckable doesn't deserve any respect as a human being. I also think it's possible they are projecting their own views of fuckability=respect onto women. Therefore, if a woman doesn't want to fuck them they assume that the woman doesn't think they are worthy to live. For most of us (men and women) we respect everyone because of their humanity. Not simply because they make our genitals tingle.
>Actually Missy-it is "regardless of fuckablity, women are unworthy of respect." At least that is the view I am coming to when discussing this stuff with Nick and the gang.
>Basically, these MRAs cannot accept that women reject them and cannot accept that the women they want are attracted to other guys. They are narcissists that believe they are entitled to women. It's why they hate women and bashes other guys by calling them manginas.
>David: "Last summer. Again, I wonder where these guys are meeting women if the women they're meeting are all like this."You are a lucky man then. And again, there is no indication of "all" women being like that. There are enough like that out there that warnings are warranted."The word "all" in my post is only a slight exaggeration. MGTOWs, after all, tend to swear off ALL women, or at least ALL western women."But you equated the attitude to MRA's as well, therefor the accusation of "all was more then just an "slight" exaggeration."He's a 25-year old virgin, by his own description. "Then he's a twit and deserves to stay alone."Welcome to the real world, in which people have competing demands on their time. Of course, if one person in a relationship (male or female) is demanding that the other *never* see his or her friends, that's a problem. But that's not typical."Actually, it is quite typical, at least amongst my friends wives. I tend to drive a lot of them around when they do come out, so as not to leave the single car family without a vehicle, and I see the annoyance on the wives faces when the men come home. I hear the ridicule and shaming coming from the wives, at other social gatherings, for their husbands "wanting to go out and play with their little friends". and yes, it is a problem, and a far too common one.Missy: "Then again, they are also going to have higher standards for the guys they want to date. Either because they are evil bitches (MRA answer) or because they have enough self-confidence that they would rather be single than date anything that comes along their path. "Only one or the other? meet the "higher standards" or he's beneath you? Define higher standards? do you mean higher earner? of course not, you wouldn't admit to be so shallow… but think about this… Women's general insistence on finding a higher earner is what prompts them to sacrifice career for family, because generally, you don't sacrifice the higher earnings when there is a lower earnings to be given up instead. it's this tendency that put's women into the child caregiver role. basic economics. Just ask David, if a girlfriend/wife made more then him, would he be willing to stay home on paternity leave and tend to the kids while mom went back to work? I bet he would. I would. but generally speaking, I'm not high enough standards for a higher earning woman.
>David: "It's one thing to say "I want to live an independent life""but that's not an example of the tables turned. nick noted that women are taking the "reject a man cause he's not needed" too far, for example, claiming men altogether aren't needed (IE, they are a novelty, something to amuse them), and if men considered women like that (using the sexdoll as an example), then there are rampant claims of misogyny.being independent is one thing. not needing men because you are independent is something else akin to MGTOW's and players. And just to clarify, I realize there are different interpretations of need, there is needing something, as in, it's required, but then there is "not needing" something, as in not being of any use, in which case it often gets tossed aside or put away. While you may often be referring to required, when coupled with other attitudes common on these boards, it is very easy to take the "of no use" interpretation. Just a friendly FYI, be wary of your wording or you may find yourself on a counterpart to David's board.David. Read missy’s post above talking about what MRA’s write and tell me again why I shouldn’t believe your blogs intention is to paint the entire MRM in the light of the worst examples you post here? She has a very distinct view of MRA's that would match what your site depicts, but not my own personal experience.
>There is an assumption that dating is easy, or should be easy. It's not. Dating, finding a relationship and maintaining it takes effort. 'Work' might not be the best word, but it certainly requires a certain expenditure of emotional and physical energy to keep a relationship healthy and fulfilling. It also requires a certain amount of risk – ask nearly anyone who is currently in a happy relationship about the worst heartbreak they ever experienced, and I guarantee you that, male or female, gay or straight, they'll all have stories. But instead of letting the experience turn them bitter against an entire gender, they learned from it, moved on and found someone else they could be happy with.If you're not willing to expend the energy, make the effort and take the risk, then just don't date. And if you make the choice not to date, then don't spend all your free time whining about how every member of the gender you're attracted to are nothing but ungrateful, shallow wastes of space.
>Kratch, I'll get back to your comments later. In the meantime, I want to second this from Lady Victoria: "But instead of letting the experience turn them bitter against an entire gender, they learned from it, moved on and found someone else they could be happy with."Exactly. I've had girlfriends who were clingy and demanding. I didn't like it. What I learned from this wasn't "all women are clingy and demanding" but "maybe I should find a women who isn't clingy and demanding, and see if I can date her." And lo and behold that worked.
>but generally speaking, I'm not high enough standards for a higher earning woman. I've dated multiple women who make more than me. I'm a pretty unambitious guy. Kind of a slacker.But I find that when I look for the kind of women I like to interact with, they respond well to the fact that I appreciate those qualities in them that I like. It's not a woman thing, everybody responds well to that. And some women like me enough in return that they don't care that I don't make a lot of money.So, I mean, I guess all I'm saying is that you're full of shit. More to the point, you disrespect women, they pick up on that and so don't want to date you, and you've decided it's actually their fault because they're gold-digging bitches.
>Kratch, MRAs are obsessed by the idea of finding slutty women in clubs or finding money grabbing women that are below them and then they bitch because these women are not good companions. As one commenter said on another blog ( http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/06/sex-and-city.html?showComment=1275871002567#c7537574413053948406 ) :================================================I personally think that there is some male personality type that delights in “revealing” womens’ promiscuity. Blandishing it as a ‘cruel fact of life’ to wake the listener from a supposed romantic dream he has fallen into about female purity. They do this, it seems, to paint a picture of a world where women are adventuresome whores, yet pretend not to be. It is always implied that “I have seen so much crazy shit, stuff you wouldn’t believe” – and the person listening is simply naive to this deviousness of women.Completely aside from the actual phenomenon of women’s promiscuity, for myself I like to notice the steadfastness with which this viewpoint is emphasized by those who adhere to it. I also notice the delight they take in ‘revealing womens’ dirty side’. Then I notice the ambiguous nature of most of the evidence, and the fact that it generalizes the behavior of the 12-20% of women who I know are genuinely promiscuous and slutty, to the totality of women (or would like to).I personally think it is a way for these men to justify to themselves neglecting emotional development, by “revealing” women not to be worthy of an emotionally developed man. According to these guys, it’s all just a game, and we are all just lying to each other: women are whores – with this premise one sidesteps all the questions about emotional commitment, trust, and intimacy which otherwise crop up.I write this only because I have now encountered 4+ men giving me these kind of assurances about the devious sexual lives of women, all with the same tonality and emphasis, all pointing to the same understanding. Each of them was also unhappy in their relationships, I may note by the by.=============================================
>The biggest single dating advice my wife and I have given our children is simple: Never date anyone without good freinds of the opposite sex. These mra and mgtow don't seem to have freindships with women. Huge red flag for me.
>Kratch said:"He's a 25-year old virgin, by his own description. "Then he's a twit and deserves to stay alone.sigh, I hate virgin shaming for men.
>Has nothing to do with his virginity, And I have no idea where the assumption even came from. Nether Twit not stay alone have any relation to ones past sexual experience. I do however think that if he doesn't have the experience, his list has very little justification and far to much accusation and/or expectation. A far cry from Virgin Shaming
>"I've dated multiple women who make more than me."And how many of those were looking for a good time vs wanted to settle down with you?"Then I notice the ambiguous nature of most of the evidence, and the fact that it generalizes the behavior of the 12-20% of women who I know are genuinely promiscuous and slutty, to the totality of women (or would like to)."isn't that what you're doing to MRA's right now? Well, with the exception that 4+ doesn't even come close to 12-20% of the MRM
>It's kind of amazing that the argument always seems to come back to how they're annoyed at having to buy stuff. I've never had a woman ask me to buy her anything. I've offered to buy things for them – they've offered to buy things for me. I'd say the occurrences are actually pretty equal, (in fact, in retrospect, I've dated quite a few women who were quite generous with the check book). As it turns out, if people actually enjoy the pleasure of your company, you don't need to pay them to stick around.
>avpd0nmmng said… Basically, these MRAs cannot accept that women reject them and cannot accept that the women they want are attracted to other guys. Basically, MRAs are interested into a long-term relationship with ONE honest woman.We reject women, who prefer a wild nightlife in alcohol and drugs and with various rich playboys and/or violent thugs instead of a serious relationship.MRAs reject women in their 30s and 40s who are suddenly looking for a NiceGuy, demanding he takes care of them and their children. For better understanding we have to point out, that exactly these women were making scornful fun of us, when we all were still young men. You did not need us in your past, and we do not need you in our future.Sorry ladies, but finished is finished. Men (still) have the right to choose and to accept or reject certain women.
>Johnny said… It's kind of amazing that the argument always seems to come back to how they're annoyed at having to buy stuff. I've never had a woman ask me to buy her anything… I do not know if you are telling the truth or not, but why should you lie? Good for you.You met women demanding 'nothing' from you.In my case, I was not lucky, women were demanding from me all and everything, from diamonds up to a private horse – and I was only a simple office worker with a little income.OK, you were lucky, many other men are not.Please do not expect EVERY woman treats every man as an equal…
>FWIW, I've never demanded anything from my boyfriends except companionship, love and support. I take pride in being able to support myself, and even offered to support my current boyfriend if he needed it. So, I suppose, Yohan, please do not expect EVERY woman treats every man as an ambulant ATM.
>I, too, have never had a woman ask me to buy her things. Virtually all the women I have dated, including my wife, make as much or more than I. Maybe it's more than just a matter of luck?
>It isn't luck, it's being a good judge of character. Something that MRA's suck at.
>YohanPerhaps you should have dated a feminist who would not ask these things of you?Question for you. Have you had any female friends? Women who you will meet for a pint or a round of golf, women who you simply enjoy their company without a hope of a sexual relationship?If you don't enjoy the companionship of women why would you expect them to enjoy yours? It’s like a white supremacist wanting to live with a black guy, if you don’t like them then why in heck would you be looking for one to live with. This is what is most disturbing about this post we are talking about. Nightstorm knows nothing about this girl, has never met her, yet he's willing to just draw up a contract and get himself a wife, if he ever did find a woman insane enough to say o.k. to that how do you think that would play out? YohanYou say you are married and happy. I cannot believe you are either. I think you are more like my brother and living out a fantasy where you get to be the big guy in the mgtow world. My brother has even taken pictures with prostitutes and bragged about his new women on your site. I doubt he’s the only schizophrenic regular on your site.
>SpeedlinesI think that the people mra's engage tend to have a decent abilty to judge character, hence they get the cold shoulder.
>Uh… no.http://www.singledudetravel.com/2011/01/the-diamond-ring-scam/http://www.singledudetravel.com/2010/11/american-girls-suck/