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Incels hail Toronto van driver who killed 10 as a new Elliot Rodger, talk of future acid attacks and mass rapes [UPDATED]

Alek Minassian: The new Elliot Rodger?

UPDATE: The CBC has confirmed with Facebook that Minassian’s post declaring himself an incel and hailing Elliot Rodger is real. 

By David Futrelle

As I write this, it’s still not completely clear if Alek Minassian, the alleged driver of the van that killed ten pedestrians in Toronto yesterday in what appeared to be a very deliberate attack, is in fact a self-identified “involuntary celibate” trying to take revenge against the “Chads” and “Stacies” and other “normies” he blames for ruining his life — or if these reports are simply some sort of 4chan-style hoax.

But on the Incels.me forum, one of the more egregious hangouts for incels online, many are already hailing the alleged mass murderer as one of their own.

In an assortment of threads that popped up after the news media began to report on a supposed Facebook post from Minassian announcing that “the Incel Rebellion has … begun,” some of the Incels.me regulars are celebrating the killings and the alleged killer as “life fuel” for them and their nihilistic, misogynistic, misanthropic “movement.” (Click on the pics below to see the comments in context on Incels.me.)

 Letting Go SE Asia or bust - JoinedMar 12, 2018 Messages1,167 Yesterday at 9:53 PM#52 Bronzehawkattack said: I really want it to be true that the guy was an incel lmao I just want to find out that a bunch of Chads and foids were killed.

 KiryuKazuma Recruit - JoinedApr 8, 2018 Messages27 Today at 12:16 AM#2 Alek Minassian. Spread that name, speak of his sacrifice for our cause, worship him for he gave his life for our future. CopeWithTheRope CopeWithTheRope Officer - JoinedJan 2, 2018 Messages826 Today at 12:19 AM#3 Top fucking kek

 gstvtrp Modcel - JoinedNov 7, 2017 Messages1,701 Today at 12:21 AM#6 The message is getting out. We're mainstream now

Naturally, it didn’t take long for one of the regular commenters to adopt a picture of Minassian as his avatar.

 Garbage Veteran - JoinedFeb 16, 2018 Messages1,063 Today at 12:27 AM#17 the incel revolution has begun

But no one was quite so enthusiastic about the killings as the commenter calling himself BlkPillPres, who wondered if the killer had taken the advice he had given in a previous thread to use something other than guns in his “ER” — that is, Elliot Rodger-style — attack.

 BlkPillPres BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Yesterday at 10:25 PM#61 If he is incel I wonder if he saw my thread TOP KEK - https://incels.me/threads/more-mass...od-thing-hopefully-er-rapes-will-begin.31789/ This shit right here is lifefuel for me and exactly what I was talking about, too many ER guys are using guns so its expected and they get taken down very quickly these days, not only that but having these killings only take place with guns makes normies feel safe. Since this guy used a vehicle now the whole "ban guns" spiel looks like retarded coping, you can't ban hatred, hatred is all it takes to go do a mass killing event. This is literally what I asked for, finally somebody breaking the mold, next up how about a guy who breaks into a condom vending machine at night, pokes holes in all the condoms and closes the machine. I would love to see the end result of that shit, pure lifefuel. So many normie males will get trapped in unwated lives ;) ER doesn't always have to be violent, it just needs to be strategic and punish normies in some way, they need to be in constant fear for EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR LIFE, killing normies from my perspective is kinda pointless but this is still good, I prefer acid attacks to mass killings though, wonder who is going to do a "mass acid attack". He will have zero kills to his high score but in my book he'd have beaten all the high scores by virtue of lives ruined and BLACK PILLS FORCED DOWN PEOPLES THROATS. All the normies who used to think "looks don't matter" will not get to test the theory lol.

Many in the media and in politics are unwilling to label attacks driven by misogynistic ideology as terrorism — often declaring them to be simply the result of “mental illness,” as many did in the case of Elliot Rodger’s murders (ignoring his hundred page manifesto), and as the authorities are already doing in the Toronto attacks.

But misogyny is not mental illness; it’s hate. And what BlkPillPres is talking about here is essentially the dictionary definition of terrorism — “[t]he unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” The tactics he suggests are an explicit attempt to subject “normies” to “constant fear” — that is, terror — in all areas of their lives, in order to advance BlkPillPres’ goal of “black pilling” the world and intimidating those who criticize incels into silence.

Following his link back to the older thread, one quickly discovers that it is even more disturbing. In it, BlkPillPres sets out what he sees as the virtues of various terroristic strategies, from acid attacks to mass rape to vehicle attacks like the one we saw yesterday.  (If you are feeling at all fragile you may wish to stop reading this post right here.)

 BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Mar 27, 2018#1 http://www.wkyt.com/content/news/He...threatening-to-kill-classmates-477916203.html I'm glad this shit is happening because I think mass shootings are too inefficient and pointless anyways, I want to see some mass food poisoning deaths, maybe a pipe bomb or two, or hopefully somebody finally uses a fucking truck to just ram down roasties during a school parade or something, mix it up a little. As more and more get stopped like this, sooner or later everybody will start getting the message, that mass shootings are obsolete, and they'll need to seek out less predictable methods of "going ER". What I can't wait for, the one I know is really going to fuck with normies, really punish society, is when the first incel mass rape/serial rape takes place, when a guy leaves a manifesto after killing himself detailing all the rapes he's done, that will be the best ER ever, because his victims don't just get to die, and their families don't just get to "move on". These women will be traumatized, some might kill themselves before or after their rape begins to get coverage, their families will have to endure the shame, etc that comes with this, the women will have to endure reliving the rape everyday, endure months to years of therapy sessions. Not to mention we will be spamming his image and memeing him into an immortal internet presence as we have for Elliot Rodger, they won't ever be able to forget, and society won't be able to either, and it is at that moment that normies will truly fear us, you see if we kill them then everyone gets to move on, and the ones left alive get to have to cope of "they're in a better place", but if we rape instead of murder for ER, they don't get to move on, they don't get these BS copes to ease their pain. Women fear rape more than death, because it is a many forcefully taking the only thing from her that makes her have worth, her sexuality, now imagine an incel raped you, and having the world know about it, chad won't even be able to look at his cheerleader GF the same after she's been defiled by an incel. ITS OVER for her dream life lol.

Others in the thread suggests that this all sounds great to them, with one aiming some of his ire at the IncelTears subreddit, which is devoted to criticizing Incels on Reddit and elsewhere.

 Apr 1, 2018#14 Deep down cucktears knows that if mass ERing happens, people will be afraid of mocking subhuman males. Humans have no empathy for men. Only fear sends a message. Facecel, heightcel, dickcel, ethnicel. ​ "Women are nothing but machines for producing children." - Napoleon Bonaparte "We won't kill you. We will just shoot your vagina. If there is no vagina, you would be useless." - Rodrigo Duterte King_of_morons King_of_morons Mineta wouldn’t be hated if he were a 6’4 chad. - JoinedNov 8, 2017 Messages276 Apr 1, 2018#15 The incel uprising is nigh.

Other commenters offer their own even more horrifying ideas.

yukreic Recruit - JoinedFeb 17, 2018 Messages6 Apr 8, 2018#16 look up flamethrowers on youtube. easy to make. don't know why everyone just uses guns. not effective against crowds. SaintMarcLepine SaintMarcLepine Thot Exterminator - JoinedNov 8, 2017 Messages1,490 Apr 8, 2018#17 Someone needs to get some acid, hook it up to a sprinkler and just spray concerts, festivals etc.

Like Ub2w, BlkPillPres is especially taken with the acid-in-the-face tactic.

 BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Apr 9, 2018#39 Ub2w said: Rape? What some people need is an acid bath, enough to melt their face but not kill them, basically forcing them to live as truecels There should be a middle ground, rape them then acid face attack, because I don't get any enjoyment really by just fucking their looks up. If anything now its doubly more psychologically damaging, the last person to enjoy their beauty was by force, in a way you claimed a priceless treasure for yourself, you are the last person to enjoy and ravage their beauty before it is destroyed. Think I just found my MO if I become a rapist. Its like the reverse of the JBF (Just Be First) rule, JBL (Just Be Last) kek

“Kek.”

Sadly, as someone who has been writing about incels for several years now, none of this is surprising. Disturbing, yes, but not surprising. Incel is a hate movement, and it is long past time for it to be treated as such.

NOTE: The reaction amongst Reddit incels has been more measured; I may delve into that in a future post.

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Cindy
Cindy
2 years ago

@Violet

Yeah, I’m still trying to… just process this mess. I just hope we won’t get any copycats.

Nightflyer
Nightflyer
2 years ago

The narcissism and self-entitlement of these people is incredible…I’ve rarely seen such egotism. I am glad the mainstream media is focusing on them, so that the danger can be seen and exposed — how they unite and fuel each other’s fury on the internet and inspire each other to cause chaos.

More importantly, we have to find ways to prevent these people from acting out or falling into these destructive and self-destructive behaviors. As police chiefs point out, “We cannot arrest our way out of crime.” That’s addressing the issue AFTER the horror, instead of preventing it.

We need awareness and intervention. That obviously has to start with the family — when parents realize their son is behaving badly, for example — and continue in schools and workplaces. There is also the medical research needed — identifying medical causes and medication that can address issues.

We don’t seem to be learning from the trail of blood that has been created by these people and the horrors they cause. The Canadian guy is not unique — he was inspired by Elliot Rodger. Before him, there was Richard Wade Farley, who is still on California’s death row. Before that, there was Jack the Ripper.

We need to do the work now to prevent tragedy later.

mcbender
2 years ago

@Katamount, @left_wing_fox

I had a similar trajectory too! I definitely flirted with MRA/PUA ideology for a bit as a teenager thanks to gaming forums (ugh), before eventually getting out. I think it might’ve been a bit earlier than you two – Captain Awkward certainly wasn’t around then, at least (that said, she gets my highest recommendation!) though it was advice communities and blogs that helped me too. I remember thinking something like ‘even if these men are right, I should know what women have to say about relationships’ and then realising they made a lot more sense and the PUAs were full of shit. All it took was a bit of empathy and thinking about the fact that multiple people were involved (that said, “women are people” may be a surprisingly difficult intellectual jump for a lot of manospherians).

The irony is that I’m on the asexual spectrum (demisexual), which might’ve also played a role, for better or worse. I remember thinking the lifestyle PUAs were offering sounded miserable, and because they framed everything as a straightforward level-up progression from ‘AFC’ (‘average frustrated chump’, yes) to PUA, it just threw everything into question. I wanted insight into how to find companionship and build connections with people; I’m heteroromantic, and those were the kind of connections I was really looking for even if I didn’t have the ability to express that at the time. And mainstream culture conflates companionship/romance and sex, or even erases the former in favour of the latter, so “how do relationships work” often gets replaced by “how to get laid”; PUA culture just takes that to a ludicrous extreme. I think there might be something to that pathway, though – lonely people who don’t really know how to socialise, internalising toxic value systems from the culture that surrounds them, being given bad advice, and then diving further into the ideology when it backfires on them. I don’t say this to excuse them, far from it, I’m just looking for explanations.

(The other thing I’ve always thought is that a lot of these people think life should be like a movie. The “hero” is rewarded by “getting the girl” and then they ride off into the sunset the end. In a way it’s no wonder they don’t care about the actual relationship part; they can’t see past the credits!)

“Elevatorgate” was definitely the thing that dropped the scales from my eyes though, and definitely marks the point at which I started getting seriously into feminism and realising just how much work needed to be done. I definitely read feminist content before that, from time to time, but it was mostly because bloggers I liked for their atheist or political content happened to be talking about it.

I don’t really know how you get people out of these ideologies, despite having thought about it a fair amount and made some attempts; the only “success stories” I know of are of people who either got themselves out (which as you say, takes work), or “dodged the bullet” so to speak before getting in too deep (apologies for the mixed metaphors). And especially the incels nowadays are so deeply committed to viciousness that I suspect they may be irredeemable, so in pragmatic terms we’re better off trying to figure out how the pipeline works and cut people off before they get there, rather than trying to redeem the ones who are already there. I fully understand anyone who doesn’t want to forgive ex-manospherians the harm they’ve already done, because that’s real and shouldn’t be ignored, but there is also a definite benefit in organisations like Life After Hate that provide them a landing place to help keep them from reverting. I think that’s important work, even if only viewed in terms of preventing more victims from being hurt by the people they’re trying to rehabilitate.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@Anne
Sorry, just now saw your post. Is it this domain? If so, we can contact go daddy (email address is in the registry info). https://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=Register-her.com

@Pissed off by incels
That you, f-guy?

Pearl Clutcher
Pearl Clutcher
2 years ago

I just want to add my 5 cents to the good ole mental illness excuse…

Mentally ill people are far more often victims of violent crimes than perpetrators of violent crimes.

It’s just a sh*tty derailing technique.

Dana
Dana
2 years ago

Wow, wonder why these guys can’t get laid? I also wonder how many of them have whinged about how women never go for “nice guys,” as if that somehow describes them.

Oddly enough, most women prefer to have sex with men who treat them as people, rather than as a support system for a vagina. I know men who are average-looking and middle- or working-class who have managed to find happy relationships. The things these guys have in common is that they’re not whiny, angry, entitled dicks.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
2 years ago

thanks @kupo. @pissedoffatincels seems very strange…and familiar.

WTF is wrong with those idiots called incels? They cannot get laid so they lash out at women and the rest of the society?

no, they lash out at women because society told them they deserve women. it isn’t about sex. it’s about control. they want women as possession, or like a slave who will only do what they exactly order them. women is for status – society tells them that plenty women = high status. they want to collect women, control women and use sex like a high score.

these incels believe something “owed”to them, because that is what society tells to young men – they will “get a girl”. and when they don’t get what they owed? they get revenge, or they want revenge. they are like severe symptom of a disease which many men little bit infected with. disease called toxic masculinity.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who though that sounded like FGuy. I don’t want to assume though. We’ll just see if they come back and post more I guess.

numerobis
numerobis
2 years ago

CBC, Toronto Star, Le Devoir, Guardian, Vox now reporting on incels.

Le Devoir does a particularly thorough job of explaining the dog whistles:
https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/526125/le-portrait-de-alek-minassian-se-dessine

LaPresse is arguing it’s hard to know why this guy decided to kill; it’s probably not autism, but it could be, and how can we be sure? LeSigh.

NYT focuses on the amazing fact that sometimes cops don’t kill people. Which I guess *is* probably the more important part of the story for the US — lots more Americans die from police bullets than from terrorism.

R
R
2 years ago

@weirwood,

I wasn’t referring to the physical condition of being fat, but rather as a metaphor for the kind of entitlement certain Western people possess. Granted, it was not a well-thought-out metaphor, but muscle relaxers can only relieve pain, not clear the mind, and I was on a bit of a rampage last night. :p

Hope that clears things up a bit.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Yeah, but the reason “fat” could be a metaphor for lazy and entitled is because fat people actually do get called things like that. So please don’t use fat as a synonym for negative things anymore.

GenJones
GenJones
2 years ago

Freedom of speech is one thing, but since when is networking and building an idealogical terrorist movement legal? This is well beyond the point someone should be stepping in. These are opaque threats.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

To return to Cohen, I would also point out that the idea that X is more common in radicalized people (or make it easier to get radicalized), regardless of X, need to be well substantied, and by that more than “it make sense !”. ’cause extreme right people in my experience come from poor and rich alike, from wrathful and peaceful people, from educated and uneducated people, from intelligent and stupid people.

For my part, I know a lot of people who are moderate MRA. Myself I really dodged that bullet hard, and entirely by chance. I am persuaded I alway was a very small step away from being one of thoses rage-filled husks.

Jen
Jen
2 years ago

what does “kek” mean?

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@Ohlmann
What is a “moderate MRA”? And how does one not become an MRA “entirely by chance”?

solecism
solecism
2 years ago

I gotta say, it took me a long time to realize misogyny existed in the world. I mean, I knew I was a person. It didn’t occur to me that there were people out there who didn’t consider people perceived as women as actual human people. I didn’t realize that until way too late in life. Mind was blown. It just didn’t occur to me that personhood would be a point of contention for already existing human beings.

It’s kinda similar to my reaction to the whole birther bullshit. I mean, Obama’s mother is a US citizen, ergo, he’s a citizen too regardless of where he was born. End of story. And yet not. I still don’t really get it. Why is this even a question? I get that it’s politics, but c’mon.

@GenJones

Freedom of speech is one thing, but since when is networking and building an idealogical terrorist movement legal?

slave patrols
Ku Klux Klan
antiabortion movement

pretty much any campaign of violence orchestrated by white men through US American history to maintain some flavor of the status quo

gwf
gwf
2 years ago

These posters need to be outed and also indicted.

DawnPurityseeker
DawnPurityseeker
2 years ago

@Alan

I’m going to think about your post and come back to it. 🙂

@Valentin

Having a good, easy life does not mean that one will be free of suffering and mental illness, though. 🙂

Personally I’ve never noticed that poor men act any less entitled to my affection than middle class men do. Yeah, poor men may think it’s because they don’t have their own place, or car, and not because they have a feminine hair cowlick like ER may have thought, but imo the underlying entitlement to women (and their affection) is the same.

“women is for status – society tells them that plenty women = high status. they want to collect women, control women and use sex like a high score…

I don’t know why my phone won’t copy the rest of your post, but this entire post is very well said. And very true. So have some internets. 🙂

Re:mental illness

I’m not quoting any one person because a bunch of people have been talking about it. But Imo it is offensive to make any blanket statement about mental illness. It’s offensive to blanket blame mental illness for violence. It’s also offensive to act like some people don’t struggle with anger and violence as part of their mental illness.

@Jo

“Short answer, no, they probably have not! Not in real life because they’re screen addicts – and the media they consume doesn’t portray realistic relationships.”

Still don’t get them. :p

I talk to my kids about media and relationships. Presumably these guys have had parents, or older relatives, or teachers, or other adults in their lives. If all else fails, there’s google. Reality is everywhere, if they wanted to see it.

GenJones
GenJones
2 years ago

pretty much any campaign of violence orchestrated by white men through US American history to maintain some flavor of the status quo

Hmmm, touche. And segregation, internment camps, the shit ICE is doing. And maybe that’s sort of the point.

Let me rephrase: Threats are not protected speech.

I understand the First Amendment, you can’t ban racial slurs or throw someone in prison for being a Hitler fan. But when someone says they’ve “found their MO” and is saying things like “we actually need to be going out literally committing more mass killings, raping and maiming”, it has crossed the line where authorities should be taking it seriously before they actually carry it out with the encouragement of their ingroup. When people say they want to assassinate a public official or shoot up a school, they are investigated. As David himself put it in the original post, these are laying out terrorist strategies. This is planning.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

Kupo : a moderate one is one who is outwardly against all the horrors said by the MRAs and incels, but it’s actually very visible that they rail quite a bit to not be the all powerful male that they feel entitled to be. Just, they aren’t (yet ? I hope not.) at the level of rage and delusion of the actual MRAs.

As for not becoming by sheer chance : at the moment where I was the most hate-filled, something made me try to see the world through the eye of another people. Which is the point where a lot of anger and demonization start to be blatantly silly. That wasn’t due to me being exceptional, or nice, or well-educated, or anything. It, really, was because of random happenstance.

(I *do* often kind of envy the MRA/neo-nazi/incel world vision. It would be *terribly* convenient and easier to have a scapegoat who is the lone responsible of everything. It make trying to make the world a better place infinitely easier by reducing “being a good person” to “attack the scapegoat”. And it make news a lot easier to parse)

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
2 years ago

@Ohlmann:
That’s part of the problem, of course. To quote:

Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong. — H. L. Mencken

Often paraphrased the way I first heard it, as ‘For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.’

The real world does nuance whether anybody is willing to admit it or not.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

I was telling my husband about what incels are. He stopped me, asked to hear no more, lest he completely lose his temper. Like most of the people I know face to face, he’s such a normie he is unfamiliar with the term normie. As a Black queer pagan in the United States, he knows how appalling some straight white men can be, but this was new and unwelcome.

I’ve been seeing some discussion on Facebook from other people I know who are seeing what’s under this particular big flat rock. Most of them are surprised, all are revolted. My eldest brother made the interesting comment that he realized in his early teens that the only ways to get what he wanted in life were theft, charm or work. He refused the first, was incapable of the second, and resigned himself to the third. He had a full, successful career and a long, stable marriage which is still going well.

ADMO
ADMO
2 years ago

Hi, long-time lurker here,
I wanted to firstly thank David for this forum and the loyal community for their thoughts and educational commentary.
I don’t think I would have dared to post a comment here were it not for the news from Toronto today. To me it shows the value of this blog and the unpleasant work that you do in researching it.
I honestly thought (despite other evidence) that the rather ridiculous beliefs of a tiny minority of mostly North American males did not matter. Today I was proven wrong and that sometimes the things people write are dangerous and remain toxic to the credulous online.
My sympathies are with those directly concerned and to all Canadians,
ADMO.

MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
2 years ago

Sorry, I’m late to the ‘party’. Man, these Incels are absolutely terrifying! Even if this is all talk, there is a real risk of one of them carrying out an attack, because many men have committed such attacks. It only takes one of them to think that this is a good enough idea to commit an atrocity. I mean, Eliot Rodger, Alek Minassian and many others thought this was a good idea, what’s stopping one of these guys from doing the same?

MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
MissEB47 (Resident Rainbow Lorikeet and Beak Typist)
2 years ago

solecism

“I gotta say, it took me a long time to realize misogyny existed in the world. I mean, I knew I was a person. It didn’t occur to me that there were people out there who didn’t consider people perceived as women as actual human people. I didn’t realize that until way too late in life. Mind was blown. It just didn’t occur to me that personhood would be a point of contention for already existing human beings.”

Same here. It was only a few years ago that I found out how deep misogyny goes (thanks to discovering the existence of MRAs, Red Pillers, Incels, and PUAs and their attitudes towards women. Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss) did I realise how desperately feminism is needed. Many men find it acceptable to see women as objects. It’s depressing. 😞

Silo
Silo
2 years ago

These guys need to refocus their rage away from women and towards the lies we have all been fed about romance, sex and status. And with compassion for all of us who are hopelessly caught up in the trap set by the big machine run by media, reject the ideas that you need to have a partner or sex or any status indicator to have self worth. Reject that idea and have self worth regardless – focus on that and thrn start a revolution.

CCD
CCD
2 years ago

It should be officially recognized as a terrorist and hate movement, and those posting about committing violence should be on a terrorist watch list. I am sick of this shit being ignored. The intelligence community should be monitoring these guys and stopping them before they mass murder people.

Also, and I may get some disagreement on this, but to hell with men running the world. I believe that men, if they try, can avoid becoming violent… I just have absolutely zero faith that enough men the world over would be willing to try. I think they enjoy the idea of violence too much. There are plenty of women in the world who strike out in the dating department, or don’t even try due to social awkwardness, disability, etc, and they don’t channel their feelings into such entitlement, anger, and violence. After millennia of being oppressed by the male gender, who took advantage of the situation when women were involuntarily burdened with constant childbearing in order to install themselves as first-class citizens and dictators for life, and who took to raping and murdering and plundering their way through history, I am soooooo out of chances to give for men to get their act together. Women should run the world’s governments. It would be a much more peaceful and progressive place.

Bina
2 years ago

Just popping my head back in to say how heartened I am at the recent spate of media articles delving into the incel phenomenon, as ugly as it is. And I actually learned something surprising, recently, too: the term was actually coined by a Toronto woman, back in 1993! Her name is given only as Alana, and she’s chagrined, to say the least, that her neutral descriptive portmanteau has been hijacked by these shitfuckers. She started an internet forum for misfits who had trouble finding love and relationships, and it was meant to be a safe, healing space for those struggling with their sexuality and/or lack thereof. Of course, a bunch of dudes with unrealistic expectations and narcissistic megalomania had to take something a woman created, claim they invented it themselves, and then turn it into a shitpile. Typical.

BTW, I really like Jo’s analysis of an imaginary (but representative) incel dude, too. That vicious cycle of sullenness/rejection/more sullenness/more rejection just keeps getting bigger and meaner with every go-round, doesn’t it?

Also nthing whoever diagnosed incel toxic masculinity/hatefulness as a byproduct of capitalism. Yes! That’s it exactly. Sorry I can’t remember who said it, I’ve been scrolling through the last 2-3 pages to play catchup, but that hits it right on the head, too. Men who see women as commodities, and dating as a marketplace, and women’s looks/fertility (and men’s looks/virility) as “sexual market value”? Sounds like capitalism to me. The problem would no doubt benefit from some socialist analysis — capitalism pits people against each other, scraps those who no longer have utility (or never had enough of it to begin with), and makes us buy crap we don’t need to impress people we don’t like, with money we don’t have.

‘Course, this shouldn’t be construed as suggesting (as at least one luckless wanker has already famously done in the incelsphere) that government should provide men with women in a misguided form of “wealth redistribution”. It will never work that way! Because PEOPLE ARE NOT COMMODITIES, AND WOMEN ARE PEOPLE, DAMMIT. And because, also, that isn’t socialism…that’s state capitalism. And also, finally, because that’s just fucking stupid. Even if every one of these guys got placated with a government-allocated partner tomorrow, they’d still end up losing her in no time because in all their years of inceldom, they’ve learned nothing about how to get along with others, and not be such a bitter, steaming pile of fuckery. The government can do a lot of things, but one thing it can’t do is compel a woman to stay with a man who repels her with his awful behavior. Women have died fleeing abusive men, just as refugees have died fleeing wars. They know there’s a chance that they won’t survive, but they will run anyway…because staying behind means death is not just a chance, but a certainty.

Also wanted to nth anybody who says that hateful people can’t just be converted by preaching at them from a soapbox. They need to first gain self-awareness, to see how awful their hate movement is. They have to WANT to stop before a program to help them stop can work for them. Hate is wildly addictive, just like crack or meth, and until you hit bottom, you can’t climb out; you don’t have the desire to do so until then. While I admire anyone with the nerve and the resources to do outreach, in the end it’s more of a “don’t go to them, let them come to you” kind of situation. You can’t reach them until they’re ready to BE reached. And you can’t MAKE them ready.

And all that being said: Forums for recovering hate-mongers of any stripe would be a welcome thing. Those who got radicalized via the Internet can also be de-radicalized that way. And if you build it, they will come…because deep down, a lot of them must be thinking that there has got to be a better way, and they just haven’t found it yet. I’m really, REALLY hoping that this latest incident shocks them into finding that self-awareness, realizing they don’t want to be that guy, and prompts them to want to change.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

@Silo

These guys need to refocus their rage away from women and towards the lies we have all been fed about romance, sex and status. And with compassion for all of us who are hopelessly caught up in the trap set by the big machine run by media, reject the ideas that you need to have a partner or sex or any status indicator to have self worth. Reject that idea and have self worth regardless – focus on that and thrn start a revolution.

With all due respect, I want absolutely no incels or recovering incels involved in any kind of revolution until they have spent a long, long time with their heads fully removed from their asses. I have no faith in their kind of rage ever being able to be channeled into a positive force, because it seems entirely based around forcing others to suffer. We don’t need them to rechannel that rage anywhere; it’s destructive and toxic no matter where it’s pointed at. We need them to stop expressing that rage and to smother the thought processes that lead them into that rage.

occasional reader
occasional reader
2 years ago

Hello.

Le Monde also made a short article on that :
the article
It is a very general article, you will find nothing new in it.

Have a nice day.

Ellesar
Ellesar
2 years ago

Whilst the viciousness and rampant hate are real and disgusting I still have a problem taking the vast majority of these boys/ men seriously. They are so extreme that it has become almost cartoonish.

I know that that does not make any difference to the victims of the rare one who actually do kill or injure, but I can’t help feeling that the loudest voices are never going to be the ones doing the deeds.

As for the mass rape idea – isn’t that already happening? Surely no one believes that men who rape women don’t hate women? The reason we do not hear about mass rape is because most rapes are unreported. To be honest I am a bit surprised that the ones advocating mass rape have not pointed that out.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Seems that this fool was very possibly a member of incels.me – they’ve been doing their own detective work in amongst the denial.

Emailed David the details (and he’s received them. Wouldn’t be posting even a hint unless he’d had time to screenshot/archive stuff. Don’t want the buggers to go memory holing their crap. 😛 ).

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

@Jo: I really appreciated your biography of an incel, thanks.

One thing occurred to me while reading it, about how much of their view of relationships is based on porn. Male porn actors in conventional porn aren’t necessarily the best looking guys. After all, they’re not cast for their faces, they’re cast for their ability to get erections on demand and sustain them. My automatic thought was “Wait a minute, how does this play into the incel worldview? After all, doesn’t this show that average-looking guys can get the girl?” Then of course I realized that this would just make their inferiority complex worse: Either they assume they’re uglier than the porn stars, or that women are such b*tches that an average-looking guy can only get their attention with Chad-ian level of endurance. (How the women can discern this without sleeping with the guy in question, I can’t imagine.) Add to that the fact that the pretty rapey way the men act in mainstream porn doesn’t work so well in the real world, and no wonder their views are messed up.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Hello my new friends; lots of people I don’t recognize! Welcome, please find your misandry-scented gift baskets on the table to your right.

@CCD

Also, and I may get some disagreement on this, but to hell with men running the world

:3

I don’t think you’ll find much pushback on that idea here my duck.

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bluecat
bluecat
2 years ago

Thank you for the illuminating discussions as ever. It was interesting to hear someone explaining “incels” on Radio 4 Today programme this morning.

It’s a minor point, I know, but I do sometimes wonder about the “cel” bit. Just keep flashing back to a conversation I had about 10 years ago with a younger family member who maintained, with a lot of grumbling, that he’d never had a girlfriend.

But he had – at least 2 that we had met.

Turned out he didn’t count them because, according to him they were “not that pretty”.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

Hi everyone new! Help yourself to the We Hunted The Mammoth Welcome Package! https://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

You got it, @bluecat.

For a lot of guys, women aren’t people, they’re a ladder to respect and power. They’ll never be satisfied.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
2 years ago

…I liked it better when “Kek” meant, to me, the pre-Ra Egyptian God of the last moment of darkness before dawn broke free. These people ruin everything they touch, even when they don’t mean to and that is just so unbearably upsetting.

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
2 years ago

@Cats In Shiny Hats No kidding. And Pepe the Frog was just a comic book character.

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