How to Lose a Debate in 45 Minutes: Paul Elam fumbles his debate with Matt Binder
So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
Posted on July 11, 2014, in a voice for men, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, straw feminists and tagged a voice for men, anti-feminism, antifeminism, men's rights, misogyny, MRA. Bookmark the permalink. 649 Comments.
“I know people who feel that way and just call themselves non-binary because, while they don’t know what exactly their gender is, they sure as hell aren’t strictly male or female.”
Leum — I’m one of those people. Once I had the “shit, you mean I don’t have to pick one?!?” lightbulb, I decided I didn’t care what label that meant I was. I toy with them sometimes, but as a semantics thing, not an identity thing.
I should be getting dressed, instead, manboobz/WHTM >.<
What are your favorite episodes?
Re: Esmay’s unshaven face — didn’t even register with me, I think my brain lumped it with my brother’s beard and ignored it! (There’s no point here, just a thing I found funny)
And whomever was joking about him turning off the lights because we mocked his curtains, it is the same room. I watched it again to torture my mother with it and since I was trying to ignore the words so as not to bias her, I caught a couple glances at the curtains, the barely lit background has the same shine the fabric of that sort of curtain has. (Also an utterly random observation.)
Katz — ones where things like this happen —
Oh please let us just make this into the random QI clips thread.
Enh, I rock sometimes.
RE: Robert Ramirez
It’s okay, dude. I’m embarrassed to share a gender with Andy Blake (though he would be horrified, just HORRIFIED to think so). There’s plenty of second-hand gendershame to go around!
RE: WWTH
I know that I often am hyper vigilant about eating disorder red flags.
Me too. There’s a reason I will probably NEVER watch the new Captain America movies.
Back on topic, there is a thread at the AVFM forums discussing this as well.
WARNING: this links to AVFM. I don’t know how to do the DoNotLink thing. If someone is able to do that, it would be awesome.
forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?11595-Elam-v-some-guy-from-Sam-Seders-challenge
Some highlights:
-Saying Matt won.
-Questioning if Elam knows what he is doing.
-Calling out Molyneux for his statement/extremist ideas and wondering of MRAs should distance the movement from him or stop giving him a platform to speak.
-Questioning Anne Cools’ anti-gay marriage stance.
This debate has backfired on Elam in a big way. I am loving it.
@WatermelonSugar
You can use this website next time – it’s pretty easy to follow: http://www.donotlink.com/
There’s no way people are actually surprised that Elam can’t form a cogent argument. Like, remember that part in Logic class when they said your premises had to be true?
Neither do clams.
Wait, what?
I’m on a chair.
(This is what the debate has done to my brain AND MAGIC HELMET!!!.)
Okay, I’m going to try to watch the debate now without cringing to death.
Nevermind, Elam looks too much like my dad and it’s triggering the fuck out of me. X_X I don’t want to hear his voice and associate it with his appearance.
From the few minutes I managed to listen to, you aren’t missing anything.
Thanks, Ally. I have it bookmarked now.
I am sorry it was triggering for you. I promise you aren’t missing much. Elam just read a bunch of drivel and Matt made some valid points.
I’m just exciting it is sowing descent among the ranks. Literally nothing AVFM has done post-conference has been respectable, and it’s about time some of these MRAs take a hard look at their movement.
I finally watched the Elliot Rodger part and the closing statements. Hilarious. Binder made a total ass of them and reading the transcript didn’t compare to the glory of seeing the video.
I was wondering if one of you fine ladies and gents could give me some GPS coordinates to the amazing land of male privilege where physical appearance doesn’t matter for men. As someone whose physical appearance has been criticized frequently by both men and women and as someone who stands in front of the mirror everyday and criticizes my body for being ugly, I would love to move there.
Do you know what your problem is? You guys look at the experiences of small subsets of men and then universalize those experiences to all men. You treat men as a giant collective instead of as individuals. You see lower class men looking like slobs, so you assume that nobody cares what men look like. You ignore the fact that lower class women can look like slobs and get away it. You see the top 0.000001% of men with power and you assume that all men have power and that these men at the top represent my interests as a man. How about you treat us like individual people instead of as a group?
@WatermelonSugar
Thanks for the link! Here are some quotes:
“Elam walked right into his trap. A trap that I saw coming and didnt refute the accusation of Stefan Molyneux being A) an MRA or B) being taken out of context. He didnt question the BS studies Binder brought up about in the end. He spoke from a script FFS and looked rattled from the get go. Binder was on the offensive, whether he was honest or not, all hour & Binder got off completely. I bet Binder makes a clip of Elam not being able to tell the difference between Stefan and Elliot Rodger as a victory.”
“True, but Binder doesn’t represent a movement. Elam does.”
Reply: “Well it’s not like public opinion can go any lower.”
Heh. True, dat.
“My only problem was that Paul did not seem to put a lot of energy into it. He acted like an old professor reading from his dusty tome of pre-written answers.”
“Binder was young, dynamic. Elam was old and boring.”
“Elam needs an apprentice. Somebody young and charismatic.”
“I was rooting for Paul but Mr. Binder was just running circles over him. Yeah, he may have used some low blows and told lies about the MRA but it’s our job as the more mature and smarter ones to dominate these feminists even with their lies.”
Bwahaha!
I poked around the forums a little more and stumbled across this posted by “The King who cannot move”:
Just try it, bucko.
How human rights-y.
Seriously, though, sorry they’re targeting you. How dare you, you know, disagree with them in comments sections. You’re like some kind of fascist or something.
Ooooh, Pauly’s not going to like the implications that he’s past it and they need fresh blood in their *cough* leadership *cough*. Wonder if there’ll be a new round of bannings.
Delurkers all, hi! Have a Welcome Package!
@Auntie–
Those are gems, right? My personal favorite parts are when they start creep shaming SM, because apparently creep shaming men is only psychologically damaging and the-absolute-worst-kind-of-shaming-ever if it is done by the Evil Empire and is super legit criticism when employed by MRAs discussing other MRAs. Or when they accuse SM of cash-grabbing without actually doing anything for men’s rights, because that sounds nothing at all like a certain AVFM owner.
And I see you everywhere on articles and treads. It makes me so happy. I say keep up the good work, especially if it ruffles the misters’ feathers.
Especially given that they only know this because they turn up in the same comment sections. Or the comment section of anything having to do with feminism.
But seriously, I’ve been logging into Disqus with my Facebook to argue with these guys, including Attila and Fidelbogen – don’t think I’ll be doing that any more. Probably shouldn’t have been doing it at all, but I didn’t think I’d be worth harassing, and anyway I’ve put enough identifying info on this blog that someone so inclined could easily find me. Oops.
Thanks, cloudiah. It’s probably nothing. I’m curious to know what that dude’s Disqus user name is. I challenged them by posting that quote in the comments on the article he was complaining about. I saw someone typing a reply and then nothing was posted so I guess that person had second thoughts.
@WatermelonSugar
Ha! They’re so lacking in self-awareness.
Fighting with them in the comments amuses me. Occasionally an opportunity presents itself to cause dissent within their ranks or to prod them into doing something really dumb. It actually worked a couple of times so it was all worth it.
I wonder if the AVfM guys will get their supersleuth JB on the Case of the Alias of Auntie Alias. I can see it now; she shows up in another comment thread, apropos of nothing, and starts telling us: “I’m really worried about Auntie Alias. If anyone knows her on Facebook, I really think you should go message her there. I don’t know if she did anything, but she did something, I’m sure. I don’t think she knows how serious this could be. So you should go message her. I’d do it myself, but she won’t listen to me. I’m really worried, I mean, she might get into big trouble, expressing opinions and things like that. I thought you guys would want to help!”
Seriously, though, Auntie Alias, sorry and bravo. Bravo because you’re getting the misters in a tizzy, and sorry that one of them is targeting you for the horrible crime of saying things while feminist.
It should be smart, not smarter. If these guys want to fancy themselves the wise ones, they really ought to learn grammar. It would be much more convincing that way.
@emilygoddess
Oops, indeed. Hopefully nothing will come of it.
I’m not on Facebook or Twitter and have no blog. I’ve deliberately never disclosed what province I live in.
One thing I learned recently from someone who moderates a site using Disqus is that site moderators can view the email address you registered with Disqus as well as your IP address. I was floored! Thankfully, I never posted a comment on AVFM or any other misogynist site.
RE: Apophis
I was wondering if one of you fine ladies and gents could give me some GPS coordinates to the amazing land of male privilege where physical appearance doesn’t matter for men.
That would actually require you to understand what male privilege is. Here, my son, have a nice handy link. Hint: just because you have male privilege doesn’t mean bad shit can’t happen to you. I’m a dude. I’ve been homeless, and poor, and all that jazz. I still got male privilege.
Do you know what your problem is?
No, but I’m sure you’re going to tell us.
You ignore the fact that lower class women can look like slobs and get away it.
Dude. DUDE. On behalf of my working class relatives, go fuck a cactus.
How about you treat us like individual people instead of as a group?
Sweet honey child, the Mammoths here have no trouble treating me or the other guys here as individuals. What am I, chopped liver?
If anyone has ever posted personal info here and regretted it, I know David can edit comments. So email him if there are particular comments sharing information you now regret sharing.
Is Apophis trying to claim that women don’t get scrutinized for our appearances? What world is he living in? What a clueless idiot.
How did I miss Apophis?
You mean like MRAs treat women as individuals and never make generalizations about them as a group? Oh, wait…
Apophis is more fun if you read him as Apophis, the evil Goa’uld false-god from Stargate.
I know I’m probably being horribly insensitive to the true roots of the name, and if there are any folks who hold fast and worship Apophis and family, then I apologize in advance.
I just can’t help myself.
“Not all goa’ulds! Some are Tok’ra! I’m not; but some are! Bow before your God!”
I’m a terrible person.
@Apophis
Being criticized for looking ugly doesn’t cancel out your male privilege. It sucks that you face such a thing, but it doesn’t make you oppressed. Sorry to burst your bubble. Fortunately, you don’t need to move anywhere because you already have male privilege. You already benefit from women’s oppression just because of being a man. Neat, huh?
Fashion policing doesn’t affect men the way it affects women, regardless of class. Men, while not immune to fashion policing, are faced with far more lenient standards of beauty and modesty. Beauty and modesty are pushed on women to a far greater extent, and so they face worse fashion policing than men.
Also, men do have power – as men. Just because not all men are at the top doesn’t mean that they don’t possess institutionalized power over all women because of being male. Class is not the only axis of power in society. Further, it doesn’t matter whether your interests are represented by the minority of men in power because that is a class issue, not a gender issue. Women’s interests aren’t fully represented by the (far smaller) minority of women in power, either.
So yeah, drop the mansplaining and half-baked class analysis and start trying to gain a better understanding of feminist theory. Because you clearly don’t know shit.
Oh, and fuck your classist description of lower class people as well. You aren’t proving yourself to actually give a shit about class issues.
Ah, I see I set off another dudebro on an angry rant. Just doing my job, folks.
(I am probably the shallowest, most looks-focused woman on this blog, and even I know that in general men get away with being total slobs in comparison with the standards women are held to. Pull the other one, angry man, it’s got bells on.)
Wow, that took off a lot more than I thought it would. Those are three things (shaving, keeping my clothes nice, and sitting still, less the third these days) I, personally, have trouble with due to MY ADD. I didn’t mean to imply they were universal as symptoms or the only explanation for Esmay’s Esmayness (I don’t even particularly dislike Esmay compared to most MRA ‘celebs’, partly because his general oddness makes it easier to think him somewhat confused rather than just hateful). It was speculation, obviously, but more as a personal reflection/musing than anything else. It’s the last line I wrote because it didn’t even pop into my head until after I wrote the other stuff.
This will sound pass-agg and I barely ever post so I don’t know if this is out of line, but I’m honestly a bit offended at the implication I was being ableist and/or stigmatizing in some way, when the reason it occurred to me at all is that they’re things I do because of my disorder. I mean I got no interest in starting a grudge here, but if I say ‘hey, all these things he’s doing are things I sometimes do as a result of my disorder’ and someone responds ‘That’s pretty offensive to people with that disorder, because those are all horrible things (which you just said you do and attributed to the disorder)’, what exactly is that saying to me?
Apophis, eh? Not the smartest nym to choose, given what happened to him. Don’t mess with the cat goddess, sonny.
I LOL’d. And as this is the second SG-1 reference I’ve seen today, it’s obviously a sign from the Universe that I should revisit this show I was so obsessed with in middle and high school.
Gussie Jives
Wow, very r/thathappened. I remember reading that Pizzey has waffled considerably and admitted in thee past that the dog may have not even been murdered, much less publicly offed by pet-threatening feminists. I’d argue that unsubstantiated claims about a dog that died decades ago is a non-issue unworthy of discussion, much less active research. MRAs are free to treat this like it’s the Kennedy assassination, but that doesn’t mean we have to care or take their claims seriously.
I hope you and others mercilessly mock Esmay’s absurd and offensive misappropriation of the American Black Civil Rights Movement. They sure do love making fools of themselves.
contrapangloss – did anyone actually worship Apep/Apophis?
Not solely, I think.
He fist showed up idle Kingdomish, I think, and was essentially the spirit of darkness. Later on, he kind of got merged with Set, and was more general chaos-god-ish.
If someone still worships ancient Egyptian deities, he would get some mention, because he was a god, just not a god of hugs and kittens. He likely had some cultish followings, as well.
Egyptology and theology really aren’t my strong suits. I know just enough to appreciate what SG-1 pulled right, and know at least some of what they got wrong… But I’m the furthest thing from an expert that there could possibly be.
It might be a reference to the asteroid Apophis that might kill us all one day.
contrapangloss, yeah, looks like we’re at about the same level of familiarity with his background.
Binjabreel – I thought of that. Mindless lump of rock seems apt, too, but I bet trollboy is either referring to the Stargate character or a great big SNAKE gosh where’s old Freud when you need him.
I used to have a link to her reddit AMA where Pizzey admitted that (a) she didn’t know who shot at her dog, and (b) her dog didn’t die. Sadly, I’m on a new computer and I can’t find it– though if you have the energy to dig through her reddit AMA you can no doubt find it again.
I do wonder why they disavow all the internet trolls who spout MRA talking points and subscribe to MRA video channels while lobbying death threats at people like “Big Red” but at the same time they expect us to take responsibility for anonymous phone callers from decades ago. Classic MRA hypoagency, I guess.
“Re: Esmay’s unshaven face”
How very inclusive of you guys to imply that being unshaven makes you ugly or dirty. You do know that there are people who keep beards for religious reasons, right? I hope you guys realize that Fox News recently did the same thing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/04/jon-stewart-fox-news-bergdahl_n_5443282.html
“That would actually require you to understand what male privilege is. Here, my son, have a nice handy link. Hint: just because you have male privilege doesn’t mean bad shit can’t happen to you. I’m a dude. I’ve been homeless, and poor, and all that jazz. I still got male privilege.”
I never said that males don’t have any privilege. I said that contrary to cassandra’s nonsensical belief that MRAs are oppressing women by being slobs (seriously, what the hell? Our personal appearances are oppressing you now?) mens’ appearance does matter. That’s very different from claiming that male privilege doesn’t exist.
“Dude. DUDE. On behalf of my working class relatives, go fuck a cactus.”
I’m pretty sure that your sisters in arms were the first to attack lower class men for looking like slobs. Why are they getting a pussy pass from you again?
“Is Apophis trying to claim that women don’t get scrutinized for our appearances? What world is he living in? What a clueless idiot.”
Way to attack me because of your willful failure to properly comprehend what I actually said, lol. I said that men are also scrutinized for their appearance, not that women aren’t scrutinized. I don’t understand why the two have to be mutually exclusive. That’s the other problem with you guys. You think that if something happens to women, it can’t happen to men. Why? Is it because then it wouldn’t be a gender problem and you couldn’t play victim?
“Fashion policing doesn’t affect men the way it affects women, regardless of class. Men, while not immune to fashion policing, are faced with far more lenient standards of beauty and modesty. Beauty and modesty are pushed on women to a far greater extent, and so they face worse fashion policing than men.”
This is utterly false. All a woman has to do to be considered conventionally attractive is be thin. Men have to go on ridiculous diets (who the hell can eat over 3000 calories a day? I feel fat when I eat over 1500) and exert incredible efforts to get six-packs and bulging muscles to look hot. It requires such an incredible amount of time and planning that none of my friends are capable of doing it even though we all want to.
Also I don’t think you guys have ever sat at a high school table with boys. I can promise that there’s plenty of complaining about our bodies and not feeling adequate. The difference is that you guys can get away with complaining openly in public. When you guys complain, a thousand white knights’ hearts melt and they rush to your aid to make sure your fee fees aren’t hurt. When we complain, the world laughs at us, emasculates us, and hangs us from the nearest flagpole.
“in general men get away with being total slobs in comparison with the standards women are held to”
Those are men who have given up on attracting women. I know this because whenever I feel like I’ve given up on women I kind of dress like a slob (and consequently get criticized).
Also, if you think women have it harder than men in terms of attracting someone, consider this woman, who had two disabilities and is overweight and is older, but still managed to get married. If she had been a man, forget about it. Nobody would have even looked at him once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb6PO_zBIGk
So to recap, what does a woman have to do to attract someone? Have a vagina. What does a man have to do? Look like Ryan Gosling or have George Clooney’s charisma or have lots of money.
@ Toddles Manboob esq:
I went back through the thread, and it seems to me that you went, hey, Esmay seems to be doing things I do, I wonder if he has the same diagnosis as me.
And then cherubkeats said, hey, I’m autistic and I do the rocking thing, can we not make fun of rocking?
And then we launched into an earnest discussion about when, if ever, it’s appropriate to assign behaviours to a particular condition, disorder, or diagnosis. Cassandrakitty encapsulated it nicely:
tl;dr: I don’t think any accusation was aimed at you, you just partly triggered a discussion.
‘Binjabreel – I thought of that. Mindless lump of rock seems apt, too, but I bet trollboy is either referring to the Stargate character or a great big SNAKE gosh where’s old Freud when you need him”
It’s a reference to the my favorite Egyptian pre-god, who was attacked by Ra and Ma’at. Ra and Ma’at believed that they had a right to harm Apep just because diety pass. It’s kind of like how feminists think they can beat, rob, rape, and loot men just because vagina.
Link to Erin Pizzey’s AMA about her dog.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1cbrbs/hi_im_erin_pizzey_ask_me_anything/c9f25vy
Toddles,
What Unimaginative said! I don’t think anyone thought you were being an asshole or anything. You just sparked a conversation about how hard it is to know when it’s appropriate to suspect someone of having the same disorder as yourself. I don’t think we even arrived at an answer. It’s a very grey area. I hope you don’t feel too attacked because I doubt that was anyone’s intent.
I think “it depends on the situation and your motives” is as close to a consensus as we got.
Part 2
Also on your prior relationship with the person you see those things in. Like, say I spotted what looked like a familiar behavioral pattern in one of the honey badgers (perish the thought, but work with me here) and felt like I wanted to reach out and say, hey, that thing you’re doing looks awfully familiar, are you OK and if not can I help? How well do you think that would go? Chances of them trusting me – very low. So even if I genuinely wanted to help, they might not take an attempt to reach out that way.
“What does a man have to do? Look like Ryan Gosling or have George Clooney’s charisma or have lots of money.”
Tell me something – when was the last time you saw a woman in a romantic leading role, the size of Jonah Hill in “Get him to the Greek” or Marlon Brando in ‘Don Juan deMarco”? (or as ‘differently handsome’ as either of those men?)
When was the last time you saw front page news articles about a male makeup ‘failure’ like we saw with Angelina Jolie in May?
When was the last time you saw an article about any male actor’s cellulite? Or failed/suspected/undone boob job? (yes men have them too)
You act like girls are the only ones making a choice about who to date, in a world where Esquire now thinks it’s worth noting the amazing fact that 42 year old women are now considered ‘fuckable’
Get over yourself. Men are held to standards, yes, and things like male eating disorders and body dysphoria are real and growing problems, but women are held to *impossible* standards and always have been – must be pretty (but not be wearing visible makeup), must not be too old, or too heavy, must be duly submissive, etc. In fact, everything on this list to be considered ‘beautiful’.
Ugly, unpleasant and abusive men like Geoffrey Edelstein or Donald Trump can still catch a pretty woman because of their money. A rich woman wouldn’t dare treat a man like rich men treat women – and guess what, rich women who date younger are mocked for it. Men are envied.
I’m short, plain and fat. Always have been. You don’t get to lecture women like me how we are too picky. Men treated me like a joke date, and the kind of girl only a loser could want – to my face. Men who, objectively, were about as attractive as rat turds, personality wise. But all that matter was I was considered too ugly for them.
Oh, and lower class people often dress *better* than high class people (however you define it, I’m using economically), because they *don’t* get a pass because of their lack of wealth. Rich people can and do wear whatever shit they want to. Brad Pitt, famous actor. can get away with this shabby crap because of his status.
Brad Pittman, unknown bloke on unemployment benefits looking for work? Not so much
Duh genius, we already knew it was a reference to Apep/Apophis – why do you think I posted the picture of Bast giving him what-for?
As for your idiocy, hello, Apep was the demon, not the hero. He was the one trying to screw things up. Take your martyr complex elsewhere.
Oh, and citation needed for the shit about feminism promoting rape and looting of men. That’s so stupid it’s funny.
Ann Somerville – gah, Geoffrey Edelsten. ::hurl::
“::hurl::”
Yes, I *know*. Chundering along with you :(
Saw a picture of him in the paper yesterday … he seems to think he’s a 25-year-old bikie. Imagine if a woman his age dressed like that? He gets laughed at, yes, but the press would do a metaphorical evisceration if he were female.
I just wish he’d either lose the hair dye, shave his head, or maybe go halves with Donald on that rug.
What’s a diety pass? Is it a pass that you can only fit through after you’ve been on a diet?
“He gets laughed at, yes, but the press would do a metaphorical evisceration if he were female.”
You mean like they did Kim Novak this year?
Seriously, who’s grosser? Kim or Geoffrey?
But I bet Apeppyphos can’t guess which of the two people in this picture the press attacked over their appearance (hint, it’s the one with big breasts)
Actress in doesn’t look like she did 60 years ago shocker!
When did Cassandra say you were oppressing her by being a slob? What are you even talking about?
Nice attempt at backpedalling. No sale. You said that “low class” women get away with looking like slobs and men can’t do that. You did actually say men were scrutinized more than women which is complete bullshit as Ann Somerville already demonstrated.
As someone who was only thin when I had an eating disorder and was surviving on 200 calories a day, you really to need to fuck right off. You think it’s just so easy for all women to just be thin and pretty? Fuck you. This statement was extremely offensive to me.
This is so wrong it hurts. For years body image issues was considered a stupid girls problem. A sign of weakness and vanity.
This is changing now. Why? Because in the past few years male standards of beauty have become as rigid and unattainable as female standards. Now guys feel just as shitty as we do so now it’s suddenly a real and important topic. Trust me, I did not have white knights rushing to coddle my feelings 10 or 15 years. I was gaslighted and made to feel stupid and crazy for letting media images get to me.
Once again, fuck off. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. I’m sorry that you’re experiencing body image issues. But don’t come here and blame us for that. We aren’t the ones promoting rigid beauty standards and we aren’t the ones promoting materialism.
Hah, I missed his specifically whining at me earlier. Learn to read, dummy.
Shall I piss him off even more by letting him know that I’m watching videos of a hot guy dancing right now? I’m the last person who’d ever say that being super attractive isn’t useful for men too, it’s just that not being attractive doesn’t carry the same penalties for men as it does for women at all (even in professions where looks count for a reason, like acting or music). For men being pretty is a bonus, for women it’s required. Anyone who’s failed to notice this fact until now – hello and welcome to our planet, please enjoy your stay.
(Trying to avoid finishing something for work because I’ve listened to way too many new albums in a row and my brain has reached maximum absorption capacity. Pretty boys in tight pants make great brain bleach.)
Shall I further piss troll boy off by recommending Google image searching for hot guys in kilts?
See, I can’t do sexy plus kilts because the person I most associate kilts with is my dad, and that’s just weird.
Also, wasn’t there a hot guys with cats Tumblr at some point? I feel like that pretty much sums up the het section of the female manboobz commentariat. It’s like misandry squared, all they need to do is add some candles.
That’s why he wants to be a snake. Slither through those passes reeeeeal easy.
Sexy man in a kilt?
(Though this isn’t going to happen, I just did it to see how good he’d look in a kilt, but nope, he ain’t wearing them. Oh well, I can dream.)
The Google results for hot guys with cats.
@WWTH
I think that Apop took Cassandra’s statement of “Women are held to rigid standards of aesthetics and this is oppressive” to mean “MEN LOOKING LIKE SLOBS OPPRESSES WOMEN!!111!!!one!!” Because, you know, what feminists want is for everyone to be equally forced into narrow, arbitrary standards of beauty and attractiveness and expect men to conform to these ridiculous standards as well, instead of promoting a culture where people’s physical appearance isn’t a factor in their worth as a human being.
Hot guys and cats make a perfect combination, but I have to question the wisdom of using a be-clawed lion club as a crotch cover.
Right now he’s kind of amusing me by whining (oppressing, not so much). Women having physical preferences is oppression! Women being required to be pretty in order to get/hang on to non appearance related jobs is not oppressive, because boners and feminazis!
@Apep
Women have to also do a lot of work in order to be considered conventionally attractive. Far more actually because their bodies are scrutinized more. (And if you think men don’t scrutinize women’s bodies far more than men’s, you probably live on another planet.) In any case, most men I know who are in relationships aren’t buff at all. They simply have fewer standards to adhere to. Women are a sex class, and therefore they are scrutinized more because patriarchy requires women to always be considerate of the “needs” of men.
Nice transmisogyny, asshole – not all women have the same plumbing. Also, you really haven’t proven anything. Your male privilege obscures your ability to understand the shit that women go through due to objectification and unfair misogynistic beauty standards. Check your privilege, dude.
Non-celebrity hot guys with cats: http://hotguyswithcats.com/
A great deal of variety in character of hotness! Excellent for the het female Mammotheer consumption!
Ryan Gosling is the only man in America who’s getting laid. It are a fact.
or any Mammotheer who likes men and cats.
I didn’t mean to be exclusive!