Is War Machine, the mixed martial arts fighter accused of brutally beating his ex, a Men’s Rights Activist?
The “hero” the Men’s Rights movement deserves?
If the Men’s Rights movement is looking for a celebrity endorser, I think I’ve found just the guy for them: the mixed martial arts fighter, and erstwhile porn actor, War Machine, currently sitting in jail on charges of brutally beating and attempting to kill his ex-girlfriend, porn star Christy Mack.
Men’s Rights activists should be able to look past these criminal charges; after all, as they remind us all the time, women are forever falsely accusing innocent men of all sorts of terrible things.
And in so many ways War Machine is perfect for them. An MMA fighter, he’s already only one letter away from being an MRA. A misogynistic asshole with rage issues, he’ll have no trouble fitting in with the Men’s Rights crowd. And, especialy important for a movement that has a lot of trouble getting any good PR, he’s a bit more comfortable on camera than the Paul Elams and Dean Esmays of the world, with experience on television (on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter: Team Hughes vs. Team Serra), and in seven films (albeit pornographic ones).
Best of all: he’ll need no ideological education from what A Voice for Men likes to call Fuck Shit Up University. War Machine – real name Jonathan Koppenhaver – is already an outspoken proponent of many of the Men’s Rights Movement’s core beliefs.
Consider these selections from a little Men’s Rights manifesto War Machine wrote a few years ago during a previous stint behind bars, serving time for felony assault after two bloody bar fights. His rant, which a friend posted to the internet, would fit right in with the sort of stuff we’ve seen regularly posted on the Men’s Rights subreddit, or The Spearhead, or A Voice for Men. I’ve bolded some of the Men’s Rightsiest bits:
The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America…
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant … NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! …
Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. …
And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to “play it safe.” They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’
If any of you have your Men’s Rights Bingo cards out, I’m guessing you might already be close to scoring a bingo. We’ve got a comparison to slavery that could have come straight from the pages of A Voice for Men, a marriage-is-death-to-male-dreams rant that could have been borrowed from any MGTOW forum, and an evo-psych-esque argument that men are the true risk-takers and the world’s real innovators.
And I don’t think War Machine would have much trouble with Paul Elam’s “Bash a Violent Bitch Month,” either.
[I]t’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering “Why in the hell do American men get married!?” … If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back … Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch!
In another online posting, War Machine touched on another Men’s Rights hobbyhorse, the notion that the justice system is stacked against men:
[L]ook at the prisons, they are FULL of MEN, not women. Are men “evil” and women not? Or do the laws target and attempt to restrict NATURAL MEN’S BEHAVIOR? How many of the HEROES in American history would avoid prison if they lived today? Davey Crockett? Thomas Jefferson? David Bowie? General Grant & General Lee? Shit, George Washington. … Laws target MEN and men’s behavior. Women want to bitch and cry about their rights and equality… LMAO! MEN are the ones locked away like animals, while women run free!
Someone might have to explain to War Machine that David Bowie is not actually a famous American HERO but a famously androgynous British musician who once recorded an album called “Heroes.” (Mr. Machine may be thinking of James Bowie, a well-known 19th century American frontiersman and slave trader, and the guy the Bowie Knife is named after.)
But other than that, he seems ready to go.
There is, of course, that whole attempted murder charge to deal with.
It’s true the Men’s Rights Movement has had few problems in the past rallying behind men with histories of violence. But War Machine might be a harder sell as a Men’s Rights hero. His alleged attack on Mack left her with a cracked rib, a ruptured liver, numerous broken bones, missing teeth and her eyes swollen shut. (See here for photos of her injuries; obviously this link is NSFW and could be triggering.)
While Mr. Machine denies attacking Mack, he joked to a TV host last year that if she were to leave him “I would just kill her” and get a tattoo saying “Rest In Peace” above the tattoo of her name he has on his neck.
And several hours after allegedly trying to murder her, War Machine tweeted this lovely message about his ex:
War Machine does seem to be at a low point in his life. Even aside from the charges he faces, and the time he seems likely to serve, his career in porn is almost certainly over. The “Alpha Male” clothing line he helped start wants nothing to do with him. Nobody but the prison system seems to want this guy.
In other words: Men’s Rights activists, this is your chance! War Machine may not be the, er, hero you want. But he’s certainly the hero you deserve.
Posted on August 21, 2014, in a voice for men, alpha males, antifeminism, domestic violence, entitlement, excusing abuse, incoherent rage, men created civilization, men invented everything, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, post contains sarcasm, reactionary bullshit, red pill, violence and tagged anti-feminism, antifeminism, christy mack, domestic violence, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, red pill, violence against women, war machine. Bookmark the permalink. 1,454 Comments.
Damn. This isn’t right. I’m still relatively new here but from what I’ve observed, I agree with marinerachel, hellkell, cassandrakitty, kittehserf and Argenti. And there’s no way to talk it out without violating one of contrapangloss’ suggested rules.
A little too tired and heartsick to write good emails right now. I’ll have to write them in the morning…
Even then…
I really love you all. Knowing you seriously made my life better. Going to run back to the personal thread and drown in animal hugs, because I kind of need them, and maybe some other folks need them too.
I hope no one feels personally slighted by my choice to take a time-out. I actually really respect the desire some people here have to prevent specific harm. That’s admirable. I think though, by allowing specific individuals to hold the place hostage with their emotions, valid as they may be, a lot of discussion is being silenced and people who are less open about their challenges are being hurt. Ideas are going unchallenged that I believe are potentiallly harmful. They’re not super prevalent right now but the fact they can’t be robustly criticised based on who they come from worries me. I am concerned that they’ll permeate. The inability to dissect them makes me think they’ll ultimately poison the board. That scares me.
Like kittehserf, my inability to express my feels based on the desire of others not to “rock the boat” has me and others feeling pretty unwelcome. I’m not upset with anyone though, just sad to see the board choosing a path that will ultimately harm it.
I love so many of you and I certainly hope to be back. I’m terribly concerned I sound ungrateful but I’m not at all. This crew has given me so much when I’ve needed it most. I have concerns though which I don’t believe can be addressed without making myself a target at this time. The things that concern me are the same things that are preventing important discussion from occurring. I’m not in a good enough place to be doing any revolutionary shit.
I do love you guys for everything you’ve done for me and hope you’ll reach out. Maybe hellkell will act as an intermediary for me too? Or David?
…starting to feel like I might be a huge part of the problem…
If I ever made anyone feel unsafe, massive apologies. Huge, huge, ginormous apologies.
I should just go to bed.
@contrapangloss
Not from my perspective.
No, you’re not.
OK, I probably shouldn’t still be lurking, but..I second everything marinerachel just wrote. I thought for a while that maybe I could help fix some of this, but I think in fact my efforts thus far have either been useless or actively harmful. In either case, nothing is getting better, and I’ve hit the point where I’m too emotionally drained and frustrated to try any more, and some of this most recent stuff has crossed the line from frustrating to scary and dangerous (and it’s not just here that that’s happening).
And yes, I know that when a bunch of people who aren’t here right now come back everything I just wrote will probably be reframed as me being the evil witch who’s persecuting a vulnerable child. Which is the other reason that I’m choosing to leave now. This dynamic is toxic, I can’t fix it, if I try to do so the tension will just keep escalating.
Marinerachel, Fibi, Aunty Alias, Shadow, Cloudiah and so on (if I’m not mentioning you by name it doesn’t mean I don’t want to talk to you, I’m just tired)- if you still want to talk to me, feel free to get in touch with me, but I’m getting out of this mess now before I just make things worse.
I hope things get better, everyone, I really do. This used to be such a fun place, and to whatever extent I may have helped make it less fun, I’m sorry.
This whole situation is very saddening to me, and I don’t want to see all (or any) of you go. I want this to be a place where people like you all feel they can speak freely. I will happily set up another thread to discuss this if that’s what people want.
I’m still trying to sort through all of the issues people have raised.
If any of you want to email with any concerns you don’t feel comfortable posting, please feel free. Some of you have been doing that already.
I think the more we stick around, Cassandra, the more potential for improvement but I also think the reason we’ve been able to calmly express frustration over the last few hours is due to certain individuals who think we’re nasty persons not being present and when they area back potential for meaningful discussion will go to shit because they think the harm from having the discussion is more important than the harm from not having it. It comes from a place of kindness and that’s admirable but I wholly disagree.
I feel like I should just take a photo of my face and paste it over a still of Maleficent in dragon form, honestly. It would be nicely symbolic, no?
Well……….. fuck. I’m absolutely gutted to see you guys go. Cassandra and hellkell, you guys have been on this blog for so long and I honestly can’t imagine this community without y’all. Even though we’ve never interacted outside of this blog, you guys have been a big part of my life for so many years now, and you’ve both made huge impacts in my life during a lot of low points that you didn’t know about, just by small kindnesses that came naturally to y’all. You’re both huge reasons why I’ve been a part of this community for so long, and why WHTM has been an exception for me as an internet community in which I am comfortable to be myself and actively participate in. I want to second Unimaginative, you both are two of the major reasons that WHTM has been a haven for me and I’m so sorry that the time has come when it no longer feels that way for you guys. I hope that I haven’t contributed to that, and if I have then I wholeheartedly apologize to you both. Selfishly, I hope that a time will come when the blog feels like a safe space for you guys again, and should that ever happen I would be ecstatic if I see you guys here again. I hope that the rivers overflow with awesome for you guys and wish you both, and Mr. HK and Mr. C, everything good in the world.
Kitteh’s, Argenti and marinerachel
I really hope that you guys don’t leave permanently. Kitteh’s and Argenti, although I haven’t known you guys as long as hellkell and Cassandra, you are both as synonymous with WHTM as they are AFAIC, and I cannot imagine coming to this blog without reading something by one of y’all. you’ve both been my friends for years and I really, really hope we don’t lose you.
marinerachel, we haven’t interacted much but I love having you in this community and I sincerely hope we don’t lose you, either.
Argenti you have my email. hellkell, I’ll definitely drop you a line and maybe you could pass on my email if anyone’s interested. I know it won’t be the same, especially because I’m absolutely horrific when it comes to replying to mails, but I know you guys will pop in my head and it’d drive me nuts not being able to check in on you guys.
Shadow, it’s not you, not even a little bit. In fact if you lived closer I’d happily buy you a drink (in a non-creepy, big sisterly kind of way – I know, I’m already officially on Team Evil Bitch here, so can we not add any misunderstandings about that to the list?).
I’m gonna miss you, dude. Feel free to keep in touch.
@cassandrakitty
I don’t know how to reach you or I would. :(
I wish everyone would just take a break and come back later. Emotions are running high but maybe it will seem different in a few weeks or months. I’m still really not sure what happened and why it can’t be hashed out so maybe it’s not my place to make a plea for people not to leave though.
David, thank you, but even with a dedicated thread those of us who wish to air our concerns can’t because others want to police our expression for fear someone will be triggered. The board is held hostage by those emotions and many other people’s fear they’ll be triggered so this discussion can’t happen.
We all have a duty to self-care which goodness knows I’ve failed to uphold in the past so I get it. If the functioning of a discussion board is predicated on your potential for being triggered though and a chunk of that board’s membership has discouraged you from engaging in self-care by holding everyone else responsible for managing your mood, you’ve really neglected your responsibility to yourself, others have enabled you to and it’s made a lot of people feel devalued and shoved aside. If your presence in a discussion board requires so much babysitting that many people feel shoved aside, it’s probably in your best interests to remove yourself from the environment and build a coping toolkit. Of course we want you back but we want you better so you’re not as likely to incur harm and preventing harm to you doesn’t involve silencing and hurting others.
We can have this discussion in private. Let’s get a group e-mail going.
If I’m not one of the one’s who has upset people – and I sure I’m not- I’ll email Hellkell and give her my email. It’s my full name so I’m not leaving it publicly.
@ AuntyAlias
If nobody else who has it is around David can pass my email address on to you.
I’ll be honest, while I’ve been very uncomfortable with the idea of certain conversations being off topic, I haven’t pushed for them because they’ve all been topics that are outside my experience and things that I have no business opining about. I felt like it would be kind of dickish and cowardly to push for something that I won’t be participating in.
I know I’m very conflict avoidant, and I know I’m not the only one. I also feel like some of us (myself included in this) have spent so many years investing so much love into this community that we’re scared to lose members. And unlike AFK relationships, if we have a misunderstanding with someone here, they could just decide to disappear and we’ll never get the chance to clear it up or make up with them, which can be a scary thought.
That being said, I’m very genuine in my interactions with this community. I treat y’all the way I do because I genuinely like and respect y’all because of the things that you say and the way you treat each other and myself. I personally feel like if we keep treading around these heated conversations we’re going to lose the genuinity of this community.
I think David or hellkell would give you either Cassandra’s or my e-mail addresses. Feel free to reach out. I think a group discussion would be a great way to hash the issue out but it’s been decided here that we can’t do exactly what it is we need to in order to resolve the matter lest someone be triggered. If individuals are not going to prevent the triggering by removing themselves from necessary discussions I guess we just have to have the discussion elsewhere which I’m not sure will accomplish anything but I’m happy to give it a try.
cassandra, if people have put you (or me, or hellkell, or anyone) on Team Evil Bitch, it’s because they’re not comprehending, or ignoring, what we’re saying – you in particular because you’ve a damn sight more knowledge of this than a lot of people here, I suspect.
marinerachel, thirding everything you said there. There’s an effective silencing of women who aren’t toeing a particular line on this subject.
If anyone wants to talk to me, you can pass a message to me via David or the mods.
Shadow, I really hope I don’t have to leave permanently. I don’t want to. I wish your trip Downunder had given you time for that coffee! If you visit again, I’d love to catch up.
cloudiah, if you see this, I hope you don’t want to cut contact. That day in LA was the best fun. I’m the same person I was then.
@Cassandra
I would definitely love to keep in touch. I’ll ask Argenti or hellkell if they could pass my address on to you, like WWTH’s it’s my personal email with my name so I’d rather not post it here.
If we try to have this discussion in private that just creates a new problem, though, because then we’re excluding people, some of them just because they happen not to be around now, and that’s not OK either.
Ugh, this is so frustrating.
@ Shadow
Sure, either of those two can do it. I suck at keeping in touch too, once moved and forgot to tell anyone from high school my new address for months, but I’ll try.
If nothing else I’m glad I came back for long enough to a. get confirmation that there are other people feeling the same way, and b. establish some sort of contact with a few people I’m really going to miss if I’m out for good.
I only wish I thought that there were more people who’d miss me, but hey, I’m evil, not stupid.
I’ve removed myself from a couple of communities because I was angry and upset and I’m so sorry so many of you are going through that now. LBT has been silent and I hope he’s okay. (Is that the correct pronoun?)
I really hope there’s some way to resolve this. I’m having trouble saying good-bye to people because I can’t believe this is happening. All of you bring so much insight and laughter to this place and it’s hard to imagine it without you.
cassandrakitty, you are NOT evil! :bear:
Well, I’m going to sleep. Working early tomorrow. Please do continue discussing the matter wherever you can to whatever extent you can though and I’ll get caught up when I have the opportunity.
We just need a place we can have the discussion where, yes, everyone is welcome but if you’re particularly concerned about being triggered by criticism it’s your responsibility to stay clear of it, not everyone else’s to keep silent about their concerns. It of course wouldn’t be an abusive discussion but there would be robust criticism of other’s conduct and ideas.
Auntie Alias has teddy!
Would it be worth making a new version of the Secret Room for this? There’s stuff I really don’t think we should be posting in public, because – and I’m not exaggerating – it might compromise people’s safety.
While we’re venting, marinerachel, I feel like I wasn’t nearly as much help to you as I’d have liked to have been when you were hitting your lowest point, and I’m sorry about that too. I’m way more tough love and practical support than talking people through a crisis, unfortunately, and you can’t really do either of those from far away with a person you don’t know well. I still wish I’d been able to help more and tried harder to do so, though. If you want to keep in touch, hellkell or David can give you my email.
Would it make a difference? Would we be permitted to air our concerns even if someone might be triggered by them? Because if not, there’s no value.
I agree, kitteh.
Didn’t go to bed, watched some BBC with David Attenborough. Now I’m going to bed.
Kittehs, I’m never lumping you and Cassandra on that team. I may not always agree with you, but the pair of you were the first to make me feel like this was a legit web-home. You’ve always been honest and forthright, with me, and you are also pretty genuinely caring.
I forget which thread it was, but you two were totally the first to make be believe (and not just “know”) that the creepy park kiss dude wasn’t my fault. You two also were the first people other than my parents I felt safe talking about that too, even if it was online for all the world to see with that conversation.
This whole fiasco reeks, and it might have been inevitable, or needed, or it might have been totally unneeded, and I really don’t know because I’m still kind of a naive kid, in so many ways.
If you were here, I’d hug the bejeepers out of both of you. I’m in AK till next spring, and who knows where after that for grad school, but I’d be more than honored to share coffee with either of you.
My address is my nym @hotmail, if you ever want to get in touch.
I think both approaches have value, cassandra, but thank you. If I hadn’t let that guy destroy my self worth I would have been able to pick myself up by my bootstraps. I still didn’t fucking deserve it. It was still his fault. I was still victimized. Regarding my own duty to self-care though I failed and I frightened a lot of people in the process. I regret those things and will do better in the future. I want to be someone who, when in crisis, can paddle themself to shore. Leaning on people when one needs to is important but not the the extent they topple over. I scared a lot of people needlessly. I will never allow myself to be so battered emotionally that I’m debilitated and others are frightened for me again.
Cassandrakitty, hellkell, you go way back. I know I’m an occasional poster, mostly lurker here and I only just realised this has kicked off today. It’s taken me an afternoon to catch up and I feel like crying. I totally get that you need to keep yourselves safe, as does Ally but I naively want everyone to stay together. No-one’s on Team Evil Bitch, I think every one has made good points and I’ve spent the afternoon yo-yo-ing between them, trying to understand the good arguments that you are all making and reflecting on myself. I hope this community can find a way to resolve this conflict, and I would seriously miss your voices in all that.
This is probably going to turn into “stop damselling!” by the time I wake up, but contrapangloss, aunty alias, and shadow, thank you so much for the kind words here. I’m not so fond of showing my soft underbelly in public spaces where vulnerability could be used against me (something which gets me into trouble sometimes, because it’s oh so not acceptable for women to be that way, and makes it oh so easy for people to assume that you really are fucking Maleficent with a hide made out of iron), but I’ve spent the last couple of days wondering if I’d have any friends at all left here other than Kittehs and hellkell by the time all this was over, so I really, really appreciate every little bit of kindness in this thread. And now I’m going to shut up before I get weepy, because nobody wants to see that.
I didn’t want to be on Team Evil Bitch but now that I am may I paste my face on Ursula?
I don’t quite know what that is, but I’d be down.
Cassandrakitty,
I don’t think anyone here considers you an evil bitch. I’d be your friend if you would have me. Not to sound needy, but nobody has replied to my last several posts so I’m worried that I’ve said something to offend people at some point. I really hope I haven’t. I’m still trying to understand the conflict so I’ve just stayed out of it.
@ WWTH
I think nobody has been responding to you just because you haven’t upset anyone, ironically enough. I’m not ignoring you because I’m offended, promise, I just don’t want to drag anyone else into this conflict who isn’t already involved.
Ally has written me to say that she will be leaving WHTM; that is, not reading or posting in the comments any more. Anyone who wants to keep in touch with her should email me, and I can pass your email along to her.
And that’s the case if you want to keep in touch with anyone who is leaving, just email me.
For the record, while I’m still sorting through all this, I don’t think anyone is on team evil bitch in this situation.
I wish I could fix this but I honestly don’t know how. Obviously I am very sad to see so many amazing people leaving — I hope that at least some of you reconsider or decide to make this a temporary thing — but I understand that people need to do whatever they need to do to feel safe.
If anyone has thoughts on how to rachet down the tensions and avoid this sort of situation from arising in the future I am more than happy to hear them, publicly or privately.
I’m conflict avoidant too. And I am only posting now because I don’t want people to think I put them on Team Evil Bitch.
I personally, selfishly, do not want anyone here to leave.I have loved reading the comments from all of you.
I understand that some people feel they need to leave for their emotional health, and though I personally hate the fact, you definately have to do what is needed to keep yourself safe.
I don’t know anyone who is leaving well enough to email them, so I’ll just say that I will miss you, and addresses of other blogs where they can be found would be welcome.
This is the only blog I have ever felt ok to comment on.
Sorry if you’re feeling like you’re contributing to the problem, weirwoodtreehugger. I don’t feel that way at all. I think any of us would be happy to discuss with you what we see as the conflict via email. Part of theconflictthough is we feel we’re not permitted to have a conversation about it here, regardless the damage we believe not having it is doing.
I obviously have a vested interest in this because I want y’all to remain a part of the community. I’m also of the opinion that you guys are a big reason for this community lasting as long and as strong as it has, and therefore are owed the opportunity to air your grievances and be heard. If you guys feel like a thread or forum post would be useful then I, for one, am fully for that.
It’s 4 am and I have to sleep now. I hope this won’t be the last time I talk to you guys on this blog, but should the worst happen I’m really glad I managed to catch you guys, and that this won’t be the last time I speak to y’all. Good night guys, and all my love.
Ugh. I fully expect a tirade of “LOOK WHAT YOU’VE DONE/YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF” directed at the evil bitchez shortly. Better take my leave.
WWTH, I’ve hardly been looking at the blog the last few days, but apologies if that’s contributed to you feeling ignored!
Anyone here’s free and welcome to email me, whether to chat generally or talk about this in particular or swap Furrinati pics or whatevs.
If we can talk about this in a safely private – ie. not open to public view – space here, I’m up for it, and I won’t leave the site.
I wish Ally well. Maybe she’s just too sensitive for the internet unless it’s a tightly regulated safe space. I wanted to accommodate her but I don’t want other regulars to be driven away by that either. Idk, I’m just sad a conflict happened at all and I hope people reconsider leaving.
No! No, no, NO, NONONONONONONONONONO!!
No evil bitches. or bitchez.
FWIW, I don’t think the secret room thing is a good idea. It seemed to just cause extra drama last time, and I suspect that would happen again.
Not up to me, obviously, just my opinion.
I’ve tried to be reasonably quiet on this thread, as I haven’t wanted to upset anyone and I simply (a) haven’t known what to say and (b) don’t have as much knowledge as the topics that others were discussing and thought anything I said would just be triggering or not adding to the conversation.
@hellkell: I’ve emailed you – hope I got that right
@kitteh: can you check Ravelry, I thought I already had your email address but numerous searches have not revealed it to me in my mail client /sigh
@cassandra: I wanted to say /hugs and I would like to keep in contact if you’re interested, but I thought you were gone gone and so I didn’t post anything in this thread hoping to contact you via an intermediary offsite.
@marinerachel: I don’t want to see you go either. :(
If anything I have said has played any role in your decisions, I am really really sorry.
Momentary calm now, so. I have to point out that most of the people who were on the other side of this argument are not online now. Thus, the general consensus may shift once they come back online. If that happens, and “evil bitches who drove off a vulnerable kid” is where the consensus ends up, I’m out again, just because I don’t think it would do anyone any good to have a bunch of people sitting there seething and quietly resenting each other.
My concern is that we won’t end up with any consensus at all, and will end up split into factions. Wish I knew how to fix that, but I’m not sure if it’s fixable, because sometimes people just plain don’t see things the same way.
@ pallygirl
Just in case things do go in a direction where it would be a negative thing for me to be here, please do feel free to get in touch via whatever contact point is easiest.
I think most people here like everyone on both sides of this, and do not have the personal commitment to either side.
We just know we like everyone, and we do not think anyone involved intended insult.
But we do not have the personal knowledge to say anything decisive.
Nobody taking part in this discussion tonight has offended me in any way but I only stuck my neck out once during all of this.
David, thank you for the update.
I’m with Cassandra. If the other half of the crew returns brimming with resentment, I’m out. I know when I’m not wanted and as previously stated I’m not starting a revolution. It the majority of this board wants a board that’s OK with being paternalistic towards specific members knowing doing so throws others under the bus, that’s fine. This board gets to determine it’s own culture, whether I like it or not. I won’t stick around and be percieved as a big bully though who chose a helpless target. That didnt happen.
What unimaginative said. With bonus emphasis.
I apologise for not saying anything during all of this. But try as I might, I couldn’t think of anything to say that wouldn’t make things worse for me or for one, any, some, all of you.
And David? Don’t feel too bad. I’ve thought about how you and/or mods could have handled this in a way to avoid all this — and there’s only one way. Get a tardis, go back, and close down the thread long, loooong before the point where things ran right off the rails. We do expect you to run this place. We don’t expect you to have magical, mystery abilities to predict that any given thread will go so badly.
Nope, unfortunately I think we do have an underlying disagreement going on here, at least among the people who really care about this issue. Brooked explained my position well enough that I’m not going to do it in detail again, but the short version – I don’t think it’s possible to suggest that sexual minority a (who happen to be women, with all the sexual assumptions that brings with it) ought to examine what they do and don’t find attractive, in a context where everyone involved is some combination of leftist/progressive/queer, and the assumption that not being attracted to people in minority group b is probably influenced by some sort of societal bias has already been made, without that discussion being inherently coercive. There’s a quite clear sense there of what the ethically more correct set of preferences would be, and an implied critique aimed at the people who find that their attractions are not in fact reflective of that ethically more correct position. One would hope that in most cases it’s not intended to be coercive or being deliberately used to hurt people, but still, raising the subject implies that there is a correct answer, and that means things for those people who end up finding that that correct answer does not match their actual preferences. And, for extra messiness, having the request that patterns of attraction be examined and potentially reevaluated aimed specifically at women brings up all kinds of problems, especially if they’re young women who really really don’t want to lose the approval of their community. Which, as I said the last time this subject came up, is why I’m not OK with this.
Sorry, folks, but I’m not backing down on this on, if I’m staying around at all. I am queer, and this has an impact for me that goes far beyond this specific discussion (though this discussion is important on its own too). This is a boundary issue.
(And, again like Brooked says, it comes up in other contexts like kink too, and my approach to those situations is exactly the same as my approach to this one. Why people like what they like, and even more importantly why they don’t like what they don’t like, is none of anyone else’s business and as long as they’re not harming other people their motivations are not up for debate.)
So, yeah, now I’m back to being Maleficent again, and I should probably go to bed. Whether I’ve manage to make what I’m actually objecting to clear or not I’m not sure, but I’ve been pretty damn consistent on this in every conceivable sexual scenario. Coercion doesn’t have to be as obvious as “do this or I’ll hurt you”, more subtle forms of coercion are bad too, and they’re still bad even if coercion wasn’t the intent.
Thank you.
I didn’t have the words for this – and you’ve done your usual insightful summary.
This and this. I hate the idea of this community being torn, but can’t think of a damn thing that I could add that wouldn’t exacerbate existing tensions. I hope those taking a break only feel the need to do so temporarily.
@ mildlymagnificent
Since you get what I’m trying to say could you/others maybe help me out a bit on this going forward? I feel like other than brooked, who definitely got it, the position I’m taking keeps getting reduced to “coercion yes/no? well no obviously I’m/people we like aren’t rapists so why are you even bringing this up?”, and it’s really, really not that simple.
That’s why I couldn’t find my words earlier because for me it is simple.
I suspected that however I said that I’d be too blunt or direct for some – and get myself into trouble accordingly, and maybe some splash onto others. So I’ll say a version of it now.
In the end, it doesn’t matter that a woman’s refusal to consider someone as a sexual partner is based on silly ideas, irrational responses or downright nasty prejudice. Her consent is hers to give, not anyone else’s to demand. She may dislike red hair or people who remind her of a family member. People may be correct in saying that those are not serious issues, but it makes no difference. The unknowing unfortunates with these undesirable attributes still have no claim on her time, her attention or her body.
And there’s also no sexual difference if the undesirable attributes are rooted in unthinking stereotypes, or vile, conscious prejudices. People with that coloured skin, that religious affiliation, that ethnicity, those genitals, that disability, that sexual preference still have no claim on anyone, woman or man, beyond that of ordinary civility.
There’s a social and public difference in that people should be more accepting or generous, or at least less prejudiced. But intimacy is entirely and only the choices of the people in question. And if one of them doesn’t consent, that’s it. Over before it’s begun.
::applauds everything cassandrakitty said::
There’s an implicit you must accept me that goes beyond just “hey we want to participate in your community” in all this and it gets expressed by some in some appalling ways, as has already been detailed here. If even mentioning that, if even pointing out that that is misogyny and homophobia, is verboten here, then I too will be out. I am seriously not interested in putting one person’s sexual politics, aka feelings, above calling out things that harm other women.
Very well said, again, marinerachel.
::also applauds mildymagnificent::
@what mildlymagnificent said:
Generally speaking, i.e. omitting the extreme examples,* there is no way to tell whether a person’s preferences are this, or from a “non-prejudiced” basis. I’m really uncomfortable with people’s sexuality being policed – apart from the situations where consent wasn’t given, for obvious reasons. It isn’t a good thing for another to cast judgement over whether someone’s sexual preferences are – or are not – biased. FFS, being that sexual preferences are emotional, they are bloody “biased” – which then brings us to the mirky depths of what is “okay” bias and what is “not okay” bias. Who gets to decide that, other that the individual with the sexual preference?
* Please ignore the extreme examples for each sentence I’m writing.
Uhm, excuse me, you can ignore me if you want. But it just appeared to me that the two “groups” here don’t, uhm, really talk to each other. It’s rather like the tides – one moment it’s only people from the one side, then the next only people from the other side. So instead of the two groups talking with each other, we have a lot of people talking within their own group, reinforcing its position. This also leads to the problem that both sides at varying times might see an apparent thread “consensus” against themselves (even though there is in fact no consensus) – the “dogpiles” that were mentioned…
I just find this a bit… unproductive, I guess?
Kittehs and hellkell and cassandrakitty are my favourite people here. I honestly can’t see the community continuing if any of you (let alone all of you!) were to leave.
The problem is clear and it has pissed me off this entire thread people not using any names. It’s fucking blindingly obvious what the problem is. If other poster are upset by Ally leaving hopefully they’ll manage to deal with that and not try to take it out on others, but can’t they just be ignored?
I am still relatively new but even I’ve been aware of this tension for quite a while so I don’t fully understand those who are saying they don’t know whats going on.
I hope in my attempts at being respectful and learning new things I haven’t inadvertently joined the wrong faction.
Don’t leave guys
For a start I can never remember kittehs website so how will I be able to keep up with the goings on on the other side?
Exactly. Case closed. You have to stay. The end.
why didn’t this link work?
I don’t think people choose to all be online at once octo, (or if they do they never told me the bastards). I for example am in the UK where it is 12:33, Kittehs is in Australia where it is some sort of upside down time, etc. I are helpful yes?
Upside down time? Yes.
I’m in Adelaide, so it’s just gone 9pm here. Kittehs is at 9.30pm.
If it helps, I was in the “people I admire seem to be arguing and I don’t know what is going on” camp. It turned out I missed the end of the E-day concert thread which I have just reread.
For the people who have decided to go, i wanted to let you know that you have been awesome. I selfishly would like it if you didn’t leave, but know that the next group of people you make friends with will be very lucky. This is one of the two sites on the Internet I feel safe commenting on and that is mostly due to the commenters.
Also, after reading through everything, I can see cassandrakitty’s point. I don’t really know what type of feminist I am, but one of the central pillars of my feminism is enthusiastic consent. In this context, making moral judgement about whether someone is attracted to someone else makes me pretty damn uncomfortable. This aside, as long as this central pillar is not affected, I want to include trans-positive aspects in my feminism and I see no reason these things can’t be compatible.
First I would like to say Cassandrakitty, Kittehs, hellkell, marinerachel, I really wish you would reconsider leaving. None of you are evil b#@%hes AT ALL. I realize why you are leaving and I really understand. I also completely agree with you on this matter. But this forum will not be the forum that has given me so much over the last 2 years of reading this site (you have no idea how helpful you have been in me finding my voice). I feel like I should have spoken up earlier because you guys are not alone in your thoughts on this matter, and I am sorry you felt that way. I would like to second what daintydougal as well and add please, please don’t leave. :)