Yeah, things got really weird.
One of my dissociation triggers is arguments, so I’ve been trying to figure out what was going wrong, fix it, and get my brain out of that damn blender…

Crap, I haven’t been following this thread due to a fever and now several of the best posters are bowing out? Fucking hell.

Without breaking down all the responses to Ally, I did think someone called her a “hypocrite”, which was over the top and very insulting. I’d be really pissed too. This is a comment board and every post isn’t going to be a winner, people shouldn’t jump on someone for an appearent stumble (if it was even that).

@Cassandra

I get where you’re coming from and I appreciate you standing up for sexual autonomy (not the best phrasing but I’m a bit headspinny). I have no problem with women, trans or otherwise, discussing relationships, sexuality or even getting laid. That was pretty common stuff at the alt sex get-togethers when I young and still figuring things out.

I do have a huge problem when people tell women, especially young women, that they need to “examine” how express their sexual preferences. Their is this insidious idea that all women’s sexuality is fluid like putty and other people should feel free to see it gets molded more to their liking. Young men freak out over being forced to discuss rape, but young women nervously feel the need to ask strangers on the internet if their sexuality is “wrong”. Worse, people are telling them yup, it is wrong and they should change it, and yes, this dynamic opens the door to sexual predators.

This dynamic isn’t new, I have heard people say stupid shit about lesbians for decades. Gay men probably have as well, but I doubt it involved sexual propositions, innuendo, criticisms and weird theories about who and how I have sex. For me feminism was key in my ability to push back against the sexual coercive bullshit directed at women and that includes pompous lectures from so-called progressives telling women that they don’t understand their own sexuality and should be open to bullshit suggestions and shaming tactics. The freedom for women to have or not have the consensual sex they chose without shame is sacrosanct to me and anyone who describes other women’s sexuality as “problematic” is, at best, way out of line.

the sexual coercive bullshit directed at women and that includes pompous lectures from so-called progressives telling women that they don’t understand their own sexuality and should be open to bullshit suggestions and shaming tactics.

None of which I have ever advocated, as can be clearly seen in this very thread.

@Ally

You haven’t advocated anything like that in any thread that I’ve seen.

I’m also aware that their are transphobic women who designate themselves the lesbian police who think they get to decide who gets to call themselves a lesbian and something you will have to deal with. (Sorry if this is only making this more depressing, all the sexual policing of young women of all persuasions enrages me to no end and it’s cropping up everywhere.)

That said there are places where this debate has gotten ugly, the worst oddly enough often coming from people who are not lesbians or trans (of any sexual orientation). It’s not a TERF false flag, it’s just a new variation of a very old phenomenon.

FYI, I’m not going to leave. I’m just going to lurk a lot more and reduce my commenting significantly.

I think this was way out of line:

Thank you for comparing me to a fucking rapist.

I saw that as a legit reading on what Cassandrakitty said. But note that both parties were very likely in a highly triggered state.

I’ve read some of the ‘cotton ceiling’ commentary online. The problem I have with the concept is that TERFs take the view “you, transwoman, are not a woman. I, lesbian, only desire sex with women. Go to hell and die.” Non-TERF radfems take the view of “you, transwoman, are a woman with a penis. I, lesbian, desire sex with women who do not have penises. Thank you, but no.” Or, depending on circumstances, yes, thank you.

I have not read anything by Ally that suggests she is in favor of any woman, under any circumstances, being bullied, intimidated or forced into sex with anyone. Period. Given everything I have read about her life, I suspect that being refused sex by a cis lesbian is somewhere between Atlantis rising and an invasion of alien space bats on her list of concerns.

Cassandra, I am sorry that people you knew were raped by a transwoman. Nothing anyone has said here, as far as I can see, is a defense of that.

Also, cassandrakitty, I don’t know if you are lurking this thread, but I am very sorry that what I said was triggering to you and that even my presence here was triggering. I have PTSD due to sexual trauma and so I can relate. While I found your words highly offensive, I did not mean to exacerbate any trauma you have or sound utterly dismissive of what you have gone through.

In case it’s not clear, here’s where she misrepresented our position:

So when Ally decided to push the “if cis queer lesbians don’t want to fuck trans women it’s because of transmisogyny” argument here? Yeah, that made me feel pretty damn hostile. I was going to try to just deal with that, though, because there are a lot of people here who I really like and the idea of leaving the community made me sad. But now that I’m seeing almost everyone siding with the “cis lesbians not wanting sex with trans women is transmisogyny” argument, claiming that it’s not about sex, and insisting that it could never be misused to facilitate rape? Well, it already has been. And it probably will be again, as long as people keep pushing the inherently coercive idea that it’s bigotry not to want to have sex with someone and if a lesbian (or someone who’s bi – this stuff affects me too, which is why I’m shaking so badly with anger that I can barely type right now) says no to sex with a trans woman she’s a bigot and should be shamed by her community.

I never made that argument she claims I made. Nor did I ever deny that abusers can twist social justice principles for their own benefit. I sure as fucking hell did not ever say that a cis lesbian refusing to have sex with a trans woman is bigoted and therefore doesn’t have the right to refuse. People can look at this very thread to verify my claim.

I think cis queer women can be transmisogynistic, but not in their “attraction preferences”. I don’t think “attraction preferences”, like gender preferences, are up for public debate. I know lesbians who have been sexually assaulted for “attraction preferences”, luckily I’m not one of them, so I have strong feeling on the subject.

@contrapangloss and everyone else

You’re right, I don’t think I’m helping things by furthering this debate and will stop pouring gasoline on the fire. I don’t enjoy it and can’t imagine anyone else does. I will read and respect all responses however, I’m not trying to shut down anyone else.

I’m just bummed and a little stunned by Cassandra leaving. I hope she’ll reconsider purely for selfish reasons, she’s an awesome poster, but she’s obviously got to do what’s best for her. As does Ally. Oh well.

With that said, I am done arguing in this thread.

Well, I can’t say anything that hasn’t already been said. I haven’t known AllyS for nearly as long as I have Cassandrakitty and hellkell. I’m pretty upset that Cassandra’s leaving. I read hellkell’s message as saying she was out of the thread rather than the site in general, so I hope I’m right about that. Obviously you all have to do what’s best for you; I just wish this thread hadn’t happened. I wouldn’t mind knowing where else you guys post. I guess I’ll just leave my email in case anyone wants to drop me a line? wuffietookies@hotmail.com

I know I said I would stop arguing, and I have stopped, but I want to bring up one thing that will hopefully clarify my position even further:

The issue here is that, when the focus is on individual’s preferences, many people here are afraid of the possibility that it will end up being a discussion wherein some people say that they have to be attracted to X or else they are horrible people. In other words, this discussion becomes one wherein personal preferences are politicized to the point of encouraging coercive shaming. And that’s wrong, misguided, and deeply contrary to the feminist/womanist principle of sexual and bodily autonomy. No one should be shamed into doing sexual things that they don’t want to do.

I provided examples of individuals and their preferences to make a general statement about how attraction is influenced by privileged subjectivity and oppressive attitudes that the person has. But I understand how this can easily be interpreted as debating people’s attraction preferences, which is inappropriate. All I aimed to demonstrate, in the greater scheme of things, is that oppression (be it transmisogyny, disablism, white supremacy, or whatever) shapes beauty norms. And I don’t think anyone has an issue with that point. It is a discussion that can happen without any risk of crossing people’s boundaries.

Speaking of cis women facing the brunt of male violence due to their high population relative to trans women: even if that claim was valid, it would have to be based on reliable statistics about the approximate population of trans women. And so far, the only studies that ever try to determine the population of trans women get their demographic information from medical records related to transition. But that’s a bullshit measure because 1) not every trans woman wants to transition 2) not every trans woman is able to do so and 3) many trans women are still not out to themselves due to the level of structural violence they face for even coming out to themselves. So in truth, we don’t know how many trans women (and, by implication, trans men and all other trans people) are really out there.

For all the USAian mammotheers, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (http://www.thetaskforce.org/) has a campaign to find out just how many LGBTQ people are out there and get them counted (queer the census campaign) and represented (queer our taxes campaign) I support these, they’re worth checking out.

Oh no. I’m away for a couple of days, and this happens.

I don’t really feel like commenting on the subjects brought up in this thread, so I’ll just say I’m sad to see people I like leave or feel reluctant to comment here anymore. There are a lot of great comments that will be left unwritten now.

But if this is not a good place for you anymore, you of course do what you need to do. Best of luck to you all.

I’m going to need some ice cream now. And kitty videos. I love kitty videos.

What do you have against mgtow’s? Say what you will but we aren’t violent. This was a decent article but I have some qualms. For one there is a pretty big difference between real mra’s and masculinits. Mra’s shine a light on men’s issues that deserve to be talked about without being mocked whereas masculinists are a scary bunch, male supremacists just as bad as any hategroup.

What do you have against mgtow’s? Say what you will but we aren’t violent.

Now, I don’t believe this is necessarily true. If you need a label like MGTOW for “I’m not going to date or get married, ever”, you’re probably expecting people to care what you’re doing with your personal life. That takes a pretty big ego. And what do people with large egos do when they’re confronted with the reality that no one actually cares? That’s right, they get angry. Angry men, especially when taught by society that violence is an acceptable method for men to solve their problems and defeat their “enemies”, may get violent.

And yeah, I’d like to see what the MRAs are actually doing about male issues. So far, all the head honchos seem to be focusing on is how it’s the fault of women that men have problems.

@lindwormlady & sparky:

Kitties! So adorable!

And, lol, not violent therefore not contemptible. That is funny, Sir! Most of the homophobes I know aren’t violent. They still suck and are Part of the Problem.

My problem with “you people” by which I mean MGTOWs is you keep lying. These guys who hate me not because we’ve ever had a negative interaction or anything but because I have a vulva and they don’t like people with those because irrationality keep saying they’re so sick of me they’re going their own way and I get super pumped because that’s exactly what I’d like to see AND THEN THEY NEVER DO!

I’m going to contribute one last time before I take my leave because, yeah, I think a few too many people are upholding a really paternalistic attitude that’s resulting in others feeling they can’t discourage hurtful and potentially toxic ideas from being challenged based on who they come from. I’m not comfortable with that. I get it. I believe it comes from a kind place. I think it’s inhibiting the discussion I believe needs to happen though so I’m at the point of giving up. That’s OK. I’d hate to see this place suffer and die. I really consider the compassion and genuine kindness I’ve seen from many of you invaluable. I don’t like something I see happening here though and I’m afraid exactly what I see happening prevents the discussion that needs to happen from happening because ideas when they come from certain people are sacrosanct. That’s why I’m at that “Not worth it” point. I’m leaving for the time being with a heavy heart.

This will be my last contribution for the time being:

My mom was telling me about a great sermon at her church which by all accounts was wonderful and very informative for her. The problem is the group who gave the presentation are associated with holocaut denialist groups. I kindly but firmly told her “Mom, please be careful who you talk about this presentation around. This organisation is associated with Holocaust denialist groups and some people will be really hurt if they hear you promoting this group.”

I wasn’t calling my mom a holocaut denialist or nazi sympathizer or anything. I was informing her of unintensd implications of what she was saying, that unpleasant people use some of the same ideas albeit to a very nasty end. That’s it. No accusations. No comparisons. Just informed her and asked her to be careful.

And that’s why I don’t think accusing anyone of having compared anyone else to a rapist or called them a rape apologist is fair. It’s just saying “As I understand it your argument is hurtful to me because I have seen it used by others to a terrible end.” That’s it.

I’m sad. I’ve only been able to keep up with the open thread for personal stuff lately, and I don’t know what’s been happening in the rest of the threads, but it’s clearly been tense.

I’m very sorry to see you go, hellkell and cassandrakitty. Take care of yourself, and I hope I see you around elsewhere.

I will say that, every time this community has had heated discussions in the past in which the majority were on one side and cassandrakitty was on the other, cassandrakitty had the right of it every time. I think her instincts are dead-on, and I think she shows great patience and kindness in explaining her views to people who are often obtuse, myself included.

Cassandrakitty, I think that you have been a big part of why this community has always been such an internet haven for me, and I think we’ll be the poorer without you.