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| Spearhead readers: Not actually as cool as Fonzie. |
When sites enable users to upvote and downvote comments and posts, the rationale is generally that it improves discussion and filters out trolls. In practice, this is almost never the case; instead, the up and down arrows offer the majority a way to reward those who simply rehash the party line and punish those who dare suggest anything even remotely challenging. This punishment is accentuated on sites on which dissenters who are downvoted beyond a certain threshold see their comments literally vanish, unless readers click a special link to make them visible again.
We’ve seen in the past the sorts of things that get massively upvoted on The Spearhead. A comment suggesting that “a woman’s vagina/body is her one and only asset” got, at last count, 58 upvotes and only 4 downvotes. Comments suggesting that women are “parasites,” “dumb as bricks,” incapable of logic or empathy each got dozens of upvotes and only a handful of downvotes, as did comments suggesting that women should never have been given the right to vote. Heck, one recent comment suggesting that Daniel Hernandez was “a traitor to men” for helping to save Gabrielle Giffords’ life got twice as many upvotes as downvotes. (As I pointed out in a recent post, there were actually a number of comments in that vein; they all got more upvotes than downvotes)
So if these sorts of comments get upvoted, the question arises: what sort of horrible, beyond-the-pale nuttiness actually invites downvotes on the site? Well, in a recent guest posting there, someone calling himself Big Daddy From Cincinnati offered some (not really very good) internet dating advice for the misogynist masses. Along the way he opined that “women are amoral creatures, flakes, and they will reject you for anything, everything, nothing, the phase of the moon, or who knows what. They will lead you on and waste your time … . ”
While most commenters seemed to agree with this characterization of the ladies, one anonymous gal suggested instead that:
Yep, you can practically hear the Spearhead guys furiously downvoting that bit of heresy. What an outlandish opinion, clearly the work of an evil, misandrist troll! Probably a lesbian, too. I mean, what kind of crazy man-hating monster would she have to be not to be utterly smitten by the Spearhead men?
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>Nick,My apologies. I didn't meant to accuse you of forcing–or wanting to force–anyone to do anything. I was speaking–what's the word?–hypothetically. Just as you hypothetically have the right to lower your standards or improve yourself, you do not (hypothetically again) have the right to force someone to have sex with you. I'm glad that you accept this hypothetical proposition, and that you do not wish to force women to have sex with you against their will. Good on you. In future, I will include the word "hypothetically" whenever I make such a statement, so that you are not confused by this obscure rhetorical device. I apologize if I was unclear.As Sandy pointed out, the only I intended to accuse you of was whining, which you continue to do. That's your right, just as it's my right to point it out–and just as it's the right of women (and men) to over-price themselves in the dating market. By the way, I don't deny that some women do this. My only response is "so what?" How does that hurt you? No one is obligating you (hypothetically) to date them. I mean, it's unfortunate that you (hypothetically, as I don't know this for sure)are not able to date the women of your choice, but surely the fact that you are (hypothetically) alone is not entirely the fault of overly choosy women? Do you not bear some small sliver of responsibility for your (hypothetical) predicament? Work with me here. All snark aside, you seem unhappy in your current situation and for that I have genuine empathy. Really. As I wrote upthread, I've been there before, and it's not fun. Accepting some measure of responsibility could be the first step up. The choice is yours. Just sayin. Also, if what I've said does not apply to you–and you are, in fact, happy as a clam–please disregard. Consider it all hypothetical.
>"If they don't deserve it then how did they get it? In a free market of relationships, the price they get *is* their worth, by definition." How do they get it? Because plenty of men in any status are forced to drop their standards unless they are lucky. Men in general are the second class citizens in the dating pool. As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner.It's only politically incorrect when the criticism and fault finding is directed at women
>Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses.Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid. The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy.I sort of love the notion of a farting pedestal. Alas, this is a bit too long for a t-shirt.
>"I see so many women who express that in social gatherings a guy doesn't seem interesting and intelligent enough in conversations but these same women usually put in the same effort themselves or even a lot less."So? I'm one of those women. I will not date a guy because they aren't interesting. I like to think that I am fun and interesting myself. That I'm worth waiting for that interesting guy. Maybe I'm not. But I'd rather be single than with someone who doesn't match that standard. "I also see many women on dating sites who claim that they are not interested in many men because their profiles and emails are not sparking and dynamic. Yet these same women have small profiles that are no where near original or show any form of above average intelligence. That said, nearly every woman who has sent the first email to me or have replied my emails have not made much effort in their emails. These same women will reject men for all the same things they are simply doing."Again, so? So what? Women who do that will remain single. If they are tired of being single they will change their standards. "The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy."No. Look, you could be talking about me in this statement. On dating sites I get more comments than I respond to. I have ignored guys because of lame first letters. It isn't because I think that my pussy gets me something. It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him. This is the big difference between most people and the MRAs. Most of us are single and we are okay with it. We'd rather be in a relationship but we don't feel as if we are entitled to them. If we ask someone out and get rejected we get bummed out and might bitch to our friends. We don't join a movement that degrades a whole gender and fights against equality.
>"As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner."Speaking personally, I find whining to be equally unattractive in both men and women. I can't speak for others, however.
>hahahaNick: Avoids topic by claiming women have no value other than pussy/face.Man this guy is comedy gold.
>"It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him."I think, missy, that you've hit on the essential prerequisite for having a successful dating and relationship experience: being completely, totally OK with being by yourself. Without that feeling, everything is driven by desperation, and bound to fail.
>So make a picture of it David.Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?
>"Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses."If women do what you describe then the result is that they will continue to be alone, that's the punishment. And if they would prefer to be alone than date you, why would you want to date them anyway? In a way, they are doing you a favor by not wasting either of your time. If I ask a man out of coffee or whatever, and he's like, Thanks for asking but I'm gay, or I'm married, or I don't really like the cut of your jib, anger would not be a justified reaction. He hasn't done anything for me to be angry about. @citizenlemonade: What's wrong with earnestness?
>Christine WE said…Yohan…if someone doesn't allow you to access the many available resources for men's health and looks, that would be a problem in your personal life and not a problem that ALL women have caused you. I did not say, it was caused by all women. But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. Check out any department store what they offer for men and for women regarding clothings, shoes, cosmeticas etc. etc.The other point is about the TIME. If you work about 60 hours per week, what can you do about yourself? And feminist-minded housewife is even expecting the husband to go home immediately and to start with housework.Finally money is also a major point worth for discussion. Men are earning money not for themselves only, but in many cases their money is for alimony, child-support, debits left over for the legal fees after divorce etc. etc…In general, it's much easier for women to look after themselves than for men.
>Captain Bathrobe said… ….. Nick is perfectly free to lower or change his standards; he's also free to try what he can to make himself a more attractive choice for a mate. What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you (rem. MRAs?) appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet. Feminists are talking to each other on the internet = female empowermentMRAs are talking to each other on the internet = whiningWhile Nick is perfectly free to lower his standards (thank you so much Mr./Mrs. Feminist for allowing this), it seems he is not politically correct when he is talking about his issues with other men.MRAs are not whining on the internet, but we see no reason to remain silent either – we are doing something about our problems. How we are solving our problems is not the feminists' business.Why should we lower ourselves and our standards? Only because feminists are telling us all the time how useless we are?
>David"Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid."This is true, however, a man is entitled to criticise something that he see's wrong. A man is simply entitled to disagree with how a woman thinks or believes in.As you were saying, "so what? How is this your business?"…the same can be said to feminists who criticise male sexuality on a constant basis which is a whole different story altogether.Elizabeth“Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?”There is a difference between having validated standards than there is to put a ridiculous price tag on your self.missyb9479 The thing is that many women seem to think that they don't have to “try” (that much) to prove that they are extra interesting, extra intelligent etc etc compared to what they expect out of a man. They just think being a woman with average looks is solely all they need to do. Yet they will aggressively reject men with the same mentality they have themselves. In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it.All in all, the reason why I am making these criticisms is not because I am angry at being single, the simple fact is that I just call out on the BS I constantly see far too often.When ever a man makes these types of criticisms, there will always be people from the PC crowd who will come up with such shaming tactics towards the complainer such as “he’s just showing anger of being single” or “he’s complaining because he can’t get laid.”The simple fact is that there is a complaint because there is something legitimate to complain about.
>Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed?
>"In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it."No, it isn't. Let me see if I can explain this again. I know how interesting I am. I know what it is like spending a Friday night with myself. If you asked me on a date then you'd have to project an evening that is AT LEAST as much fun as I'd have by myself. Why go otherwise?Does that mean that I have to appear at least as interesting to you as you do to me? No. It's on the person asking the other person out to do the convincing. Male or female. If a girl is asking a guy out (BTW, this is one of the things feminism has done and continues to do – empower women to take the lead in courtship) then she should try and sell herself as best she can. If he isn't interested that's okay. She shouldn't get angry at him or at all men. I'll go one step more. If a female co-worker asked me to go out to lunch, as a friend, I might reject them if I didn't think they were interesting enough. It isn't sexism at all. It's human nature to only want to spend time with people who are fun and interesting. This is subjective. I don't know why you think this common human thing is so wrong. If a guy asked you out (just to hang out) but he didn't seem very interesting, would you hang out with him? Do you have a duty to do so just because you're equally uninteresting?
>@ Elizabeth: Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick. @ Missy:You actually sound like a lot of fun!
>Missy: FWIW, my wife actually asked me out on our first date–and paid for dinner. Yay feminism!
>Lady Victoria von Syrus "Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick."I am sorry that your comprehension skills towards my opinion in is seriously lacks knowledge to what I exactly mean.But of course, you are a feminist bigot. This repsonse is pretty typical
>Yohan – we may never agree. Possibly we may live in differently structured societies. The world I inhabit – a large city, the UK, socio-economically above average but far from elite – bears no resemblance whatsoever to the world you seem to live in. The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous. As does the concept that ordinary men cannot attract ordinary women, as the ordinary women are feverishly chasing after debonair yacht-owning billionaires and snarling Harley-driving clones of the young Marlon Brando. Every single reasonably eligible man of my acquaintance has had absolutely no trouble attracting a normal woman for a long-term partner. The caveat is that these normal women are not, by any stretch of the imagination, devastatingly beautiful Hollywood goddesses. They are, quite simply, normal women. I do not know, and have never known, any normal women whatsoever who spurn normal men as sexual partners or other halves. The allegedly ‘normal men’ I have known who claim this is the case generally have not been ‘normal men’ at all, but have had something fairly serious wrong with them – such as an alarming nervous tic, an amusing lisp or a pungent reek of urine. By aiming for a plain jane girl-next-door type, they are aiming significantly out of their league. Ironically, they would be ashamed to be seen out in public with any women who would plausibly give them the time of day without requiring payment. If all the women you know are chasing tycoons and muscle-bound thugs, you are mixing with altogether too many shallow, vapid, mercenary glamour models and table dancers, who would not give you the time of day unless you won the lottery. And are, if I may cast aspersions, very obviously members of the world’s oldest profession. Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs where you are quite pathetically out of place, and fish in a pool where you have more chance of catching something other than chlamydia. Meet some normal women who may be interested in a relationship with a normal man like yourself. Tragically, you probably will not find them attractive enough to pursue. Watch the first ten minutes of Shallow Hal and weep. His tragedy is your own.You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. Some men will callously desert their loving and bewildered dependents for another woman, will manage to conceal their assets with devious expertise, and will leave their erstwhile family to struggle by on a pittance while they take Wife 2 shopping in Christian Dior. Meanwhile, some women will manage to take their equally loving and bewildered husbands for every penny they can squeeze out of him, and leave him in penury working round the clock to provide for their lazy parasitical selves and their bastard spawn. I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman. I have met some divorced single mothers whose lives are a living hell of expensive childcare, irregular maintenance payments that barely covered the bills, and juggling two jobs to keep food on the table. As with so many issues, the outcomes of divorce are not as cut-and-dried as you MRAs seem to believe. To put it bluntly, in some cases, the man gets well and truly shafted. In some other cases, the woman does. Again, perhaps I have been fortunate in life, and perhaps the legal system and socio-sexual norms simply work differently in this country. If this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit. The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all.
>FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies.
>David Futrelle said… Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed? I said, it is much more difficult for men to use frequently the beauty/healthcare consumer market compared to women. Not enough time and not enough money play a major role, it is not because men do not want to take care of their own health and looks.If 80 percent of certain goods/services are produced/offered for women only – and men are widely ignored as possible consumers, it shows clearly that health/beauty business is a lucrative market mainly with female customers and not with male customers.Women earn so much less than men, I wonder how they pay for all this expensive stuff related to female beauty/health/fashion?
>citizenlemonade said… ….. Yohan – we may never agree. ….. The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous. …..Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs …..Meet some normal women ….You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels, …..I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman. …..perhaps I have been fortunate in lifeIf this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit. The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all. Thank you for your interesting and informative reply. Not all men do have the same life and opportunities, some are more happier than the others obviously, and maybe you are right, you are on the lucky side. We cannot choose our parents.There are 100000s of disappointed Western men, who are not so lucky, you find them living overseas with foreign wives. The typical loser and his typical doormat in the stupid mindset of feminists.If you look up any internet dating service you will notice, that young men indeed outnumber young women 6:1 or even higher.Well, a man age 20, he can look for a girl about 20, but a young woman 20, can look for men at least up to 35 or 40…You mention you are living in a larger UK-city, but how would be the number of men:women in a rural area in UK? The same as in cities? I don't think so.Competition from older men is a serious problem for young men, who cannot offer much to a girl, tell me from where should they have all this money to pay for house, car, good life, travels etc. etc.? Young men can only do this with rich parents or as thugs who don't care about existing laws.About divorces, over 70 percent are requested by women and not by men. It's not 50/50 as you say.UK divorce laws are famous for being biased, with no pre-nups accepted.You did not mention in your reply that the financial risk is almost always with the man, hardly with the woman, especially in case of children. About myself I never met any Western woman in my life who did not demand money from me even for the smallest favor. I never visited night-clubs, btw. as I do not drink any alcohol, another reason to be a target of scorn by many Western females.I never met a woman who was truly a single and who had not a sexual relationship with several men at the same time and why should I line up, honestly?And if you ask me, where you can meet 'normal Western women' (what means 'normal women' for you, any definition for that?), I can only reply, after being married for over 35 years in Asia, that I have no idea and why shall I care. Btw., I was asking exactly the same question to many feminists. Where can I find a 'normal Western woman'? And not even one feminist could answer this question, but they continue explaining me something about my privileges. Which privileges? I don't see them. I never had any privilege because of my gender.
>David Futrelle said… FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies. January 26, 2011 4:21 AM I am not from *Northern* Europe, David.You need only to look up my profil etc. on the NiceGuy-Forum which you are browsing all the time using a fake-ID.About fantasies, well, what do you know about me, David?My life as a child and young man in Europe was not a fantasy, but for real and harsh personal experience with truly bad women.If there is a person, living in a fantasy world, it's you, David. I see no reason why I should be silent about it. For what reason? Because feminism cannot be wrong? Because it's not politically correct to talk about it in our own forums?
>I *HEART* citizenlemonade, especially this:"Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end." Bravo.
>FWIW, I've met and dated wonderful women in both the US and in Japan. And I'm a complete and total nerd–not an alpha by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just not convinced that blaming a whole class of people for one's own misfortunes is really the way to go in life. But, whatever, your mileage may vary.
>Also, I agree with citizenlemonade. Very well said, even if you are a libertarian. 🙂