WTF is a MGTOW? A Glossary

On this blog, MRA does not mean Magnetic Resonance Angiography

For newcomers to this blog, here’s a handy guide to some of the strange acronyms and lingo you’ll encounter here and in the “manosphere” in general. (For a definition of that term, see below.) I will update this entry periodically as needed.

First, the acronyms you’ll see most often here:

MRA: Men’s Rights Activist
MRM: Men’s Rights Movement

MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way MGHOW: Man Going His Own Way.

Ok, so what do those terms mean?

MRM: The Men’s Rights Movement: A loosely defined, but largely retrograde, collection of activists and internet talkers who fight for what they see as “men’s rights.” Unlike the original Men’s Movement, which was inspired by and heavily influenced by feminism, the self-described Men’s Rights Movement is largely a reactionary movement; with few exceptions, Men’s Rights Activists (or MRAs) are pretty rabidly antifeminist, and many are frankly and sometimes proudly misogynistic. Those who oppose the MRM are generally not against men’s rights per se; they are opposed to those who’ve turned those two words into a synonym for some pretty backwards notions.

MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way: As the name suggests, MGTOW is a lot like lesbian separatism, but for straight dudes. MGTOW often talk vaguely about seeking “independence” from western and/or consumer culture, and a few MGTOW try to live that sort of zen existence. But most of those who embrace the term have a deep hostility towards and/or profound distrust of feminists and women in general. Many MGTOW refuse to date “western women” and some try to avoid women altogether.  I think the Man Going His Own Way acronym MGHOW adds another layer of confusion to an already awkward acronym, so I use MGTOWer instead.

Some other terms and acronyms you’ll run across here:

Anglosphere: Countries in which English is the primary language, or, more narrowly, those countries that used to be British colonies. They are full of evil Western Women (see below).

Incel: Involuntarily Celibate. A term, and identity, adopted by some dateless guys (as well as some women, but it’s the men we’ll focus on here). While there is nothing shameful about being dateless, or a virgin, or having a really long dry spell sexually — most of us have been there at some point — the term “involuntarily celibate” seems to suggest that the world owes incels sex, and that women who turn down incel men for dates or sex are somehow oppressing them. For those (male, straight) incels who are genuinely socially awkward or phobic, this can be a self-defeating stance that can lead to bitterness towards women. And often does.

Mangina: Derogatory term used by MRAs, MGTOW, etc. to describe guys who disagree with them — e.g., me. You can figure out the various connotations of this term yourself.

The Manosphere: The loose collection of blogs, message boards, and other sites run by and/or read by MRAs, MGTOW, and assorted friendly Pick-up Artists. The primary source of material for this blog.

NAWALT: Not All Women Are Like That. Dudes in the manosphere make so many ridiculous and untrue generalizations about women that they’ve come up with their own little acronym to describe the most common reaction to their nonsense: “not all women are like that.” Remarkably, many seem to think that making a reference to NAWALT is actually some sort of clever rebuttal of their critics.

PUA: Pick-up Artist. PUAs are obsessed with mastering what they see as the ultimate set of techniques and attitudes — known as “Game” — that will enable them to quickly seduce almost any woman they want. There is a vast literature on “game” online, though PUA (insofar as it is not complete bullshit) is at its essence simply a male version of the age-old ploy of “playing hard to get.”

Western Women: Also known as WW. Evil harpies, at least according to many in the manosphere. Contrasted with “foreign women,” a term that (in the manosphere, at least) sometimes refers to all women outside the Anglosphere, but often refers to a subset of these women from poor and/or Eastern countries, mostly Asian, who are regarded as more pliable and thus more desirable to haters of “Ameriskanks” and other WW.

  1. Is that right though? If X is is combination of itself and something else, and you kept expanding it out, surely the X portion should disappear eventually and you should be left with other thing…

    *scratches head*

  2. At Bina,

    Males rape and oppress each other in Prison. Male on Male rape occurs, it’s just that men don’t want to bring it up because it devalues their self esteem and is a cause of suicide. Female on male rape also occurs, it’s just that men are socialized that they should enjoy it and it doesn’t really count. Hence this is why it’s under reported, there is also very little social institutions to help men with this problem and again victim blaming happens (similar to women). Except it’s different cause the man is expected to be able to fight off his rapist.

    At Kirby,

    No I wouldn’t use that argument that women are below men or are stupid etc. The one thing I did want to mention, is that house work/taking care of children should be seen as an investment of time seperate from work which also isn’t valued. But from an economic perspective, the kids should take care of you in your elder age, therefore it’s a form of investment that hopefully pays off in the future when you can’t take care of yourself (I know, I made lots of fallacies with that last statement). If you are talking about workplace. Yeah there is discrimination against women, and i’ve seen it but I don’t know how to properly “fight” it or combat it. The reason for this is for time for pregnancies and companies fear having to replace that human power for that time. There is also an expectation that women will spend more time at home because of children while men may be expected to stay at work longer even if they have children, I assume this is a residue from the traditional family unit of the 1950’s-80’s. I don’t have a viable or good solution for this. But yes, this does exist.
    Keep in mind, just like there are ignorant and dumb feminist, there are equally dumb and ignorant MRA’s. The popular not all feminist are like that “NAFALT” (my sister is what I would call one of them, she is finishing her bachelor’s in gender and women studies), I can also state that not all MRA’s are like that. The problem though is that many are like “that” and the moderates of the group don’t call out the extremist enough. If a man tells me all women are stupid… I’m going to call him out on it, but I do expect the same from a feminist (like my sister) if the same thing was said about men. Look at the Islam Problem and ISIS, it is really up to the “good” muslims to call out the extremist, if an outside force gets involved it’ll be seen as an attack on the whole group and will be accused of bigotry. I personally don’t believe people do this enough because they are afraid of being ejected from the group. The problem with this though is group dynamics, where groups eventually become an echo chamber and a circle jerk. This is why, once in a while, I’ll go visit places with opposing viewpoints, to shock myself and get me thinking again critically. I like seeing people counter my points and seeing if they hold up to criticism. yeah I may get annoyed, but I may also learn something new.

    You guys/gals have brought up some stuff I’ll need to contemplate, thank you for your time.

    SSJ

  3. Wage gape isn’t real…

    The wage gape’s gaping mouth gaping loosely open.

  4. To be honest, I came here in good will. I didn’t come here to troll, I don’t have the time to read 1000+ comments.

    There were FOUR responses to your last comment.

    Then you post a half page teal deer.

    But you try to tell us tl;dr.

    My problem with feminism is that it spits on the fact that men are human and seeks to make them more like women.

    Well. That explains you. Implies men=human>women. There you go.

    What men are asking for is valid proof that the act occured before you destroy his life, his name and value as a person.

    Never mind that even a rape conviction is hardly a life changing thing. Gang rape a girl on video? Never mind you poor things, we’ll drive her and her family out of town, burn down her house, and let you back on the football team. Can’t have that hussy ruining your life, now can we?

    Catcalling is generally done by men of low education. If you are talking about the NY video from last year, than the perpetrator’s were men from Hispanic and Black backgrounds. I am not a woman, so I obviously don’t notice it, but I rarely see catcalling, but if I do it’s from “thuggy” guys that try to display hyper masculinity as a method of showing their value because they don’t have much to offer or haven’t grown as a person (from my point of view).

    Oooh, classicism AND racism. Aren’t you a peach?

    And yet you just said, “Catcalling. I don’t think it’s a problem personally.”

    “I am not a woman, so I obviously don’t notice it, but I rarely see catcalling…”

    “Catcalling. I don’t think it’s a problem personally…”

    “I am not a woman, so I obviously don’t notice it, but I rarely see catcalling…”

    Unfortunately, the target of these catcalling are attractive women who will get annoyed after a while.

    Because being intimidated, objectified, dehumanized and threatened with rape several times a day every day is just… annoying. That’s all.

    Every time a man wishes to bring up a point that is against mainstream ideology, he is shamed into shutting up. Man up, shut up and do as you are told, or face the consequence which is the denial of sex and in turn value in society. Being a man, or the value of a man is related to how much resources he can get, and to how much female approval he can get.

    All of your problems with society and ‘oppression’ of men is coming from OTHER MEN. The reinforcement of toxic masculinity and the policing of other men is a problem of the Patriarchy. But must blame women for not giving men the sex.

    Your misogyny is showing.

  5. @SSJ:

    Males rape and oppress each other in Prison.

    Prisons are not an environment you can compare to the general population. Prison rape therefore is a fundamentally different thing from rape outside of prison. Different causes, different motivations, different enablers.

    It’s bad, but it’s not the comparable situation to rape of women outside of prison. The comparable situation would be rape of men outside of prison.

    Yeah there is discrimination against women, and i’ve seen it but I don’t know how to properly “fight” it or combat it.

    Read some feminist literature. We’ve got ideas for how to combat it; ideas that are actively fought against by MRAs and red pillers.

    You guys/gals have brought up some stuff I’ll need to contemplate, thank you for your time.

    It’s much easier to learn about people when you read their views. It’s much harder to do so when you leap into a confrontational environment, say they’re wrong about everything, then wait for them to argue against you.

    Learn about feminist from feminists, not from MRAs. It’ll do you a world of good.

  6. I am very sarcastic

    So are we, gumdrop. You’re getting the sarcasm right back at ya.

    Biologically, men are protective of women, this makes sense on a biological sense and is hard to ignore. If men didn’t protect women in the “wild”, the human race would have a hard time surviving. Men put women and children first, because this is how they are socialized and ensure that the family unit/human race continues. If someone hear’s a noise in the house, it’s up to the man to investigate (equality goes out the window). It is natural for men to sacrifice themselves for women, to do so is against human nature.

    Oh yay, evo psych bullshit. Prove that men are biological hard wired to protect women. And if “protecting women and children” is biologically hard-wired into men, then why do men have to be socialized to protect women and children?

    My problem with feminism is that it spits on the fact that men are human and seeks to make them more like women.

    Because the most dehumanizing thing in the world is to be like a woman, huh? The fact that you think Anita Sarkeesian and Jessica Valenti are examples of feminists spitting on men’s humanity is well, ludicrous, actually. Valenti and Sarkeesian have done nothing to “spit on the fact that men are human.”

    It demonizes them, makes them all out to be rapists and treats them like Schrodinger’s rapist, where they are threat even if they haven’t committed the act. No one is saying rape is good, and anyone who does is a mentally sick person or a person without a moral compass. What men are asking for is valid proof that the act occured before you destroy his life, his name and value as a person.

    You don’t understand the concept of Schrodinger’s rapist. It’s that, rapists don’t wear big signs around their necks proclaiming the fact they are rapists, and women are blamed for being raped. And, please, look something up. Look up the percentage that go unreported. And of those tapes that do go reported, what percentage actually go to trial? And of those rapes that actually go to trial, what percentage results in a conviction? And how many rape kits, that have the actual, physical evidence, are sitting in freezers right now without being processed? You go look all that up, then you come back here and we’ll talk about rape.

    Catcalling. I don’t think it’s a problem personally.

    Well, isn’t that cute. It’s really cute how you’re coming here telling women what they should think an how they should feel about things. Don’t like strangers on the street screaming sexualized comment at you, women? Think that this makes being in public as a woman just that much less safe? Does that make you uncomfortable? Don’t worry you’re pretty little heads, it’s not a problem because SSJ doesn’t think it is!

    Somebody can take the rest of that teal deer, I’m out running errands and my phones almost out of juice.

  7. Ah ha! I figured it out!

    If Patirarchy = A*Patriarchy+B*Gynocentrism, then Gynocentrism is also a combination of Patriarchy and Gynocentrism. So both expand and the ratios are preserved.

    *phew*

    Math still works, everyone! You can rest easy now!

  8. @ M

    The wage gape’s gaping mouth gaping loosely open.

    Nice callback! I’m laughing so hard… there’s tears! Hahahaha!

  9. Oh Schrodinger’s rapist…

    I have in my possession a bowl of green m&ms. 5% of those m&ms contain a non-visible poison. I then reach into the bowl, grab an m&m, and hand it to you. Do you eat it?

    You don’t? Why? Do you not trust this m&m? C’mon, only a small portion of m&ms are poison, and I would never hand you one of those, would I? Why are you so untrusting? Fuck you.

  10. @ kirby

    Nailed it. The math AND Schrodingers rapist.

  11. So, is patriarchy not real? Or is it a biotruth? I know that manospherians argue both but not usually in the same post.

    I really hope troll is lying about being a counselor. That’s horrifying. Although I’m not sure why he helps young women “stop prostituting themselves” if he thinks an ideal world is that in which women trade sex for protection and resources.

    Also, if men are hardwired to protect us, catcalling shouldn’t exist at all. Scaring us and making us uncomfortable is against nature after all.

  12. The Schrodinger’s rapist misunderstanding annoys the crap out of me. I think it’s willful misunderstanding, frankly.

    They know we’re saying rapists look and act like everybody else so we can’t tell they’re dangerous until its too late, but they’d rather shout #NotAllMen to shut us up than have to think about (or heaven forbid, do something about) rape culture. It makes them uncomfortable to realize that by being part of the culture, it makes them (all of us) part of the problem unless we actively choose to be part of the solution.

  13. I love how manospherians think they are so wise and logical and yet they’re the ones who apparently think that The Flintstones was a documentary.

  14. kirbywarp:

    If Patirarchy = A*Patriarchy+B*Gynocentrism, then Gynocentrism is also a combination of Patriarchy and Gynocentrism. So both expand and the ratios are preserved.

    So, if I’m following this correctly , would that also mean that, if gynocentrism is a combination of patriarchy and gynocentrism, then when feminists say they are fighting the patriarchy they’re also fighting gynocentrism?

  15. ” I can also state that not all MRA’s are like that. The problem though is that many are like “that” and the moderates of the group don’t call out the extremist enough.”

    Sounds very much like the “moderate” gamergaters, and the general consensus there is that if you’re a moderate belonging to a toxic group, with toxic figureheads, maybe you should distance yourself from it and work towards your goals outside of a group that hates women. Feminists may even help, lots of feminists oppose things like infant circumcision and the draft.

    Also, from what I’ve seen, feminists have lots of men’s issues covered in their opposition to toxic masculinity.

  16. Thanks, sunny, though the math took awhile and I got the m&m analogy from elsewhere.

    It’s funny, actually. I’ve been reading up on quantum mechanics because I found a guy who could explain some of the fundamentals in a way I can actually sorta kinda understand.

    Wanna know how Schrodinger’s cat really works? No? Oh, ok then.

    … Just kidding. Quantum mechanics ho!

    So, according to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, particles can inhabit a “superposition” of states at the same time. When they are “observed,” they collapse into one state or another more or less at random. The Schrodinger’s cat thought experiment tried to show how strange this is by saying that something as complex as a cat can be in a state of living and dying simultaneously until the box is opened.

    Not.. quite…

    The better interpretation these days is called the Many Worlds interpretation. It doesn’t assume there are many worlds. Rather, it derives the fact that there would be many worlds from basic assumptions. Even more fun, the “many worlds” are basically like if two people took a plane to different islands and never talked, never went to the same websites, never had friends of friends of friends of friends in common, and basically never could interact or be affected by the actions of the other.

    Same “world,” but essentially separated.

    In the Many Worlds interpretation, particles don’t exist. Waves don’t exist. What we think of as particles are basically like little spikes on a bedsheet; all part of the same fabric, and no real way to apply an identity to them unless they don’t come near each other. Even a “single” particle can be made of multiple spikes (called “amplitudes”).

    So the radioactive atom in the Schrodinger’s Cat experiment is made up of “amplitudes” that occupy the “decayed” and “not decayed” positions. When that particle then interacts with the detector (which releases the poison if it detects the atom decayed), the amplitudes of the particle get entangled with and cannot be considered independent of the particles of the detector.

    Because the detector does two extremely different things depending on how it interacts with the decayed/not-decayed atom, both things happen and it creates a situation like the two people flying on planes. Initially they go to the same airport and can talk to each other, but then they go to separate gates (which are physically close) and start a reaction of events that take them very far away. The two possibilities travel far apart from each other and no longer are able to interact with each other. They become two different worlds.

    In one world, poison is released and the cat dies. In the other, poison is not released and the cat lives. Both happen, it’s just that the two worlds become separate, like a movie film being split into two, each carrying the same image. One version of the experimenter will find the cat dead, the other will find the cat alive.

    Quantum physics is fun!

  17. @Sparky:

    So, if I’m following this correctly , would that also mean that, if gynocentrism is a combination of patriarchy and gynocentrism, then when feminists say they are fighting the patriarchy they’re also fighting gynocentrism?

    That’s exactly what it means. :) Both in math and in real life (at least, feminists are fighting the things that MRAs label “gynocentrism,” like only men being required to be drafted, or chivalry).

    It’s kind of cool actually… What MRAs think of as gynocentrism is really just a component of patriarchy in reality, and this math reflects that.

  18. I think the thing that is being missed that men and women are different (still equal) in the sense that they operate and think differently. Everything that I’ve posted has been put down, or told it doesn’t matter cause this is worse and women have it worse. Things like male suicide, males being raped, male sexual abuse, male genital mutilations. All these things instead of trying to find a solution or some help, we are told to suck it up cause it’s other men’s fault. Everything is men’s fault, so male issues don’t matter.
    What do you want men to do then? We want to help men, so what do we do? I help boys 5 days a week, boys that have been raped, boys that have social issues, boys with drug issues, boys with attachment issues. I’ve seen men grow up shattered, go on to abusive relationships where they get abused cause they have no self esteem. I’ve been to funerals of boys who commit suicide because they fail to see value in their lives. The resources aren’t there, and I live in Canada. You see privilege, I see a curse.
    I’ve worked with a man who killed himself because he couldn’t deal with his mental illness ; he lusted after children. He knew it was wrong, and didn’t want to do it, so he killed himself instead of becoming the monster he didn’t want to become, never once did he ever even touch a child and he didn’t didn’t want children because he feared, he stayed very far away from any children. There is no help for people like this. Do you think that he could get any help from a feminist, with their biases, their mysandry?
    Domestic abuse against men is real, it’s not just a women’s issue. I’ve lived it in my childhood, and I’ve had women hit me but I am unable to go to the police because I’ll be shamed. When I tell people, I broke up with XXX cause she hit me, they have the nerve to ask me what I did to deserve it. So I leave, I take back control of my life, I give up on women and I go MGTOW.

  19. @SSJ:

    Boring, weeping rhetoric is not welcome here. If “everything that I’ve posted has been put down, or told it doesn’t matter cause this is worse and women have it worse,” then provide quotes and respond to those individuals or leave and go do the things you think are important.

    “Think of the men” is just as irritating as “think of the children!” You’re attempting to guilt people for something they don’t actually believe.

  20. @SSJ

    The things you are describing (male suicide, men being shamed for showing emotion or reporting abuse) are all due to toxic masculinity, which says that men shouldn’t show emotion. Thus, men end up without support systems or outlets for emotion when they find themselves in terrible situations, regardless of how they got there.

    The problem with your argument, though, is that toxic masculinity is a product of the patriarchy, which constantly tells boys to “man up.” By breaking down traditional gender roles, feminists are working to eliminate this toxic masculinity and solve some of these problems that are facing men. Yes, we focus on problems facing women, but feminism benefits men too.

  21. All these things instead of trying to find a solution or some help, we are told to suck it up cause it’s other men’s fault. Everything is men’s fault, so male issues don’t matter.

    Yes, because finding out what the root of the problem is and what is actually causing the harm is never the first step to actually solving the problem! /sarcasm

    Heaven forbid we suggest what the source of the problem is and ask you to solve that instead of tilting at windmills.

    Patriarchy and toxic masculinity being the source of mens’ problems isn’t saying that mens’ problems don’t matter, it’s saying, “We know! We’ve been fighting this shit all along!”

    How about you help? Instead of making it worse by reinforcing the same old harmful shit like;

    “Biologically, men are protective of women”

    or

    “It is natural for men to sacrifice themselves for women”

    or

    “Catcalling is generally done by men of low education”

    That shit right there, that’s throwing other men under the bus in a big way. You, sir, are part of mens’ problems.

  22. If MRAs were actually helping men instead of just saying misogynistic things all the time, feminists wouldn’t have a problem with them.

    Ssj,
    We point out that feminism isn’t to blame for men’s problems because the manosphere is constantly blaming us for them.

    Because despite the fact that (according to red pillers) men are physically stronger, more logical and built all of civilization, somehow we’ve managed to oppress them. Because butts.

    We’re not telling mentally ill men to suck it up. We’re telling you guys to stop blaming us for problems we didn’t create.

  23. Do you think that he could get any help from a feminist

    This is a derailing tactic. Truth is, feminists do more to help and support victims of abuse and rape of all genders than any other single group. Feminists removed the gendered language from rape law, bring men and boys under the protection of the laws against rape. Same thing with domestic violence. Most shelters, even ones that accept men, are run by feminists. It isn’t feminist to victim blame.

    A feminist would have been much less likely to ask you what you did to deserve ‘it’. I had a housemate who was raped walking home from class very late one day. He was trying to buy some weed and was attacked instead. I’m the only person who didn’t scold him for being out late or walking alone or buying weed, or try to shame or blame him at all. I’m also the only one who identified as a feminist. I was his entire support system while he dealt with the trauma. Even his family rejected him.

    There’s even a study that shows that feminists are less sexist towards men than the general population. http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/33/2/216.abstract

    You need to get your head out of the sand.

  24. I’m reading “waaaaah, the straw feminists in my head are saying male issues don’t matter, bias and misandry!”

    Anyone else reading that?

  25. Fully realizing the futility of it, I’ll just pop in to say to SSJ: I originally discovered feminism after observing a case which MRAs might call “misandrist”, that is, where a male victim of domestic violence calling the emergency hotline about his wife physically assaulting him was shamed by the operator for “not being man enough to handle his woman.”

    The person taking the call? Not surprisingly, they were not a woman or a feminist, but a male cop holding outdated, conservative, patriarchal values regarding gender roles. Roles MRAs, and apparently you, are taking for granted instead of challenging. In the cop’s mind, the man was not living up to the male ideal, and deserved to be ridiculed and to have his plight ignored because of the crime of being “the woman in the relationship”, that is, the victim. Do you not see how deeply that worldview is steeped in misogyny? Do you not see how fucked up that is?

    Turned out feminism offered the most coherent, most thoroughly researched, most realistic model that explained this predicament perfectly while requiring no conspiracy theories or ad hoc solutions that MRAs love to rely on in their fight against equality. I suggest you sit your butt down and actually read about feminism before offering your misinformed views on it to people who are much more well-versed in social justice than you. There are a lot of feminism 101 sites to get you started.

    Going to MRAs to get help is like going to a quack to get help with your back problems. At best, you’ll be throwing away your money (to Paul Elam). At worst, you’ll end up with an aggravated back pain. These guys are not your friends.

  26. @Spindrift:

    I know I am. I’m also getting a bit of whiplash from this:

    You guys/gals have brought up some stuff I’ll need to contemplate, thank you for your time.

    To this:

    Everything that I’ve posted has been put down, or told it doesn’t matter cause this is worse and women have it worse. Things like male suicide, males being raped, male sexual abuse, male genital mutilations. All these things instead of trying to find a solution or some help, we are told to suck it up cause it’s other men’s fault. Everything is men’s fault, so male issues don’t matter.

    You can really see the work of that “everything” word, erasing all the positive aspects that he was originally taking away from his time here. It’s like a different person started using the same name.

  27. Also afraid of rape culture, so the smart ones stay away from sexual activities cause we don’t want to go to jail, get our lives ruined and get raped in jail. Also afriad of false accusations, cause again it’ll ruin your life.

    I find it interesting how our latest mansplainer has separated ‘going to jail for sexual activities’ and ‘false rape accusations’. Why is it that these types always jump to the conclusion that sex has to be something degrading and hateful towards women? It’s like they have no baseline for sexual activities aside from rape and boundary pushing.

  28. I find it interesting how our latest mansplainer has separated ‘going to jail for sexual activities’ and ‘false rape accusations’.

    Good point. So if false rape is that second point, then that first point is…actual rape?

  29. They don’t want to be falsely accused of rape because… they’d go to jail and get raped?

  30. I find it interesting that SSJ thinks false tape accusations are so rampant that men need to avoid women entirely to be safe from them, but Schrodinger’s rapist? Schrodinger’s rapist is hateful, dehumanizing misandry.

  31. That should read “false rape accusations,” not “false tape accusations.”

  32. Would a False Tape Accusation be something Richard Nixon had to deal with? *innocent*

  33. Buttercup Q. Skullpants

    So now we have Schrodinger’s False Rape Accuser? My head is starting to spin.

    @LBT There you go, C.R.E.E.P.- shaming again… :D

  34. @sparky,

    I like how women are told to take responsibility for themselves and their safety and do all that they can to avoid being raped because there’s just no way that we can stop men raping us, but when we exercise precautions and carefully evaluate people whom we’re just meeting (following the Schrodinger’s Rapist principle), that’s suddenly misandry.

    Also, aren’t women’s-only self-defense classes also frequently shunned for being misandry, even though those classes are meant to help women stop rapists? God, it’s almost like they don’t want us to take responsibility for our safety. They just want to claim that we should so that they can blame us if we get raped.

    Anyways, SSJ asked why the wage gap hasn’t caused men to be forced out of jobs…

    You’re forgetting that the wage gap is due to numerous factors, each of which point to women’s work outside of the home being less valued than men’s. Women might get pregnant, have kids, and work fewer hours? Lower pay for the same jobs. Women’s work (i.e. jobs typically done by women) isn’t as valued as men’s work? Lower pay for everyone in the women’s fields, but especially for the women. So, if women are being paid less because their work seen as being less valuable than men’s work and if men are seen as a better investment, then of course men won’t be forced out of the job market. Not if employers are worried that their female employees will take off too much time for the kids.

  35. grumpyoldnurse

    I’ve worked with a man who killed himself because he couldn’t deal with his mental illness ; he lusted after children. He knew it was wrong, and didn’t want to do it, so he killed himself instead of becoming the monster he didn’t want to become, never once did he ever even touch a child and he didn’t didn’t want children because he feared, he stayed very far away from any children. There is no help for people like this. Do you think that he could get any help from a feminist, with their biases, their mysandry?

    So, how, exactly did the MRA help him? Why should feminists have to help men who lust after children instead of protecting the children from the potential abuser? Oh, right, I forgot. It’s always about teh menz. Sorry, my silly laydee brain got confuzzled and I thought we should protect potential victims instead of potential abusers. Women and children first, indeed…

  36. My problem with feminism is that it spits on the fact that men are human and seeks to make them more like women.

    That’s all I needed to see from the troll. Kindly fuck off and Go Your Own Way for once.

  37. unknown traveler

    When will men realize u can’t reason with feminist?

    Guys, their minds only run on misogyny. It is the fuel that fortifies their ideology.

    Listen to me carefully. No matter how many statistics u use as proof, whether u bring up males have needs and feelings too, or that human beings should simply b kind to one another. It WILL, and I repeat, It WILL be re-purposed as misogyny. These women have no sense of wrong. They have no inner conviction. They do not refect and they lack humility. U can’t reason with someone Like that whether they b man or woman. So just stop already.

  38. “I wouldn’t stress out about MGTOW, I would just continue living my life as if they didn’t exist, they are just a bunch of guys who don’t want to get married.”

    A bunch of guys who don’t want to get married yet still obsessing with women on the whole…great advice from you actually but I think you should tell the same thing towards the MGTOW…

  39. “Listen to me carefully. No matter how many statistics u use as proof, whether u bring up males have needs and feelings too, or that human beings should simply b kind to one another.”

    be kind to on another?!
    DUDE,we’re not the one who engaged in mindless troll making other poeple fears for their lives…We’re not the one who sent death threats or rape threats to other people…we’re no the one who commit mass shoooting simply because we can’t get laid!!!

    be kind to one another?!

    What better advice to follow than your own?

  40. “When will men realize u can’t reason with feminist?”

    Trust me most feminists has already lost hope to reason with these misogynistic creatures..

  41. ….gee, thanks unknown traveler. I am inspired by your words of wisdom about how to properly deal with feminists by not dealing with them.

    Please do take your own advice.

    Necrothread is boringly necroed.

  42. “Things like male suicide, males being raped, male sexual abuse, male genital mutilations.”

    This is the fault of feminism?
    I don’t think I have seen a feminist that would go and tell a man to commit suicide although I have seen a misogynist trolling around telling women to go killed themselves…if a male being raped by a man(or woman),blamed the rapist,if someone tells you to shut up about it,it’s not the fault of the feminists,but the people who makes you to stay silent about it..I personally know a man who was raped,the only sympathy he receives are from the women while most of his male buddies were making fun of him(it was just a joke!! Bla Bla).You want to blame the feminists for this?!

    Male genital mutilations?!
    Again you expect the feminist to answer for this?Male genitals mutilations are originated from the middle east which are heavily patriachal societies and again you implied the feminists are responsible for this?!

    “So I leave, I take back control of my life, I give up on women and I go MGTOW.”

    If I were a MGTOW.I wouldn’t be bothered about women or feminists in general,I would just happily going my own way…

  43. unknown traveler | March 3, 2015 at 7:46 pm

    When will men realize u can’t reason with feminist?

    We’re actually quite reasonable. It’s just that sometimes (most of the time), we’re presented with very unreasonable ideas that we don’t agree with.

    Guys, their minds only run on misogyny. It is the fuel that fortifies their ideology.

    Wait, wut? You do realize that misogyny is the hatred of women, right? Did you just say that feminists hate women?

    Or are you saying that the fact that there is hatred for women proves that there is a need for feminism? Because that’s actually true.

    Listen to me carefully. No matter how many statistics u use as proof, whether u bring up males have needs and feelings too, or that human beings should simply b kind to one another. It WILL, and I repeat, It WILL be re-purposed as misogyny.

    Except your “statistics” keep getting proven to be bullshit, no one said that men don’t have feelings or needs as well (we just don’t think that they get to take priority over our needs, for safety or otherwise, or our feelings), men can be, and are, feminists/feminist allies as well, and maybe if y’all stopped acting like we’re not human too and stopped acting like we’re house slaves/baby-makers/boner toys, then maybe we’d be a little less sarcastic and “mean” about it.

    These women have no sense of wrong. They have no inner conviction. They do not refect and they lack humility. U can’t reason with someone Like that whether they b man or woman. So just stop already.

    I do too have a sense of wrong! Rape, women getting paid less than men for the same work, women being beaten and killed for telling a grown man “no” = Wrong. See?

    We can’t “refect”. That’s not a word. And if you meant “reflect”, we can’t do that either. We’re not a shiny, polished surface. We’re made of fleshy bits, just like you!

    As for internal, “emotional” or “spiritual” reflection: We are perfectly capable of that. Everyone is. You just don’t think we’re doing it right, Mr. Traveler, and quite frankly, I couldn’t give any fewer fucks.

    See, this is why we can’t have nice discussions. Y’all march in here with it in your heads that we just “can’t be reasoned with” instead of actually trying to start a discussion that doesn’t start with “why are you all such bitches?”, “what about my boner?” or “Why can’t I fuck a twelve year old?!”.

    If you came here in good faith, and actually wanted to have a discussion instead of making a sad attempt to prove your feminist strawperson is fact, we’d be more than happy to have one with you.

    Until then, go sit in the corner and think about what you did. No necroing threads! Don’t make me get the spray bottle!

  44. “Listen to me carefully. No matter how many statistics u use as proof?”

    What statistics?

  45. “You see mysandry everywhere”

    Which mysandry?

  46. Guys, their minds only run on misogyny. It is the fuel that fortifies their ideology.

    Hey now, I happen to have a little brain-scanny thingy with me, and I can prove our minds don’t “run on misogyny,” whatever that means.

    Let me just… mmf… put this here… urg… aaannnddd… ff… There we go. Let’s listen in, shall we?

    Misogyny misogyny

    Uh…

    Misogyny misogyny

    Wait one sec

    Misogyny misogyny

    Huh.

    Misogyny misogyny

    Actually, this is kinda catchy.

    Misogyny misogyny (uh)
    Misogyny misogyny (oh no no)
    Misogyny misogyny (uh)
    Misogyny misogyny (Here we go!)

    Every day, every night
    Out of mind, out of sight
    Feel the grind, feel the plight
    The drumbeat (uh)
    Of lives you don’t live.
    (Misogyny misogyny, oh no no)

    You can simply tune it out
    Wonder what they’re talkin’ ’bout
    Say that you don’t hear their shout
    Their sorrows (uh)
    Their lives you don’t live.
    (Misogyny misogyny, oh no no)

    (mmmmmmmm)
    Background noise is easy to ignore
    When you don’t hear it.
    (mmmmmmmm)
    Chronic pain is easy to ignore
    When you don’t feel it.

    Misogyny mysogyny (uh)
    Misogyny mysogyny (oh no no)
    Misogyny mysogyny (uh)
    Misogyny mysogyny (oh no no)

    Men can want, men can need
    If you prick, men will bleed
    Men are dirt for the seed
    Of suffering (uh)
    Of lives we all live
    (Misogyny misogyny, oh no no)

    Men can triumph, men can fall
    Men experience it all
    Everything except the call
    Of sexism (uh)
    In lives we all live
    (Misogyny misogyny, oh no no)

    (mmmmmmm)
    Background noise is easy to ignore
    When you don’t hear it.
    (mmmmmmm)
    Chronic pain is easy to ignore
    When you don’t feel it.

    (oooooooooh)
    You’re a traveler in unknown lands.
    You leave your footprint on the sands
    Of worn out paths and dirtied hands

    (aaaaaaaaaah)
    Blind your eyes to block out what you fear,
    Just pretend it’s your words they don’t hear,
    Preach your love while never drawing near

    And just ignore the

    Misogyny misogyny (uh)
    Misogyny misogyny (oh no no)
    Misogyny misogyny (uh)
    Misogyny misogyny (oh no no)

    One day the drumbeat will fall silent.

    Misogyny misogyny

    And on that day, the silence will be deafening.

    Misogyny misogyny

    So before you invoke the suffering of man to negate the suffering of woman,

    Misogyny misogyny

    Think very carefully about where your motivations lie.

    Misogyny misogyny

    Listen. Don’t let the drumbeat drown the voices out.

    misogyny misogyny

    And ask yourself if you will celebrate its passing,

    misogyny

    Or mourn the loss of your unearned privilege.

    And ask if you truly care about men, or simply want the silence to stop.

  47. kirbywarp

    You just might have an alternative career ahead of you. Well done.

  48. unknown traveler

    I love feminism. Its brings female nature out in its most purest form. So selfish, so dark. The truth is men would have never understood women without it. I already know you prioritize yourselves before men. The problem is men prioritize women before themselves. young Men are taught to put women first not realizing women aren’t minded to do the same. Its time for men to let that concept go.

    I had a lovely conversation with your feminist friend Katie some months ago. She said something divine. (Maybe women don’t care for male appreciation.) Thats when it clicked, its so simple. The truth is feminist don’t care for male appreciation. They care male sacrifice. They only care themselves. The needs of women and nothing more. Its so glorious.

    So what’s wrong with men teaching other men to prioritize themselves over women. To live only for their children and their selves. To cut off resposibilty to women. After all she is strong and indepedant. It was women that said men are obsolete. She doesn’t care for his appreciation nor does she give it respect. So what’s wrong with letting women fend for themselves.

    Unfortunately this isnt embedded in men, instead it must be taught. The only way this can b taught is by understanding female nature.

  49. Honestly, bro, no one cares if men take care of themselves first and foremost. That’s kind of what’s expected of most adults. I’m not sure you seem to be talking like this is some kind of way to punish women for daring to care for themselves.

    Well, actually, I suppose I do know why. It’s because MTGOWs are like those kids that threaten to run away from home, spouting things like “YOU’LL MISS ME WHEN I’M GONE! AND THEN YOU’LL BE SORRY YOU WEREN’T NICER TO ME” and then never actually leave because they want to watch as people (fail to) collapse in despair at the thought of their loss.

  50. unknown traveler

    Fair enough. I believe there are men like that in mgtow too. I want thos men to let those feelings go. Because to have those feelings show that u still care about women. Believe it or not It’s not so easy to switch those feelings off. Its a process to rewrite years of programming. Still it needs to be done for men to grow and effectivly move on. Women shouldnt feel punished from what I wrote. They should just accept that this is the new masculinity and allow men to live it and teach it as they please.

  51. @unknown traveler

    You keep talking about how men should just go solo and move on without women yet here you are on a feminist blog telling the regulars how awful we are. That doesn’t quite line up with “letting those feelings go”, in fact you sound just like all the other MGTOWs that pop up here like gophers.

    If your movement is all about being independent from women why do you care what women and feminists do in their own spaces?

  52. Maybe they should start up their own MGTOW monastery(manastery?).
    With weightlifting, and beer, and mansports, and no internet connection. The internet is full of teh wimminz, it’s like a man can’t even go his own way anymore without finding himself necroing threads on feminist blogs!

  53. I already know you prioritize yourselves before men. The problem is men prioritize women before themselves. young Men are taught to put women first not realizing women aren’t minded to do the same.

    Yeah, no. There is some serious horseshit piling up high in this thread. My interest in feminism stems from a hope that we can somehow find ways to improve the lives of women everywhere and make the world a better place. If you feel that’s your cue to be a whiny child so be it.

    Feel free to engage in all the silly naval gazing you want but spare us your wobbly goofball proclamations about “female nature”.

    The truth is feminist don’t care for male appreciation. They care male sacrifice. They only care themselves. The needs of women and nothing more. Its so glorious.

    You should care more about your grammar and clarity of thought. You should also google “male ego”.

    I had a lovely conversation with your feminist friend Katie some months ago.

    Is Katie collectively a friend to all of us through the power of feminism?

  54. @brooked: If we are all David, then maybe our friends are all Katie. THE PLOT THICKENS.

  55. “They should just accept that this is the new masculinity and allow men to live it and teach it as they please.”

    No problem but there is one problem when you said “I love feminism. Its brings female nature out in its most purest form. So selfish, so dark.”

    If is this how you teach your own MGTOW ‘herd’,then yes I must said I do have a problem with it…

    i couldn’t care less if a man wants TO GTOW,but please don’t make it seems like women are the worst things that happen to you…
    Don’t fucking tell me that women prioritize themselves over men,you basically undermine every mother’s effort in raising their own son..

  56. Personally Katie and I consider each other acquaintances, not really friends.

    Also, refect is a word, it’s just archaic. It means to eat and drink. Being accused of not refecting, while inaccurate and probably the result of a typo, is pretty refreshing IMO. It’s a nice break from the narrative that women constantly stuff our faces as a covert fat-gaining boner-killing operation, or that we demand that random men on the street buy us fancy dinners.

  57. What is with the glossary trolls this week?

    Maybe women don’t care for male appreciation.

    That’s true. Maybe we don’t care for male appreciation, particularly if it is based only on our looks. We prefer things like respect for our choices and boundaries, acknowledgement of our achievements, and recognition that we are, in fact, a diverse group of individuals with unique goals and opinions (just like men).

  58. Because to have those feelings show that u still care about women.

    The men who “care about women” in the sense that you’re describing don’t actually care about women as human beings, as equals. They “care about them” in a way that an entitled, selfish, misogynistic douchenozzle with delusions of grandeur “cares” about anything or anyone: as an investment in their own personal well-being and nothing else.

    The problem with the world isn’t women learning that they have value outside of how they are perceived by men. That’s a good thing. The problem with the world is the age-old mindset that celebrates selfishness over the genuine care of the well-being of other human beings. A mindset based on nothing but unempathetic calculation. The Simpsons once put it perfectly: “How often have you driven by a fire and thought ‘How can this benefit me?'”

    That’s how every misogynist thinks; they don’t give a shit about how women actually experience the “care and appreciation” men force upon them, they only care about how the world can give them more, even at the expense of others, and how they can still rationalize things so that they appear the reasonable ones. Coincidentally, this is also how libertarians and other free market capitalists think, which is why most MRAs identify as libertarians.

    Women shouldnt feel punished from what I wrote.

    So, when you wrote that feminism is, and I quote,

    So selfish, so dark. The truth is men would have never understood women without it.

    that’s not a positive claim about the nature of women? Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.

    They should just accept that this is the new masculinity and allow men to live it and teach it as they please.

    Except that acting like an entitled asshat whose maturity hasn’t been developing at all in the last couple of decades is not a “new” form of masculinity. Also, immature bullshit with no basis in facts should not be left unchallenged. It’s for the same reason we shouldn’t allow Young Earth Creationism to be taught as a scientific theory.

    And, yet again, I am a man, and I think MGTOW are fuckin’ ridiculous. I think the masculine model that you’re celebrating is terrible, hurtful, restricting and old-fashioned. Most men do. Don’t presume to speak for the sea when you’re but a puddle.

    She doesn’t care for his appreciation nor does she give it respect.

    What, exactly, would that “care” and “respect” encompass? Why, in your opinion, do women need to “appreciate” men for being men, instead of just appreciating them as fellow human beings who are neither better nor worse than themselves? Why, for the love of Pete, is it not enough that all human beings show a basic courtesy and kindness to each other as equals? What makes you so utterly insecure that you require the adoration of half of the human population to feel worthwhile, and, most importantly, what gives you the enormous sense of entitlement to argue that the other half of humanity should be required to show you adoration based on nothing but your gender?

    Also, this:

    So what’s wrong with letting women fend for themselves.

    Yeeeah, if only our society was equal*. But it isn’t. As long as women are treated as second-class citizens, as long as women get paid less for the same job, as long as workplaces show preferential treatment towards men, as long as reproductive health is made harder for women to get, etc., pretending that leaving behind those who do not have the same rights and opportunities as you do is “equal treatment” is pretty goddamn twisted. We live in a patriarchy and you know it. Otherwise, you’d never think a ridiculous stunt like “MGTOW” would actually make a difference in the world.

    Thanks to the efforts of feminism, the scale that was previously heavily weighed in men’s favor is starting to shift in a more equal direction. This makes entitled assholes extemely angry, and as they are blinded by privilege, they genuinely believe that they are in the position they are due to their own efforts and supreme natural abilities instead of luck. That’s why they think depriving the fallen world of their shining presence is somehow a tremendous blow to the people who fail to “know their place”.

    Coincidentally, this is also how libertarians and other free market capitalists think. No wonder “MGTOW” has the same ring to it as “going Galt”.

    *Note: I happen to be a dirty-ass hippie commie, so I don’t think anyone should be “left to fend for themselves”. That sounds like an awful model for a society.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 15,526 other followers

%d bloggers like this: