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"ethics" $MONEY$ a voice for men antifeminism evil SJWs harassment men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men paul elam red pill reddit

An Open Letter to Cassie Jaye, director of The Red Pill

Paul Elam: Subject of, and fundraiser for, Cassie Jaye's The Red Pill, in a shot from a preview of the film
Paul Elam: Subject of, and fundraiser for, Cassie Jaye’s The Red Pill, in a shot from a preview of the documentary

UPDATE 10/25/16: If you’ve come here after reading about a petition to cancel screenings of The Red Pill, I ask you to NOT sign any such petitions. It’s just free publicity for them. Read more of my thoughts on the matter here

Dear Cassie Jaye,

Congratulations. You surpassed your Kickstarter fundraising goal yesterday, more than two weeks before the Kickstarter campaign was scheduled to come to a close. You’ve funded the postproduction work on your long-delayed documentary on Men’s Rights activists, and then some.

But I’m not sure that the person I should be congratulating is you. Last night Paul Elam of A Voice for Men – the central subject of your film – was doing his own victory lap online. And no wonder, because he seems to be the real victor here.

In a post on his site that managed to be giddy and vindictive at once, he offered his congratulations to you, then, well, to himself. “Even though the victory goes to Ms. Jaye,” he wrote, in an awkward attempt at modesty, “I have the need to offer up some thanks.”

And then he spelled out why he thinks your “victory” is really a victory for him.

For the past six years AVFM has had mud kicked in its face by a corrupt, left-wing media. Bottom feeders like Adam Serwer, Jeff Sharlet and Mariah Blake have performed endless unscrupulous acts, directly lying to their readers in order to attack AVFM, this movement and me personally.

Their work was not just to harm me, or to damage a website but to make sure if they could that the message we carry never found its way to the larger public. Their intent was and is to paint an indelible stain on all of us so hideous that we would never be taken seriously by enough people to matter.

They have failed, and I can now predict that they have failed miserably.

In other words, Paul Elam thinks he and his friends in what he ludicrously calls the “Men’s Human Rights Movement” have bought and paid for a feature-length advertisement for them.

And it’s not hard to see why Elam – and the other manospherians who’ve rallied around your film in recent days — think this. After all, they are the ones who have rescued your film from oblivion by pouring tens of thousands of dollars into your Kickstarter.

And all it took for you to unleash this torrent of money was an interview with one of the sleaziest figures in right-wing journalism, Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart.

In the interview, posted on Monday, you complained that “I won’t be getting support from feminists. They want a hit piece and I won’t do that.”

There was more than a little bit of irony in the fact that you were saying this to a man infamous for his many hit pieces on so-called “Social Justice Warriors.”

You also complained about an intern on your film who, you said, “had a lot of crying attacks and emotional experiences. She claimed everything I was showing her was triggering her.”

A young feminist “triggered” and crying. This is red meat to the Breitbart crowd, and I have to assume you knew this when you told Milo this story.

To an outside observer like me, this shameful pandering looks a lot like a Hail Mary play on your part. Having failed to convince most potential funders of the film that you would present anything close to an accurate picture of the Men’s Rights movement, you told Breitbart what its readers – and the broader manosphere – wanted to hear.

And it worked. Men’s Rights activists, self-professed “Red Pillers” and other assorted antifeminists rallied around your film, and the money started flowing.

On Reddit, the moderators of the Men’s Rights subreddit “stickied” an appeal to donate to your Kickstarter to the top of their front page, urging MRAs to open their wallets in order to show skeptics that “we can take part in some actual activism and not just post stuff in here.”

Even the regulars in the violently misogynistic Red Pill subreddit agreed to help bankroll your film.

And it wasn’t just Men’s Rights and “Red Pill” Redditors who organized support for your film. One right-wing Red Pill blogger, notorious for his harassment of ideological enemies, pledged to match donations up to $10,000, describing your documentary as “the Movie SJWs Do Not Want You to See.”

Meanwhile, on her blog, AVFM’s “social media director” Andrea Hardie (an internet bully better known under her pseudonyms Janet Bloomfield and “Judgy Bitch”) not only rallied her readers around your Kickstarter but also set up a gofundme of her own, raising money in hopes that it would buy Breitbart’s Yiannopoulos a producer credit in your film. (I hope that is out of the question, even if she raises more than the paltry amount she’s raised for this purpose so far.)

And then there was Elam himself, on Twitter, calling on his followers to, in his words, “Help fund #RedPillMovie because fuck feminists!”

https://twitter.com/AVoiceForMen/status/658700057311506432

Accepting money from these people would seem to be a pretty clear violation of the principles you set forth in your own Kickstarter video, in which you declared that

in order to keep this film non-partisan, and respectfully show all sides to this debate, we won’t accept funding from organizations that inevitably have biased agendas.

Instead, you have chosen to take money from people who see your film as a chance to say “fuck you” to feminists. You have chosen to take money from the actual subjects of your film.

You are making a film about Men’s Rights Activists, funded to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars by Men’s Rights Activists. You are making a film about A Voice for Men funded in part by A Voice for Men.

Does that not trouble you at all? It should. In your interview with Breitbart, you noted that “films that support one side and act as propaganda do better than those that try to have an honest look.”

You said this, presumably, to set yourself apart from such propagandists. Now you seem to have cast your lot in with them.

Which I suppose makes sense, since the clips of your film that you’ve posted online so far look a lot more like propaganda than they do like any sort of honest look at the Men’s Rights movement,

I felt uneasy about your project from the start, concerned that you had been pulled in by the soothing but misleading rhetoric that MRAs spout when they are trying to sound more respectable than they really are, rather than on what MRAs actually say and do when the cameras are off of them.

But I knew you had a good reputation as a filmmaker, and heard good things from several feminists who knew you better than I did. So I held my tongue and tried my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, even when you posted clips from your film that portrayed AVFMers as heroic underdogs rather than the misogynists and malicious harassers that they really are.

When I wrote you a little over a week ago with some of my concerns, you assured me in the phone call that followed that the clips you had posted were only part of the story, that you were well aware that the MRAs you had interviewed were on their best behavior when talking to you, and that the real story of the Men’s Rights movement is far less rosy-hued. Against my better judgement, I continued to hold on to some kind of hope that you would live up to your reputation in the end.

And now, frankly, I feel like I’ve been played.

Unfortunately, it looks like you have been played too, much more spectacularly than I have. I suspect you are doing far more damage to your reputation than you even know.

One thing I have learned in five years of watching, and writing about, and dealing with, the Men’s Rights movement, is that if Paul Elam is happy about something, that thing is almost certainly terrible.

I suspect, sadly, that you will ultimately learn this lesson yourself, the hard way.

PS: In our phone conversation, you suggested that if you were able to fund your film, you might be able to finally film the interview with me that we originally had planned to do, but which fell through due to financial and other practical obstacles during the original filming of The Red Pill. At this point, I am sorry to say, that is completely out of the question.

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Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
3 years ago

@Rhuu

This whole “you’ll make more friends with honey than by telling them that they are perpetuating dangerous ideas that get people killed” is bullshit, and you should frankly understand that by now since SO. MANY. PEOPLE. Have explained.

Also people who would only consider treating marginalized people like human beings if those marginalized people kiss their asses all the time aren’t friends. If you can’t support every member of a community, even the ones who were “mean” to you or who you personally dislike, you don’t support that community.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

@Viscaria: Fair weather allies are awful, I totally agree.

@John: Come to the page to reply. Like the rest of us! This has been said before, in this thread.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

As for the Red Pill. Some are nutty extremists (I can think of another site where that also applies) but not all. I’ve never defended the nasty fanatics, has Cassie ever?

Read the comments policy please. Misogynists aren’t “nutty” they are assholes.

Name a non-misogynist manosphere figure. No one has been able to do it yet, but since you’re oh-so full of integrity, surely you are able to discern which MRAs or red pillers are misogynist and which ones merely concerned with men’s issues.

Yes Cassie has defended the nasty fanatics. Paul Elam and Matt Forney. Paul Elam is responsible for declaring “bash a violent bitch month” He attempted to start a site called Register Her which had the goal of doxxing women he doesn’t like. He said that if he were on a jury in a rape trial that he would vote not guilty no matter what. Even if he knew the defendant was guilty. He said some women are not just asking to be raped, they are begging for it.

Matt Forney is a racist who said that domestic violence is sometimes necessary because otherwise women will act no better than chimps.

You are free to search the site under the Elam or Forney tags. What I mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg. People on this site know the manosphere figures very well. If you hope to sell them as not misogynistic, you will fail miserably. If you plead ignorance, you will show that you had no business defending this film in the first place.

I’m pretty sure we went over this when you and Jerry first made your appearances in this thread. What a shock that you didn’t actually read or engage with it.

So I’ll say it again.

You are defending these people.

Own it.

You are not going to ever claim any kind of progressive cred as long as you continue to defend these people.

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
3 years ago

There’s something about the way he explains the US civil rights movement and the global gay rights movement(s) that is just… It’s like he knows that there are women here, because gender is a subject of the blog, but he thinks all of us must be white and straight and cis because those are just defaults for him. “Hey, fellow ~~~normal people~~~, let me tell you all about teh gays and how they did things!”

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Some thoughts about the confrontations from yesterday and today.

I think that a strategy I employ can be called “the inconvenient question”. Right now I’m thinking about how I sense vulnerability.

Earlier in the thread I did a thing where I mocked their opinions about misogyny by tiptoeing around the definition and ending with the letter M. That’s an application of the childhood “I’m not touching you” game. Invasion of social space. I often find games at the heart of social conflict behavior.

My favorite is the person who said they were confused started attaching an ablist slur I my mental abilities, followed by asking if anyone else thought they saw the replacement for a quote. I noted that they needed help, and believe they were calling for help.

SinisterPigeon: Sombrero Golem
SinisterPigeon: Sombrero Golem
3 years ago

I am going to keep on the Bernie question out of a vain hope that John will actually defend a position he takes. He has taken so many in the course of this journey that he should write a sex guide. (No please. Don’t though.)

So, lets take you to Nov 2016. Lets put you In Florida cause I know Florida. These are your 5 options.

Hillary Clinton- Democrat
Donald Trump- Republican
Jill Stein- Green
Gary Johnson- Libertarian
Or write In.

Which do you chose and do you understand the full implications of which of those choices you made under the US political system which is surprisingly different from any European system.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Don’t forget UK as another default of his. “What do you mean not every country’s government is like the UK’s?”

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Never seen any of the Saw movies. I’ve heard they are slasher films, that’s not my kind of film.

I thought you objected to the portrayal of men in violent movies? How can you critique popular culture if you don’t engage with it?

Oh, and they aren’t slashers. The first couple were more psychological horror. Far less gory than people think they were. The later entries were the horror subgenre known as “torture porn” although I kind of hate that term.

Here are a couple of MLK quotes

“And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.”

I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government.”

Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn.

Name calling was not King’s style, but held radical views, was not shy about them, did not care if he offended white people and did not condemn anger from marginalized people.

Also, a popular chant in the US at least is

We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it.

Has a better ring to it than “please, good straight man, acknowledge my humanity. If it’s not too much trouble. Sorry to bother you!”

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

This has been said before, in this thread.

That would require John to read and engage with people like an adult, when he is clearly not one.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@Scildfrega
What you have sent me will let me, reconfigure? That feels right. It’s a social normalization thing. This TS thing has an structure. I think I get a “read access” advantage in terms of human behavior, but that is balanced by a “write access” advantage in my feeling of other people.

When it comes to feeling I am in the high end of the intensity range. A 7-10, and/or a -7–10. I want to call it higher average autonomic intensity, valence in journal articles. From there I am working on unpacking good summaries of how to think of kinds of emotions.

Thank you. This is a process and examples. That took some work. I will try to appreciate it better this time.

I have a bunch of mental heuristics that I use that remind me of parts of what you typed, I’ve gotten some by osmosis and culture, this will help me clean out the chaos. Is that something you might find intetesting? For example I try to think of everything as being a category contains a diversity.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Also that “write access” advantage is shared by all of you since I feel you project information. Now I have to wonder if that forgetting was instinctual.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

I’m getting pretty tired of new Jaye fanbois searching frantically for articles on her after seeing The Red Pill and necroing two year old posts written before that movie was even made.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Especially since their adoration seems to go only as far as them being pleased that a pretty young white woman is telling them what they want to hear. That it’s so hard to be a man these days.

Katie forbid they actually do any research on the red pill culture or the MRM and find out what they actually say.

It’d be one thing if they were ignorant about what the manosphere is like, asked why there is an objection to this documentary and then listen to our responses. They’d rather charge in and accuse us of being soooooo meeeeaaaannnn!!!! It never even crosses their minds that David and the regulars here might have actual substantive reasons for our issues.

That, or they know perfectly well how hateful the manosphere is and just don’t mind.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Well, WWTH, John Devalle admits to not really reading the posts/replies very closely (if at all), so it mystifies me what he’s even doing here, still.

He’s tried to spam his FB/story, (fail) and he’s written his open letter, even after telling us that the email didn’t work (after his first post specifically said he’d written to David) so it’s obvious he’s just wasting our time.

He really should buy a journal. This shit is tedious.

Jerry Donohue
Jerry Donohue
3 years ago

If you have to explain a metaphor its probably not worth it but here goes anyway……Galileo represents the powerless individual coming to conclusions through his own observations (like the google guy)….The Catholic church represents the intolerant, powerful group ideology who accept things on faith and are prepared to torture and kill to support their position (representing the feminists who will censor, sack, publically humiliate and block employment of people who don’t except their paradigms). To the ideological group its all about power, they don’t care whats true, they just want to be right.

The work in Holland as stated supported the earlier rat work by Donner, Caltech et al. They section the human Hypothalamus for visual on SDN and count P and T cells. The science is very clear, its just no one wants to look at it.

Putain is the word I use when I face palm after reading one of you posts, usually abbreviated to Pute.

The woman with the same surname as me was sacked for being a general arsehole….the brief says her fellow female employees wanted her gone too. She was not sacked for a any particular statement but her general offensive comportment which meant no one wanted to work with her.

John Devalle
John Devalle
3 years ago

Alan, post at 5.54pm, can you show where you got that from please?

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

oh, look, jerry’s back…

Galileo represents the powerless individual coming to conclusions through his own observations (like the google guy)

Galileo was studying the stars

Google guy was being a shitty engineer who faked a degree.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

The Catholic church represents the intolerant, powerful group ideology who accept things on faith and are prepared to torture and kill to support their position

ha ha, in this land of prevalent right wing terrorism
where gays, trans, and poc are always under threat by right wing media machines
where just a few days ago the gop was voting to kill off millions of americans

you call us the terrorists and intolerant groups

F to the uck and Y to the ou.

Putain is the word I use when I face palm after reading one of you posts, usually abbreviated to Pute.

Fake french….

Tizio
Tizio
3 years ago

@Jerry

The Google guy completely failed to take in account social pressures, hiring biases, the penalization of women who aggressively negotiate their salaries (while men who aggressively negotiate are advantaged), promoting biases, harassment, and the penalization of mothers (or women who are believed they will eventually become mothers, regardless of what hey actually want).
I already talked to you about that in my comment back on page 24. And if you want more resources, here they are.
And until feminists actually start burning people at the stake or threaten to, refrain from comparing them to the Spanish Inquisition. You waste of alcohol.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Galileo represents the powerless individual coming to conclusions through his own observations (like the google guy)…

How is Google guy powerless? Jobs at Google are difficult to get. He mostly likely has an advanced degree and probably from a first or second tier (AKA expensive) school. Chances are high that in addition to being white and male, he comes from an upper or upper middle class family. That makes him very privileged.

Didn’t you say that white western women are some of the most privileged people in the world? Are you really going to say that and turn around and call a white western guy with a higher education and a prestigious job “powerless?” Come on, now.

Also, the word you’re searching for is ‘analogy.’ Not ‘metaphor.’ Not only is your science 101 lacking, your English 101 is too.

The woman with the same surname as me was sacked for being a general arsehole….the brief says her fellow female employees wanted her gone too. She was not sacked for a any particular statement but her general offensive comportment which meant no one wanted to work with her.

Maybe you don’t mind working with sexist and racist dudes. But his female and POC coworkers probably found his comportment offensive and didn’t want to work with him. How is it different?

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Jerry, your metaphor was stupid, and had no bearing on current science practices.

It was another goalpost-moving deflection.

What is your purpose here? Because you’re getting really tedious, really quickly.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Google guy was being a shitty engineer who faked a degree.

Hahahaha! I didn’t see that. I take back the part of my previous post where I guess that he went to a top school.

That said, why isn’t Google doing a better job at checking these things? Maybe I should just start telling people I have an Ivy League degree instead of one from a small liberal arts college.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

http://www.businessinsider.com/james-damore-removes-phd-studies-linkedin-2017-8

Fired Google engineer who wrote the anti-diversity manifesto appears to have removed a Ph.D. program from his LinkedIn page

The Wired writer Nitasha Tiku confirmed with Harvard on Tuesday that Damore had not completed his Ph.D.

A Harvard representative confirmed to Business Insider that Damore was enrolled in the program but hadn’t completed the doctorate, though he did receive a master’s degree in biology. The representative did not say why Damore left the program, but it’s not uncommon for people to pause their doctoral studies.

Maybe I should try what he did.

“Yes Deloitte I graduated from BENTLEY UNIVERSITY at the top of my class. As you see I am very good at the numbering.”

Wetherby
Wetherby
3 years ago

This whole “conceding the election” stuff we have in the States has so much less impact than having serious politicians standing next to people from the “Monster Raving Loony” party as vote counts are read.

And the Monster Raving Loonies have scored genuine political blows – most famously in a by-election in 1990 when they beat the Social Democratic Party candidate, and the SDP was dissolved shortly afterwards. It was already in serious decline, and party leader David Owen knew that they’d never survive the humiliation of that defeat. Not least because it wasn’t even close – the Monster Raving Loony party polled something like two and a half times as many votes as the SDP.

(I should perhaps clarify that the MRLP didn’t actually win – the candidate came a fairly distant sixth. But that was still better than seventh.)

John Devalle
John Devalle
3 years ago

@WWTH

About your post at 6.02pm. Matt Forney I’ve never heard of. Paul Ellam I know little of, I’ll look him up with Google. Most MRA’s on sites I’ve seen have a user name, as most do here. Warren Farrell is one I have some knowledge of, and from what I know he’s reasonable. But whatever some MRA’s are like I’m responsible for my actions, not theirs. Just as you aren’t responsible for the actions of feminists who have extreme views.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@John Devalle

says he doesn’t know of these people and their ideas

started in this thread to insist and continue to push mra right wing ideas

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

John Devalle, you were told to use the tags on this site to read up on Cassie Jaye; I suggest you do so.

ELAM WAS IN THE MOVIE YOU’RE WAXING POETIC ON! JFC!

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Damore was enrolled in the program but hadn’t completed the doctorate

But remember, no woman has ever completed that math class thing. Checkmate, feminists!

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

I am dying of laughter here.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Why does the fuckwit asswaffle tonsil-chewing broflake troll think we have to educate him?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@ Scild
But doesn’t that contradict the work done in 60’s at Caltech with the discovery of the SDN (sexually dimorphic nucleus) were they found they could alter rat sex specific behaviour by changing hormones in gestation and physically change the SDN in their brains, since replicated in Humans in Holland………I’m confused please femsplain it to lilold me.

lol, femsplain.

also lol, he don’t know what poutine is even when there’s a picture. I’ll give him a pass on the other words, Quebecois french is an odd duck.

Ready for your neuroscience?

The research on the SDN does not in any way contradict the findings of Dr Joel. The function of the SDN relates to sexuality expression. The fact that the SDN varies in behaviour by the relative concentration of estrogen or testosterone does not make it different between males and females. Even its varying size and shape by sex doesn’t mean that men and women have different brains. That concurs with the findings of Dr Joel. If you had read her paper, you wouldn’t have brought up the SDN at all.

You don’t know how to read a white paper, do you?

And you’re still not going to accept those findings, are you? You, with no experience or knowledge in the field, consider your opinion more reliable than that of the international community of neuroscientists. It’s not just Dr Joel that’s saying it – there’s a large number of others.

I mean heck, there is room for discussion on this point. But not for you. There’s room for educated neuroscientists to debate whether it’s true. It’s recent work, after all, part of the leading edge of neuroscience. You’re not part of that edge. You have zero platform for contesting her findings. Frankly, until I see some positive evidence that you’re the engineer you say you are, you have zero platform for contesting any scientist or engineer on anything. Let’s see some tensor calc or something, huh? I’ll happily write some BBNs for you if it’ll get you to put up some proof.

The intellectually honest position to take is to say “I don’t know what’s true, so I’ll have to trust the people who study it diligently.” To do otherwise is hubris.

Let’s see some hubris, then.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@WWTH

That said, why isn’t Google doing a better job at checking these things? Maybe I should just start telling people I have an Ivy League degree instead of one from a small liberal arts college.

He’s white, male, and from an upper middle class background. That’s the qualification that’s really being looked for; a degree is just a proxy. If he’d been a different race and/or gender, you best believe they’d have checked thoroughly.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@John,

But whatever some MRA’s are like I’m responsible for my actions, not theirs. Just as you aren’t responsible for the actions of feminists who have extreme views.

I agree with you! You aren’t responsible for their actions. However, you’re standing by them by supporting the MRM. You need to educate yourself about your movement, and when you encounter things you find reprehensible you need to distance yourself from them when they are associated with you. Otherwise, you lend them silent support.

We do this with some of the worst expressions of Feminism when they show up. You need to learn the bad actors in your own movement and do the same. Otherwise, we’re more than justified in casting you in with them, just as we’re justified in saying that in the US Federal Election, a vote for anyone but Clinton was a vote for Trump. Because that’s how associations work.

I sincerely hope you can do that! Spend a little time digging through the site and reading some of the things Elam et. al. have said from a perspective that isn’t your own, and try to digest it. I won’t hold my breath for a change, but I hope you’re able to.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Galileo represents the powerless individual coming to conclusions through his own observations (like the google guy)

Galileo didn’t reach his conclusions through his own observations alone. He studied other scientific works and compared his own observations, reaching the same conclusions. The first known records of heliocentrism were from Aristarchus of Samos in 300 BC. It wasn’t until the 16th century that Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo expanded on it with their own models and observations. But their observations were not “just-so” stories taking what they believe and assuming it’s natural law; they noticed that the models were incorrect, researched other plausible explanations, and gathered evidence to test their theories. Did Google guy do any of that? Also, I like the implied comparison between being fired for creating a hostile work environment and being tried by the motherfucking Inquisition.

Paradoxical Intention - Leader of the Deathclaw Damsels

On the subject of the oppressed having to be nice: No. Fuck you.

Here’s a good general rule: If you want nice [oppressed group], you should be nice to [oppressed group].

If you want nice queer folk, you should be nice to the queer folk. Lest you have to face the asshole cockroaches who have managed to live through the cishet bullshit, and their descendants who are also asshole cockroaches who are angry on their behalf, as well as the behalf of their siblings.

You make this bed with all your pleas for us to be nice and quiet and out of the way where you can’t see us or hear us while people kill us and demand our rights taken away. Now fucking lie in it.
comment image

(Gif is relevant because Channing Tatum is bisexual. :D)

And this also applies to any other form of bigotry.

If you want nice, quiet PoC, you should be nice to PoC. You should listen to them when they talk about racism. You should pay attention when they march and organize, and not clutch your damn pearls about how they’re doing it.

If you want nice, quiet, women you should be nice to women. Listen when women talk about being harassed and victimized and told how vapid and stupid they are when they so very clearly are not, rather than trying to talk over them and insist that “Man Knows Best”.

I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Warren Farrell is one I have some knowledge of, and from what I know he’s reasonable.

The guy who called date rape exciting? The guy who compared paying for a woman’s drinks and not getting laid as compensation to rape? The guy who put a picture of a woman’s butt on the newer edition of Myth of Male Power because men are oppressed by women looking sexy? The guy who said that sexual abuse wasn’t all that traumatizing? That Warren Farrell? Reasonable?

Okay, bro.

Yet another troll fails the find a non-misogynist MRA test.

But whatever some MRA’s are like I’m responsible for my actions, not theirs. Just as you aren’t responsible for the actions of feminists who have extreme views.

You are responsible for defending them though. I would expect to be held responsible if I defended a shitty feminist. If I defended a TERF, I would expect to be called out. The difference between you and me is that I don’t defend shitty people though.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

Re: Comparison with Galileo…

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dr. ej
dr. ej
3 years ago

@John

Warren Farrell is one I have some knowledge of, and from what I know he’s reasonable.

Here are some quotes from Warren Farrell. Which of these seem “reasonable” to you?

On affirmative consent:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”

On date rape:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape. (p. 314)

On dating in general:

It is men – far more than women – whose mental capacities are diminished when they are “under the influence” of a beautiful woman.

On raising children:

[M]illions of people … are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

@John: I missed you saying that Warren Farrell seemed reasonable.
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JS
JS
3 years ago

@John
Congratulations! You decided to nitpick my language instead of understanding the point I was trying to make. I understand you don’t have any real rebuttal of the rest of it.

You continue to prove my points by responding to them with inanity.

Shapman
Shapman
3 years ago

You are wrong. Your ideas are wrong, and contribute to people having shittier lives. Why are you so mean? Why can’t you take the time to self reflect to see that the ideas you have (perfect!Bernie as a politician who would have never compromised, that change can happen if everyone is sweet to you) are damaging?

Because repeating the same ideas again and again make you look like an idiot. An assbutt, as it were.

This quote captures the essence of why I (and I am sure others who have come on this site to provide an opposing “opinion) think most of you are not part of any reasonable outcome on gender issues. You start by saying others are “wrong” and insult anyone by calling them an “idiot” for not sharing your “opinions”. That is a great way to have a dialogue and/or enact change.

and guess what, the vitriol some of you spew is easy to do from behind the anonymity of a computer. If you said some of the personal crap I have endured to my face you would be wearing your ass as a hat (oh sorry, did I threaten you? am I not allowed to do that because you are a woman and you have a blank cheque due to the real oppression previous generations of women have endured? Trigger warning? Run for your safe space!).

This from an article in of all places The Huffington Post sums up how I feel about the current state of the discussion on gender issues (the link to the entire article is below). Most of you on this site clearly don’t understand or choose to ignore the idea that most issues do not fall under a gender label but are human issues.

and it is quickly apparent that whether it is parenting, choosing no to be a parent, domestic violence, thriving at work, trying to look your best, or simply trying to get out of bed when depression hits, all of these issues are human issues rather than uniquely female. Furthermore, none of them can be addressed or resolved by framing them as women’s issues and excluding the male experience in how they are reported, and then received and acted upon. If we want to achieve gender balance for the benefit of everyone, then we need to start with how we present the issues that are so important to us all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/what-about-men_us_5975c292e4b06b511b02c4b7

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Oh, yay. Dandy Andy is back.

How’s your blog going?

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Poor Shapman. Are we spending too much time as feminists focusing on how women are impacted by the toxic beliefs in our society? Would it make you feel better if feminists focus on men? And maybe accept assertions we’ve proven time and again to be factually wrong? Would that be better?

JS
JS
3 years ago

@Shapman
I’m not sure I’m understanding your point. A person (or people) come on here to argue and debate points that have little or nothing to do with Cassie Jaye and The Red Pill. They prove over time, repeatedly, that they’re not here to listen. Nor are they here for rational debate (there have been a few “yeah, I’m trolling” sorts of admissions from both of them).

So yeah, some of us have been less than civil with them, because they were never actually here to learn, and have repeatedly shown that they don’t really want to.

There have been literally pages and pages of goalpost moving, strawman arguments, purposeful misunderstanding, Gish Galloping, and other trolling methods.

Their main purpose appears to be to get some of us here mad enough so you can have a nice quote to use to tell us we’re mean. (We’re not really being mean, but you don’t want to see that.)

And calling someone an asshat isn’t a threat, but I see you also go for purposeful misunderstanding.

What’s your actual point? Do you have one?

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

From the contributer opinion piece Dandy linked to:

One of my clients challenged me with the question ‘Should we have an International Men’s Day; after all we have an International Women’s Day’?

Lmfao. It’s November 19th, same as it has been every fucking year since 1992.

Now, I wonder why a mere woman with the faulty ladybrain would know that, when these brave (keyboard) warriors don’t?

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Is the troll trying to be scary?

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Hippodameia
If they are, they’re not doing a good job.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

kupo, you did it again. You forgot the /s tag.

You have only yourself to blame if the entirely utterly predictable happens in response. (I might have said you should hope that the likely responder would be tired of this by now – but 32!! pages of this interminable merry go round forbids it.)

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Ha!

Shapman thinks that is “where they started”. As if there was nothing before.
https://youtu.be/TKTIfXTd32M

Cry some more. This white male finds you pathetic and of no use whatever in any social problems I face.

You wilt before tone and have been shit or absent on content. If tone is what it takes to draw your attention all you do is admit a flaw.

“I’d beat you up!” Because of tone you would be the one to take the social conflict physical. Craven. You can’t control yourself and show more of how you are part of the problem. Tone is information child.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

Yeah – kind of hard to be scared by someone who goes to pieces so easily – and who was so effectively destroyed several pages back.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

JS, Shapman made his debut post on page 8. He came in hostile and complaining about the straw feminists from the get-go. He is, at best, a monumental hypocrite.

He received what he put out. And he doesn’t like that.

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