Alternate Open Thread


I’m not going to do a regular post today.

I set up an open thread last night for those who want to discuss, or simply process, the Paris attacks.

For those of you who need to take a breather from the tragedy, here is an alternate open thread to discuss, well, alternate things. But let’s not talk about MRAs and the rest today. Let’s take a break from them too. (And this is, of course, a no troll, no MRA thread.)

The photograph I’ve used for this post? It’s just a picture of a man and his bunny in Paris on a happier day.

Open Thread for discussion of terror attacks in Paris

Paris tonight

Paris tonight

There have been multiple terror attacks in Paris. As I write this, there are reportedly dozens dead, and hostages being held.

I hope all WHTM readers in Paris are safe, and that this nightmare doesn’t get any worse.

This is a NO TROLLS/NO MRAs thread.

“Men who didn’t worship p***y didn’t pass on their seed,” and other lessons from MGTOW biology class

Drink that SCIENCE in!

Drink that SCIENCE in!

So why are women such predatory babies and men such manginas? Let Reddit’s User-31f64a4e lay down some science for ya! In a discussion of women’s predatory nature in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, Mr. 31f64a4e explains that:

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Red Pill director Cassie Jaye is accusing me of sending “bullying emails.” Here are the emails. Decide for yourself.

Cassie Jaye, in her interview with Sargon of Akkad

Cassie Jaye, in her interview with Sargon of Akkad

I had hoped to avoid writing about Cassie Jaye and her strange journey into Red Pill-land again so soon.

Jaye, you may recall, is the apparently former feminist who is now directing a movie about the Men’s Rights movement that is, as she herself put it in one interview, “kind of being funded by men’s rights advocates.” A Voice for Men, the Men’s Rights garbage site at the heart of her film, actively helped her to raise money on Kickstarter for postproduction work on the film.

It’s no secret that I have some rather serious doubts that she will provide the “balanced” look at the Men’s Rights movement that she has been promising. I have written several posts here highly critical of her and the direction her Red Pill documentary seems to be going.

So I can understand that she’s not a big fan of me at the moment. Unfortunately, she’s responded to my criticisms with, well, lies.

And now she’s added a new lie to the pile, claiming in a recent interview with YouTube blabber Sargon of Akkad that I sent her “bullying” emails. After dismissing my concerns about her film as a “smear campaign,” she went on to say that

David Futrelle was also emailing me privately – two different emails since the Kickstarter – and so I made a statement video, I think a week ago, trying to just have something on record where I’m explaining the false allegations that Futrelle is reporting and so I had my say out there on record. And something maybe I should have included in that it hasn’t just been his articles and tweets; it’s also been private emails. Well, I think the word that most closely describes it is bullying.

(The interview is more than two hours long; she first brings me up about ten minutes in, and makes the comments above at around the 23 minute mark, after being asked about harassment.)

Jaye is right about one thing: I sent her two emails since the Kickstarter started. But to describe them as “bullying” is beyond bizarre.

So let’s take a look at them, shall we?

I sent the first email before she solved her funding problems by giving an interview to Breitbart, and when I still thought there was a chance Jaye might deliver something even vaguely close to a balanced view of the Men’s Rights movement in her Red Pill film, rather than the straight-up MRA propaganda that it seemed to be turning into.

In the subject line of the email, I told her I was “deeply concerned” about her film. In the email, I explained why


We haven’t talked since the plans for an interview with me fell through, which may have been my fault.

But I have just watched the preview for your film and looked at some of the things you’ve posted on your facebook page and I am very deeply concerned about the direction of your film, and the highly unbalanced list of people that you interviewed for it.

It looks as though you have gotten a highly distorted, one-sided view of the Men’s Rights movement, by talking to a bunch of MRAs who tamped down their anger long enough to give you a sanitized pitch about what it is they do.

It’s good that you talked to some feminists. But instead of talking to those feminists and writers who have actually dealt with MRAs on a regular basis you have talked to feminists who have only a vague connection to what is really going on with the Men’s Rights movement.

I’ve been writing about them for five years now, and trust me, the video here is a better representation of them than what I’ve seen in your preview.

I linked to the now-notorious video of Paul Elam’s crude, drunken and NSFW tirade about two feminists.

I suppose that might have been a little harsh. saying that Elam’s video was a more accurate representation of MRAs than what she’s posted from her film. Then again, it is. I continued, referencing something Elam said in in the clip of the film she posted:

Elam, I think it was, made a joke about how no feminists were harmed during the making of your film. But in fact during the several years you have been making this film, many feminists and other women have been harmed by Elam and his allies.

Though she talked to one of the more famous victims of MRA harassment, I noted that there had been “many, many others,” and suggested that

Making a video about Elam and his allies at AVFM without talking to these women would be like making a documentary about Bill Cosby without talking to any of his accusers.

I listed a number of these women, with links to relevant posts of mine about them.

I mentioned one AVFMer who, since Jaye had interviewed him, had fallen out with Elam, with each accusing the other of being a con man. I mentioned that one MRA that Jaye had “managed to get an almost reasonable-sounding quote out of” was better known for his bitter, vicious attacks on Twitter. I mentioned “Janet Bloomfield’s” troubles with the truth.

And I pointed her to a notorious post from Paul Elam in which he declared he wasn’t actually interested in doing anything to help men beyond yelling at people on the internet.

I ended with this:

You can find more information about almost all of these things on my blog, even if I haven’t provided a link. And if you need any more information or links or contact information, please feel free to contact me. And I really hope you do.

And I hope even more strongly that you contact some of the women that Elam and his allies have harmed.

I should point out that I was not writing out of the blue. She had in fact contacted me during the filming of The Red Pill, asking for information and advice and attempting to set up an interview on film, which ended up falling through for various logistical reasons. We hadn’t communicated since then.

In any case, after this note, Jaye offered to talk to me on the phone about some of these issues and, after a few brief emails back and forth to set up a time to talk, we did, for about 20 minutes, I think.

I was polite, she was polite, and I believe I offered apologies for the sometimes blunt tone of my email to her. She assured me she was aware of all the issues I was raising, and that the film would reflect many of my concerns, which she told me that she herself shared.

After this conversation, I seriously considered stepping forward to offer public support to her Kickstarter, despite my serious misgivings over the footage she had released so far, her marketing strategies, and the unbalanced roster of interviewees.

But I couldn’t overcome my doubts about her, and after reading her interview with Breitbart I realized that my gut feelings about her had been right. She had been bullshitting me, and bullshitting feminists in general. And so I wrote my Open Letter to her.

So what about that second email of mine? I wrote that after A Voice for Men accused me of threatening her, in an attempt to clarify to her what I had actually meant in my Open Letter, and to check one fact with her.

Here’s the whole thing:

David Futrelle <> Oct 30 (13 days ago) to Cassie Hi, Cassie, As you know, I am deeply disappointed by your apparent embrace of some of the internet's most toxic individuals, and that I think that you have compromised the integrity of your fllm by taking money from them. But there was no "threat" to you in my open letter to you, the claims of Elam and his fans notwithstanding. I do think you will come to regret your embrace of these people, in part because this is, as I explained in the open letter, a violation of your own stated principles, but also because these people are bullies with a habit of turning on their former allies, and if you don't give them the deeply biased film that they expect, they may turn on you, and you may become a target of harassment -- from them, not me. My question: Will Mike Cernovich be an Associate Producer on your film? As you know, he says he is, and since you Tweeted his post saying this, I can only assume this is true. But I wanted to confirm this with you.

She didn’t respond. Figuring that she didn’t want to talk to me, I didn’t send a followup.

I’m having trouble understanding how my saying that “hey, these MRAs giving you money are actually total jerks” counts as bullying, exactly.

Indeed, in an interview published a day after I sent that email, she made it clear that MRA harassment is something she herself worries about, jokingly telling Tracy Clark-Flory of Vocativ that she could always “go into hiding” if the MRAs partially funding her film weren’t happy with it.

Cassie, if you want to see what bullying looks like, take a look at what A Voice for Men’s “social media director” did to feminist writer Jessica Valenti on Twitter.  Look at Elam offering $100 for a clear photo of one of his enemies. Look at the hate campaign Elam launched against one female college student because she attended a demonstration and made a few jokes on Twitter. Click on the  “harassment”or “bullying” tags on this blog for countless more examples.

Hell, go take a look at any of the examples of women harassed by AVFM and other MRAs that I sent you in that first email of mine.

I wasn’t trying to bully you; I was doing my best to convince you to listen to the women that the apparent heroes of your documentary have bullied, and continue to bully to this day.

I know that you spoke to one of these women. I hope that you at least do her justice in your film, though at this point, admittedly, I don’t have much reason to think you will.

NOTE: For reasons of space I didn’t include all of the first email. If you are a journalist or someone else with a legitimate need to fact check this piece I can send you the entire email. As text, as a screenshot, with the gory details of the email’s passage over the internet, whatever.


Bloomingdale’s date rape ad shows why the idea of the “friend zone” is so pernicious

No, Bloomingdales. no.

No, Bloomingdale’s, just no.

If you haven’t already seen this on Twitter, here’s something terrible for you: the image above comes from a catalog for Bloomingdale’s.

Because, apparently, a group of actual human beings sat around a table trying to come up with new ways to sell clothes this holiday season and decided that, really, there was no better way to do that than by conjuring up visions of holiday-themed date rape.

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MRA Provocateur Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield Also Threatening to Kill People. Again.

Janet Bloomfield/Andrea Hardie

Janet Bloomfield/Andrea Hardie

Men’s Rights provocateur and bow-hunting enthusiast Janet Bloomfield — a.k.a. JudgyBitch — has not been shy about sharing her fantasies of violent retribution against feminists.

Several months ago, you may recall, she begged her Patreon supporters to send her $800 so she could buy a “beautiful angel of death crossbow with which she could, as she giddily explained, “shoot … feminists in the face” if they showed up at her door.

Today, inspired by her colleague Jack Barnes’ threats against me, Bloomfield has reiterated her desire to shoot her enemies dead. In a post on her blog, archived here, she writes

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MRA Jack Barnes is trying to silence me with increasingly explicit threats

Jack Barnes, in a screenshot of one of his YouTube videos

Jack Barnes, in a screenshot from one of his YouTube videos

Jack Barnes, the notoriously hotheaded Men’s Rights Activist and longtime contributor to A Voice for Men, has escalated his attacks on me. In a post on AVFM, Barnes addressed me directly:

I’m a junkyard dog with no owner and no collar. …

Didn’t anyone ever tell you that you shouldn’t piss off a redheaded country boy from the backwoods of Tennessee? I promise you David that for the rest of your life there will be nights you cry yourself to sleep in anger and frustration over me.

In a followup post on TwitLonger, someone claiming to be Barnes — and it seems abundantly clear that it is in fact him — threatened to drive from Tennessee to Chicago to confront me in

a face to face in person discussion … No cops. No lawyers or prosecutors. No judges. No jury. No hiding behind a computer. Just me and you. …

I don’t know of any parent that would blame me for stomping a mud hole in your fucking ass and walking that motherfucker dry for what you have done!

What I have done is, in fact, nothing — nothing beyond letting the world know of some of the disturbing things Barnes has posted online.

But as Barnes sees it, I am responsible for putting his family in danger. How? Well, not long ago, someone apparently doxed Barnes, posting personal information about Barnes and his family on Twitter.

Of course, I had nothing to do with the doxing and only learned about it later from an AVFM video. I don’t know who did it, and I have publicly condemned it several times.

I will condemn it again, right here: the doxing of Jack Barnes and his family was wrong and a deeply shitty thing to do; whoever did it is a shithead and no friend of mine.

But Barnes is convinced one of my “cult followers” did the deed and bluntly warns me that ” I hold you personally responsible for this occurring.”

Even though I did not dox him, don’t know who doxed him, did not tell anyone to dox him, and have publicly denounced doxing in general and the doxing of Barnes and his family specifically.

The TwitLonger post declares:

You have crossed a line David. This is no longer about the MHRM vs feminism. This is no longer about AVFM, which I have no affiliation with, and your website. This is no longer about Paul Elam publisher of AVFM vs you as publisher of your website. You have made this personal. This is now about me vs you.
I don’t care that your little cult follower doxxed me. But when he/she doxxed my wife and little girl it became personal.

The author of the TwitLonger post, almost certainly Barnes himself, says that he will only come to Chicago for the promised “face to face in person discussion” if his family members come to harm.

But I do not have the luxury of seeing the threats as conditional ones. There are no conditions listed when he writes:

I don’t know of any parent that would blame me for stomping a mud hole in your fucking ass and walking that motherfucker dry for what you have done! Hell, I bet even Gondi would be like “he did what to you family? Fuck him up!

He is not saying that he would only be justified in “stomping a mud hole in [my] fucking ass” if something were to happen to his family; he is saying he is justified in doing so now.

Because some person who is not me, and who is unknown to me, did something I only found out about later and that I have publicly denounced.

And a possible “stomping” is not all I have to worry about: in his AVFM post, Barnes made sure I know that he

live[s] in a state with more guns than people, where a side arm is as common as a cell phone and where it is legal for 10yr olds to hunt with high powered rifles and without adult supervision.

So I can only assume that if he ever decides to pay me an unwanted visit he will be armed.

The author of the TwitLonger post — almost certainly Barnes — declares that his obvious threats against me are not in fact threats but “simply a statement of fact.” I think any reasonable person reading these posts would see them as clear threats, and I am treating them as such.

And it is plainly obvious to me that Barnes intends to terrorize me into silence with his threats — as his “promise” on AVFM that “for the rest of your life there will be nights you cry yourself to sleep” thinking about him makes abundantly clear. His threats are consistent with the threatening language he uses against feminists online, particularly on Twitter, which are clearly intended to shut his opponents up. As he put it in one notorious Tweet

Adding to the surreality of this all, Barnes and his allies at A Voice for Men are so committed to their bizarre caricature of me as some kind of cartoon supervillain that they not only blame me for things I haven’t done but for not doing things that I have done. In this case, their eyes seem to have blurred over when they’ve come across the things I’ve written condemning the doxing.

In his AVFM post, Barnes wrote that while other feminists had denounced the doxing,

there was one person who has remain eerily silent about all this. That person is David Futrelle. Seems odd since all of this doxxing was done to avenge him. There is not a peep from Futrelle about this on his site or on social media anywhere that I could find. As a parent I know my kid is up to no good when she is quiet. Wonder if the same goes for adults (assuming the word applies)?

In fact, I had condemned the doxing two days earlier in a post that Barnes has publicly acknowledged reading.

On Twitter, AVFM’s “Chief Public Relations Officer” Suzy McCarley did Barnes one better, somehow managing to miss my denunciation of the doxing in a Tweet of mine that she was literally quoting at the time, leading to this rather surrealistic exchange:

Suzy McCarley ‏@SuzyMcCarley Suzy McCarley Retweeted David Futrelle Boobz had to know it and he didn't make a peep until he was called out. @DavidFutrelle STILL hasn't condemned it. Suzy McCarley added, David Futrelle @DavidFutrelle . @Jackbarnesmra I DID NOT DOX YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. I DON'T KNOW WHO DOXED YOU OR THEM. WHOEVER DOXED YOU/THEM WAS WRONG. RETWEET 1 LIKES 3 Bob LorinczMike KlengenburgMel Liflora 9:19 PM - 8 Nov 2015 Reply Retweet Like More Tweet text Reply to @SuzyMcCarley Who's in these photos? David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle Nov 8 @SuzyMcCarley I called it out as soon as I heard about it. I condemned in in a post and in the tweet you just fucking quoted.

It is almost as if they are so committed to seeing me as a monster that they cannot handle it when reality defies their expectations.

Another longtime AVFM supporter, so-called “Honey Badger” Hannah Wallen, has added a decidely Kafkaesque series of Tweets to the Twitter dogpile, including one that puzzled me greatly until she explained her “logic” in more detail:

Eventually, I was able to understand that she was taking my concern over Barnes’ threats … as proof that I was planning to harm his family. Because, as Wallen figures it, Barnes’ threats only count as real threats if his family is harmed, so if I take his threats seriously I must be planning to harm them. (In fact, as I explained above, I don’t see his threats as conditional in any way.)

Wallen explained her “logic” in more detail in a blog post I discovered later. Utterly ignoring my denunciations of the doxing, and of doxing in general, she declared that if i didn’t immediately “admit”that my worries about Barnes’ threats were “a completely irrational overreaction to being held responsible for the effects of his dishonest shit stirring on his followers” I was essentially admitting that I was planning some sort of attack on Barnes’ family:

[H]is current response indicates .. that he intends for harm to come Jack’s family as a result of his shit stirring, that he DOES encourage his readers to engage in this type of behavior, and that he DOES intend for one or more of his readers to respond to his writing by engaging in violence against HIS political opponents.

After all, “If X, then Y” only infers Y on the condition of X… so responding to “If you X, then I’ll Y” as if the individual has only stated “I’m going to Y” is an admission that you’ve planned on X happening.

This, I have to admit, is pretty ingenious. Kafka would be proud.

But just in case anyone thinks there is anything to Wallen’s sophistry: I do not support doxing in general, and have made this clear on numerous occasions. I did not, do not, will not support the doxing of Jack Barnes or his family, nor do I have the slightest idea who did it. I do not “intend … for harm to come [to] Jack’s family” or to him. (Indeed, I don’t even know where they live; not only did I have nothing to do with the doxing of Barnes and his family, I didn’t even know about it until after the doxing tweets were deleted.) I do not support violence against my political opponents.

All of this is obvious to anyone who actually reads what I write on this blog without their perceptions distorted by MRA-induced prejudice or preconceptions.

That said, I will not apologize for taking Barnes’ threats seriously.

Nor will I apologize for exposing misogynistic Men’s Rights activists to the light of day — not by “shit stirring” or engaging in Wallen-esque sophistry, but by quoting their own words and reporting their real deeds.

And when people harass and threaten me — whether that’s Barnes, those at AVFM who have aided and abetted his threats, or anyone else — I will take every legal step I feel is necessary for my safety and the safety of others.

This post is one of those steps.

EDIT: Minor fixes. Also added more of an explanation of Wallen’s “logic.”

EDIT 2: Suzy McCarley has responded to this post with this:


Zombifying Vagina Goo Part Two: All Your Questions Answered!

Copulins in full effect!

Copulins in full effect!

Yesterday, I introduced you to the mysterious vaginal goo that enables those with vaginas to transform nearby men (and possibly even some women) into helpless zombie vagina slaves. According to some totally legit scientific studies summarized on the blog WOMEN NEED CONSTANT SUPERVISION, the hormone-ish lady chemicals called “copulins” act a bit like the magical midi-chlorians from Star Wars, turning ordinary women into Jedi masters of the vagina.

Also, they smell like butter.

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MGTOW: Women literally hypnotize men with their zombifying vagina goo

Men! Don't let this happen to you.

Men! Don’t let this happen to you.

Attention, class! Today we will be discussing some important new discoveries in the field of vagina science, as reported by the Youtuber and Man Going His Own Way known as Sandman.

In a new video, Sandman alerts his readers to a terrible danger: How women can use their vagina powers to turn men into “walking talking zombie[s].” As he explains:

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Dear Paul Elam: Criticizing you is not equivalent to inciting murder

Paul Elam, alleged Human Rights Activist

So last night, shortly before going to bed, I decided to watch some dumb videos on YouTube to clear my head of all the manosphere nonsense I’d been reading about for much of the evening. Scrolling through my various Youtube subscriptions, I happened to notice one with a rather intriguing title:

David Futrelle: Trying to Get MHRAs Killed

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