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Vox Day declares Nazism “semiotically useful,” specifies which kind of Jew is ok to him

Theodore Beale: The finest flower of Western Civilzation?
Theodore Beale: The finest flower of Western Civilization?

Racism can be so confusing!

Consider the case of everyone’s favorite racist dickhead fantasy author, Theodore “Vox Day” Beale. Ever since he discovered, two years ago, that his DNA contained enough Native American blood “to qualify for membership in most Indian tribes,” Beale has been using these DNA results to do a sort of end-run around accusations of racism.

How can he be a racist, much less a white supremacist, if he’s technically a “Person of Color,”  specifically “a real Indian, complete with tribe, reservation, casino, and language” (that he of course does not speak). It’s a “gotcha” he loves to pull out every time someone points to any of the incredibly racist things he’s said over the years.

Now this little rhetorical gambit of his is starting to backfire. Turns out Beale’s identification of himself as a “Native American” isn’t exactly endearing him to the hardcore white supremacists of the Alt Right.

And so Beale, who very much wants to be not only a member but a big name in the Alt-Right club, has decided to invent a whole new category of Alt Right for people like him. Or perhaps just him.

In a blog post today, Beale divides the Alt Right into three groups: The Alt-White, the Alt-Lite, and the Alt-West. The Alt-White consists of the unrepentantly white supremacist Daily Stormer crowd. The Alt-Lite is made up of Pepe-posting anime Nazis who, in his mind, don’t really count as serious Alt-Rightists at all.

And then there is the Alt-West, which consists, as far as I can tell, of no one but Beale himself.

Beale tries to explain the details of this particular sorting system, but his efforts really only serve to muddy things further.

Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is pan-racial and pan-national, which should not be confused with being multicultural or equalitarian or pro-diversity in the egalitarian sense.

Beale is the only “pan-racialist” I’ve ever run across who not only rails against white women dating black men, but who actually went so far as to mock a “coal burning” white woman who was recently murdered by her black boyfriend. Beale’s take? “Burn de coal, pay de toll.”

Alt-White is primarily concerned with white nationalism, and secondarily concerned with European nationalisms. … While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern, as it supports all nationalism, European or otherwise.

Distinction without a difference.

Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Christianity. Alt-West is strongly pro-Christian, as it believes Christianity to be one of the three pillars of Western Civilization aka the historical Christendom.

But don’t worry, aspiring Alt-Westerners! You don’t actually have to do more than pay a vague lip-service to the idea of Christianity!

Pro-Christian includes, but does not require, actually being a Christian.

And then comes what the Nazi types like to call the Jewish Question.

Alt-White is hostile to very hostile to all Jews everywhere. Alt-West is friendly to Israeli Jews while hostile to globalist Jews and anti-nationalist Jews.

So Beale is fine with Jews just so long as they don’t live in his neighborhood. Or his country. Or indeed any country other than Israel.

But perhaps the most revealing bit is Beale’s take on literal Hitler and the literal Nazis.

Alt-White has a romantic view of National Socialism. Alt-West regards it as a suicidally stupid but semiotically useful form of German nationalism.

Er, what?

So Beale’s main criticism of the Nazis is that … they were kind of stupid for invading Russia and dooming themselves to defeat? But, hey, they had the coolest logo?

Aside from these little differences, Beale assures any Alt-Whities reading his post that

Alt-White and Alt-West are largely in accord. … [W]ith the possible exception of Christianity in the long term, there is very little reason for conflict between Alt-White and Alt-West … .

Also, white people are totally awesome!

There are much bigger battles ahead than settling the question of whether Christianity is a necessary component of Western Civilization or not. Because we know the white race is absolutely a necessary component of it, and that is why, whether one is inclined towards the Alt-White or the Alt-West, every member of the Alt-Right who values both whites and the West has immediate and mid-range objectives remain exactly the same.

Mighty white of you, Ted. Mighty white of you.

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Tosca
Tosca
4 years ago

I’m reminded of the infamous Craig Cobb interview. I could listen to that lady laugh all day…

calmdown
calmdown
4 years ago

Something like Right-Edge or XTRAlt.

Nuka-Cola Bigotry
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Hu's On First
Hu's On First
4 years ago

Yeah, I love how these guys don’t like Tumblr identity labels, yet go on to coin even more outlandish ones for themselves.

Another, even more egregious example: look up Matthew Heimbach. Heimbach is a proponent of “Identitarian Christianity”, which means he believes a person’s ethnicity should be inseparable from his religion. Thus he frowns on religions that primarily grow via conversion, in favor of those in which affiliation is inherited from one’s parents and/or dictated by the state.

There’s only one problem: Heimbach is himself a convert (to Eastern Orthodoxy, which he claims agrees with his racial views, although it doesn’t). Not only that, he belongs to an ethnicity that wasn’t historically Orthodox (unless, perhaps, you go back before 1054. However there were some Northern European peoples who remained pagan even after that).

How does he rationalize this obvious double standard? Easy; he created a new ethnicity (“Avalonian”) and identifies with THAT. An “Avalonian”, according to him, is an Eastern Orthodox of North-Western European racial background who agrees with his “identitarian” views. He has plans to eventually start a Kingdom of Avalon (complete with knights and its own Avalonian Orthodox Church) on some part of the current territory of the US. No word on if he’s a Roxy Music fan or not.

And people thought the Rachel Dolezal thing was bizarre! Heimbach might not be okay with gay or transgender people, but he’s certainly okay with being trans-Avalonian.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
4 years ago

@Hu’s on first
So he’s claiming that he’s trans ethnic?

Bina
4 years ago

Alt-West is pan-racial and pan-national, which should not be confused with being multicultural or equalitarian or pro-diversity in the egalitarian sense.

HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS BULLSHIT EVEN WORK???

And on a related note, I’m struck once more by the ironic hilarity of those who claim to be a “master race” being so ugly and stupid.

Nequam
Nequam
4 years ago

Gives me an excuse to post this again:

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weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

White supremacy

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Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
4 years ago

Yeah, white man, who is this ‘Morans’ you speak of? *facepalm*

Bina
4 years ago

Also, re: the presumptive indigenous heritage, I just came up with a little poem:

No matter what his bloody quantum,
I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t want ‘im.

I mean, could anybody be LESS desirable than he? In any sense of the word?

History Nerd
History Nerd
4 years ago

Some Native American tribes have somewhat lenient criteria for membership in terms of DNA. But that’s intended to accommodate people who culturally identify as Native American even if they could easily pass as white. Tribal membership usually involves identifying with a tribe’s goals. There’s been some controversy surrounding people who identify as Native American without proof of ancestry (e.g., Ward Churchill).

In Vox’s case, he passes as white except when it’s convenient for him and he doesn’t seem interested in serving a tribal community. Maybe it’s true he can’t be racist if you’re letting literal Nazis decide who counts as a “racist.”

Ray of Rays
Ray of Rays
4 years ago

He has plans to eventually start a Kingdom of Avalon (complete with knights and its own Avalonian Orthodox Church) on some part of the current territory of the US.

At which point Arthur would wake up and smack him around the continent like an uppity Saxon.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@WWTH
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Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
4 years ago

Hi, resident Israeli Jew here, and I would like to say to Beale: “Go fuck yourself with a pitchfork[*]; I have no use for your so-called friendliness, you horrible racist turd”.

(Didn’t read through the rest of the thread here, because I was upset enough to just want to post the above, so this might have been said elsewhere – but I suspect him being okay with Israel is not just about having Jews away from him, but also because the current Israel is fairly right-wing, and is seen as a force to fight Islam, both literally by fighting the Palestinians and on a diplomatic scale by speaking against it. That’s why there are a bunch of racist, nationalist, sometimes actually neo-Nazi folks who come here to buddy-buddy with Israeli right-wing groups/parties. Said right-wing folks like them because they’re anti-Islam, and Nazi tendencies be damned. Jorg Haider is a name that springs to mind, but he’s far from the only one.)

[*] What? He doesn’t have to use the pointy end. It just sounds better like this, for some reason.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

@WWTH & Axe

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Diptych
Diptych
4 years ago

Yes, but patriotic is the last refug of a scrandel! Or is it the last refuse of a scandal? The past centrifuge of a sandal? In any case, I know it’s true, ’cause Samuel L. Jackson wrote it in his dictionary.

Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

@Penny Psmith

If I may speculate, I think that the Alt-Right sees in Israel an object lesson in how to revive a once-neglected nationalist sentiment, to build up strong institutions (chief among them being, without question, the IDF) to protect said nation from its enemies and detractors, and in how to persuade (diplomatically or otherwise) the greater international community of, if not the rightness of the enterprise, then at least of the fact that it is a non-negotiable matter.

Basically, they admire Israel for demonstrating that it is possible to reach their ideal end-game; a world in which “their people” have a secure homeland to can call their own, where they can speak their own language, and practice their beliefs without having to bow to anyone else. To be able to punch well beyond their weight class in international affairs, and to have a region-leading military to back itself up with.

Sure, the USA is already a superpower, but (if I read the Alt-Right correctly) it is not as ideologically pure as they see Israel to be; the US is too quick to compromise, to equivocation on their morals, and to allow “foreign” influences to dilute their essential national character. This, in their minds, can only lead to degeneration and annihilation.

Of course, the fact that Islam is regarded as a common enemy is also a useful thing, as is the fact that both of them trace their intellectual pedigree to a Western(-ish) root; I hardly see them lavish such unqualified praise on the People’s Republic of China, for instance.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
4 years ago

…Perhaps? That’s a lot of speculation about a lot of stuff I know little about.

But it seems (might be a cognitive bias) that pro-Israel sentiment among European nationalists is relatively new, and strongly linked to anti-Islam sentiment. That’s why I see it as the main reason.

reimalebario
reimalebario
4 years ago

Normally, upon seeing that quality of writing, I’d say “don’t quit your day job” but apparently writing is somehow his day job?

brian
brian
4 years ago

wait wait wait wait…
white supremacists hate christianity?
is that a real thing?

Dalillama
4 years ago

@ brian
Only a few Odinists, really. As far as I know, anyway

occasional reader
occasional reader
4 years ago

Hello.

Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Christianity

You means the one who spits on Islam, Judaïsm and almost any other possible descent religion ? I am sadly sure they would still like to burn people on cross if they were allowed to, so…

> Penny Psmith

But it seems (might be a cognitive bias) that pro-Israel sentiment among European nationalists is relatively new, and strongly linked to anti-Islam sentiment.

It is even worse than that, i fear. The French far-right is known to have weaved links with a lot of far-right all across the world, including the Israel one. I think the surface thought is : “I know you want your people in your country, which is mean not in mine, and i am fine with that !”. And the deep though is : “And i hope you will exterminate yourself with your neighbor, urh urh !”
We are speaking of people who do not like or love anything which is not themselves, so do not put a lot of hope on their behavior.

Have a nice day.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
4 years ago

“Indian ancestry” ha ha.

My family had a legend that we were descendants of the Cherokee. Lots of other families do too.

What this is often (concealed) code for is African (slave) ancestry.

There was a time when Indians/Native Americans were shat upon, but shat upon a bit less than people of African ancestry. There’s a passage in Frederick Douglass’s autobiography where he’s on a ship and people of color have stay on deck and not below. It’s stormy and wet and one of the crew says that people who are Indian can go below in the dry and most of the black passengers say “I’m Indian” but Douglass doesn’t even though he’s sort of asked “Are you sure you aren’t Indian?”

So anyway, my dad actually believes he has Cherokee ancestry until he takes the genetic test. Turns out some of our ancestors decided it was a bit easier to be part Indian (absolutely no blame, when it comes to your children’s life chances you do what you have to do).

I don’t know about Beale’s DNA profile, but I ain’t getting free chips* at the casino in North Carolina any time soon. I also know that while I’m proud that my ancestry encompasses a broad range of the American story, I’m white for all intents and purposes because that’s what I look like and that’s how I was raised and am seen (except for white supremacist intents and purposes, I guess).

_____
*I don’t think that’s how it actually works.

Sarah
Sarah
4 years ago

Betcha that guy with the “descent is the highest form of patriotism” is one of the butthurt “patriots” screeching about Colin Kaepernick.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
4 years ago

Should someone write that tribe and let them know this creepy asshole is claiming to be a member? They might want to respond to that claim.

Looks like he’s not applying for membership, or telling what the “relevant tribe” is. I can imagine two possible reasons for this:

1) He’s not culturally Native, and doesn’t want to be, because it’s all meaningless to him. Therefore it doesn’t occur to him that people might pay attention to tribal specifications. He’s just using his racial background to deflect racism accusations.

2) His claim is made up or exaggerated.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@WWTH, Axe, and SFHC

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ buttercup

Maybe he just has really strong feelings about OJ Simpson?

calmdown
calmdown
4 years ago

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EJ (The Orphic Lizard)

Based on some “Oh, you’re a white South African” comments I’ve had from alt-righters, I have a sneaking suspicion that what they admire the most about Israel has to do with apartheid.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@Alan Or he’s an unhappy former client of Mike Cernovich.

I just noticed the word “(Zionist)” in teeny, tiny letters above “Juice”. Perhaps he’s protesting the establishment of a citrus homeland in Florida?

Moggie
Moggie
4 years ago

Poor Voxman. Still yearning to be recognised as a big deal and a sooper-genius, destined forever to fall short.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ buttercup

Being playing around for a suitable response and the best I could come up with was a terrible pun about ‘citric Hasid’. And there are hardly any fruit based rhymes for Balfour Declaration!

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
4 years ago

Again, it seems that first and foremost the connections are anti-Islam. At least from what I’ve seen so far. Oh, and also anti-leftists appears to be a common denominator.

The apartheid thing is a bit more complicated, in Israel. From my (very limited, I admit) point of view, I’d say that the situation in the occupied territories is apartheid, or at least very similar to it, while inside Israel it tends to be more run-of-the-mill racism.
And you have the terrorism issue, which further complicates things (since many Israeli racists like to point out the prevalence of Hamas and other fundamentalist organizations as a justification for the apartheid in the OT, and since dealing with terrorist organisations like those in the countries around Israel can be difficult even in the best of circumstances, and I would not call our circumstances the best).

All in all, it’s a bit of a complex issue, and it’s one that tends to make me a bit wary. Even as left-wing bleedin’-heart wuss as I am, and even though I highly dislike and disagree with the current government’s policies, speaking about Israel with non-Israelies can make me uncomfortably defensive.
I think it’s just that it feels like the conversation goes to extremes very fast – either against Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims, or against Israel. Words like “atrocities” start getting thrown about, and I get, well, uncomfortable.
Or maybe it’s the sort of natural hypocricy we all tend to have when other people are speaking negatively about something we’re close to. :-/

I do realise that I was the one who brought this up to begin with, so please don’t take my discomfort as an obligation to not talk about this subject. Just explaining why I might get a bit awkward.

Virgin Mary
Virgin Mary
4 years ago

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Virgin Mary
Virgin Mary
4 years ago

Members of Pox’s Tea Bag tribe?!

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Ariblester
Ariblester
4 years ago

Regarding ‘(Zionist) juice’, I always find it perplexing that the word ‘Zionist’ is used to describe two diametrically-opposed supposed tendencies of Jews:

1) The supposed nationalist tendency of occupying land in the Middle East in order to create a permanent Jewish state (which is what the Arabs are protesting against)

2) The supposed tendency of Jews to adopt an internationalist stance, and in organizing a worldwide conspiracy to put the peoples of the Earth under an all-encompassing totalitarian regime (which is what the hard-right nutters are railing at)

Make up your minds, people! It can’t be the same group trying to create a nation-state for its people, and simultaneously trying to enslave the entire Earth, nationalist and internationalist in its designs.

The only commonality is that it involves the demonisation of people of the Jewish fait-

Oh. Ohhhhh.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@ Penny Psmith

It’s very close to home (literally) for you, isn’t it? I’m glad you posted that comment.
When I was a young ‘un and heavily involved with the local International Socialists and the like, any discussions about this issue were exactly as you describe. This was back when “Zionist” was taken to mean “Israeli supremacist”.
I still recall my fury when reading Naomi Wolf (I think it was Fire with Fire? Not sure which book now) writing about visiting a fellow Jewish friend and casually mentioning that her friend’s house was in a settlement in the occupied territories. It meant nothing to Wolf, except as backdrop.

And now I’m worried that I’m simply confirming your original comment! My point – if there was one – was that I once viewed this issue through a simplified lens where Israeli people were just backdrop (and not a positive one). I’ve since learned otherwise.
I do hope that makes sense of a kind. Thanks again; I always appreciate your comments 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ penny

I don’t want to ‘splain your own country’s situation to you but I’ve had some interesting chats about those issues with peeps from the IDF and the Mossad (nothing sinister, I just know their legal people). They have some views that might seem a bit unexpected.

I don’t want to derail the thread and discussions on this topic never end well anyway, but if you’re interested in what they said maybe just create a temporary ‘burner’ email and I can pass on the details?

(Or I’m just on Facebook. Stone circles, Sunsets, Sikhs and Spitfires)

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
4 years ago

@Mish – Thanks for the sympathy! And don’t worry, it’s fine. I got it.
There’s just a combination of factors here that tends to push hot buttons, so to speak (apologies for mixing metaphors) for a lot of different people: occupation, terrorism, Jews, Zionism, Islam, various flavours of racism, US foreign policy, etc. etc. So things can get heated fast. I do trust the commenterati here that it won’t get that bad… again, mostly trying to explain my own behaviour.

@Alan – If other people here are fine with tne derailment of the thread, go ahead! It sounds interesting, and like I said, I don’t think my awkwardness about this subject needs to be a reason for everyone else to drop it (also, see above).
I do know that a number of officers and ex-officers in IDF, Shin-Bet, Mossad etc. have been speaking publicly against current government policies, the occupation in general, and the current — umn, currents — of right-wing radicalisation and racism, here. It’s quite fascinating to see these things coming from people who are/were part of the system, and even more fascinating to see the right-wing responses to them (I remember one guy who wondered something like “what is it about the army that makes these people go all leftist?!” :-D).

ikanreed
ikanreed
4 years ago

The weird thing is the way he’s trying to declare the people who wouldn’t kill him for who his ancestors were his enemies.

They’re the dangerous ones. The ones he needs to rally the troops to stop.

numerobis
numerobis
4 years ago

Heimbach is himself a convert (to Eastern Orthodoxy, which he claims agrees with his racial views, although it doesn’t)

Aha! I was kind of wondering why my old racist misogynist homophobic theocratist shitbag colleague had converted to that religion in particular. I knew he switched away from Catholicism because Francis was insufficiently regressive, but I didn’t understand the appeal of the Greek Orthodox Church.

numerobis
numerobis
4 years ago

Alt-West is pan-racial and pan-national, which should not be confused with being multicultural or equalitarian or pro-diversity in the egalitarian sense.

I have seen this often — the argument is they just want separation between equals (but whites are of course far more equal than the rest, so we’re claiming all your territory. Here have a little corner of the desert.)

It’s not a new idea: Ethnic cleansing dates back to ancient times.

numerobis
numerobis
4 years ago

Arguably, ethnic cleansing isn’t even a human innovation — other apes do it too.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@Alan – It’s like finding a rhyme for orange. This is where speaking fluent Teabonics would probably help – no need for spelling or sense, just pick a person or institution you dislike, then cram in a random, unrelated grievance.

I’m pondering “Sykes-Apricot Agreement” and “Protocols of the Elderberries”, but that’s straying a little far from Zionist juice territory.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ penny

“what is it about the army that makes these people go all leftist?!” :-D)

Oh gawd, that is an entire subject in itself; but yeah, some of the most hippy people I know are ex IDF. You seen “Alpha Diaries”? That’s an intersting take on this too. One technique I did pick up from the IDF was that after a patrol with heavy backpacks they all stand in a circle and give each other a shoulder massage. Love that.

As to the original subject, I’ll keep it as a very brief executive summary of their views as relayed to me.

As for the IDF staff (i.e. the planners and policy makers), whatever their personal politics, from a purely pragmatic military point of view they hate the settlements. That’s because they consider that Israel’s biggest problem is a lack of ‘strategic depth’. If you’re defending against invading forces you want a big buffer zone where you can fight without worrying about damage to your own people. So if an invasion comes from the south you can have use tanks and air strikes against the enemy in the Sinai on an effective a blank canvas (rather than the Africa campaigns in WW2). However if an invasion comes from across the Jordan, you’ve only got a tiny strip of land before the enemy is in your own streets. However if you put settlements in that strip you’re now having to take into account the risk to your own population right from the start. You can’t just run tanks anywhere or use blanket air strikes. You have to fight around a load of out of bounds areas. Effectively you’ve lost what little strategic depth you had. It’s like if NATO didn’t have the Steppes to fight on and waited until the USSR was in the suburbs of West Germany. The IDF staff just sees the settlements as a planning headache.

The Mossad hates the IDF getting into battles in the territories and Gaza (and the politics causing that). All it does is inflame the situation and act as a recruiting tool for Hamas. More improperly though it’s a massive drain on resources better employeed elsewhere. Rocket attacks are obviously a big concern to the Israeli populous, but as far as The Mossad are concerned they don’t represent an existential threat (or even any threat at all statistically). But when Hamas are active, political and popular pressure means they have to divert all sorts of resources to dealing with that. As far as The Mossad are concerned though, the real existential threat comes from surrounding enemies on a state level. But every team tracking down some guy knocking out home made mortars is one less team they could have dealing with Iran or Syria etc. Also Palestinian discontent is exploited by these state actors. So nobody is more keen on coming to an accord with the Palestinians than the security services, just from a pragmatic view.

Like I say, that’s just the pragmatic view, not the politics. It may well be though that that is what feeds into the views you noted in your post.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ buttercup

I’m pondering “Sykes-Apricot Agreement” and “Protocols of the Elderberries”

You’re amazing; I can only gape in slack jawed awe.

ETA: Ooh, “British Mandarin-Orangedate”?

(Yup, got my coat)

skybison
skybison
4 years ago

@WWTH, Axe, SFHC, Buttercup, calmdown, Virgin Mary

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Nequam
Nequam
4 years ago

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Luxbelitx
4 years ago

ANTCHRIST!! I KNEW IT!!

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Luxbelitx
4 years ago

Ha! Very steadily ninja’d and outperformed by Nequam <3

Chaos-Engineer
Chaos-Engineer
4 years ago

Sigh, kids today…

We don’t need a new word to describe the “Alt-West”. What he’s describing is just the old Paleoconservative wing of the Republican Party.

It seems to be on the way out. As religion becomes less important in public life, the Paleoconservative and Religious-Right wings of the Republican Party have found themselves increasingly marginalized by the Neoconservative and Libertarian wings.

The new Alt-Right wing is basically a group of secular bigots with an isolationist foreign policy. It draws from Paleoconservatives and Libertarians who want to be part of a larger faction, so that they can oppose the dominant Neoconservatives.

Vox needs to start figuring this stuff out, unless he wants to be the world’s last Paleoconservative.