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“Guys who are 7s are on the hunt for 6s but they’re actually 5s,” Red Pill mathematician explains

Math is hard

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By David Futrelle

One thing almost all online misogynists can agree about is that makeup is a lie — a way for women to hide their true ugliness and capture the attention of men who are objectively better-looking than them on that ten-point scale that these dudes are so obsessed with.

Some misogynists are so jealous and angry about these women supposedly dating above their station, looks wise, that they want makeup banned forever.

It’s easy to see how the allegedly involuntary celibate men who call themselves incels would get worked up about this: they;re convinced their own ugliness has rendered them permanently dateless, while women who are just as ugly as them can (supposedly) slap on a little lipstick and mascara and score themselves some Chad.

It’s a little more puzzling to see men who consider themselves Red Pill pickup artists extraordinaire, who spend much of their time trying to trick women into seeing them as hotshot alpha males, would complain about women “lying” with makeup, but they do.

You can see the full absurdity of this in a post on the Red Pill subreddit asking the question “Has make up made it harder for the average guy to get laid?”

Naturally, the OP, a guy calling himself masamune36, thinks this is so.

“You take two average looking people a guy and a girl,” he begins.

lets say on the looks scale they are both 5/10’s, put make up on the girl and that girl can EASILY become a 8/10, in fact I’m sure many of you have seen even more dramatic transformations where a girl who is way below average becomes quite stunning if she knows how to work that shit they lather all over their face’s right.

So an ordinary gal makes herself look more attractive. Isn’t this what everyone does? What’s the problem here?

As masamune36 sees it, there are two. First, it makes these girls think they’re actually kind of cute.

The girls that do this pretty much have this stuff on their face 24/7 every picture they post to social media will be this ‘masked’ version of themselves, even just going to the shops to buy some milk … I think many of these chicks actually start deluding themselves into thinking that is their true self and they are naturally beautiful and thus believe they deserve a man of similar looks and that 5/10 guy that was her equal is no longer good enough for her.

It’s amazing how often supposed Red Pill studmuffins sound exactly like incels.

Problem two?

The 5/10 man now looks at these women and starts doubting if hes good enough physically…he will probably approach with way less confidence… seriously take all that shit off her face and watch how different the interaction would go.

Meanwhile, there’s apparently nothing these guys can do to make themselves look better.

There is pretty much no way for a man to dramatically change his looks like this, at least not facially, i mean sure you can workout get a tan style your hair etc but that will only change you so much… the makeup these bitches apply is almost like they are walking around permanently photoshopped…

Let’s get the United Nations Human Rights Council to look in on this terrible injustice!

One Red Pill commenter tries to do the makeup math.

Basically guys who are 7s are on the hunt for virtual 6s but they’re actually 5s. A 6 who does not compete with all the fake stuff is then in there in the mix with the 5s who are jacked up. And a 5 who does not choose to jack herself up can’t compete for the 7.

When you get to an 8 guy who might be able to get an 8 girl, she can get to 9 or close to 10 with everything going right: clothes, makeup, hair, photoshop, instagram. 

If that’s all a little confusing for you, this might help:

The commenter then moves from makeup math to makeup economics:

Anything marketed with lies and falsehood is basically going to appeal to a wider range of customers. This means more interest for the product, and so a higher price.

In case you’re wondering, all of this will be on the exam.

This song seems oddly appropriate here:

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weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

We can’t win. If we don’t wear makeup, support garments, and heels, we’re letting ourselves go. We’re the reason why western women are so hideous that men must go Eastern Europe or Asia to find a mate who knows to look good and please a man. But if we do put in lots of effort to be conventionally beautiful, we’re manipulative and vain bitches.

Also, it’s not like stores refuse to sell makeup to men. There’s no reason men can’t just wear makeup if it’s so magical. Why not trick us into thinking they’re 8s too?

Vox
Vox
2 years ago

I love how these guys always act like makeup is this new intrusion on human mating. Ancient societies had makeup.

heebee
heebee
2 years ago

Every person has the right to do the best they can with their appearance. And most incels are 3s and 2s so if I was them I would stay in your lane and not comment on womens looks.

Tosca, Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
Tosca, Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
2 years ago

I was thinking the same thing. They can just go out and buy makeup and have at it! There are places they can learn to use it, or just try out a few YouTube tutorials!

There was a time when women “couldn’t” wear trousers. And then they said bugger that, and started wearing trousers. And now women wear trousers all the time and no one (besides religious weirdos) turns a hair.

But men “can’t” wear makeup. Uh huh.

jsrtheta
jsrtheta
2 years ago

Men used to wear makeup, more than women did. High heels, too.

Today, we have changed what is “acceptable” for the sexes. That will doubtless change too.

Everyone, man or woman, tries to improve their looks when they are going to be with someone they care about impressing. But we all know that this is just at the start, and no one wants to keep seeing a monster just because he or she looks hot.

The problem with these guys is they have no idea how to even get to the start.

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

@heebee: Have you considered digging *upward* for a little while?

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

Heebee

Elliot rogers was not 2 or 3.

I like men to wear makeup. I think its hawt.

MISANDRY!!!!!

Bina
2 years ago

All Red Pillocks are zeroes, no matter what they look like. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Creepy isn’t a look, it’s a behavior pattern.

Also, a little music for those numerically-obsessed numbskulls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhn2sy8r5g

Only in real life, it’s us singing it to them.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

Yes, there’s no real reason why men can’t wear makeup. I wonder how many men secretly wear concealer to cover pimples and under eye circles, and maybe even self tanner and blush. If they do, I applaud them.

banned@4chan.org
banned@4chan.org
2 years ago

I like to think of my badger eyes as a charm point!

tim gueguen
2 years ago

Great minds and all that, Bina. I was gonna post that one as well. I’d almost wonder if it wasn’t an inspiration for some of the attitudes of the incel movement, but I don’t think it got much airplay in the US.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@heebee
When you hit rock bottom and people tell you to stop you don’t get the power drill.

This “too ugly to date” bs is some biotruthy bs so please stop with the “they are physically repulsive” bs.

Jane Done
Jane Done
2 years ago

The girls that do this pretty much have this stuff on their face 24/7 every picture they post to social media will be this ‘masked’ version of themselves, even just going to the shops to buy some milk … I think many of these chicks actually start deluding themselves into thinking that is their true self and they are naturally beautiful

That’s not how makeup works. That’s not how skin works. That’s not even how molecules work. There is no safe chemical in the world that can be “lathered on” the surface of the body and magically resist all friction, moisture, body oils and the daily shedding of skin.

I don’t even

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

Can we add “If 6 was 9” to the Deceptive Wimmenz playlist?

Anything marketed with lies and falsehood is basically going to appeal to a wider range of customers. This means more interest for the product, and so a higher price.

I love how the Sexual Marketplace is a real thing, but the minute women are seen to market themselves, suddenly it’s all sham and lies. I guess because these men want to be the sole judges of a woman’s value, but it’s too confusing if her appearance keeps changing.

The fact that a woman can put on makeup and immediately jump 2 – 3 hotness points, or express an opinion and fall 5 – 6 points (a la Taylor Swift), pretty much proves that HB rankings are nonsense. Incels are forever demanding that everyone be with their precise, mathematically determined looksmatch in order to satisfy their just-world cravings, but what does that even mean when the same person can be a 7 in formal evening dress, but a 4 when schlubbing around the house in sweats after three hours of sleep?

I wonder what they make of the Healthiest President Ever’s artificial orange complexion? They probably think he’s naturally tanned and robust, and don’t feel the slightest bit of anger that he’s “deceiving” people. Or the fact that he markets himself as a “billionaire”, even though he’s heavily leveraged, deeply in debt, has declared bankruptcy four times, and isn’t worth nearly as much as he says he is. I don’t hear them complaining about that either. In fact, they admire him for that. Funny how that works.

It’s as if guys are the only ones allowed to put in effort (and deception) into marketing themselves. Women are constantly sexualized, yet the moment they try to capitalize on it these guys cry foul and try to get them busted for tax evasion.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
2 years ago

In German we have the saying: ‘Every pot has a lid.’

Meaning that there is someone out there for everyone.

If you, however, are actively cultivating a personality designed to be repulsive all your possible lids will say ‘Oh hell no!’ when you encounter them!

There’s also a ton of personal grooming to be done that doesn’t involve make up.

1. Wash your hair. The smell of unwashed hair is unpleasant.
2. Wash yourself. Daily. And use deodorant, but not too much.
3. Always wear clean clothes.
4. Cycle between a few pairs of shoes, so they can air out. Reduces foot smell!

Won’t do a thing if you’re a prick, though.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

So suppose there’s no way these guys are gonna do something that makes them seem less masculine. Well, that rules out putting on mascara and brightly coloured lipstick, since in the society we live in, that’s considered feminine.
But what they talk about here, women magically going from 5 to 7 or even higher, is surely not just putting on mascara and lipstick. It’s gotta be makeup that creates illusions with highlights and shadows so that it looks like you have great skin, high cheekbones etc, and it’s apparently so subtly done that no one realizes.
That’s something they could still learn to do, and do themselves! Since more or less by postulation, other people can’t tell that this is what you’ve done to your face. So others aren’t gonna think “look, a feminine guy who wears makeup” but “oh, what a Chad with glowing skin and super cheek bones”. (I’m buying into a lot of stupid premises here, I’m just saying what their conclusion should be based on their own “logic”.)

(A)utonomous Escapist
(A)utonomous Escapist
2 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen: I think you’re expecting too much from them. It’s the same as the Far Right-playbook: Our enemies are weak degenerates who pose no threat, while simultaneously being supremely dangerous, well-funded and in cahoots with the literal Jewish Illuminati. Don’t expect sensible logic there.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

Where is this magical makeup sold?

Because the makeup I’ve used doesn’t transform me greatly. It might make me look more stylish or more polished or less blotchy — but it doesn’t transform bone structure.

I’m very curious to try this makeup. I could probably pull off jewel heists and such if I wore it — nobody would know it was me! Investigators studying surveillance camera images would be completely foiled! My own mother wouldn’t know me! Ha, ha, ha!

Not that I’d ever do such a thing of course. I would use this supernatural stuff only to lure a Chad into my web.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
2 years ago
Alrunia
Alrunia
2 years ago

I already know the answer to this but I still have to ask. If wearing makeup is supposedly such a magical fix-all when it comes to being ugly, what’s stopping them from using it themselves? What, do they think men in hollywood have naturally defined eyes and perfectly poreless skin or…

Alrunia
Alrunia
2 years ago

I don’t know, maybe we should just develop a meme in response to all the incel and pua types where every time they’re getting started on another cryfest over women not liking them people immediately and overwhelmingly respond with IT’S YOUR PERSONALITY. Just drown it out with cries of YES THERE IS A REASON NO ONE CAN STAND YOU AND IT’S YOU, IT’S ENTIRELY YOU. Just spitballing here, because it’s both sad and baffling that such a simple, fundamental truth is impossible for them to understand.

Sheila Crosby
2 years ago

Completely OT, sorry.
I have just had a major trip to the dentist. Yes, on Sunday. He wasn’t sure how long it would take and didn’t want a full waiting room if things got complicated.
The anaesthetic is wearing off and FUCK!
I am so lucky that I can go to a good dentist. I am so lucky that I live in a time and place with good painkillers. But still, FUCK!
Kitten photos and similar would be very much appreciated.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Oof. Been there.

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Pie
Pie
2 years ago

@Knitting Cat Lady

There’s also a ton of personal grooming to be done that doesn’t involve make up.

1. Wash your hair…

Woah there. Remember, this is a group of people who feel oppressed by the idea of having to wipe after taking a shit… I feel like your instructions may need some simplification.

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants

I love how the Sexual Marketplace is a real thing, but the minute women are seen to market themselves, suddenly it’s all sham and lies

I bet a whole bunch of these guys around describe themselves as “entrepreneurs” and have delusions aspirations of being wealthy and respected and powerful in some ancap or at the very least libertarian future. They’ll inevitably express their displeasure in the strongest terms of anyone were to suggest imposing taxes and regulations and restrictions on real world markets, but as soon as the fantasy marketplace that they invented for their dicks doesn’t quite go the way they want them it’s all ban, ban, ban, control control control, everyone should have equal access to feeeeemales, I have rights, etc etc.

Marketplaces are good for establishing value, guys. You just don’t have any.

Nitpickr
Nitpickr
2 years ago

Note to editor: Sentence is properly “….objectively better looking than THEY.”

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Why was the 6 afraid of the 7 (who was actually only a 5?)?

Because seven eight nine!

Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

<3 Sheila, that's horrid! I hope some over the counter painkillers can fill the gap for you. No fun at all.

My makeup's all vantablack. I’m not a 6 or a 7 or an 8 or whatever, I’m goddamn complex aleph null

Math that ya PUA bastards.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

see, @heebee, we’d be prone to believe you when you say that “ugly dudes can’t date” if you ever said anything else. Practically every post you’ve ever written has included it.

You’ve said that you’ve moved on from the desire of dating, that you’ve found peace, but you very obviously haven’t. If you had come to terms with that part of your life, you wouldn’t talk about it all the goddamn time. You’d have other things to talk about.

But you don’t, ’cause you haven’t. Resentment clings to you like a wet rag, the same resentment that fuels the incels.

Seriously, please. Cut it out. If you’re sincere, stop bringing it up and talk about other things in your life.

Wetherby
Wetherby
2 years ago

Because the makeup I’ve used doesn’t transform me greatly. It might make me look more stylish or more polished or less blotchy — but it doesn’t transform bone structure.

On the other hand, growing a beard can sometimes create the illusion that your face is a different and possibly more appealing shape. I actually appeared to have cheekbones after I grew one, which certainly wasn’t the case before.

If only that was an option available to men.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 years ago

Now, now, friends, maybe heebee has a point. Maybe the problem isn’t that this supposed objective 10-point hotness scale is a pile of crap. Maybe the real problem is that the 10-point hotness scale is a law of the universe, but the men criticizing women are too low on that very same scale to be doing the criticizing. Let only hotter men talk about the duplicitous nature of women and their filled-in eyebrows, I say. Only 9s may take me to task for my bronze lids.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

But Visc

you said only hotter mans could take you to task for your devious, duplicitous eyeliner! A 9-grade man just wouldn’t cut it!

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 years ago

Oh you! Silly.
comment image

Okay yes I don’t know how transparent images work obviously

Richard
Richard
2 years ago

What is needed is kindness on all sides. Both men and women vary in attractiveness. If one is a one or a two this does not make them worthless. I would not like to push an incel over the brink to suicide. It is the sort of thing that haunts a person.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

Scildfreja:

My makeup’s all vantablack.

vantablackface – the most efficiently racist costume accessory?

Sheila Crosby
2 years ago

@WWTH Thankyou. Those are some lovely, consoling kittens.
@Scildfreja Thank you. Paracetamol took the edge off it a bit.
I think the worst is over and I’ll be able to sleep tonight

Aaron
Aaron
2 years ago

That’s something they could still learn to do, and do themselves! Since more or less by postulation, other people can’t tell that this is what you’ve done to your face.

I brought this up in a sort of incel-adjacent discussion once; I recall that the reaction was oddly mixed. Some rejected it outright (usually alongside epithets like cuck, soyboy, etc.), but a few others seemed vaguely interested in the idea.

I am sympathetic to the difficulties here, though – because as is so often the case when it comes to personal expression, women have a lot more leeway than men. Really subtle application of makeup is hard to do well, so for a straight guy to do it in a way that would make him more conventionally attractive, he’d have to be pretty good at it – probably better than most women.

Andy 707
Andy 707
2 years ago

Instead of writing that text wall, he could’ve just said “I want women to be uglier because I can’t handle the fact there are men who are better than me”. lol

Jane Done
Jane Done
2 years ago

@Lumipuna: except vantablack turns everything it’s on into a seemingly 2D surface, so one basically wouldn’t have a face.

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kupo
kupo
2 years ago

I am sympathetic to the difficulties here, though – because as is so often the case when it comes to personal expression, women have a lot more leeway than men.

Except we don’t. We’re penalized for doing it wrong, constantly. And all of the ways are wrong. Too much? Self-centered and/or slutty. Too little? Not trying hard enough. Too natural? Lying liars. Too unnatural? Unprofessional.

Jesalin: Clit-o-centric Lesbian Goddess
Jesalin: Clit-o-centric Lesbian Goddess
2 years ago

I am sympathetic to the difficulties here, though – because as is so often the case when it comes to personal expression, women have a lot more leeway than men

Yeah, no.

Jane Done
Jane Done
2 years ago

Aaron: “Really subtle application of makeup” is already a thing. It’s a thing that lots of women do. It’s so much a thing that there are hundreds of thousands of stories of women who get told “you look better without makeup” by clueless dudes (and that’s just the women who bothered to write it down).

You see, the whole “lots of women do ____, so it must be easy” reasoning doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Except we don’t. We’re penalized for doing it wrong, constantly. And all of the ways are wrong. Too much? Self-centered and/or slutty. Too little? Not trying hard enough. Too natural? Lying liars. Too unnatural? Unprofessional.

Don’t wear it all? Then we’re not even trying and how can we possibly be expected to land a job and/or a man if we don’t even care enough about ourselves to have a makeup regimen?

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

Aaron, maybe you could not tell us all about your sympathy for incels?

Aaron
Aaron
2 years ago

@Jane Doe – I should have been clearer: of course it’s a thing. It’s also a difficult thing, with a high failure rate and a learning curve. And this is important, because the social consequences for a man “caught” wearing makeup can be very substantial; this is generally not the case for women.

(This is not to say that women cannot be judged at all for their cosmetic/sartorial choices – obviously they can be, and are – indeed often more harshly than men. But certain Red Pill mathematicians aside, it is socially acceptable for women to wear makeup.)

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

But certain Red Pill mathematicians aside, it is socially acceptable for women to wear makeup.

But it’s not socially acceptable for women not to wear makeup. And, as I mentioned above, there is no “right” way for women to wear makeup. It’s all wrong, no matter what we do. We don’t have the freedom of expression that you implied. It’s like pieces of flair. We’re required to “express” ourselves through our style, but we also have to intuit what’s the proper amount and enthusiasm level for doing so, and if we try to ask what we’re doing wrong we’re told to just put more effort into it, like that’s helpful.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

I think the correct answer to the question “does men or women get penalized more for expressing themselves ?” is “we don’t care”.

As in, going in circle to see who is more oppressed by the patriarchy don’t strike me as productive. Especially when it come down to compare subjective, context-dependant consequences like wearing make up in an inappropriate manner. It’s like trying to compare if in a factory, being scalded by steam is more or less painful than being hit by a piston ; the problem is workspace safety, and the way to improve it will be the same regardless of what is more painful.

Now, I do empathize with how thoses guys have bucked under societal pressures. I still remember that their answers to that pressures have becoming an assholes and try to force the social norme even more than usual.

Wwaxwork
Wwaxwork
2 years ago

If you can’t tell I’m wearing make up maybe stop getting your ideas of what women “naturally” look like from porn. If you can’t tell my lips are not naturally bright red, my eyelids aren’t naturally shiny & skin doesn’t naturally have a sparkly highlight on the cheeks maybe you’re too dumb to date.

Aaron
Aaron
2 years ago

@Kupo – Fair enough. I don’t intend to set this up as some kind of competition. I was just trying to explain why some men might be reluctant to use makeup to enhance their appearance, even if the idea appeals to them.

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

@Jane Done

It’s so much a thing that there are hundreds of thousands of stories of women who get told “you look better without makeup” by clueless dudes (and that’s just the women who bothered to write it down).

With illustrations, too.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/fm5Ok

@Aaron

And this is important, because the social consequences for a man “caught” wearing makeup can be very substantial

It is assumed that there will be serious consequences. That’s not quite the same thing.