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$MONEY$ a voice for men antifeminism evil sexy ladies ha ha I tricked you infighting manginas men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA paul elam post contains sarcasm

A Voice for Men publishes an article so extreme and hateful that it makes even Paul Elam gag

Emma Watson: The woman who nearly destroyed A Voice for Men
Emma Watson: The woman who nearly destroyed A Voice for Men

Yesterday, A Voice for Men published an article so extreme, so hateful, so beyond the pale, that even Paul Elam, the site’s founder, was taken aback by it. Elam, who said he hadn’t read the article before other editors on the site posted it, claimed in a comment that when he finally did read it, it made him literally sick to his stomach.

Today, he took the extraordinary step – for AVFM – of taking down the article and offering an apology for publishing a piece so “counter to every aspect of our mission and values.” (It’s still up, for the time being, in Google cache; the original can also be found here.)

So what did this terrible, terrible article say? Brace yourself.

It said that Emma Watson’s recent United Nations speech on feminism … made some good points.

While the author of the piece, a tech dude turned “dating expert” named Jeb Kinnison, took the standard MRA swipes at the alleged evils of third-wave feminism, he argued that Watson’s version of feminism represented a kind of “equity feminism which is equally concerned with men’s rights.”

Then he described Watson as “very, very smart, and wise beyond her years … .”

I know, I know. Horrifying.

But that wasn’t even the worst part of Kinnison’s piece. In his conclusion, he actually suggested that

The smart and civilized aren’t spending their time nursing grievances based on sex, gender, race, or religion. If only the most intelligent voices were as amplified as the voices of ignorance and hate promoted by the grievance-mongering misandrists of third-wave feminism as well as insecure male misogynists.

Yes, that’s right: An article in AVFM actually acknowledged that some of those in the Men’s Rights ranks might actually be – gasp! – misogynists.

Naturally, such heresy could not stand. In the comments, a fight broke out between those who hated the article, and those who also hated it but felt that criticizing AVFM about anything was terrible and counterproductive and, hey, remember to donate to AVFM during the Fall Fundraiser!

In the former camp, the most outspoken critic was Nick Reading of Men’s Rights Edmonton, posting under the alias Eric Tiberius Duckman, who bluntly warned that

This article is disgraceful. If uncle Jeb here imparts any more of his mangina wisdom on AVFM, I’ll be seriously considering pulling my support and encouraging others to do likewise.

Elam was having none of this – very poor taste, especially during AVFM’s Fall Fundraiser! He responded to Reading’s threats to take his ball and go home with an indignant comment defending the editors who ran Kinnison’s piece and tearing into prodigal Nick:

[O]ur editors did their job and I am 100% supportive of that.

To be even more frank, even less appealing to me than this article is tantrums and ultimatums from readers attempting to exert editorial control by threatening to leave if they see content they don’t like.

Then apparently Elam decided that he didn’t support the editors 100% after all. In another comment, he declared that

This is the most overly generous, myopic interpretation of Watson’s speech I have seen, including feminist websites. It is literally embarrassing in its reductionist dismissal of issues unique to men and boys. …

I could write an entire article on what is wrong with this piece, but I am just too busy right now.

Throwing up.

Once he finished up with this, he took the piece down.

And AVFM’s Fall Fundraiser was saved!

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jupitaur
6 years ago

Emilygoddess:

What is it with MRAs and their obsession with HR? Have they been “oppressed” by being accused of sexual harassment, or is it just anger that there are women who have the ability to hire and fire them?

My husband has a relative who says he was told by a guy in HR, after he tried and failed several times to get into a management position, that he wasn’t going to get that kind of job because he wasn’t “diverse enough.”

Knowing the guy, I strongly suspect that it was one of these two things:

He was told he didn’t work well with a diverse group of people and that he needs to understand diversity more. He thinks, of course, you can only manage women or minorities if you are one and understand the crazy way they think. Unless you’re Dr. Dolittle and can talk to the animals. So there aren’t enough women and minorities in management because it taxes their wee branes but you can’t put men in those slots, that would bust the quota.

More likely I think this was just the way the HR person had of getting rid of him. The HR person didn’t feel like saying, you’re not ever going to be a manager unless you get a personality transplant so stop asking me. So he blames Political Correctness, “man to man.” It’s an easy excuse and no one’s going to report him for it and if they do he’ll deny it.

itsabeast
6 years ago

“could you knock off the updates from your boner?”

If “Updates from my boner” isn’t a Tumblr already I’d be very surprised.

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  strivingally

Clementine Ford has an interesting piece about how Emma Watson’s speech doesn’t deserve the “game-changer” praise it’s getting.

I read Ms. Ford’s piece and found it very honest. The fact remains that, when women mention the realities and statistics when talking to many men, those men tend to back away as fast as they can. Men, in general, do not like it when the facts are brought up. Oh, they are fine with hazy generalities, but they hate it when women speak honestly about what our lives are like and what happens to women and girls in many countries. They say that we are being mean, or that those things are happening “over there,” not here – as if that makes a difference.

I have had so many conversations with men…so many times when they try to shut me up with “Why do you focus on the negative?” and “What are you complaining about? Your life seems good.” They do not get it…they do not WANT to get it. It IS about power. And I am SICK to DEATH of all the exhortations to be nice…speak sweetly and we may listen…you sound like a harpy when say those things. Invite men to the struggle? No…no…not anymore. Those men who see themselves and women as human first are already there for the long haul.

The rest can go rot, for all I care anymore.

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  Misha

But what if during our space travels we run into the menfolk from Tau Ceti? That would be very, very awkward.

Well, yes, I suppose it would. What would you suggest? Oh, and the link did not work. 🙁

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Speak too directly and you’ll be dismissed as an angry, aggressive, scary bitch. Speak too indirectly and they’ll just ignore what you’re saying, other than the bits that don’t involve them giving up anything that they want or changing their behavior in any way.

There’s no point trying to play this game, because it’s always been rigged so that women lose every time. There is no right tone to adopt, because what many men take issue with isn’t really the tone, it’s the content. So, if you’re going to be criticized no matter how you phrase things, you may as well do so in the way that feels most natural and authentic to you.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

So here’s something weird. Remember that troll Sean? He just showed up by commenting on an article that someone in my extended network likes (“Emma Watson Sucks”)

… I’m actually tempted to get all sarcastic now. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon misogyny

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  spukikitty

Sane ones like The Good Men Project, which is pro-feminism as well & deals with real male issues, are true MRAs whereas goofballs like A Voice For Men, The Spearhead, Chateau Heartiste, etc. are MPMs.

I think David should adopt this. What do you think, guys?

I like it, yes I do. Male Privilege Meatheads. Has a nice ring to it.

gelar
gelar
6 years ago

Late to the comments, but I want to the chorus of people who were completely fooled by the cut!

marinerachel
6 years ago

Does anyone at The Good Men Project identify with the MRM or as an MRA? I’m not going to slander them by doing so.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Speak too directly and you’ll be dismissed as an angry, aggressive, scary bitch. Speak too indirectly and they’ll just ignore what you’re saying, other than the bits that don’t involve them giving up anything that they want or changing their behavior in any way.

There’s no point trying to play this game, because it’s always been rigged so that women lose every time. There is no right tone to adopt, because what many men take issue with isn’t really the tone, it’s the content. So, if you’re going to be criticized no matter how you phrase things, you may as well do so in the way that feels most natural and authentic to you.

This FTW.

Occasionally you see feminists going on about how other feminists should phrase things… Some believe men will listen to us if we’re nice enough and others that they will listen if we’re angry enough, but really, there’s no point to such criticism, we should just let other feminists be who they are.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Regarding the Good Men Project, I used to read some stuff there way back, and thought that they occasionally had good articles about real problems facing men. BUUUUUUT then came the infamous rape apologia. I’m NOT gonna google these articles up and link to them, but the first one was written by a rapist who basically claimed that when people get drunk and party together, rape happens sort of by accident, so if we’re gonna accept that people get drunk and party we also have to accept a certain amount of rape.

TW RAPE DESCRIPTION

He wrote about how he’d once forcibly kissed a girl at a party and then shoved his had up her vagina so hard that she was physically hurt, and he wrote that off as a silly misunderstanding, and oh how was he supposed to know that she was both physically and psychologically hurt by that event until she told him explicitly that she was much later on?

The second article was written by a woman who wrote about how her male friend had raped a girl.

TW AGAIN FOR RAPE AND HORRIBLE VICTIM BLAMING

The woman wrote that this other woman had been flirting with her male friend as a party, and for all we readers know that might have been true. But later on this other woman passed out drunk, and the author’s male friend then raped her in her drunk state. The author wrote that her male friend couldn’t possibly have known that he did something wrong, because a) we live in a rape culture that condones that kind of behaviour, and b) the bitch was asking for it anyway since she had been flirting with him earlier. I’M NOT MAKING THIS SHIT UP!!!! SHE REALLY COMBINED A AND B!!!!!

Lots of readers of the site were outraged, but the authors and site managers just doubled down and refused to acknowledged that they had done anything wrong by publishing these pieces… They just kept repeating over and over and over again that they published these pieces in order to understand why rape happens, and if we want less rape in the future this is really important. Um, yeah, it’s important to know why rape happens in order to prevent it, but here’s a suggestion; maybe looking at actual research about rape is more fruitful than looking at what apologies rapists and the friends of rapists make for their behaviour?

Anyway, totally lost fate in the Good Men Project after that one.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yeah, even putting aside the “sane” part, framing the Good Men Project as the good guys in comparison to MRAs? Nope. The disingenuous guys, maybe.

Amanda
Amanda
6 years ago

@emilygoddess – I actually just finished my sexual harassment training. It was done online through the Chamber of Commerce website this time, rather than by HR. They showed videos of sexual harassment examples, and the harassers were equally male and female. Not sure if this is the same everywhere or if they normally feature mostly males in these scenarios – I live in Santa Cruz, CA, which is a pretty progressive city. Of course, it did make me laugh because the acting was so horrendously bad and over the top!

samantha
6 years ago

I did not know where else to post this, but AARRGGHH!!!!!!!!! I am SOO ANGRY that I could spit nails! It is STOOOOPID!! It is INSULTING!!!

It is sooooo typical….sob

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/25/fox-news-mock-female-pilot-isis-sexist-jokes

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

there’s no point to such criticism, we should just let other feminists be who they are.

Yeah. I always thought letting people be who they are was the kind of the whole point of feminism anyway.

cloudiah
6 years ago

“Boobs on the ground” doesn’t even make sense in that context. She was a pilot. Her boobs were in the air.

Which made me think of flying tits. (SFW).

Googling for that brought me to this GIF:
comment image

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  cloudiah

“Boobs on the ground” doesn’t even make sense in that context. She was a pilot. Her boobs were in the air.

Hehehehehe Thanks for that, cloudiah. I needed a gentle laugh after the horror of the Fux News Guyz to put things into perspective again.

Seriously, though, I am sick to death of the constant put downs of women in ALL fields, even the ones the dudes want to keep us in. I remember the hurt and confusion I felt as a kid, learning that no matter what I did or how well I did it, the Penised Wonders of the world would always let me know that I was no good. Even the priest in my church did a sermon about how the only way that we could ever be loved by the Cosmic Thunderer was to become boys.

Ah, well…sigh. I did love the Bouncings Tits, tho…:)

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

I didn’t know before that tit is also a bird. 🙂

cloudiah
6 years ago

Well, they particularly have to demean women pilots, since that’s a branch of service where you can’t fall back on sexual dimorphism* to say women can’t do the job. So they are practically forced to reduce her to her body parts, since they can’t really point to any other grounds for keeping her out.

*Not that that’s valid in other branches of service, it’s just more obviously irrelevant in flying.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Dvärghundspossen, I have two friends who are avid birders, and while hanging out with them I hear the phrase “great tits” frequently.
comment image

DJG
DJG
6 years ago

@lordpabu – Wouldn’t mandatory classes on gender studies need at least a uniform curriculum? Given the US differences between red state and blue state science, I shudder to think of how such a course might have to look to get the nod in deep red localities.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Bina

Any particular recommendations?

I’ve heard this stuff is awesome!

RE: Dvarghundspossen

Um, yeah, it’s important to know why rape happens in order to prevent it, but here’s a suggestion; maybe looking at actual research about rape is more fruitful than looking at what apologies rapists and the friends of rapists make for their behaviour?

Yeah. I’m reading up on a lot of incest stuff lately, and I’ve found I actually get kinda tetchy when the books go into explanations of the molesters’ behavior. Just because I don’t CARE why our grandfather molested fucking everyone, he obviously was never going to stop, and I just want to be able to recover without spending even more brain juice on his feelings and rationalizations.

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

Is it permissible for me to refer to the Fox Presenters as “Boobs on the Air”?

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  GrumpyOldMan

Is it permissible for me to refer to the Fox Presenters as “Boobs on the Air”?

Well, sure. I went to look up the word “boob” just to make sure:

boob- 1905-10, Americanism; back formation from booby

noun
1. a stupid person; fool; dunce.
2. British. a blunder; mistake.
verb (used without object)
3. British. to blunder.

Have at it!!

Shaun DarthBatman Day
6 years ago

blalistic, it wasn’t a good joke so don’t worry.

Teh menz hunted the mammoth, you made the mammoth stronger, therefore you have completed your daily act of misandry. I was congratulating you.

katz
6 years ago

Is it permissible for me to refer to the Fox Presenters as “Boobs on the Air”?

Hey, who remembers John Ashcroft and the Spirit of Justice?

For you young pups, the Spirit of Justice is a statue in the DOJ of a woman with one bare breast and John Ashcroft, attorney general under George Bush and all-around terrible person, prudishly had it hidden behind a curtain.

Queue many jokes, including this parody song that ends with:

“Now when he makes a statement
You can see him on the tube
He has curtained off the statue
But you’ll still see one big boob.”

Amanda
Amanda
6 years ago

@katz – yes, I remember that!! Ugh … John freakin’ Ashcroft. Huge topic of conversation my junior year of high school – which was a conservative private school in a very liberal community. Half the class thought he was the greatest attorney general ever, the other half thought he was a terrible person who would do away with all our civil liberties.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

@ Bina, any zinc oxide-based barrier cream will do whether it’s sold for diabetic ulcer or nappy rash prevention. They’re all the same. You’re creating a slime barrier between your thighs though so while you won’t hurt at all your thighs will have a thick, slippery film on them. That’s what reduces friction and prevents the skin from touching. It’s not glamorous but it means I can wear short shorts and skirts.

Hmmmm, that description reminds me of the Penaten Creme my mom used on me and my sibs when we were in diapers. It’s quite thick and gunky and opaquely yellowish-white, although the most soothing thing in the world for rashes and as a night treatment for inflamed zits (and I used it for that long into adulthood, too). I’d be afraid of getting it on my clothes, though, so that’s a serious drawback. That stuff is hard to wash out. I will scout the foot-care aisles of the local drugstores to see what else they’ve got. If there’s any diabetic foot cream that goes on reasonably invisible, it might just work…and if not, I’ll have to get busy in the kitchen and concoct something.

LBT’s powder suggestion sounds great, though. And cheap, too!

Re: all the (avian) tits and stuff: Here are some nice boobies!
comment image

And here are some very nice tits:
comment image

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

itsabeast: If “Updates from my boner” isn’t a Tumblr already I’d be very surprised.

“Dark – still so dark… Also I think the zipper hates me.”

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

Keep the notes from your boner in your pocket is a popular response on Tumblr to unsolicited opinions, though it does not have a tag yet.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

Teh menz hunted the mammoth, you made the mammoth stronger, therefore you have completed your daily act of misandry. I was congratulating you.

Well, hey, good I got that knocked out…

Regarding the assholes making jokes on Fox:
Most people seem to have missed the point.

The two guys were actually publicly humiliating their female co-host live on the air. Putting her in her place. Everyone else just got the shot scatter.

…Jokes that are passive-aggressive bullying are not funny jokes.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I hope that the powder works for you, Bina! I have only heard good things about it from others, never used it myself.

dogg food
dogg food
6 years ago

Am I the only one who was relieved that this headline was a joke? Like, who really wants to contemplate the existence of an article so heinously sexist that Paul Elam would pull it?

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Welp, I just placed my order for that powder, so here’s hopin’. At any rate, I’ll at least smell nice. Jasmine and vetiver sounds like a lovely combination.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Sane ones like The Good Men Project, which is pro-feminism as well & deals with real male issues, are true MRAs whereas goofballs like A Voice For Men, The Spearhead, Chateau Heartiste, etc. are MPMs.

First off, knock of the ableism, spukikitty. You’ve commented and read here long enough to know better.

Second, there are already plenty of other ways of using MRA – Male Rape Apologists, for instance – to show what they’re about.

Third, given that MRAs is the term most people know, it’s a fucking BAD idea to play No True Scotsman and say that AVfMers etc aren’t “real” MRAs. They are. That’s the whole point: the MRM is entirely about male supremacy. Making up another term that nobody outside this blog knows is a great way to play their game for them and let them off the hook for anyone who doesn’t know them.

Also, the GPM as a basis for decent sorts? Maybe years ago, but it got bad enough for Ozymandias to quit writing there.

emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Didn’t the “Good Men Project” publish Hugo Schwyzer? And didn’t he quit because they weren’t feminist enough?

As for that Fox News guy and “boobs on the ground”, Jon Stewart did a pretty good takedown.

strivingally
6 years ago

GMP is very hit and miss these days. They’ll come out with something brilliant and then two posts down will be some awful dudebro apologia. I tend to not visit there and work off the assumption that if there’s something worthwhile from there it’ll find its way to me via Twitter, Facebook and sites like here. 🙂

vaiyt
6 years ago

What would you suggest?

Nuke the site from orbit.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

It’s the only way to be sure.

lordpabu
lordpabu
6 years ago

@DJG: Dear. God. I…I am only just envisioning the full spectrum of horror that kind of program could be twisted into in the red states.

I guess that every time I hear a guy talking about how women have smaller brains and are therefor less intelligent as a rule (never mind that it’s cell density that makes all the difference, not size. What is it when men and their obsession with large things?), or talking about how the reason women are weaker than men is because we don’t like physical labor, or hearing a guy call me sexist when I point out that men have more muscle mass as a rule even though I never once expressed that this is a sign of superiority…

Well, I guess I’m just going to have to flip a table and stalk off. And also move to a city as soon as possible because the small town/country Wisconsin life is just sucking the life out of me.

Btw, I totally heard those examples, and many others, spoken out loud in meat space. Anyone who thinks those attitudes exist only in anonymous comment sections are dead wrong.

And now I want to play Dead Space. I love that franchise.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

itsabeast: If “Updates from my boner” isn’t a Tumblr already I’d be very surprised.

“Dark – still so dark… Also I think the zipper hates me.”

I’m sitting here quietly choking with laughter now …

katz
6 years ago

@DJG: Dear. God. I…I am only just envisioning the full spectrum of horror that kind of program could be twisted into in the red states.

Yeah, mandatory gender education would probably just turn into mandatory gender misinformation.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Cloudiah: That would be a talgoxe, a blåmes, a svartmes and a stjärtmes from where I’m sitting. 🙂 Guess tit=mes.

Regarding the Good Men Project, actually, lots of people in a Swedish Facebook feminist group shared an article from that site some time ago. It was a father who wrote about how wrong it is for fathers to be all “protective” about their daughters’ virginity and shit, and how fathers ought to recognize their daughters’ right to autonomously decide whether and with whom they wanna have sex. That was a perfectly sensible article, so maybe it’s just a big mix over there.
But I’m not gonna go to a site and read it if they keep mixing some sensible stuff with truly awful stuff. And yeah, Ozy, who by and large was very understanding and soft towards people with MRA leanings (although I overall liked Ozy and thought zie wrote some good stuff, and I think, as said before, that if it feels right for a certain person to be all soft and understanding and keep up a feminist conversation with MRA leaning types that’s their prerogative) eventually upped and left. If I remember correctly it was because of the shitty rape apologia I wrote about above; that shit made zir think that zie’d had enough with that site.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

@Lordpabu: Funny thing is, I’ve heard several feminists say that women are probably weaker than men merely because women aren’t encouraged to be as physical as men by today’s society. Which is so weird. If having more testosteron didn’t matter, why do athletes put illegal hormones in their bodies? Are they just completely misinformed? Doesn’t steroids do anything for performance after all?

My PT said that research shows that the average difference in physical strength is bigger between non-athletes than between top athletes, which indicates that social factors play some rule – for instance, loads of women who visit the gym are actually afraid to do serious weight-lifting because they think they’re gonna end up looking “too masculine” if they do, and surely this kind of sexist prejudices play some rule in making women weaker on average. But suggesting that that’s the whole explanation just seems incredibly far-fetched and unscientific.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

And yeah, Ozy, who by and large was very understanding and soft towards people with MRA leanings (although I overall liked Ozy and thought zie wrote some good stuff, and I think, as said before, that if it feels right for a certain person to be all soft and understanding and keep up a feminist conversation with MRA leaning types that’s their prerogative) eventually upped and left. If I remember correctly it was because of the shitty rape apologia I wrote about above; that shit made zir think that zie’d had enough with that site.

::nods:: That’s how I was remembering Ozy when zie wrote here, but wasn’t sure if I’d got it right. Yeah, says something if GMP got bad enough for zir to leave.

vaiyt
6 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen:

The point is not that gender could never play a role in the average performance of men or women – the point is that they tell us nothing about the capabilities of individual men or women.

dorabella
dorabella
6 years ago

“Speak too directly and you’ll be dismissed as an angry, aggressive, scary bitch. Speak too indirectly and they’ll just ignore what you’re saying, other than the bits that don’t involve them giving up anything that they want or changing their behavior in any way.”

Yes, this. Totally agree. But, in my opinion, the solution should be to stop giving a damn if you sound bitchy angry and aggressive. I think we need to go towards a world where women accept the fact that men might find women bitchy and aggressive, and NOT CARE. If we keep raising women whose first and foremost goal is to be “nice”, we’re screwed.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

@Vayit, I get the feeling that you think you’re contradicting me in some way? But you’re not. I totally agree that you shouldn’t, for instance, say that certain jobs are for men only because they’re physically demanding, since there are obviously lots of individual women who are stronger than lots of individual men.

Lordpau said that zie’d heard from sexist men that women are on average weaker than men because women engage in less hard work, and I responded that funnily enough I’ve heard the same claim from some feminists (although put in a different way, like, society represses women into being passive rather than women free-riding on the hard labour of teh menz). I thought it was a bit funny that some sexist men and some feminists make the same incorrect claim, because it’s quite obvious to anyone who knows a little bit about the body that the fact that men on average have more testosteron makes a difference to the average differences in physical strength between men and women. But that’s all.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yeah, I’m firmly in the “if being openly feminist makes a man think that I’m bitchy, aggressive, or whatever, I don’t give a shit” category, but the thing is a. everyone’s personality is different, and that may not feel right for some people and b. everyone’s situation is different, and I’m very well aware that there’s a whole lot of privilege underlying my ability not to care*. So I think the best thing is to support the women who do want to be outspoken without talking down to the ones who don’t, or blaming them for not doing so when we don’t even necessarily know why they’re not doing so.

*No, MRA dudes, not female privilege, which doesn’t exist. White privilege, assumed to be straight privilege (even though I’m not), education, class, and so on.

Nick Kavanagh
6 years ago

And all the MRA’s in MRAville were excited that the Grinch had saved the fundraiser.