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“Are Women Really Human?” asks the MGTOW meme of the day

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MGTOW Friday continues with this lovely meme, found in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.

You’ll be happy to learn that most of the MGTOWs commenting on the meme do in fact believe that women are human, and possibly even deserving of some of the same rights as men.

“Women are human and have certain human rights,” says someone calling himself Whiskeybandit67. “They are assholes, but human.”

Ayy-Mayy-ZoSuperwoah, meanwhile, thinks it’s “twisted” to say that women aren’t human.

Yeah women don’t really contribute much value to humanity, but that doesn’t make them less than human. Whoever wrote this is deranged. Deprive them of the right to vote maybe, and maybe to work some jobs, in other words, strip some circumstantial privileges, but to strip them of human rights? Like what, exactly?

I guess this is what passes for a voice of reason on the MGTOW subreddit, huh?

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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

My sympathy to all englishmen.

Doubly so in that I fear it will help May stay in power, even tho she is likely the least able people in all England to defeat terrorism.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

“Transracial” ?

What the shit ?

Okay, that happened while I was sleeping, and I’m glad he got banned before I woke up. Anyways, while I’d never heard of “transracial” before (some of you sound like you have, is it some talking point I’ve somehow missed ?) the whole thing sounded really fucking familiar.

That was Mick Dash/Euroguy, wasn’t it ?

On a lighter note, my skin’s pretty white but my genealogy screams the opposite like I’m Jim Crow’s nightmare in camouflage whiteface. Does that make me “transracial” ? If so, from what did I transition and to what ? Also, there’s some Jewish ancestry not too far up the tree, does that change anything ?

Oh yeah, and of course the whole male-presenting agender business. Does that interact in any way with the transracial thing ?

SO MANY QUESTIONS that will never be answered, and that’s for the best.

@Fran

Hai there, I replied to you on page 9 but you probably missed it what with the speed this thread’s going, like I’d missed your previous reply until I went back and caught up.

Also

Will Miggytoes accept Transmen in their ranks? What’s the official Manosphere stance on transmen?

I don’t find it too hard to imagine they’d go the classic TERF route, especially since they love TERFs as they are the only feminists they don’t have to strawman too much to even start forming an argument.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@Sinkable John,

TERF was exactly what came to mind when I thought about this, too. MRAs could maybe accept transmen, as long as (or especially if) they lined up with the rhetoric, but not MGTOWs, imho 🙂

@Empress Fran,
Nothing in particular, just <3 <3 <3

Lysistrata
Lysistrata
3 years ago

@Valentine
Re: “A hand over the mouth inside my brain”. That is a strong image, beautifully worded. I expect that when you write, it’s very good. Like a lot of others here, I really liked your expression “releasing excitement”. You said something about putting the Russian expression into English. I come from a Ukrainian-speaking family (not me, wasn’t allowed, long story) and with one stellar exception, none of them have ever said anything half so charming in English. You have a gift.

I’m sorry for the bad thing that happened to you in 2015. I look forward to reading here, one day, that you have been writing more.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

@KatieKitten420

I remember experiencing similar bi erasure 20 odd years ago. I’m sad but not surprised that it still happens. Internet hugs if you’d like them.

@Arctic Ape

Excellent use of quote.

GNU Terry Pratchett

@Everyone else

Much love and thoughts to London Mammotheers, from 50 miles south.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ weatherwax

from 50 miles south.

At first I thought that put you in the Channel, so I was “cool, an actual mermaid!”. But after a quick recalculation I’m guessing Brighton (or “Hove-Actually”). But it resonates a bit because I do associate London Bridge with day trips down there.

Ellesar
Ellesar
3 years ago

Sad day for me – I live less than 2 miles from where the latest terrorist attack in London has happened. I keep crying.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ ellesar

Hugs if you need them.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Just when you think Trump can’t sink any lower, he’s now using last night’s attack to run the ‘if you have gun control they’ll only use knives’ argument. And slagging off our mayor generally.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/04/trump-berates-london-mayor-sadiq-khan-terror-attacks

Says a lot that this is the second time Sadiq Khan has had to say I’m too busy doing useful things to respond to Trump’.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

he’s now using last night’s attack to run the ‘if you have gun control they’ll only use knives’ argument.

Although this is true, I’m pretty sure the body count would have been higher if they’d had guns instead of knives.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Francesca

HALT YOUR ENGINES. LOWER YOUR SHIELDS. WE WILL HAVE QUICK, CONSENSUAL, SEX. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE unless you use the safe word, WHICH IS PINEAPPLE. WE ARE THE TRANSWOMEN.

Transmen and transwomen:

I hadn’t thought of it that way. It makes sense though that trans men would get more respect. I have an old saying that I think applies to this… “When a woman imitates a man, her status goes up. When a man imitates a woman, his status goes down.” Setting aside for a second that trans folk are not imitators, this does point at what’s going on – that person looks like a man, so they get respect under patriarchy. That person looks like a woman, so they don’t get respect. And of course, a woman becoming a man is admirable because men are worthy of respect, but a man becoming a woman is not.

Will Miggytoes accept Transmen in their ranks? What’s the official Manosphere stance on transmen?

That trans men are women. There’s a venn diagram with 100% overlap between migtoes and white supremacists, plus the whole “There are only two genders” nonsense they often spout.

That said, trans men don’t have to worry about being beaten in the street. So I do envy their position.

@KatieKitten

I’ve seen it before. I just don’t have a reason why people would do it. Like so many other things, bisexual erasure makes no sense, and it’s hard for me to track and identify things that make no sense.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Policy of Madness

The “Criminals will just use other weapons” form of non-arguing against gun control depends on willfully assigning no value to the fact that if the criminals were using almost any weapon aside from firearms, injuries and deaths would decrease dramatically.

In short, it’s republican bloodthirst at work. Nothing more or less.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ POM

I’m pretty sure the body count would have been higher if they’d had guns instead of knives.

Exactly, and it’s also going to be much harder to fend off an attacker with bottles, chairs, and rugby tackles (as appears to have happened last night).

I think what’s particularly distasteful is Trump is exploiting last night for his own domestic policy agenda. He doesn’t actually give a fuck about British people. Arming the populace isn’t even a consideration here. We don’t even think about that. So he’s just cashing in on a tragedy in the most vulgar way; whilst completely dismissing anything the actual victims or people actually affected might feel about that.

ETA: it’s also a variation on the “Europeans bring this on themselves” argument, like with our immigration policies. Dog whistle victim blaming as well as exploitation of a tragedy.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

So he’s just cashing in on a tragedy in the most vulgar way; whilst completely dismissing anything the actual victims or people actually affected might feel about that.

So….day to day operations for him? It sucks that he’s doing this, and the UK deserves better. Ugh. I don’t even know what to say right now.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

I think what’s particularly distasteful is Trump is exploiting last night for his own domestic policy agenda. He doesn’t actually give a fuck about British people.

Outside his tiny brain, nothing is real to him. He perceives everything through a filter of ME ME ME and I doubt he thinks of other people as being really people, but rather as props in his personal story. Giving a fuck about British people would require him to give a fuck about people generally, and he doesn’t.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@John
To my knowledge, only one person has ever seriously claimed to be transracial. She was the center of some controversy in a town near me when it was discovered that she was actually white and had been lying about her race. She was the president of that town’s NAACP chapter at the time.

Here’s an interview with her: http://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/04/19/25082450/the-heart-of-whiteness-ijeoma-oluo-interviews-rachel-dolezal-the-white-woman-who-identifies-as-black

numerobis
numerobis
3 years ago

Transracial went bigly with a recent Hypatia article that amounted to JAQing off about transgender versus transracial, and how can we tell these two concepts apart, they must be the same … while ignoring any prior literature on the subject.

The usual suspects (Dawkins et al) came to the defense of the poor put-upon assistant prof who wrote the shitty article, and lay it on thick with allusions of impropriety from the people who condemned the article and the editorial process that accepted it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

Meanwhile, over on /r/MGTOW/ a guy posted about how great masturbation is and how superior it is to women, and he has 3 whole comments, one of which is “WTF.”

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Anyways, while I’d never heard of “transracial” before (some of you sound like you have, is it some talking point I’ve somehow missed ?) the whole thing sounded really fucking familiar.

Short version, it started with a really gross strawman that South Park made up and transphobes have been parroting ever since. In the episode, Mr Garrison transitions into a woman (because being gay and being trans are exactly the same), Kyle “Transitions” into a black basketball player (exactly the same!) and Kyle’s father “Transitions” into a fucking dolphin (exactly the saaame!!!11), then all three “Admit” that trans don’t real and trans people are just [string of transphobic and ableist slurs including copious use of the word “Mutilated”]. And this is all supposed to be hilarious for some reason.

Feel free to puke now.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ POM

I doubt he thinks of other people as being really people, but rather as props in his personal story.

I think you’re spot on there. It’s like the antithesis of “treat people as ends not means”. I got that same vibe when he claimed the Kathy Griffin thing had upset Bannon. It just didn’t feel like genuine concern. You’ve articulated what I thought was ‘off’. It was that he was just using a kid as a prop.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Policy of Madness

So, a man actually does go his own way, and the MGTOW subreddit cares nothing for it. Hypocrites.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

@IgnoreSandra

Exactly. Of course, his post is full of gendered slurs and stereotypes, but at least he’s actually trying to GHOW.

Valentine
Valentine
3 years ago

@lysisrata

Yay! Thank you so much ))) i am very sorry you didnt get to speak Ukrainian before now. But if it help, i am also not very good – my family russian 😁 little bit political now about this but what can i do? I dont know if i will share my writings ever but thank you for your words! I think you should teach yourself speak ukrainian. No one can stop you now!

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Policy of Madness

Yeah. At this point, I don’t seriously think anyone currently involved with MGTOW will stop being a misogynist.

But here’s the thing: I don’t care if they cry into their beer with their other misogynist asswipe friends in someone’s crummy living room. That doesn’t bother me.

What bothers me is when misogynists have enough power to influence in any way my life or the lives of other women. Men wanting to grope me is their problem, men being able to grope me is my problem.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

@ IgnoreSandra

What bothers me is when misogynists have enough power to influence in any way my life or the lives of other women. Men wanting to grope me is their problem, men being able to grope me is my problem.

Those are two sides of the same coin, though. If every misogynist dude kept it to himself, he would think he is alone in the world and fear social sanction for acting on his misogyny. When they get together in an echo chamber where there are several hundred misogynists, all of whom are being totally open about their misogyny, the individual misogynists get the idea that everyone agrees with them, stop fearing social sanction, and start acting on their ideas.

Nobody can stop a misogynist from being a misogynist, but we can stop them from thinking it’s A-OK and that all other men have the same opinions. This is way harder when they use their forums to reinforce one another, so I think it’s valid to be concerned about /r/MGTOW and others.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Policy of Madness

Ah, yes, it is. Large scale organization creates the illusion of the behavior being acceptable, which directly leads to their misogyny becoming my problem.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

@SFHC

That’s the episode that made me quit South Park.

Valentine
Valentine
3 years ago

Opposablethumbs

Thank you ))) but honestly, few years ago i would not have said like this. Sad but it sometime take similar experience to make understanding of what people need and not need. Few years ago i would have been just like you say and try to give some bullshit instead of correct treatment.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

@IP

Ditto. I only remember that nasty shit so well because it burned itself into my brain like a slow-motion car crash.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@SFHC
Uggghhh. That show is so fucking awful.

BTW, does anyone else keep getting Human by The Killers in their head because of the title of this post? “Are we human or are we dancer?”

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

@Alan

At first, I thought that put you in the Channel, so I was “cool, an actual mermaid!”. But after a quick recalculation I’m guessing Brighton

Got it in one! I would make a terrible mermaid. I didn’t learn to swim until I was 12, can’t jump in and hate getting water up my nose and in my ears. Also I don’t have a tail. But I do live in the People’s Republic of Brighton & Hove (Caroline Lucas for the win!).

I lived in London for 7 years (including during 7/7), used to work in Westminster, my sister works in the Shard (by London Bridge) and Borough Market is one of my dad & stepmum’s favourite places to be, so I’m feeling very grateful they all had early nights yesterday.

Mammotheers eligible to vote on Thursday, keep love and hope directing your vote, rather than hate and fear.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ weatherwax

I have very fond memories of Brighton. I used to go to Hove Crown Court a lot. After I’d finished I had a routine of walking back to Brighton along the beach. I’d have an interim hotdog at the half way stand, then a cone of ridiculously salty and vinegary chips on the pier before going to see the Dalek. Then I’d stroll up to the station via that amazing chocolate shop. Ah, miss that a bit.

I too did 15 years in London, very happy associations, and I still go back a lot to see friends (yey) and for work (less yey), so I still feel a strong connection with the stinky old place. Funnily enough the bombings never bothered me, and I was close enough to hear them go off a few times; I was also on the tube in front of one that blew up. That’s not some spirit of the blitz stoicism, more ‘what are the odds?’ denialism maybe. Strangely though that seems to be common. Been chatting to my friends still up there about last night obviously, but they’re very much the same. Weirdly it’s the Manchester attack that’s got to everyone. I think it’s because of the particularly cruel nature of the targeting.

Buffalo Headroom (it doesn't have to make sense)

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

Even as someone who likes watching South Park that episode so cringe now. Surprises me that they managed to be somewhat respectful about the transgender bathroom issue years later.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Just when you think Trump can’t sink any lower, he’s now using last night’s attack to run the ‘if you have gun control they’ll only use knives’ argument.

Anytime I see someone trot out this particular piece of stupidity, I want to make them read about the Lincoln County War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_County_War

Essentially everybody had guns in that one, and the result was a bunch of dead people.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Thanks for the explanation, all.

Feel free to puke now.

Please hold my hair ._.

Okay I knew there was a lot of wrong with South Park, but that’s above and fucking beyond.

I’d heard about Rachel Dolezal too, though I wasn’t aware she’d gone as far as use a word like “transracial”.

Though now I am pretty sure that Chessman = Mick Dash. Same weird need to claim some imaginary oppression and then equate it with an actual one and/or blame it on us. Same incredibly tedious way with words, too.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

@Ellesar – I am so so sorry. Please be safe and be well.

@Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major

I love how everyone always forgets about transguys.

I literally just told you I know more trans men than trans women. Unless that’s what made you think of it?

@Ignore Sandra

My joke was essentially a joke about trans women (or any group) bragging about how great they are as a group at some particular sexual act (in this instance blowjobs). Like it’s a team or something? “Go, Blowing Cis Women!” or whatever. Yeah they can’t all be gems!

Also:

That said, trans men don’t have to worry about being beaten in the street.

Really have to beg to differ here. SUPER have to beg to differ. Trans men not only worry about (and are) beaten in the streets, but are also sometimes “treated” to rape. So, y’know. Definitely no need for the Oppression Olympics on this.

Valentine
Valentine
3 years ago

Also:

That said, trans men don’t have to worry about being beaten in the street.

Really have to beg to differ here. SUPER have to beg to differ. Trans men not only worry about (and are) beaten in the streets, but are also sometimes “treated” to rape. So, y’know. Definitely no need for the Oppression Olympics on this.

Yes I also have to agree with dreemr. My cousin is Non-binary and but born female and he afraid often – from physical and from words of others. He living in London too. If someone, even friend, shouts his name he become afraid because for him shouting usually agressive and someone who want to harm him.

Aulma Frendzar Dèdd
Aulma Frendzar Dèdd
3 years ago

@IgnoreSandra @Policy

What bothers me is when misogynists have enough power to influence in any way my life or the lives of other women. Men wanting to grope me is their problem, men being able to grope me is my problem.

This is way harder when they use their forums to reinforce one another, so I think it’s valid to be concerned about /r/MGTOW and others.

Exactly. When big groups of misogynists organize and pat eachother on the back that’s when the most hateful ideas come through. And the MGTOW Reddit and forum aren’t even the most dangerous ones. The RP reddit, forums, websites and twitter accounts are the most damaging. That’s where most of the hate comes from and it spreads all over the internet. RP guys like Fisher who ended up in politics are more troubling than a few Mgtows talking shit at the bar.

PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Timber-Rattling Booger Slut, But Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Personal anecdote time: I personally know two were raped after they transitioned to male.

It isn’t trans people doing the assualting.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@dreemr

Trans men not only worry about (and are) beaten in the streets, but are also sometimes “treated” to rape. So, y’know. Definitely no need for the Oppression Olympics on this

Yep. Transmasc friend of mine is constantly being harangued, followed, or swung at by random dudes, cos he ‘looks like one of them gays’ or some such bullshit. In the middle of a big, libruhl city and everything…

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Everybody

I was wrong, then. I’ll do better in the future.

Victoria
Victoria
3 years ago

@IgnoreSandra

Actually, non-passing trans men do fear violence in the street. Men get really, really angry when someone they perceive to be a woman isn’t attractive to them. Butch women face the same problem. I’m kind of upset you’re trying to claim they don’t.

Victoria
Victoria
3 years ago

Afab people who don’t present in a normative way are often viewed as threatening to the cis men. I myself, as a butch person, have been nervous about some guy being like “Well, if you want to look like a man, you have to walk the walk! I’m gonna beat you up, since you wanna be so masculine!”

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Victoria

I was wrong to say what I said. I clearly don’t understand the experiences of cis women and trans men well at all, and I should have remembered that in the moment. I’m sorry, and I won’t do the same going forward.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Victoria,

IgnoreSandra apologized already. No need to continue to pile on.

Victoria
Victoria
3 years ago

@Weirwoodtreehugger

Sorry, I think I commented before the other comments got added?

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
3 years ago

One thing I find curious (a word which, as used here, means ‘utterly revolting’) is how the two groups of people who are most visibly hostile to trans women are
a) lesbians who insist that trans women are straight men who want to have sex with them, and
b) straight men who insist that they are gay men who want to have sex with them.

I’m unsympathetic to both points of view.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

@Robert Walker-Smith

Don’t you know? Being a trans woman is nothing more or less than a sexual fetish, because it’s impossible to be feminine without being sexual. So obviously trans women are just men being sexual in a bizarre way.

/sarcasm

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
3 years ago

@Fran: Your reply to me was fascinating– I’m glad I suspected there were myriad aspects I didn’t know about the various trans subcommunities and protocols of bitchiness.

@Valentine: You are absolutely correct in the way you would console a scared friend– my suggestion was just a vague, improvised idea, and I fully admit it would not have much effectiveness if used on its own. Your idea was vastly better.

As an aside to all of the trans discussions, I keep thinking how wonderful it would be if SCP-113 were widely available. The other SCP that only works one way…it should probably still be kept under wraps for its side effects, though.

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
3 years ago

Re: South Park – Matt and Trey kinda-sorta redeemed themselves with an episode from 2015, “The Cissy,” which ends with the elementary school principal saying:

Anyone who has a problem sharing a bathroom with people who might be transgender will have to use the special designated bathroom designed to keep them away from the normal people who don’t care.

The B plot is about Randy’s secret identity as Lorde, the female pop singer.

But they’ve never been all that sensitive and will probably continue to be insensitive in a lot of ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cissy