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alt-lite alt-right creepy cringe doubling down entitled babies men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA semen Stefan Molyneux

Stefan Molyneux grossed us all out with his comments on Taylor Swift’s eggs. But he’s been obsessed with ovulation for a long time.

The Eggman

By David Futrelle

Yesterday afternoon, the Alt-Rightish YouTube “philosopher” Stefan Molyneux decided that the world needed to hear his thoughts on Taylor Swift’s eggs. Not her egg salad recipe (if she has one) or her favorite way to prepare an omelette. Her eggs eggs. The ones inside her body.

So he tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1204194224545173504

And with this tweet, Stefan managed to squick out roughly half of the internet. The tweet is like some sort of icky onion: every layer is icky right down to its core. There’s the spectacle of a fiftysomething man offering his unasked-for thoughts on the reproductive anatomy of a woman young enough to be his daughter. There’s his attempt to use biology to push his agenda of pushing young women out of the workforce and back into the home. There’s that bit at the end about her potentially being a “fun mom.” There’s the smiley at the end. There’s the weird stench of horniness that permeates the whole tweet.

I could go on. But — as you’ll see if you look at the responses to that tweet — many others already have, sometimes hilariously so. And while Taylor Swift herself hasn’t responded to Stefan and his admittedly strange concerns, the Daily Beast notes, she has addressed the topic more broadly, telling People magazine that

people who ask the questions at parties like ‘When are you going to start a family’ to someone as soon as they turn 25 are a little bit rude.

It’s good that we’re allowed to say, ‘Hey, just so you know, we’re more than incubators.’ You don’t have to ask that of someone just because they’re in their mid-20s and they’re a female.

Upon discovering this, Stefan’s “concern” for her turned into anger.

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1204306230841368577

This isn’t Stefan’s first Egg Rodeo. Indeed, he’s posted about women’s eggs many times in the past — sometimes accusingly, sometimes gloatingly, and sometimes with false concern — in an attempt to chide the egg-havers into retreating from the workplace and devoting their twenties to babies, babies and more babies.

Here he cites selective facts in an attempt to scare women into making babies before it’s “too late.”

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1156045438484697095
https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1156778980713934848
https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1156248002769707015

In the interest of fairness, I should note that Stefan has also pointed out that sperm quality declines with age as well — though his preferred solution for men is to freeze their sperm for later use, not to give up the idea of a career in their twenties. (He would also prefer that young men not smoke pot lest it make their sperm lazy.)

But Stefan’s alleged “concerns” about women are skin-deep; he’s just as likely to mock older women without children for having “old” eggs as he is to express his weird “sympathy” for younger women whom he fears will end up “wasting” their young eggs.

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1115794357401993216
https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1167902913626132485

Here he mocks women with the temerity to take on debt in order to get an education:

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1098446897767866368

Here he suggests that women who don’t have kids young will end up getting eaten by their cats:

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1075556315399901185

He just seems to hate older women in general:

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1186793390974947330
https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1156246365669928960

It seems highly unlikely that Stefan will manage to avoid posting equally cringeworthy and terrible thoughts about women’s eggs in the future. No amount of criticism on this front seems to faze him. He doesn’t even bother to respond to most of it .

But there’s one egg-related topic that seems to genuinely bother him: the degree to which his own head resembles an egg.

https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/1075980243599388672

Perhaps more “modern Oscar Wildes” offering similar insights into Stafan’s big eggy head could deter him from making quite so many egg-related tweets in the future.

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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
9 months ago

@karalora : that’s because his reasoning start by the conclusion (women should stay in the kitchen). He work backward until having a seemingly objective set of premise, and show in his article the link between thoses premises and the conclusion.

The problem/feature of that is that he didn’t even check if it’s the only, or the preferable, outcome from his premise.

You should not take any of his declarations as rational or logical deduction. That way lie madness. It’s an exercice in sophism and self-justification. It’s also why they look considerably stupider than they are, even if they aren’t particulary bright ; they are not trying and failing at logic and reasons, they just engage in smoke and mirrors.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
9 months ago

David, how dare you. Eggs are delicious and wonderful and magical, and Stefan Molyneux is a disgusting pimple on the arse of humanity who does not deserve to be mentioned on the same PAGE as an egg.

I demand an apology on behalf of all tasty egg products.

HOW VERY DARE YOU!

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

I’ve been wanting to post an off-topic thing but that last was about the École Technique shooting, and I didn’t want to take away from that.

OT:

I’m in what might be a scary situation, but I’m not sure – I feel like I’m overreacting so I thought I’d run this by you all. Trigger warning for self anger, potential abuse, stalking

There’s a guy who works at a store in my neighborhood. I used to go to this store regularly, and when I would see this clerk I’d be friendly like I am to everyone. Apparently he doesn’t see it that way!

He had given me his number a couple of times, and asked me out a few times and a couple of weeks ago I was feeling really lonely and pathetic and like a huge loser so I texted him. Huge mistake!! He spent the entire next three days texting me, and called me every morning and night. I found out during the only phone conversation I would allow that he apparently thinks I’m his girlfriend (based on our customer cashier interactions!!) and he has constructed this entire fantasy personality for me that has no basis in reality whatsoever. Everything I said that didn’t conform to that was either completely ignored or met with him correcting me as to what he thought I should say. He insisted things like that we were definitely going to have sex, and that when we walk around together, I have to hold his hand.

I blocked him and haven’t had any contact with him, but now I’m getting calls from an unknown number that are just hang ups and I’m also getting a ton of pranks.

I never told him where I live thankfully. He was trying to find out. Apparently he got my name off my credit card information so I wouldn’t put it past him to try to get my address as well.

I don’t feel afraid, per se, but I have this awful buzzing energy that I can’t get rid of.

Sorry for the long OT. Thanks anyone who reads this!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 months ago

@ jarnaxa

Eggs are delicious and wonderful

Sorry; but I’m morally obliged to highlight that egg production is inherently evil and involves cruelty on an industrial scale.

https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/egg-industry/baby-chicks-ground-up-alive/

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
9 months ago

Where I live you can actually get locally-produced eggs from people you know, who take care of their chickens. The eggs aren’t as “perfect” looking as store bought eggs, but you can see where the chickens live and what they eat and how on the small family farms.

I’m pretty aware of what it means to eat meat and how it happens. I live in a farming community. I am sorry, but I am going to keep on eating meat and animal products, while advocating for humane practices as much as possible. I do respect your choice.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

Please do whatever you need to do to stay safe and feel safe. I am so sorry this is happening to you. I know it’s easy to question yourself about overreacting but please please do not and follow your instincts. I know it’s hard because I have faced that from guys I know from the coffee shop near where I work and from guys I thought were my friend and think because of how I treat all my clients at my job and how I dress that they can assume stuff. Please take care of yourself and follow your instincts. From what you say he is definitely wrong and a jerk. I don’t want to tell you what to do about calling the police and reporting him because you have to do what you are comfortable with but please just follow your instincts to stay safe. I will send you positive supportive thoughts if it will help.

And please please do not blame yourself or feel guilty. It is NOT your fault and you are not responsible for him being a jerk.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 months ago

@ yutolia

That is so awful; I feel for you. I can understand the weird ‘unsettled’ hyper feeling. Had something similar. But anyway…

The only practical advice I can suggest is log everything. No matter how trivial or inconsequential you think it may be. Note the date/time of all suspect calls. Put down as much detail as you can of any pranks. If you’re not sure whether and event is significant or related, note it anyway.

Two things come of this: actually doing something can give you more of a feeling of control and ease the angst. But more practically, if you ever do need to take action; you have a bundle of contemporaneous evidence at hand and in an accessible format.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner

Sorry, I meant my last comment for you of course but typed so quickly I forgot the little @

I am so sorry this is happening to you!

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

@Stacey: thanks for saying that, I’ve been really on myself about this whole thing… thanks for your support!

@Alan: thank you also and thanks for the advice.

I feel less like I’m losing my mind.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia

No, no, you are NOT losing your mind. You are strong and your message was clear headed and you were right to share it.

Amy E
Amy E
9 months ago

@Yutolia

You are not overreacting. Even if he gives up without taking it too far, his behaviour has already signalled “stalker” and that justifies any and all action you take to protect yourself.

I want to suggest a few things that might help; everyone, please feel free to chime in and correct me if you think I’m wrong. I’m not an expert; I just know one or two people who have had similar issues.

I suggest you start by keeping records – dates and times of prank calls, for example. If you get prank called and he stays on the line, say clearly and distinctly something along the lines of “Stop calling me. Leave me alone; don’t try to contact me again.” Anything he does after that is legally harassment.

Continue to keep records of dates, times and descriptions of any strange incident, no matter how small you think it is. You will then have a body of evidence with which you can go to the police. If it continues for a month or so, I suggest you do precisely that.

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

@Amy: thanks for reading.

Thanks all for the suggestions. I’m glad to hear other people say his behavior is creepy because I was raised to doubt all my perceptions. I’m getting better about that also and you all have been very helpful.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
9 months ago

Oh, that’s a swell idea. Have babies in your early 20s on one income, when you can least afford them. Then at 45, sashay down to the company of your choice, snap your fingers, and get an entry level job at (because the workplace is so accepting of older women without a college degree, and will definitely hire you over an energetic go-getter fresh out of school). Then work your way up into a stable career by, oh, 55 or 60, right as retirement looms.

Nope. The way our economy is structured, it’s the career that can’t wait.

The assumption that these guys seem to have is about as follows:

–Girl graduates from high school at 17/18.

–Works as a candy-striper until she meets a boy out of college who is making at least enough for a very comfortably middle-class lifestyle, two cars, backyard, etc.

–Marries him before turning 21. Has children in rapid succession while keeping her figure.

–At the age of 28-30, as the youngest child is entering kindergarten, goes through college on husband’s money, then receive job immediately after, or perhaps before, graduation, doing something highly lucrative. This job has flexible hours, and she can do some of it from home, after picking up the kids.

–Spends years from 35 until death smirking at poor stupid bitches who weren’t rich enough to pull this off.

I have no idea if any human being has ever actually done all the parts of this, but as you can see, it’s decidedly a career path for a specific combination of affluent and traditionally minded.

Or, you know, you could be like me and have two kids at 39 and 42. I know this doesn’t make Stefan happy, but it’s been known to happen.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Yutolia
Depending on the laws where you live, it may or may not be legal to record phone calls. I believe in another thread you mentioned living in Colorado, there it is legal so I recommend recording if possible so you can use the recording as evidence.
You’re not overreacting. Trust yourself and do what your gut tells you.

@Podkayne Lives
The irony is that the same people who think this is how women should live also complain that women are hypergamous gold diggers.
Manospherians: “Women shouldn’t work and should be dependent on men”
Also manospherians: “Women are all gold diggers who take men’s money”

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia

I know it’s difficult not to push it back on yourself but I have struggled with that too. We can learn to stand up for ourselves. I gradually learned to be firm about setting boundaries. I work in an artsy kind of job where it’s important for me to look attractive and I dress in form fitting outfits that I try to make very eye catching and my clothes and my body are to me and my salon’s clients my art, and because of that plus having a dance background I am always purposefully conscious all the time of how I move and stand and pose, even when just somewhere where everyone else is casual or whatever. For me it is art but I have had guys who maybe I was just being nice to or even thought was a friend but would not date think they could assume they could expect me to just because I am dressed that way and smiling and kind to them. I am just naturally nice and tend to blame myself but learned to really put my foot down and me firm, even to the point of formally ending friendships with guys because of that.

I know it is hard but you are strong and I encourage you. There are so many smart people here and I really agree with the advice of recording anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Shadowplay
9 months ago

@Yutolia

Like Alan and Amy said – log absolutely everything.

I’d also suggest talking to the police much sooner than a month or so, like, maybe tomorrow. There’s very little they can do right now, but there’s nothing wrong with giving the authorities a heads up. Thinking back on the gamergate crap, it saved a couple people’s lives, doing that.

Oh, and this, from @Staceysmartypants

And please please do not blame yourself or feel guilty. It is NOT your fault and you are not responsible for him being a jerk.

Take that to heart, eh? It is rather important.

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

Thank you all. Yes, I do live in Colorado.

I’ve already been logging stuff, and I will keep doing it. I’m going to start recording the phone calls (hadn’t thought of that).

I forgot to mention this in my post before. Before I blocked him, I was very clear with him that I don’t want to talk to him and have no feelings for him whatsoever. I’m very proud of myself for putting up that boundary.

Thanks for everyone reminding me it’s not my fault. I will take that to heart.

You are all awesome people and I’m so thankful for this community.

Aron
Aron
9 months ago

@Dormousing_It What if that statement starts with ‘Hey ladies!’ and ends with ‘Get funky!’

https://youtu.be/Naf5uJYGoiU

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Yutolia
A few more possible suggestions:
On the off chance that he does stay on the line for any of the prank calls, tell him firmly that you will contact law enforcement about him and see if that stops him. If it doesn’t, it’s time to report to the police. Seconding Shadowplay that you should do this sooner rather than later regardless of his response.
You said he has your credit card number. In that case, it could be wise to put a freeze on your card to make sure he doesn’t try to take your money. It’s an inconvenience, but it could save you a lot of money and trouble in the end.
In the event that he sends you explicit threats and/or seems to have your address, try to have a backup location you can stay at for a few days in order to be safe (maybe a close friend or relative if you have any nearby). That’s what Anita Sarkeesian did.

The other thing to do is try to stay calm. He’s doing this to mess with your head. Make sure he doesn’t get to you. Try to keep relaxed and keep your life regular and normal, and take care of yourself.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
9 months ago

@Yutolia
Please listen to the other commenters. They have it all right. I don’t have anything helpful to say that they haven’t said, but I’m 100% seconding.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Cats in Shiny Hats

I love your nym!

ColeYote
ColeYote
9 months ago

He just seems to hate older women in general

Not sure you needed to add “older” there.

Tohka
Tohka
9 months ago

Man.. Molyneux is so creepy x10.
Hi everyone! I used to post here a while back but a family member got really sick and I became her caretaker for a while. I finally got back into school and finished my first term so I’m on my way towards completing my BA!

Anyway. What he says just creeps me out.
I mean I do want kids in the future. I’m in my mid 20s right now but I don’t have a partner. So watching Adam ruins everything was shocking. I knew those old studies were old but not THAT old, you know? I mean my mom had me in her 30s. Other women in my family had kids late too. My aunt had my cousin when she was almost 40 or at 40. Can’t remember. Now my cousin is ridiculous tall since everyone is tall in my family and does part time modeling lol.

But really, Molyneuxs obsession probably comes from power to instill fear and panic into women that they settle with an older manipulative person. I feel so bad for his daughter. He and his wife (who I found out is a psychiatrist! She’s been in trouble before too but still practices) had her in their 40s. I mean… He’s just a hypocrite? Hes at home while his wife is a working professional career women who had kids later in life?? And hes said that he wants his daughter to be a great philosopher in her life so a career…

Karalora
Karalora
9 months ago

that’s because his reasoning start by the conclusion (women should stay in the kitchen). He work backward until having a seemingly objective set of premise, and show in his article the link between thoses premises and the conclusion.

Yeah, I know. I really should stop trying to parse this as though it were simple wrongheadedness. Molyneux is not wrongheaded, he’s malicious. He’s one of those people who mentally constructs a horrific world so that he can spin his misanthropy as heroism.

Genjones
Genjones
9 months ago

@Yutolia – Also, you know where he works. I would suggest notifying his management if you haven’t already. Sometimes the police can be apathetic to this sort of thing, but a business is not going to tolerate someone who harasses customers. You could be helping other women in the future by doing so, a report or record anywhere is going to build a case against him if he is a repeat offender.

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

I’m going to be contacting the police tomorrow and I have also finally decided to talk to his employer. I’ll let you know how it all goes!

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

Thanks all for your advice and listening!!

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia

We just want you and everyone to be safe.

You did nothing to bring this on yourself and you have every right to say what you did and absolutely to protect yourself.

I really admire you for taking a stand.

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
9 months ago

@Lainy Congratulations!!

@Yutolia Good luck and I hope all works out well for you.

rv97
rv97
9 months ago

I wish Stefan could just go get Saudi citizenship and never speak English again! He would stop complaining about modern society if he himself were around people that reject it or are trapped in a system that forbids it!

I think the West or the world should stop their bullshit with trying to defend free speech (since people are taking that to mean “I can say whatever the fuck I want, even if it’s repressive as fuck”) and get to defending only leftist values already! These people don’t deserve a platform!

rv97
rv97
9 months ago

Adding to what I’ve said, there’s a saying “America is the land of the free. Don’t like it? Leave!” That saying should go to Stefan and people like him only, since he doesn’t want anyone but cis white men like himself to be free.

America should be free for everyone who isn’t his demographic too, because unfortunately, much of the world seems to be free only for heterosexual cisgender men of the majority or a favored ethnicity, of the majority faith and whatever other privilieged position(s) they may be in.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
9 months ago

@Yutolia : good luck for the ordeal, because you will need a bit of luck for it to go well 😡

I don’t know what I would do in such a situation. I guess I would change phone number and consider change house too.

AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
9 months ago

“Where I live you can actually get locally-produced eggs from people you know, who take care of their chickens. The eggs aren’t as “perfect” looking as store bought eggs, but you can see where the chickens live and what they eat and how on the small family farms.”

This. I too am lucky enough to live in an area with lots of small farms that take great care of their hens.

Yutolia: Seconding/thirding everyone here. We support you.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 months ago

Re: backyard chickens

Whilst such birds may have a marginally better life than commercial hens; there are still animal rights issues.

Firstly, there’s just the sheer artificiality of the situation. The Red Jungle Fowl (which hens are descended from) lays around a dozen eggs a year. Egg laying hens have been selectively bred to produce eggs daily.

That obviously takes a toll on their bodies. Left to their own devices hens will try to recoup lost calcium by eating their own eggs; but of course that’s not possible if you deprive them of them. But the calcium deficiency is why you get ‘wonky’ eggs.

Commercial egg production needs things to look ok for customers; so they use chemical supplements

https://www.farmchem.co.uk/liquid-calcium-poultry-supplement-1173-p.asp

There’s also the issue of what happens to hens when they reach the end of productive egg laying. Do they get a happy retirement; or are they just killed and disposed of once they have no value?

Animal welfare is of course desirable; but it’s no substitute for animal rights.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
9 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw : to be honest, I litteraly cannot read that kind of post without rolling my eyes, because plants have the exact same set of problems, and I don’t empathize any less with a tree or an herb than with an hen.

Until humans do the photosynthesis themselves, I feel like that animal and plant welfare is as far as someone should go. Trying to go too far into that lead both to strange, arbitrary distinction (like you do here between hens and soja plants) and overreach (the current domestic hen cannot live in the wild, and it’s at best conjectural to say that wild animals are happier than farm one)

solecism
solecism
9 months ago

@Yutolia, I am glad you’re taking action to protect yourself. I second everything everyone has said. This is NOT your fault. You did nothing wrong. This dude escalated horribly fast and was already immersed in his own fantasy before anything you did or said to him outside of the store.

Captain Awkward has answered lots of questions from people dealing with stalkers. Go to her site and search for stalker or stalking. The most recent one: https://captainawkward.com/2019/11/19/1236-my-ex-keeps-gnawing-at-the-edges-of-my-work-and-social-life/

It’s pretty different from your situation, but some of the advice will still be potentially useful. Also, please know that stalking is depressingly, terrifyingly common, so you are not alone in dealing with this. Again, not your fault.

In addition to the freeze on your credit, you might consider contacting your credit card company and requesting that you be issued a new card because you are concerned that your current one has been compromised by a dodgy store employee.

Good luck talking to the police. And good on you for documenting. Reach out to friends for support. His goal is to isolate and terrorize you, so this is the time to surround yourself with loving kindness.

Consider calling a domestic violence hotline to help you figure out what other safety precautions you can take to deal with this situation. It’s not fair and it’s not right, but you got this.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia

I hope you are doing ok. We are with you.

Consider calling a domestic violence hotline to help you figure out what other safety precautions you can take to deal with this situation. I

I really agree with Solecism here. If you call that means someone will know you called and you aren’t alone. It means so much.

Shadowplay
9 months ago

Aye. No worry, you’ve got enough stress on your plate, but let us know how its going when you can please.

Lailette
Lailette
9 months ago

70% of eggs are gone by the time a girl hits PUBERTY. 😑 Losing 90% by age 30 isn’t exactly “running out of eggs”. Sure, fertility decreases with age. But not many women are unaware of that, & it’s also not as extreme as these dudes like to claim.

AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
9 months ago

Losing 90% by age 30 isn’t exactly “running out of eggs”.

And it’s not like we can use ’em all, anyway. *shrug*

Paireon
Paireon
9 months ago

@Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner – Late to the party, but I also wanted to chime in support. This dude is beyond creepy and I’m pretty sure things can be done to neutralize him. Hope your call to the police went well.

And now as for Eggman (sorry, Sonic fans)… Yeah, besides misrepresenting basic biology to be a sanctimonious creep, the arrogance, entitlement and hypocrisy are positively (so to speak) dripping from his tweets. Makes me want to shower. You know it’s bad when he can’t even manage to sound smarmy and unctuous but still feels slimy. Can’t help but pity any women he gets his hands on because as brutally imperious as he is, she’s gonna have a bad time.

Plus, he can’t even take a single joke at his expense because of course he can’t. Ego more fragile than a crystal glass.

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
9 months ago

Hi all,

I came home and just passed out last night, I was exhausted! Anyway, I called the store and told the management about him. Apparently this has been a problem before. Then I spoke to the police and they are looking into the prank calls and hang ups, plus they know this guy just lost his job and might be extra pissed.

*sigh… this is so tiring

kupo
kupo
9 months ago

@Alan
Could you please not shame people for the foods they eat? Thanks.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
9 months ago

@Yutolia

Thank you for letting us know the update. I am sure it’s tiring but I hope you are moving close to feeling safer.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 months ago

@ kupo

I don’t think I’m shaming anybody.

I am raising some facts about certain aspects of food production; but I can’t be responsible for people’s reactions to that. If people feel shame after that, then it’s a matter for their own self reflection as to why that might be.

The whole animal rights thing though does illustrate, and raise, some interesting issues around progressive politics.

There’s the whole call out culture thing. Should we refrain from commenting on people’s choices?

There’s how vegans are perceived, and how that may relate to how progressives generally are perceived.

There’s that thing of “It was different back then”. I personally think that there will come a time when our treatment of animals will be regarded on a par with bear baiting or worse. But of course lot of nice people here do eat them and use animals. So that gives us a bit of an insight into history I think; and how we judge people back then by contemporary standards.

And there’s the whole thing about justification. I find it interesting that people will use “It’s natural” or “We’ve always done that” when challenged on using animals; but dismiss such arguments in other contexts.

And I think a key thing to remember when we talk about people’s food ‘choices’ is, it’s not much of a choice for the animals.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
9 months ago

Alan, maybe you could stop derailing. It’s geting pretty tiresome.

Anonymous
Anonymous
9 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw

The way I see it, all life survives only at the expense of other life. Even photosynthetic bacteria will inevitably take up space, water, and oxygen that could’ve gone to other bacteria and deprive them as a result. Similarly, no predator animal exactly has an opportunity to not cause pain as a result of their diet. A small handful of us humans have both the opportunity and the inclination to become vegans, but the bulk of the meat-eating animals on Earth (and many humans at that matter)have no such luxury.

It’s the same for the animals we raise for meat as well as the crops we grow, but then you have to remember that at least now we have the potential to mitigate the suffering we must inevitably cause to them. Until we learn how to grow meat from cell cultures alone at a reasonable cost, things like backyard chickens are in fact the best we can do.

Valentin
Valentin
9 months ago

What people eat is also often not a choice for them. Not everyone has privilege to chose, or access to chose.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
9 months ago

@ hippodemeia

Yeah sorry; I know I bang on about this. It’s just so hard for me when people talk positively about certain foods. “We condone what we stay silent about” and all that. And this is a site where people do call out what they see as problematic issues; so I get a bit carried away. Apologies.

@ anonymous

Indeed, and that is recognised in that it’s about harm reduction rather than elimination. “as far as is practical and possible”. Still, for many humans, avoiding animal derived products would not be a luxury; at worst it would be an inconvenience. And whilst we can’t yet grow ‘meat’ on an industrial scale; there are plenty of alternatives. So again, meat eating is a preference rather than a necessity.

@ valentin

That is true for some people; especially if they live in food deserts and/or have other problems like lack of access to cooking facilities etc. That’s part of a much bigger political picture, involving everything from social policy to the subsidies for the food lobby.

But as above, a lot of people do have a choice; so they’re inflicting unnecessary suffering. And that’s just direct harm to the animals; that’s before you come onto secondary effects like the genocide in the Amazon or the effects on climate.

I do understand why this is a subject that comes across as preachy and makes people uncomfortable; but I think that can often because progressives especially feel a sort of cognitive dissonance. We recognise the inconsistencies and double standards in what we condemn in others but excuse in ourselves.

Valentin
Valentin
9 months ago

We recognise the inconsistencies and double standards in what we condemn in others but excuse in ourselves.

With all due respect, maybe you should look at yourself first.