Is War Machine, the mixed martial arts fighter accused of brutally beating his ex, a Men’s Rights Activist?
The “hero” the Men’s Rights movement deserves?
If the Men’s Rights movement is looking for a celebrity endorser, I think I’ve found just the guy for them: the mixed martial arts fighter, and erstwhile porn actor, War Machine, currently sitting in jail on charges of brutally beating and attempting to kill his ex-girlfriend, porn star Christy Mack.
Men’s Rights activists should be able to look past these criminal charges; after all, as they remind us all the time, women are forever falsely accusing innocent men of all sorts of terrible things.
And in so many ways War Machine is perfect for them. An MMA fighter, he’s already only one letter away from being an MRA. A misogynistic asshole with rage issues, he’ll have no trouble fitting in with the Men’s Rights crowd. And, especialy important for a movement that has a lot of trouble getting any good PR, he’s a bit more comfortable on camera than the Paul Elams and Dean Esmays of the world, with experience on television (on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter: Team Hughes vs. Team Serra), and in seven films (albeit pornographic ones).
Best of all: he’ll need no ideological education from what A Voice for Men likes to call Fuck Shit Up University. War Machine – real name Jonathan Koppenhaver – is already an outspoken proponent of many of the Men’s Rights Movement’s core beliefs.
Consider these selections from a little Men’s Rights manifesto War Machine wrote a few years ago during a previous stint behind bars, serving time for felony assault after two bloody bar fights. His rant, which a friend posted to the internet, would fit right in with the sort of stuff we’ve seen regularly posted on the Men’s Rights subreddit, or The Spearhead, or A Voice for Men. I’ve bolded some of the Men’s Rightsiest bits:
The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America…
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant … NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! …
Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. …
And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to “play it safe.” They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’
If any of you have your Men’s Rights Bingo cards out, I’m guessing you might already be close to scoring a bingo. We’ve got a comparison to slavery that could have come straight from the pages of A Voice for Men, a marriage-is-death-to-male-dreams rant that could have been borrowed from any MGTOW forum, and an evo-psych-esque argument that men are the true risk-takers and the world’s real innovators.
And I don’t think War Machine would have much trouble with Paul Elam’s “Bash a Violent Bitch Month,” either.
[I]t’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering “Why in the hell do American men get married!?” … If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back … Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch!
In another online posting, War Machine touched on another Men’s Rights hobbyhorse, the notion that the justice system is stacked against men:
[L]ook at the prisons, they are FULL of MEN, not women. Are men “evil” and women not? Or do the laws target and attempt to restrict NATURAL MEN’S BEHAVIOR? How many of the HEROES in American history would avoid prison if they lived today? Davey Crockett? Thomas Jefferson? David Bowie? General Grant & General Lee? Shit, George Washington. … Laws target MEN and men’s behavior. Women want to bitch and cry about their rights and equality… LMAO! MEN are the ones locked away like animals, while women run free!
Someone might have to explain to War Machine that David Bowie is not actually a famous American HERO but a famously androgynous British musician who once recorded an album called “Heroes.” (Mr. Machine may be thinking of James Bowie, a well-known 19th century American frontiersman and slave trader, and the guy the Bowie Knife is named after.)
But other than that, he seems ready to go.
There is, of course, that whole attempted murder charge to deal with.
It’s true the Men’s Rights Movement has had few problems in the past rallying behind men with histories of violence. But War Machine might be a harder sell as a Men’s Rights hero. His alleged attack on Mack left her with a cracked rib, a ruptured liver, numerous broken bones, missing teeth and her eyes swollen shut. (See here for photos of her injuries; obviously this link is NSFW and could be triggering.)
While Mr. Machine denies attacking Mack, he joked to a TV host last year that if she were to leave him “I would just kill her” and get a tattoo saying “Rest In Peace” above the tattoo of her name he has on his neck.
And several hours after allegedly trying to murder her, War Machine tweeted this lovely message about his ex:
War Machine does seem to be at a low point in his life. Even aside from the charges he faces, and the time he seems likely to serve, his career in porn is almost certainly over. The “Alpha Male” clothing line he helped start wants nothing to do with him. Nobody but the prison system seems to want this guy.
In other words: Men’s Rights activists, this is your chance! War Machine may not be the, er, hero you want. But he’s certainly the hero you deserve.
Posted on August 21, 2014, in a voice for men, alpha males, antifeminism, domestic violence, entitlement, excusing abuse, incoherent rage, men created civilization, men invented everything, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, post contains sarcasm, reactionary bullshit, red pill, violence and tagged anti-feminism, antifeminism, christy mack, domestic violence, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, red pill, violence against women, war machine. Bookmark the permalink. 1,454 Comments.
@kittehserf – “It’s saying who lesbians should be willing to…”
On the gay side of the hill, it’s not just whom, but there’s also another conversation about how, if that explains it enough.
I’m honestly finding this thread extremely triggering, so I lack the energy to respond to everything. I’ll try to address the two main things being argued about here at the very least. And maybe some other appalling stuff in this thread if I’m up for it.
I know the origin of “scrotosphere”. I’m not stupid. I have made the most charitable assumption about the people who made that term – that it was never intended to include trans women.
But here’s the thing: intent doesn’t erase meaning. The word itself associates men with trans women by virtue of their commonly possessed “male” reproductive organ, and that is the problem with the word. I said that it reinforces “the notion of gendered bodies” in that it reinforces the idea that bodies determine gender. That’s why it’s transphobic. It’s also most likely triggering to a lot of trans women for various reasons, one of those being related to dysphoria. Tacitly coding my own private parts as “male” is transphobic, regardless of intent.
I find it highly hypocritical of some of the people here to insist that the word is benign because of the intent behind it, in spite of the history of literally every regular commenter on this blog criticizing MRA dudebros for saying the c-word while claiming that they aren’t misogynistic because they don’t intend to demean all women.
I chalk up this hypocrisy to privilege. Everyone calling me out in this thread is, as far as I can tell, white and cis. Despite claiming to be allies of trans people, it seems to me that the most important thing that informs your judgment is your own perspective. But being an ally requires you to stop privileging your own view of things. Am I right about literally everything about transmisogyny and white supremacy? Obviously not. But if you are privileged, my opinions on the oppression I face should be given more consideration than a terse, close-minded hypocrisy-fueled dismissal along the lines of “I don’t agree with you.” Not even a “I don’t understand how you think that’s transphobic; can you explain?” Just outright rejection of my objections. Like some feminists have said before, allyship is a process, not a status. Being an ally requires you to be self-critical and to reject the assumption that you will inevitably reach the point of being The Greatest Ally with little to no effort.
And this case, my opinions on that word should be given a great amount of consideration since I’ve been on the receiving end of a lot of transphobic language myself. Who has a better understanding of transphobic language: someone who has lived all her life as a trans girl or a cis woman who reads a few articles about transphobic language?
This behavior is appalling and not reflective of the tolerant, sensitive atmosphere that I thought would always be here ever since I started commenting. Clearly I was a fool. Note that this kind of shit has happened before in response to me saying that something is transphobic.
And about me venting about my fear of men: I find it strange that I have seen countless commenters, regular commenters, say “men” without any qualifier like “some” or “most” and they have never faced any criticism. Yet when I do likewise, people get upset at me. I can’t help but feel that this antipathy is rooted in some unconscious bias against trans women who express their fear of male aggression.
And kitteh, I brought up the issue because I call out transphobic language whenever I find the opportunity to do so. That’s something I have always done as a trans woman. I do it offline and online in order to help people understand the harms of transphobic language.
As for the cotton ceiling, I’m honestly shocked and hurt by the fact that you are basically repeating one of the most common TERF talking points – that us trans lesbians are pressuring cis lesbians to have sex with us. There was a whole fucking thread about this and I thought I made myself clear that I never advocated the violation of consent and boundaries of cis lesbians. I only pointed out the importance of recognizing that attraction can be influenced by privileged subjectivity and oppressive attitudes. Y’all get angry (and rightfully so!) at PUAs who complain about being pressured by feminists to have sex with “fat women”, so why the double standard? Don’t y’all understand that there is a difference between saying that “fat people” are entitled to sex from thin people and saying that there are unfair, fatphobic biases that tend to influence people’s attraction preferences? Why not apply the same reasoning to us trans lesbians? I don’t understand.
Also, of course trans women face the brunt of male violence. Their population size relative to that of cis women is irrelevant. Someone here had a great example of saying that, while black POC face the brunt of police brutality, other people still suffer from it.
Do I also need to point out that trans women also count as wives, sisters, daughters, etc. AKA women in close relation to men, that trans women are disproportionately represented among sex workers, that trans women of color face violence of a magnitude several times greater than that of white trans women and indeed cis women (white or of color)?
I was a fool for thinking this was a safe space. Maybe there’s just something wrong with my head, but I can’t but feel that I’ve been singled out due to hostility against me. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, since I have upset people here numerous times during various other conflicts I’ve had here on WHTM ever since I became a MBZer/Mammotheer.
Lastly, things like this are why I seriously consider leaving this place. The animosity I face here from time to time is becoming too much to bear, especially these days. What has happened in this thread is merely one example of said animosity. People can tell me that I’m being childish for leaving over “just a disagreement”, but y’all know that fundamental, bitter disagreements are always inimical to communal cohesion. My views are too personal for me to just push disagreements to the side, especially when so many people here are ones I have been fond of (or at least used to be fond of). I have literally had people here who saved me from a life-threatening situation with my abusive father, and now I have to deal with so many folks here having this disproportionately antagonistic attitude towards me. Maybe I deserve it, but either way it hurts.
I may or may not come back to this thread. If I don’t, y’all know why.
Ally, I can totally understand if you don’t come back. I’d miss you though, and I’m sorry about the animosity you experienced.
LBT, I’ve met the non-binary people who look down on binary trans people. My ex lost a lot of friends when she transitioned (she identified herself as genderqueer prior to transition) for that very reason.
Nobody’s immune to being an asshole. But it seems more personal to turn on a friend for doing what they have to do to be happy and healthy.
Shit, that’s dark. Uh, for something happier, check out Julia Serano’s new book, Excluded. It’s really good.
Hey Ally, you’ve never been anything but kind to me and I’ve constantly observed what a good soul you are in general. And I know I’m not alone. So wherever you end up, I hope you can take that with you.
Don’t worry Ally, your feelings will always be front and center.
It’s been real, kids. I’m out.
Yeah, dog forbid that there should be a place where the feelings of trans women of color are placed “front and center” over the feelings of cis white women.
Wow. I did not think this would be a debate here. I’m disappointed.
Since when does asking people to be better allies the same as telling them to center my feelings at the expense of everything else?
Ally, it doesn’t. It’s just asking people to be better allies.
I really don’t get what just happened here.
Seconded. Wow.
Thirded.
Seeing how the MRM is mostly interested in political/institutional issues as well as with how society views men, only the very first sentence in his quote is at all something an MRA would say. A slightly overheated MRA, I don’t think many would agree, but at least that’s MRA talk.
To conflate the rest – basically talk about masculinity – with the MRA is exactly equivalent to calling makeup advice ‘Feminism.’
Also, just to emphasize this point again:
Being privileged and asking questions in order to gain an understanding of what oppressed people are saying? Totally ok, assuming said oppressed people are willing to provide answers. Being privileged and automatically disagreeing with everything oppressed people say that doesn’t neatly fit with your preconceptions? Not ok. The latter is what has happened in this thread.
I’m not telling privileged people to shut up, nor am I attempting to push onto privileged people an unbalanced dialogue wherein they have no right to speak out against something they perceive to be oppressive in and of itself. I’m asking them to listen and try their best to understand social justice issues as theorized by oppressed people. I have no idea how I can make this point clearer.
Holy shit, is Bootsey back?
*feeling a bit shell-shocked*
Man, I feel like I sparked all this horrible shit by naively using that stupid word, then telling Ally I was uncomfortable with what she had said. I said sorry a million times and thought it was sorted but then people are talking about dog piling and I’m like, wait, was that me? And it isn’t actually about me, I just feel bad. I should shut my stupid mouth. Or at least limit it to talking about butts. No one can object to butts surely?
fluffy fluffy butts?
I say this as an observation, not as a request that anyone explain themselves or their feelings: This feels like the final venting of anger and hostility towards Ally that has been visibly building here for a while. I’m not sure why that is.
THIS!
Ally, I respect your choice, whether it’s to return here or not. All I can tell you is that I you will be missed and I’m sorry this went down this way.
There’s a pile of hugs here for you if you want them.
I noticed that too.
Daintydougal, I don’t think it’s your fault at all. You were two people asking each other “can you not do that?” and then agreeing not to do that. I don’t know why it didn’t just end there. So I hope you don’t feel too bad.
For what it’s worth, daintydougal, I’m not upset at you or blaming you for anything.
I’m a realtive noob here and should probably bow out of this whole thing about Ally but, what the hell…
I agree with everything Lea said about this. Hugs if you want ‘em, Ally and do what you need to, but know that this 54 year old cis het white woman would really miss your point of view here!
I’m feeling a bit shell shocked by all this as well. Clearly the anger in this thread goes beyond the specific issues being discussed. I honestly don’t understand the animosity towards Ally here, or why the “cotton ceiling,” a Cathy Brennan favorite, is being discussed at all. (I don’t think anyone here is a TERF, but I’ve literally never heard that phrase being used seriously outside of TERFdom.)
Ally, I understand why you feel the way you do, but I truly hope you decide to stay.
Hellkell, I’m very sorry that you’ve decided to leave.
Wow. Just…wow.
How did this all come about? I mean, I’ve read the whole thread, and kept quiet because I didn’t have anything insightful to add, but, just wow guys.
Ally, I really value your comments here. I, personally, will feel a little let down if you leave the blog. If you stay or if you go, though, I really wish you well, either way.
Hellkell’s leaving, too? Ah, crap!
My reading fail. Hugs, Hellkell, if you want them.
Thirding that. That’s how I read it, and that’s why I didn’t feel the need to pounce on what Ally said. I know from what I’ve read here so far that she’s going through a real shitstorm right now, so all I want, and all I really can do, is not to add to that. And to hope that when I slip up, others will correct and forgive me. I’ve had my slips here (most of you have seen them, and man am I sorry), but I am learning a lot from this place. None of it easy, but all of it very helpful in making me a more mindful writer, and a more thoughtful person in general.
I don’t know if I’ve used the word “scrotosphere”; it doesn’t seem likely, as it doesn’t immediately pop to mind when I think of all these willy-waving wankers of the Menz Rightz Bowel Movement. I have no objections to the word personally, but neither do I object to not using it out of deference for Ally, or anyone else here whom it hurts. I would rather err on the side of not-hurting than on the side of “all censorship is eeeeeebul!” I won’t be using that word from now on. I am all for coming up with a fun-but-neutral alternative…would “wankosphere” work for you all? (Because, y’know, everybody wanks, but most of us know better than to do it in public…)
And yeah, that “cotton ceiling” thing, as interpreted by Brennan & Co., is a load of shite. As I understand it, the term started out simply meaning “the barrier faced by trans lesbians in being accepted as women and as lesbians”. (“Cotton” being a reference to the fabric found in the crotch of one’s underwear.) It’s about other people’s acceptance of one’s identity and orientation, not coercion. It never had anything to do with anyone telling anyone else whom they should have sex with. And the most telling thing of all is the glaring paucity of news stories of men-posing-as-trans-women assaulting women in public washrooms and other women-only spaces. If it’s not happening, and happening A LOT, it’s not to be feared, and there is no need to legislate against trans people using the washrooms that correspond to their gender identity. Nor is there any right to exclude them from women’s spaces anywhere. And anyone whipping up a bogus panic about it should be debunked and discredited.
Yeah, I have to agree with Viscaria and emilygoddess. This whole thing has made me really uncomfortable, sad, and angry. Ally, just adding to the voices that hope you don’t leave, but whether or not you leave I wish you all the best.
Ally, I know my comments are a bit sporadic but I really enjoy reading your thoughts and agree with you 100% on this. I’m working hard to make my feminism trans inclusive and I respect thoughts on language/terminology from any trans woman when I’m talking about feminist issues. I totally get why you might want to leave, and you have every right to, but I hope you know that your input is respected by a lot of people.
Thanks Ally, it means a lot that you let me know.
TERF crapola just seems to be ubiquitous. You start reading it then its like, wait, what someone else calls their genitalia literally affects me zero amount, why am I reading this? Not only does it affect me zero amount but it can be actively hurtful to other people. Then you look at kitty pics. Praise be to Bootsy.
I really hope there’ll be some way back from this. This is glass cage of emotion level stuff.
Also, on saying that men are terrifying. Look, I say that too quite often. Of course I don’t mean every single man I’ve ever met – but so long as cisgendered (and let’s face it, white, heterosexual) men have so much power in my society, I will be a scared of them because I know how protected they are and how much I risk for wanting better. I mean, in Ireland the possible penalty for getting an abortion is 14 years while the sentence for rape is 7 years. Pregnant people are not treated well here and out medical consent laws don’t cover them. And even though there are men who are raped and of course, some men are born with a uterus, I feel that the reasons behind that system stem from male power structures. Does that make sense?
sorry, typos. I’m typing while tired and just back from a very emotional protest!
Another problem with the TERF approach to the cotton ceiling is that they attack trans women for labeling their own bodies as female. The truth is, I have a female body by virtue of having a female gender. To assert otherwise is to grant legitimacy to the practice of coercive gender assignment, the root of the oppression of trans women. And it also amounts to misgendering me. I don’t have a male body – I simply have a body nthat needs some correction (see: transitioning).
Hit the nail on the head.
I read the article/blogpost that LBT posted on the “cotton ceiling” and thought it was a really good explanation of the issue, including what is so wrong about the TERF interpretation of it.
I really don’t like the comparison between what happened with Just Give Up and this thread. Just Give Up was in a state of abject crisis. People make absolutist black and white generalizations when they’re in that place. As someone who was in that place shortly prior, at which point I was sure the only way to manage the pain was to not exist any longer, I wasn’t under the impression “Men will continue to hurt me”. Just Give Up didnt express that sentiment either. They just expressed hopelessness for healthy relationships. That not comparable to “Men are terrifying”.
The “dog-piling” that occurred here was very reasonable and calm. A handful of people were irked and said “That’s not fair, don’t do that” in a calm manner. I don’t even know how you can call that dog-piling. It was proportionate and reasonable. The response to that response I found to be quite disproportionate.
I’ve lived in Nigeria. I’m white. I learnt pretty quickly I am hated. My appearance alone warrants hatred from people who have suffered due to systemic oppression by people who look like me. I understand that and I empathise. I don’t blame anyone for a second for having those feelings. I still recognise them as unfair and unproductive. I can understand the why without condoning the behaviour.
I have man problems. I still let my dad physically assault me because my self esteem is so fucking low that I will see him to seek validation knowing he’s going to beat me up. I have had three BAD boyfriends who took out their anger on me and I spent years desperately seeking the approval of. By default, I’m anxious around men. I know letting that control my behaviour isn’t helpful though, that it’s actually counterproductive, so I don’t express negative generalizations about them.
And I couldn’t give two shits about tossing the expression “scrotosphere”. It’s an insult referencing genitals. I get why that’s hurtful to people with scrotums who don’t identify with or mirror the people of the manosphere at all.
The refusal to even embrace a morsel of correctness from those individuals saying “Whoa, that’s not fair. I understand you’re speaking from a place of negative personal experience. Don’t do that though” is what I take umbrage with.
And Ally apologised and agreed to desist with the “Men are terrifying” stuff so I don’t even have a problem with what she’s said. I have a problem with “How dare you call her statement unfair. Shame on you!” Ally’s strong. She doesn’t need to be coddled and kept free of criticism.
Speaking of cis women facing the brunt of male violence due to their high population relative to trans women: even if that claim was valid, it would have to be based on reliable statistics about the approximate population of trans women. And so far, the only studies that ever try to determine the population of trans women get their demographic information from medical records related to transition. But that’s a bullshit measure because 1) not every trans woman wants to transition 2) not every trans woman is able to do so and 3) many trans women are still not out to themselves due to the level of structural violence they face for even coming out to themselves. So in truth, we don’t know how many trans women (and, by implication, trans men and all other trans people) are really out there.
Sorry, I was asleep for 19 hours because I have a massive fever spike and stuff. And I missed stuff! Ups.
Ally, if you’re facing animosity on a regular basis from several vectors, then I’m certainly sorry I added to it by going on a tangent viz a vie the men thing. No one needs that kind of stress, and that really really sucks. Good luck with things. There are open threads if you need to talk, and you have my e-mail, so yeah.
However, and I say this knowing I could be wrong, and that I don’t want to dictate your experience, I don’t think people are really biased against your because of an unconscious impulse, and that this anger would reach across multiple threads and then corrode and corrupt the discourse into such a way as to render it terse, insensitive, intolerant, uncouth and rude, fueled by a hypocrisy-and-privileged blinded inability to consider other people’s point of view.
I think they like you, because you are likable, and don’t find you as some kind of alien organism that needs to be broken down and assimilated. And I think asking you not to use a phrase because of the splash damage is not, somehow, an attempt to control your emotions. I think it’s the exact same thing as you were asking other people to do, because words mean things and they sometimes hurt people.
Anyhow, anything else I can’t comment on.
And I’m going to go have more pain killers now.
@Fibinachi
You’re positing a false dichotomy here. I was talking more about a hostile bias that manifested itself in grudge-like attitudes and tendencies for people to snap at me for no good reason. It doesn’t have to be as overwhelming and incessant as you make it out to be.
I wasn’t saying that anyone was trying to control my emotions by asking me not to use a phrase. I made a mistake in understanding what kinds of things are acceptable to say on WHTM, and I apologized. I simply stuck to arguing about the hypocrisy that was related to the whole thing. Being called out wasn’t something I really had any problem with at all. That’s why I immediately desisted without any complaints about being asked to do so.
I thought saying that was fine. I think most people here probably thought saying that was fine. What I don’t get is why Ally apologizing and desisting wasn’t enough.
Sorry, I was just using your words to explain the phenomena you were experiencing, and you yourself said had and was happening to you. I apologize if that’s incorrect, and that I slipped into somehow making it into a larger thing than you were experiencing it to be.
As I said, I can’t really do the… thinking… thing today. Because my brain is… thing… with… stuff.
Am I incorrect in thinking that “control emotions” also means “dictate experience”? I use it to mean that, because someone is trying to control someone elses emotions as they relate to a thing. So, it’s like, dictating their experience, or trying to control how they feel about something. If that’s also not the case, I apologize again. Because ups.
That’s what I got from this:
Like trying to tell you your experiences was invalid because of… something.
My painkillers aren’t working.
Life is suffering.
Oh my god, this… escalated.
Ally, I think you’re totally in the right here, and shouldn’t have been made to feel triggered and attacked in that way.
I would really hate to lose your voice here in the comment threads because you always have such interesting, important and eloquent things to add to these discussions
Fibinachi, sorry you’re feeling so crummy. I hope you feel better soon.
It would sound different to me, largely because I instinctively fused “scrotosphere” with the British term of abuse “scrote”, which essentially means “an obnoxious or contemptible person” (it’s a slightly, but only slightly, ruder form of the word “git”).
So for me (at least before this conversation), “scrotosphere” actually worked beautifully in that neatly conveyed both the exaggerated masculinity of the MRM and the fact that they’re contemptible jerks – the first time I heard the term, I immediately knew what it meant and who it was referring to. I wouldn’t make the same automatic associations with “vulvosphere”, because it wouldn’t have that double meaning.
But I imagine “scrotosphere” doesn’t have that double meaning for anyone non-British, so I can readily appreciate that other people might read the term very differently. And if people are genuinely offended by it, that’s as good a reason for not using it as any. (In fact, I’m not sure I ever did use it myself except within this post, so it’s no great loss.)
@Fibinachi
I’ll try to restate the most important point of that paragraph: basically, the immediate dismissal of what oppressed people say is a mark of privilege, unexamined or otherwise. And it’s wrong because oppressed people always deserve extra consideration for what they say on the issues that affect them, even if they’re wrong. It’s not about allies agreeing unconditionally with oppressed people, but rather allies approaching these dialogues as allies rather than privileged people merely making assertions in the face of oppressed people calling something out.
I’m sorry to hear that your painkillers aren’t working. You might want to consider kratom tea. It’s not the same as a painkiller, but it certainly is relaxing, which aids in pain relief, obviously.
Woah woah WOAH! Ally and HellKell are leaving!?
I’m not entirely sure if I’ll leave, but I’m strongly considering it. At the very least, I won’t contribute nearly as much as I used to. I’ll just lurk and continue to read WHTM from time to time.
Ally s
Yes please join us :( but it’s your choice do whatever is best for you.
Just wanted to say – I have had no issues or objections to anything Ally has said. FWIW, I’m saying that as a white cis man. I would very much prefer it if both Ally and Hellkell were to decide to stay. I hope that they feel comfortable and safe enough to do so.
Oh what am I saying!? Don’t go guys! ;-;
http://gallery.raccoonfink.com/v/misc/shrek-2-puss-in-boots.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
OK, I’ve not been around for long enough to have a valid opinion but…I’d hate it if Ally and hellkell left.
But if they’re mental health would suffer by being here, then..go. Cos us missing you is less important.
Damn! Their, not they’re.
So, I wasn’t sure if i was going to say anything before leaving, but I guess I probably should just because it’s rude to leave a community you’ve been in for years with no explanation.
Anyone here know who [name redacted] is? She used to be part of the same group of friends as a good friend of mine. Then she raped multiple people. The way she was able to get away with manipulating the victims into the situations where she raped them? By accusing them of transphobia and suggesting that if they didn’t fuck her they were transphobes and hey, what would their friends think of that? The reason most of the victims kept quiet afterwards and it wasn’t until one person (my friend) heard multiple victims telling the same stories that something was done about it? Because the victims were too scared of being seen as transmisogynistic and pushed out of their community (young, mostly queer, leftist activists) to tell anyone what had happened to them. My friend wasn’t a victim, but honestly, that’s pure dumb luck. She could have been.
So when Ally decided to push the “if cis queer lesbians don’t want to fuck trans women it’s because of transmisogyny” argument here? Yeah, that made me feel pretty damn hostile. I was going to try to just deal with that, though, because there are a lot of people here who I really like and the idea of leaving the community made me sad. But now that I’m seeing almost everyone siding with the “cis lesbians not wanting sex with trans women is transmisogyny” argument, claiming that it’s not about sex, and insisting that it could never be misused to facilitate rape? Well, it already has been. And it probably will be again, as long as people keep pushing the inherently coercive idea that it’s bigotry not to want to have sex with someone and if a lesbian (or someone who’s bi – this stuff affects me too, which is why I’m shaking so badly with anger that I can barely type right now) says no to sex with a trans woman she’s a bigot and should be shamed by her community.
If it was just Ally who thought that way I could deal, but knowing that it’s not just her, it’s lots of people, I can’t participate here any more. I’ve already been feeling reminded of every other time someone has refused to respect my sexual boundaries and has tried to manipulate me into sex I didn’t want every time I see her comment, and now that I know she’s far from alone in that opinion? Nope, can’t do it any more. I’m also not willing to disrespect [name radacted's] victims by just keeping my mouth shut and playing along. I’m out.
(Good luck to everyone with the various projects they’ve been working on, and Falconer, I hope your babies grow up strong and healthy and happy. Bye, guys.)
[NOTE FROM DF: Cassandra asked me to redact the name here b/c she is worried about the safety of all involved, including the woman whose name I've readacted.]
And I know I would never think or support that, cassandrakitty. I don’t think anyone here would. It sounds like a giant misunderstanding due to lack of knowledge of triggers.
Yeah, I mostly lurk and I do not understand what is going on…and I’m a lesbian.
I’ve stayed out of the bits of the conversation that tend to focus on areas I don’t understand. That’s not supporting one person over another, that’s me completely confused.
I guess it’s a misunderstanding, but I’m not sure how it came about. I’m a cis lesbian and I did not read any of these comments in a way that suggested I was obligated to have sex with trans women. I don’t even right now.
Buddaflow, nobody cares.
So, this is what Ally actually said:
No one — not Ally, certainly, but no one else here either — is saying that cis lesbians have to sleep with trans women to prove they aren’t bigots. Because we’re not manipulative assholes or rapists, and that is what manipulative asshole rapists do. I’ve had straight woman friends who were manipulated by lesbians who told them that if they were really feminists, they would only have sex with women, because they wanted to sleep with them. It’s for shit sure that assholes like Hugo Fucking Schwyzer have used feminism to pressure women to be more “sex positive” so that they can make their own boners happy. Is that an indictment of feminism? Nope. It’s a recognition that manipulative asshole rapists will use anything at hand to get what they want.
This is not a community filled with manipulative assholes, and I am very comfortable staying here, sorry as I am to lose the people who are leaving over this.
Sorry also to everyone who is just confused as hell. It’s clear that this is something that has been simmering for a long time, and trying to dredge up all the context and history or even to attempt to explain it is more than I have energy to deal with right now.
FWIW, that’s definitely not an argument I’d ever side with. I too get very upset when people think it’s okay to demand I have sex with them.
I’m confused about how an objection to the word “scrotosphere” and a comment about men being terrifying brought that argument to this thread though, though. I guess it has more to do with something that happened earlier.
Anyway, this is sad. :(
That’s okay Cloudia. You don’t have to explain anything. I’m sorry that people are leaving and I’m sorry that this has caused such a shit storm. Wherever you all go, I hope nothing but good things follow you.
@cassandrakitty
Thank you for comparing me to a fucking rapist. Even though I never advocated violating anyone’s boundaries and merely pointed out that attraction preferences can be rooted in transmisogyny (as well as any other kind of oppressive prejudice). Even though I eventually cleared up my position and you ended up agreeing with me and moving on.
Asshole.
By the last sentence of that first paragraph, I’m referring to the previous cotton ceiling shitstorm in the E-Day concert thread.
Wait, I thought that “female” was a sex and “woman” was a gender. Is “sex =/= gender” not the argument any more?
Shit, ninja’d by something way more serious than my semantic confusion.
So I googled cotton ceiling because I wasn’t quite sure what everyone was talking about. Than I was like, oh yeah I forgot about this shit. All I see is a TERF shit storm. Maybe I’m the shittiest lesbian in the world or maybe this work shop wasn’t a big deal? Were any lesbians other than TERFS losing their shit over this?