Is War Machine, the mixed martial arts fighter accused of brutally beating his ex, a Men’s Rights Activist?
The “hero” the Men’s Rights movement deserves?
If the Men’s Rights movement is looking for a celebrity endorser, I think I’ve found just the guy for them: the mixed martial arts fighter, and erstwhile porn actor, War Machine, currently sitting in jail on charges of brutally beating and attempting to kill his ex-girlfriend, porn star Christy Mack.
Men’s Rights activists should be able to look past these criminal charges; after all, as they remind us all the time, women are forever falsely accusing innocent men of all sorts of terrible things.
And in so many ways War Machine is perfect for them. An MMA fighter, he’s already only one letter away from being an MRA. A misogynistic asshole with rage issues, he’ll have no trouble fitting in with the Men’s Rights crowd. And, especialy important for a movement that has a lot of trouble getting any good PR, he’s a bit more comfortable on camera than the Paul Elams and Dean Esmays of the world, with experience on television (on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter: Team Hughes vs. Team Serra), and in seven films (albeit pornographic ones).
Best of all: he’ll need no ideological education from what A Voice for Men likes to call Fuck Shit Up University. War Machine – real name Jonathan Koppenhaver – is already an outspoken proponent of many of the Men’s Rights Movement’s core beliefs.
Consider these selections from a little Men’s Rights manifesto War Machine wrote a few years ago during a previous stint behind bars, serving time for felony assault after two bloody bar fights. His rant, which a friend posted to the internet, would fit right in with the sort of stuff we’ve seen regularly posted on the Men’s Rights subreddit, or The Spearhead, or A Voice for Men. I’ve bolded some of the Men’s Rightsiest bits:
The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America…
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant … NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! …
Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. …
And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to “play it safe.” They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’
If any of you have your Men’s Rights Bingo cards out, I’m guessing you might already be close to scoring a bingo. We’ve got a comparison to slavery that could have come straight from the pages of A Voice for Men, a marriage-is-death-to-male-dreams rant that could have been borrowed from any MGTOW forum, and an evo-psych-esque argument that men are the true risk-takers and the world’s real innovators.
And I don’t think War Machine would have much trouble with Paul Elam’s “Bash a Violent Bitch Month,” either.
[I]t’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering “Why in the hell do American men get married!?” … If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back … Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch!
In another online posting, War Machine touched on another Men’s Rights hobbyhorse, the notion that the justice system is stacked against men:
[L]ook at the prisons, they are FULL of MEN, not women. Are men “evil” and women not? Or do the laws target and attempt to restrict NATURAL MEN’S BEHAVIOR? How many of the HEROES in American history would avoid prison if they lived today? Davey Crockett? Thomas Jefferson? David Bowie? General Grant & General Lee? Shit, George Washington. … Laws target MEN and men’s behavior. Women want to bitch and cry about their rights and equality… LMAO! MEN are the ones locked away like animals, while women run free!
Someone might have to explain to War Machine that David Bowie is not actually a famous American HERO but a famously androgynous British musician who once recorded an album called “Heroes.” (Mr. Machine may be thinking of James Bowie, a well-known 19th century American frontiersman and slave trader, and the guy the Bowie Knife is named after.)
But other than that, he seems ready to go.
There is, of course, that whole attempted murder charge to deal with.
It’s true the Men’s Rights Movement has had few problems in the past rallying behind men with histories of violence. But War Machine might be a harder sell as a Men’s Rights hero. His alleged attack on Mack left her with a cracked rib, a ruptured liver, numerous broken bones, missing teeth and her eyes swollen shut. (See here for photos of her injuries; obviously this link is NSFW and could be triggering.)
While Mr. Machine denies attacking Mack, he joked to a TV host last year that if she were to leave him “I would just kill her” and get a tattoo saying “Rest In Peace” above the tattoo of her name he has on his neck.
And several hours after allegedly trying to murder her, War Machine tweeted this lovely message about his ex:
War Machine does seem to be at a low point in his life. Even aside from the charges he faces, and the time he seems likely to serve, his career in porn is almost certainly over. The “Alpha Male” clothing line he helped start wants nothing to do with him. Nobody but the prison system seems to want this guy.
In other words: Men’s Rights activists, this is your chance! War Machine may not be the, er, hero you want. But he’s certainly the hero you deserve.
Posted on August 21, 2014, in a voice for men, alpha males, antifeminism, domestic violence, entitlement, excusing abuse, incoherent rage, men created civilization, men invented everything, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, post contains sarcasm, reactionary bullshit, red pill, violence and tagged anti-feminism, antifeminism, christy mack, domestic violence, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, red pill, violence against women, war machine. Bookmark the permalink. 1,454 Comments.
Well I entirely missed this thread people keep alluding to. Perhaps I should try and find it, but I imagine it’s just the same stuff going round and round on hair trigger issues that obviously people won’t concede on.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to worry that people are harboring resentment or considering other people “evil bitches”. I know it’s hard not to worry about what people might be thinking but not expressing, especially considering how this situation seems now to have been smoldering for a while. But, let’s not borrow trouble. If that happens, it happens and we can sort it out.
We all have our limits and I respect the choices to walk away when they are reached. I think the world of all of you and will miss ever single voice that disappears from these threads. That said, I don’t email, Facebook, tweet or snail mail. I’m the worst at keeping in touch. So, goodbye friends. I’ll remember you and always hope the best for you. Take care.
Hopefully I don’t need to say this, but I am sad that Ally is gone. I hope she’ll be ok. Without sounding like some awful devils advocate* jackass I understand her point and also understand that she is very easily triggered, so while many can feel very comfortable here it isn’t a designated safe space.
Blah blah I dunno. Stupid wimmins with our hurt feefees.
*I originally wrote devils advocake. Mmmmmm.
@daintydougal. Yeah, I will miss Ally as well and I am in total agreement with hoping she is okay.
And now I feel I’m being flippant when there’s been accusations of transphobia and all sorts flying about. From my understanding some of this mess has come about due to different peoples ideas of what constitutes transphobia, which literally couldn’t be more messy if it fell in a very messy thing.
So sorry for stomping on anyone. I know these are hecks serious issues.
You know, saying shit like this doesn’t actually help any kind of constructive discussion move forward.
I don’t think anyone involved in this discussion is evil, but I also don’t appreciate this kind of unfair framing of disagreement and stating an opinion as “holding people hostage” and tirades and all that.
Cassandra — “Since you get what I’m trying to say could you/others maybe help me out a bit on this going forward?”
Yes.
As for being able to mix enthusiastic consent and trans-positive feminism, I don’t see a problem. Am I what people expect from either binary gender? Not really, no. Is rejecting dating me based on that any different than, idk, deciding you don’t want to date a smoker? (
Bad example maybe, since the latter can have health implications for you, I’m failing to come with a reason not to date me that’s common and not socially biased, so let’s go for an uncommon one — say you won’t date aquarists, you hate hearing us go on, and on, and on, about our fish. Well, sucks to be me then, and if aquarists were socially shunned then I think there’d be a case to be made for making social change, and hoping sexual change followed — not any individual’s preference, but the idea that, as a group, aquarists can’t be good partners. Makes easy sense like that, right? So, why is the solution to trans women not being considered attractive seen as asking cis lesbians to examine their preferences, instead of attacking media representations and general social views? Even if it wasn’t a matter of asking women, and women of a sexual minority at that, to change their sexual preferences, the idea that anyone can do that would make me go “huh?” — we already know gay man can’t turn straight, why should any other preference be different?
But I’m rambling, and have coffee to make and fish stuff to do (and a website to work on, well, two really, the Borg requires a bit of my brain). So, I’ll be off for now, but before I go, fish talk!
The axolotl tank is very nearly ready, just waiting for my Doctor Fosters order and my aquarium fan to show up, then it’s axolotl time! Tank’s set up, planted, filtration is all sorted — need to set up the CO2 for the plants, and move the plant light up here (it’s currently on my brine shrimp tank), but it’s painfully close to being axololt time! The gobies are doing great, hilarious little cuties, Puff is getting So Big, and getting on fine with them, and both the other tanks are doing fine (trying to count catfish is still harder than herding cats :) )
Ok, I lied. I have a cat in a fishbowl before I go, because this is the only way a living creature should be in a fishbowl — if it’s fuzzy and can get itself back out! (Or not fuzzy and can get back out, I don’t want to prevent geckos from exploring [I want a gecko, I can no haz gecko cuz not fish, the axololt only got the okay since they're fully aquatic])
http://www.funnykittensite.com/pictures/I_Has_A_Small_Jar.htm
Please train your new axolotl to dance. You know those little hands developed specifically to make “jazz hands”.
I thought the latter was what we (we, here, including Ally — who didn’t even bring this subject up here) were doing.
Here’s what she said:
(Emphasis mine.)
What is the disagreement?
As far as I’m concerned, there are no evil bitches here (except for the usual trolls — shut up, Woody!). Everyone is good folks, whether in perfect agreement on all points or not, and whether or not we all really understand what each other is trying to say. But I must confess, I am still bewildered by how all this escalated and went sideways. I’ll be on other threads from now on, but not this one, because it’s just too damn much to process, and I worry that I may have inadvertently caused some of that myself. So I’m removing myself from it. The last thing I want is to hurt anybody, or contribute to an existing hurt that I didn’t cause. Take care, everyone…and I really do hope to see ALL of you again.
cloudiah, I’ve tried to stay out of the specifics, but maybe that:
‘you don’t get to decide who you’ll have sex with’
is terrifyingly similar to
‘you need to look more closely at who you’ll have sex with’
I have now found that old thread people were talking about and to be honest disagree with Ally that not wanting to have sex with someone based on the colour of their skin is the same as not wanting to have sex with someone based on their genitals.
If someone doesn’t want to have sex with someone with a penis it’s really irrelevant if that person is a man or a woman.
Having said that I of course agree with Ally and have always believed that we need to be constantly questioning ourselves and trying to do better in things.
And yet, when people here point out that they have literally seen it used in this way, they’re compared to Cathy Brennan. I have seen people actually argue that “Cis queer women not wanting to fuck trans women is transmisogynistic.” I have literally seen people tell individual cis lesbians that if they don’t want anything to do with penises, even on women, they are contributing to trans women’s oppression and should reconsider where their preferences come from. Is this representative of the mainstream of trans thought? Of fucking course not. Do I think it’s what you beliefe? I really don’t. But it’s out there and I don’t think you have to be Cathy Brennan to think it’s fucking skeevy.
Thank you for saying so. I was afraid it was just me who felt that way.
I think defensive people are having their most private buttons pushed and responding in kind and no one will concede. Ally, as a trans woman is constantly alert for attacks to her status, the same way many cis women are after lifetimes of abuse and bullshit.
Well that makes no sense. Maybes I should go back to talking about butts.
Disagreement hasn’t been framed as hostage-taking. The fact that ONE person’s feelings have been paramount for so long to the extent those of others are readily thrown under the bus and if that person is stimulated in a manner that is at all negative, the whole forum is made to suffer, preventing meaningful discussion from occurring because goodness knows that may be triggering, is what I’ve described as holding the board hostage with one’s emotions. When one person’s feels are being used not only to silence those of others but to do so with the knowledge if there is pushback a meltdown will ensue, yes, people feel emotionally taken hostage and trapped.
WELL, I DISAGREE is not percieved as holding the board hostage by anyone.
My cis male boyfriend is singing along to Loretta Lynn in the other room. I think my love for him and my sadness that some people have only experienced the very worst in men is what lead to me questioning Ally’s words at the beginning of this thread. Damn his adorableness.
That’s the problem, emilygoddess – so many of us have been afraid to say so. We’re literally afraid of the emotional consequences because we’ve all been conditioned to behave in a very specific fashion lest we want fallout. That’s not right. One person’s feelings shouldn’t be upheld as of more importance to protect than those of others. People shouldn’t feel silenced and be actively fearful to express their feelings because they might negatively stimulate one person. That works out great for the person being catered to. It sucks for several others though.
Anyways, really glad to hear you’ve seen the same thing we have.
marinerachel. If you and everyone else are referring to Ally, I would really appreciate it if you’d just say so. This wandering around can only lead to more trouble.
Also, I need to know if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. I hate things being hidden and alluded to, especially if, like I think it is, it’s as clear as fucking day what the issues are.
All of this, with a side of being really skeeved out by people who want to turn not getting laid into an oppression issue (not that no one here has said this, but as Cassandra illustrated, that argument has been used on people – mainly women – before).
YES, we as a society should talk about who is considered “attractive” and who is considered “woman”, and so on, because both of those things are culturally determined, and falling outside those categories can make life harder for people. But when you start using terms like “cotton ceiling”, as though someone else’s underwear is a barrier to be overcome, you’re doing it wrong.
You have half-hour time zones? Neat.
Ok I haven’t even finished reading that other thread and I’m done with it. Now I see why people kept bringing it up. Also is that when Marie left?
I’m also not sure why the discussion keeps focusing on cis lesbians rather than on straight men. Aren’t the majority of trans women (like the majority of cis women) straight anyway? I don’t mean Ally specifically, because obviously as a lesbian she has a dog in that fight, but everywhere I’ve seen this conversation it’s been aimed at cis women (someone please correct me if I’m wrong!) and I think that’s what’s making some women so uncomfortable.
I’ve been wondering about Marie and Fade. I assumed we lost them over the suicide intervention debate.
I feel like I want to be on here more so I don’t miss stuff. There should be a round up every month!
Idk, they also both have a habit of just disappearing for awhile. Gods know I’ve done it enough myself too. But you might be right on that. Too bad, they’re awesome.
As for whether this conversation’s ever aimed at people besides cis women, not that I’ve seen either. For that matter, I’ve never seen us non-binaries on any side of it, besides various levels of frustration at the whole thing. Not aiming it at straight cis men does make a certain sense though, to a degree Ally was right — men can be terrifying, because they can be dangerous, particularly to trans women. So, compared to cis lesbians, they’re a far more dangerous group to try to question (about anything really, I’d come out of most of my various closets to a cis lesbian faster than to a straight man, the others, equal risk, in no case do I see her as more dangerous, so this could just be risk assessment)
Daintydougal — round up of cute? Hell yes! I don’t wanna miss Falconer’s twinsies! Stuff like this…idk how you’d even do it, besides to simply link to it as a sort of “if you regularly read the comments, you may want to see what happened here”.
Yeah, it was the interventions thread that made them leave. While I miss them, a LOT, I can’t agree with what they were saying and doing to other commenters in that thread.
Marie, Fade, if you yet lurk… I still love you both. I would be overjoyed to see your gravitars again.
I think you’ve nailed it here. Of course, straight men shouldn’t have to go outside of their sexual preferences either, but they’re never asked to. The sexual preferences of straight me are not only automatically accepted but catered to by every aspect of our society and media. Women are expected to give someone a chance if that person is nice enough or deserving enough. It’s definitely not a dynamic that should come up in social justice/progressive communities. I don’t think Ally was making that problematic argument in this thread but I do remember her arguments edging uncomfortably close to that in the other thread. I guess until this thread I didn’t realize there was still simmering resentments though.
Yes and this might be mean to say, but I think it’s for the best. In that thread they were implying (or maybe even outright saying. I don’t remember) that Robert was a bad parent for getting his son help. That really made me angry.
The thing is, I keep thinking, I’m not going to read the comments anymore, because I don’t want to get caught up in drama, but then I always do, cos there’s so often great stuff. But then something like this thread happens, where I was ‘involved’ at the beginning, but it turns out this thread has basically already happened but nothing was resolved. If you only looked at the threads sporadically you’d be like, where’s hellkell, and cassandra and ally and kittehs etc. I dunno. Even people that lurk will miss them.
I just wish people would call a spade a fucking spade. (I also wish racists hadn’t hijacked that saying)
WWTH, they were outright saying what he was doing was bad, and strongly implying he was an awful parent. While I know it was pain talking, that was way beyond the pale.
Cassandra, I never thanked you and Kittehs for what you did in that thread. It had to be called out there, and it was going to be ugly no matter how it happened.
So, if you lurk… Thanks for that.
I’m withdrawing from this thread permanently because I’m having some serious conflicting feelings here. I don’t think anyone here is evil and I’m sorry for all the pain you all have endured. I’m sorry for contributing to it, because I’m sure I did. I’m sorry I made any of you feel pain. I hope nothing but good things follow the people who leave this site. I hope this community can continue to flourish, even though it will never be the same again.
One last video.
The last comment I left on this thread was reactive, and after some thought, I regret it. The idea that I would be encouraging sexual coercion, particularly of girls and young women, is appalling to me, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be true.
I want to take seriously the fact that my beliefs would make people feel unsafe, particularly people I deeply like and feel connected to — Cassandra, if you’re reading, I don’t know if I have ever told you how instrumental your example has been as I have learned to love and respect myself as a bisexual woman.
Critically looking at myself and what I like has been a really positive experience for me. I can see how some of my sexual interests have been shaped by shame that I am a woman who has sexual urges and who enjoys sex. It has allowed me to recognize that I am uncomfortable with certain acts because I’ve formed a sense of them as obligations, not mutually-pleasurable activities that I am free to stop at any time. I still don’t engage in those acts (except for very rarely, when I am sure I want to), but exploring that has helped me articulate that women are not obligated to do certain things.
But that is a private process that I’ve entered into on my own, and at a time when I am not looking for a partner. I don’t know if I fully considered how these sorts of thoughts could be used to manipulate or coerce single or polyamorous people.
i haven’t been commenting here much lately, and I’ve been half a day behind in this thread since it got contentious, so I’m just now caught up. I’m so sad about how this happened, but I don’t really feel good about commenting here anymore either. I’ll be emailing two or three of you this evening when I get a chance.
This thread looks like it died out yesterday, but I have a few points that I feel need to be made and just haven’t been in the right headspace to do it, for various reasons.
The original topic of the post is extremely triggering to me. Argenti may still have the pics that I sent zir for safekeeping and Pecunium and LBT may have seen them too. A year ago, I had an extremely dangerous, extremely abusive ex that could have easily put me in the same position as Christy Mack. I had no viable way to get out, except to rely on certain people who have shown themselves to be highly unreliable in the past.
I am out of the situation, have dealt with the unreliable people and have a relatively safe situation now. However, hearing about this messes me up, triggers me to no end and, quite often, I have to step out of the discussion or risk lashing out. Even though its been 6 months since I’ve seen my ex, the pain can be very acute when I’m triggered. I didn’t post or even lurk here for a while because of it.
Perhaps it’s the same with some other posters here. However, even when triggered, it’s important to know when to step out of the conversation, rather than to insist that everyone dons the kid gloves. While I hope that we all wish to be inclusive of non troll posters and respectful of others, this is clearly not a safe space. This is also a space populated by a variety of diverse people who have their individual reasons for being here, their own pasts, trauma and triggers. If anyone is unable to allow others their opinions, formed from their own indivudual experiences, or respectfully disagree, this is not a safe space for them, just as it was not a safe space for me, while dealing with the fallout of my abuse. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I don’t know how else to say it.
I will not address the issue of sexual inclusiveness regarding trans people, as it’s been hashed out by posters who are much more in touch with the issue.
What I will say is that I genuinely value and respect everyone who posts here. This blog has helped me in so many ways and taught me so much. When I found this blog, I had no idea that a sexual spectrum was a thing, that some people don’t fit into the male or female gender binary, or even what the term queer even meant. I thought that multuple personality disorder was a disease and that everybody can only have one to be normal. The only experience I’d ever had with a trans* person was what I saw on tv.
I learned and grew so much as a person because of all of the different individuals here, who’s comments enlightened me, expanded my incredibly narrow view of life and corrected me multuple times, explaining why my comments or ideas maybe weren’t the best. Not only have I become more accepting and understanding of others, but I’ve destroyed a lot of destructive ideas about myself, explored more about who I am and how the world works outside of my tiny sphere of experience.
And, I had no idea how caring, compassionate and truly awesome peopke could be. When I was trying desperately to escape my abuser, posters here did everything they could to help and support me through it, as the shelter system was too overloaded to help.
So, to everyone, regardless of which side of whatever debate, thank you. Thank you for sharing your perspectives and lives in a not safe space and allowing others the chance to learn and grow. Thank you for being active activists who will help others in need. And thank you to David for providing the venue for all of this to happen.
Where ever we all end up going, I’m grateful that our paths have crossed.
@lindwormlady – Just to say I quite appreciated your candour in this thread. At about the same time that the E-day thread was going, I was following a discussion about how a cis gay man was calling out (in an irritating sort of Real Gay Men Would way) other cis gay men who had trans partners but wouldn’t expand beyond the usual gay repertoire.
PS: I sincerely thought that today was the 26th.
And I also apologize if my wording is a bit off. I’ve had an exhausting month and am operating on 3 hours of sleep.
This is one of the things I meant when I said cassandrakitty has always had the right of it. In the original thread, where the argument seemed to be that people who were not sexually attracted to people of other races were being racist, I’m pretty sure I was on the wrong side of that. As a mostly-ace person, I have to work to be sexually attracted to anybody, and I just Did. Not. Get cassandrakitty’s argument for the longest time.
When I did, I was pretty appalled with myself.
I am finding, in a lot of on-line social justice communities, more and more of this policing and judgement. Oh, if you don’t open yourself to being attracted to that person, you’re racist, or transphobic, or homophobic. Oh, if you wear a bindi (even at the suggestion of an Indian person), you’re being appropriative.
And I do think it’s very easy to slide from examining my own prejudices with a view to being a better human being, to expecting that everyone else ignore their own reality, regardless of how their preferences and attractions came about, in order to be more fair to others.
I also think that Ally is interacting with real-life trans people for the first time away from her abusive father. She may be going through that shiny-new-enthusastic-evangelistic phase. I do appreciate it when she points out that I’m using hurtful words unthinkingly.
However, I’m not a trans activist. Wanting to be supportive, and wanting to not be an asshole to marginalized people, does not mean I’m able or willing to take up the whole fight on behalf of marginalized people.
As we tell the trolls all the time, this site is for mocking misogyny. We’ve formed a really supportive community, but I don’t think it’s fair to co-opt the community for specific causes, even if they’re important, and even if they’re closely related to mocking misogyny.
Nova, just so you know, I do still have your photos, and I don’t think I shared them with pecunium even. And I am so so glad you’re free of your ex.
Everyone here who’s stepping off WWTH but is part of the Borg, please feel free to email me if you have anything Borg related to say, or, really, anything to say. You have my email, so don’t be strangers!
In completely random things, I hate mosquitoes. I love doing my coding outside, and R’s aunt has a lovely porch with an electrical outlet so he and I can work out there and not devolve into cleaning the living room and playing with wind up lobsters (don’t ask). But dear gods, am I a mosquito magnet! I need a trained pet bat, though I guess a small reptile would make more sense huh? (You know, like pirates have parrots? Well, parrots don’t eat mosquitoes)
Argenti:
That’s misandrous to male mosquitoes everywhere. It’s really only female mosquitoes who want to suck your blood. The males just pollinate grass and help the female mosquitoes make more tiny little mosquitoes to suck your blood and pollinate your grasses…
… okay, never mind. Looking forward to mosquitoes hibernating here in a couple months.
No-see-ums are even worse.
Hi, Argenti!
Daintydougal:
Amusingly, I once had this feeling while working with a literal spade. There were some Finns and a couple Russians talking in English, someone didn’t know the tool’s name so they used the Finnish name, and nobody else “corrected” it for politeness reasons :)
Hi back at you Arctic Ape!
contrapangloss — we don’t seem to get them around here, certainly not like the mosquitoes anyways, and they don’t find me as delicious as mosquitoes do anyways. The mosquitoes are bad enough that my carnivores got some live larvae when I left some seashells to soak for a few days before scrubbing them and goddamnit I got to confirm there were mosquitoes in the house! Though, Puff thought they were the best thing ever, one of the gobies even sucked one down somehow, damned things are nearly as big as the gobies are!
I got my Doctor Foster’s order today btw, so I’m hoping to set up the last of the axolotl tank once it cool down some and I can bear the thought of moving.
Ps, spend a week plus topping out at like 78, I think maybe I can get the axolotl before the fan comes in and POOF, it’s 82 in my tanks and feels more like 90 out of them. Oh well, I should have the fan set up once I can cut the metal screen without perishing at the thought of tools. (Don’t worry, I have mesh screen I’m going to patch the gap with so no little fingers can get sliced)
Wow, I go on vacation for a week, and the commentariat implodes! :(
Cassandrakitty, kittyserf, hellkell, LBT, & cloudiah were the people whose comments made me feel thrilled to have found this blog several years ago. I’m sad that this issue is dividing up my fav people (not all of whom I’ve mentioned here, I was just reminded of who I first read & liked). Unfortunately I’m probably one of the evil people (well, it is on my gravatar), so after this post I’m probably go back to lurking, and see who’s actually here when the dust settles. Then I’ll know if I’m welcome here too.
Argenti wrote:
I think that’s rooted in the fact that gender makes no fucking sense to us.
@Cassandrakitty,
I was trying to understand what the whole “cotton ceiling” was, but I’ve made up my mind now, and that^ is why. I can’t promise I’ll be around often enough, but when I am, I’ll happily back you up on that point.
I’m straight, myself, and I have to say one of the things that drove me away from one radfem space I was in was that one lady started going on about how female heterosexuality was actually bullshit. When I said otherwise, she told me there was nothing a man could do that a dildo couldn’t. Obviously I have straight privilege and plenty mainstream approval to back up me being attracted to men, but even still it was condescending and dismissive for her to claim my attraction didn’t exist. I mean, she was supposed to be on my side. I know it’s even worse for LBGA people to be told shit like that.
People can’t help who they’re attracted to. Attraction can change over time. Mainstream media and culture can change that causes new generations to grow up with different attractions, but you can’t put it on a group of individuals (especially a group that’s oppressed) to change their attraction just because another group (even if that group is also oppressed) is finding it hard to get sex. It’s just too reminiscent of omega/beta/incel type bullshit, even if the intent isn’t the same.
TBoggs has written about this on Raw Story with a nod to David. In the comments, TBoggs said:
First, count me in as one of those selfish people who are selfishly hoping that those who are leaving would reconsider, or at least, just make it a temporary break. But I know that people have to do what is best for themselves and take care of themselves. So, if any of you are still lurking: You will all be deeply, deeply missed.
Cassandrakitty, you in particular I’ve looked to as a mentor. You always have a way of putting things that cuts through all the bullshit and gets to the heart of the matter.
marinerachel and hellkell, I’m going to miss your snark so much. All the best to both of you.
kitteh, I hope you ultimately decide to say, because I don’t know what this place would be without you!
And Ally, if your still lurking, I’m disagreeing with some if the stuff you’ve said here, but I also still think you are incredibly smart and strong young woman and I wish you the best also.
If I’m parsing this correctly, the problem here is that there’s a world of difference between saying, “(1)Cis lesbian women who refuse to sleep with trans lesbian women are transmisogynistic” and “(2)”That some cis lesbian women won’t consider trans lesbian women as sexual partners is indicative of trans lesbian women not being seen as ‘real women’ or ‘real women,'” and “(3)Trans people are seen as gross unfuckable freaks and misgendered by the culture in which we live, and this is wrong and should be fought against.” The first statement is pure ooginess, because, no, people get to decide who they will or will not sleep with, and their reasons for not sleeping with someone should never be up for debate. Ever. Even if we don’t like the reasons why and we even if the reason why comes from prejudice. We live in a rape culture in which women are not seen as sexual agents and their “no’s” are not respected. I see respecting women’s “no’s” and their sexual agency as a central tenant if feminism that should be up for debate. The third sentence up there is true. It is speaking to a wider societal problem and how society views trans people rather than focusing on certain people’s or a certain groups sexual preferences. The second sentence is where it seems to me the current conflict is being sparked by. Because, yes, it is a wrong thing for lesbian trans women not to be seen as “real women” or “real lesbians.” But it is also a wrong thing, a very wrong thing, to lay that at the feet if cis lesbian women and expect them to examine their sexual preferences. And I think that’s the reason why people are objecting to this.
So now I’m rambling, but I’m glad this discussion happened/is happening, because I personally think letting stuff like this fester is a bad idea and just ends up blowing up later.
Argenti, whenever you mention your dear little neotenous amphibians, I remember the parody poem from MAD magazine, “I wandered lonely as a clod”. I can’t link, but search for mad axolotl poem and it should come up.
Also, I am among the selfish people who wish we were all getting along like peasants at a wedding* My sincere hopes for everyone involved to reach their highest good, especially if it involves continuing to feel comfortable here. I will continue to read and post myself, as long as I don’t make anyone uncomfortable by doing so.
*Not intended as classist, I’ve just always liked that expression.
So I’ve managed to calm down completely and I have to agree that this conversation was going into a sex critical area. That does bother me. To be frank the name ‘cotton ceiling’ does bother me, and for the women who ran the work shop that was shitty terminology on their part. This topic was distressing for a lot of people. For me it was distressing because I was afraid TERF ideas were invading this community, but on closer inspection there are legitimate criticisms of that work shop. It was hard to see that through my own distress and anger. It’s one thing to have a conversation about how transmisogyny affects beauty ideals and one thing to discuss how queer trans women can navigate their own relationships. It’s quite another to suggest that a cis queer woman is transmisogynist for not having sexual relationships with a trans woman or not consenting to certain sexual acts. That’s not right. I also understand that it’s as common as sunlight hitting my skin for queer women to have their sexuality policed. That’s part of why I reacted so strongly, because I’ve been policed.
However, it was callous of me to put my own personal feelings above those of other queer women. I’m pretty sure that’s how I came off. I know I said earlier that I would disengage permanently, but I need to grow the fuck up. This is my problem too, and I do feel that this discussion is valuable. I also want to apologize again for making anyone feel unsafe.
@DLG Thank you, but I feel like I fucked up in this thread. I might have seemed calm or polite, but I was honestly distressed and I’m sure that came out. I’m sure that came out and I hurt other people in the process.
In my opinion, everyone here (including Ally) agreed that the first two topics were a-okay, and that the last topic is wrong, wrong, wrong. Both here, and in the original thread where this was discussed.(If you read through to the end, you’ll see that Ally realized she was stating things poorly, and in ways that didn’t reflect her actual position, so she apologized and clarified her position.)
Certainly, if I’ve said anything that implies support for a different position, I apologize for that.
“(Soon to be) dear little neotenous amphibian” — I’m on break between hoods, the axolotl mesh cover is all cut and patched with mesh with a gap just big enough for the various airline tubes and such. Next up…*drum roll* I GOT AN LED LIGHT FOR THE BIG TANK!! That hood has driven me up a wall daily for over a year now, it just refuses to simply turn on, flickers, dies, flickers, dies, repeat, seem to stay on, die…etc. tried replacing the ballast (the bulb was replaced when I moved back here) — no luck, but a hood that size was just as expensive as switching to glass and LEDs…NO MORE TANK BULB DRAMA!
Yes, I am this excited over LEDs. Yes, I am avoiding the topic at hand by talking about aquatic critters. No, I have no intention of ever changing my ways, I am, after all, part fish.
Puddlegum — good point! And me? I got “it’s a keeper!” when I was born, always been part fish :)
QI, then back to fish work for me!
Argenti, I’m perfectly happy that you are part fish. I’m very excited for your axolotl, though.
Little salamanders are adorable.
Oh sweet fuck what the hell is going on?!? I’ve been looking forward to coming back for so long and I get here to find that half the people whose voices I was missing so much are leaving? I just tuned in and ended up on this thread and I’ve been sobbing as I read things spiraling down. I have no words, except to say that I will feel bereft not to hear from the people who are leaving, and I hope to manage a connection to those of you who are leaving because thinking of you, I’m trying not to be dramatic, but I mean this in all perfect honesty, keeping your voices in my head, some of your turns of phrase and jokes and perspectives, it’s kept me going at a time when each moment feels almost unbearable.
I once read what was actually a pretty compelling defense of political lesbianism – until she got to the point where, while addressing the question of “what if I’m not attracted to women?”, she basically said that the idea of women desiring sex was a patriarchal lie. She did it in the second person, too, because telling your readers what they do and don’t experience is sure to win them over.
Yes, thank you. I know Cathy Brennan is living in a land of paranoid fantasy, and I don’t think a 7-person conference was worth turning into an international meme. But I also don’t think referring to people’s (cotton) underwear as a “barrier” to “overcome” was a good choice or words on the part of the organizers.
And the fear of that label is exactly why a lot of people felt they couldn’t object.
I don’t think anyone here has ever supported the notion of pressuring women to examine their preferences. At this point we’re discussing the broader conversation as we’ve seen it play out elsewhere.
School started for the daughter, and then I had a week of nocturnal crises that left me a hausfrau zombie, so I wasn’t keeping up with most of the threads. I spent snatches of the day reading this one, and I just now finished.
Damn.
I’ve typed and erased about five or six different comments, and I just can’t find the words for what I want to say. I’m so, so sorry to see everyone going, be it short-term or for good. I think WHTM will be a lot poorer for losing you. I’ve only been actively commenting for a few months, but I was a long-time lurker and I’ve greatly enjoyed what everyone has brought to the table.
This has just wiped me out. I think I’m going to do as Puddleglum and keep quiet for a bit until I’ve stopped reeling.
Contrapangloss — me too! I’m debating if I want to get it tomorrow, or what. I mean, the tank is set up, but it hit nearly 90 today I think I maybe better test my cooling system before I risk it. I’m thrilled though, and I already have frozen fish food sized fish for it, and most of the recommended pellets are also loach food, and already in stock at Argenti Aquarium anyways :) (lol, this is, if you count the snails and brine shrimp, tank number 6…and R keeps trying to talk me into a reef tank, to which I say — you pay for it, and set it up at your house, and I will happily maintain it…but I’m not dumping that kind of money into a tank here when I have a few species tanks in mind and No More Room)
Cooling system test. Your adorable little buddy should be able to be at the right temp.
You have no idea how excited I am about your salamander. Totally living vicariously through you lot talking about pets. I can’t have pets of my own ’til I have a stable non-fire department home, and I won’t get to go home and visit mine (aka my parents pups) until December.
Your salamander will be so adorable! And the tank sounds like he or she or xie will be a happy, very happy little amphibian when they get settled in.
:)
I’ve been kind of in and out a lot and haven’t read all the comments on all the threads. I was very confused by what happened on this one mostly because I missed the discussion in the original thread. I agree with Alex. People can’t help who they’re attracted to and no one has the right to tell anyone they ‘ought’ to be attracted to anyone else because reasons.
I haven’t been here very long, but I really love the comments and posts on this blog. I hope (for selfish reasons) most of you don’t go or don’t go for long. I don’t think I know anyone well enough to email, but I enjoy your perspectives and snark (hellkell and Cassandrakitty are especially adept at this). I appreciate Kitteh and her thoughtfulness. Marinerachel has some excellent comments as well. I’ve enjoyed many of Ally’s posts too. I don’t have much else to add. It is totally up to you if you stay or go and you certainly have that right, especially if you feel unwelcome or unwanted. For what it’s worth, I consider your presence to be an asset to the community. I wish I could make you feel welcome and valued.
Much appreciated, Argenti. I did manage to get my computer out when I left, so my copies are safe. Not that I need them anymore. He was prosecuted for DV assault and there’s a criminal no contact order. If he comes near me, just that is enough for him to go back to jail. Feel free to delete. As soon as I fix my computer, I’ll be doing the same.
“Cis queer women not wanting to fuck trans women is transmisogynistic.”
Bearing in mind that was never what Ally actually said.
So, as a trans lesbian, I think I know where that idea is coming from. I’ve seen it too, and I cringe a little, because I think “well, no, we’re all entitled to sexual autonomy.” So I want to offer what seems to make sense from my perspective, bearing in mind that not all of this will interact with every trans person the same way:
1) We have significantly reduced dating pools, regardless of who we’re attracted to.
2) We’re much more likely to come with crippling body image issues and the depression that is co-morbid to them, which is First Date Repellent if I’ve ever seen it.
3) Lesbians are defined by same-sex attraction, and…
4) We hate our own genitals, so being rejected on those grounds “twists the knife,” so to speak. It reminds us, or me at least, of my self-hate, and makes me feel like my lesbianism is being withheld or revoked–even though I’m logically aware that there are no bouncers blocking access to the lesbian club, regardless of what Brennan or Dworkin believe, and a cis lesbian wouldn’t stop being a lesbian just because she can’t get laid. And I suspect a similar mode of thinking is what motivates the angry dudebros who aren’t getting laid either–their sexuality is a component of their self-esteem that is going unvalidated.
That’s not to say the feelings are constructive, or ethically sound. It’s certainly not the responsibility of anyone to validate anyone else through sexual acts. But the frustration of being put down for that fucking flap of skin, that gross mistake of nature you had no control over, time and time again, constantly being reminded that it’s there every time you’re misgendered, or socially snubbed as a lesbian, or lose your job and your security nets ’cause your boss is “weirded out,” or find out your close friends are transphobic and end up losing them, and top it off by skinning yourself shaving because you’re trying to dig out the gristle on your chin–it builds up a lot of frustration. And if we can pin it on one thing, well, that just tickles our evolutionary baggage back when antagonizing another tribe meant survival.
If transmisogyny didn’t exist, would I have a larger dating pool? Probably. But it does exist, as does misogyny, racism, ableism, etc. And we are all combined products of biology and upbringing… to say that a prevalent component of our culture has not coloured our perception of people is to severely underestimate what the human brain is capable of absorbing. But the precise mechanics of that are not well understood, and until they are, blanket statements like the above are neither useful nor accurate. The truth is probably closer to “some people who can enjoy/tolerate gender variance are probably swung away from it by a culture that stigmatizes gender variance” but that’s a lot more syllables and can’t fit on a slogan sign. It’s not true for all lesbians, but I think the concession the transfolk are gunning for here is that it probably accounts for *a few* cases, occurring at currently unknown frequencies, and they’re especially painful for people whose egos have been obliterated forwards and backwards.
Such a concession is NOT a demand for you to fuck us, but rather an attempt to mitigate the damage done to lesbian solidarity (imaginary, self-fulfilling, or otherwise) by the god damn penises we happen to have. Capiche?
I hope that makes sense. I’m going to bed.
I see it every day on Tumblr. Every day.
Argenti, you must get the axolotl post-haste because you said you would give me one of the babies.
@ mildlymagnificent
Yeah, you’re right, it should be as simple “no is a complete sentence”, but the problem is that this specific kind of “no but! have you considered a and b and also by the way you’re kind of a horrible person if you have this preference that you have, not that I’m saying that you can’t have that preference, but…” has been going on within queer circles for quite some time, and it seems to be escalating rather than people backing off and just letting everyone have whatever preferences they have. I’m concerned because the people worst impacted so far are young lesbians, who can be seen all over sites like Tumblr asking questions like “OK, so I’ve examined and all that, and I’m still just not sexually attracted to women who have penises, is that OK?” and the response they’re getting is mostly “LOL that makes you a transmisogynist, you’re gross, don’t talk to me”. Which, hey, people can feel however they want about other people’s preferences, but can we seriously not see how cruel and manipulative a thing that is to do to young women? I’ve seen rape victims told that PTSD from rape trauma isn’t a valid reason for not wanting to sleep with people with penises. This is really, really not OK.
And no, I’m not and never was saying that Ally was a rapist ffs. What I’m saying is that, in addition to all the above, framing this issue this way gives the actual predators (who exist within every community and every demographic) social license to operate. And that, also, is not OK.
Also, on the issue of why this argument is never aimed at straight men, yes, definitely fear may be part of that, because the risk of a physically violent response is higher. However, notice how in the other thread there were lots of people arguing against the points I and others have been making here and insisting again and again that, well, preferences are partially shaped by society, so why not examine? You really should. On and on in an endless loop of social pressure which is partly based on the assumption that women’s sexuality is more fluid than men’s, which is a. misogynistic as hell and b. a crock of shit.
And then Shadow came in and stated that he isn’t interested in having sex with anyone with a penis either, no matter how pretty he might otherwise think they are, and what happened? Nobody tried the “yeah but socialization and you should examine if you’re a good person” argument on him. Did anyone think Shadow was going to lash out physically? No, that’s ridiculous, we know him better than that. But men get to just have whatever sexual preferences they have without this constant picking and social pressure to mold their sexuality around other people’s needs and attempt to chip away at their boundaries.
And that, folks, is misogyny in action. Not Shadow, he did nothing wrong, the responses he got versus the responses the women saying the same things got. That’s why I was, and am, angry about how all this is playing out here.
Okay, by now I’ve written and deleted so much text trying to figure out exactly why I am so distressed by all of this that I may have written more than I did for my master’s thesis. I confess that I am more than a little shocked at how quickly everything escalated, but more than that I am stunned? horrified? nauseated? at how much anger, suspicion and bile got flung around so quickly, particularly as it seemed to be flung at people with a long history of demonstrated good will.
I know that some folks maybe want to leave this behind and move on as quickly as possible, but I just can’t. Maybe I’m in the wrong, it wouldn’t be the first time. Maybe my comments are unhelpful and out of place, again, it wouldn’t be the first time, and if so, David or kittehs or emilygoddess can feel free to purge the entire herd of teal deer, but here goes…
I’ve read through this thread a couple of times now, and I can’t tell whether adding something would be a good idea or no. I have strong feelings, but I’ve also been away for quite a bit and even before then I wasn’t exactly a regular, so I’m just not sure that anything I say could be of value, but I guess I need to say this and see what happens to see if I feel comfortable with where things are.
I will say, just in case she is out there reading, that I admire and value and wish the best for Ally, and that she will always be in my thoughts. I have deeply valued her perspective, and (especially as someone who enjoys engaging with theory) her close reading on many issues.
Let me be clear on the overt points that I’m on board with not using ‘scrotosphere’ because I get the anti argument and while I personally agree with the ‘vulvosphere’ framing (argh, whose was that? mai branez, they iz borked), I certainly won’t put my feelings ahead of someone who feels denigrated by that use. And I’m also perfectly willing to sotto voce my “not all men” response to “men are fucking terrifying” up there, precisely because I know that yes, all transfolk have legitimate fear based on real clear and present dangers. On both of those points, I would have been called to examine what I was doing and thinking, and find myself in agreement with her, and I would have changed my behavior. This opportunity is one of the reasons I have so deeply valued this community.
However (and I wish I had been here to say this in the moment, though I can’t imagine it would have helped, and even now I am unsure whether there is any value to posting now) I have the strong sense that none of this was really about those points, at least not completely.
I am profoundly uncomfortable with the way Ally framed the pushback against some of her statements and especially the way she insisted that intent doesn’t matter, while at the same time also repeatedly focusing on imputing extremely negative (ie transmisogynist) motives to those who disagreed with her.
Yes, cloudiah, she did state that no one should be coerced via shame. However, she also went from
which I read as pretty uncontroversial here, even when you swap in ‘transphobic’, to
and kept returning to the assertion of bias as a response to pushback for basically everything else she said.
To the best of my recollection, everyone has faced pushback at one time or another, even David, who (one would tend to think) could have a legitimate claim to being the final arbiter of what is published under his URL. The reflexive “you’re all just man-hating b*tchez” isn’t acceptable as a response to that pushback, so why is a reflexive accusation of transmisogyny (especially on the part of long time commenters with a demonstrated history of good interaction and support) and the threat of being classified as a TERF? How is this not a silencing tactic?
When I see something like
I find it hard to read that as anything other than an inability to countenance dissent, no matter how honest and genuine its basis. Yes, I do agree that Ally speaks from an experience that few of us here completely inhabit, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the framing of dissent as a lack of insight or understanding, a lack of patience with dissident opinions, or a reflexive (‘automatic’) disagreement, especially on the part of folks who have carefully articulated and supported reasonings behind their disagreement and who have also repeatedly and fulsomely demonstrated that they are good allies.
Because this sounds right and good
but it comes immediately after this
which certainly does sound like “you don’t have to agree with me, but you’d better not disagree because I will always know better (even when I don’t).” We all speak from the bubble of our perspective and we all think that we are 1. completely clear in all of our statements and 2. pretty much always not only correct but justified and virtuous in our correctness. What Ally was calling for, repeatedly if sometimes partially subtextually, was not that disagreement be phrased less accusatively or more constructively (both of which would have made sense, as it could easily have felt like a dogpile from the perspective of being on the bottom), but that hers be respected as the only possible acceptable perspective.
Because as nauseated as I am by the whole “cotton ceiling” debate as framed by the TERFs
well, it rankles. Because “I’m not saying your lack of sexual attraction *IS* bigoted, I’m just saying that it could be” isn’t any better really, it’s still an attempt to police the correctness of other’s (primarily other women’s) sexuality. And because the presence of transmisogynistic bias in attraction (or the lack thereof) was insisted on again and again and again and again in this thread, and it isn’t just a straw man assertion when people are very much using the assertion of subconscious bias and bigotry as a means of coercion (sometimes, as cassandrakitty pointed out, for purely sexual reasons and in other cases simply to silence disagreement).
And, furthermore, a queer woman should know that using the word ‘preferences’ for attraction, as for identity, is highly problematic. Sexual attraction is not like taste; it is not a marker of educated sensibility or a learned recognition and appreciation of what is socially valued. It’s not like choosing Mozart over Debussy or Gainsborough over Duchamp, Goya or Breton. It’s imprecise and can be messy and disruptive and impolitic and yes, socially inflected.
But, ultimately, this is not just about an academic notation of the possibility that underlying social forces can influence attraction, and I’m not convinced, per coffee, that a negotiation and concession of some amount of transmisogyny at play in the complex constellation of forces at work in sexual attraction would suffice or indeed do anything but produce further fracture and wounding, especially as lesbians (and those of us who are bi) already experience an enormous amount of pressure to ‘correct’ the scope of our attraction. Such pressure can only be perceived as deeply, achingly personal, and no amount of bracketing can wave away the attack embedded within. And despite all of Ally’s assertions that her comments were solely about the notion, theoretical possibility, of transmisogynistic bias, there is no eliding the fact that she was also, at the very same time, personalizing all dissent and invalidating it based purely on her authority as a transwoman.
TL;DR, maybe I’m wrong and what I need to do is just sit here in my wrongness and be wrong and get used to it. Again, it wouldn’t be the first time.
I don’t think Ally, or anyone here, said any other person should be coerced or shamed into being interested in having sex with someone they aren’t interested in having sex with, or doing anything they don’t want to do sexually. In fact, people were pretty clear that that wasn’t what they were arguing. Yet somehow it keeps coming up.
I know people on one side feel like they are unfairly being accused of being transphobic/transmisogynistic; can you not see that people on the other side are being unfairly accused of being coercive/rapey, even though they’re not talking about individual choices but societal bias, and its effects?
Maybe it’s just not possible to have this conversation. I continue to think that if we can be both kind and fair, the discussion is possible, but I no longer believe it’s possible to have here. :-(
I’m going to sleep.
@gillyrosebee
I agree and wrote something in support of what you wrote but after cloudiah’s comment, maybe I’d better shut up. I saved it just in case.
I feel like there’s an elephant in the room. People are beginning to poke at the underlying issues a bit but it’s not safe enough to address in a straightforward manner in case Ally is reading.
@cloudiah
It goes way beyond the point you mentioned.
Cloudiah, even if we assume good intentions, the idea is still coercive and not OK.
@ Aunt Alias
Ugh, this is exactly what’s making me want to bail. You have something to say, there are other people who want to read it, but nope, apparently that’s not allowed.
So there was some integral concept that I was missing, and the entire conversation was about something other than what I was actually reading.
Thank you, world. That helps clear it all up and make me much, much less terribly confused at it all.
Anyhow, I’m with @gillyrosebee. That’s essentially what I didn’t say, but wanted to. Good thing no one can see all the really snarky stuff I decided to just delete, written under the influence of painkillers and sleep deprivation.
Also, apparently I have more feels. Can I just say how incredibly frustrating it is to see straight women telling queer women that we should be centering this discussion on whether or not Ally screwed up (irrelevant to at least part of the conversation, since Ally did not come up with the idea that started this mess, that idea is being promoted all over the place), when at least some of us are attempting to have a conversation about the actual idea?