Debate: Matt Binder of the Majority Report vs. Paul Elam of A Voice for Paul Elam

So there’s a LIVE debate tonight between Matt Binder of the Majority Report with Sam Seder and a fellow you may have heard of by the name of Paul Elam. Since Elam evidently refused to debate on the Majority Report — for some reason he doesn’t like to debate people when he doesn’t control the venue — Matt Binder agreed to debate on A Voice for Men, with Dean Esmay as the, ahem, neutral moderator. It’s at 6 PM Eastern.

I expect some shenanigans.

Here’s the video that inspired Elam’s debate challenge:

Here’s Matt’s video accepting the challenge:

Check out Matt’s other videos on Men’s Rightsers and our dear friend Stefan Molyneux.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon,, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on July 10, 2014, in a voice for men, antifeminism, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, YouTube and tagged , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 209 Comments.

  1. Ah, Woody. Paul could have spent the entire debate quietly sculpting a pile of mashed potatoes and you would have declared him the ultimate debate winner.

    I would love to watch Binder debate JudgyBitch, although it would probably just be Binder making similar points as he did here, while Judgy just shouts a string of “whore” and “cunt” insults at him, and saying that the debate isn’t going to happen while it’s in the middle of happening.

  2. Argenti, there was a mini-series? Cool. If nothing else, that would hopefully allow for more time and more detail than a film.

    It was somewhat hampered by being made for US network television, which meant that a certain amount of censorship was done and the pacing interrupted by commercials. (It also had some really unfortunate CGI and proved that while the hedge animals sounded plenty scary in the book, seeing them in action looked more like something Tim Burton would’ve done.)

    [I freely admit to being both a fan of the Kubrick film and acknowledging that it’s a terrible adaptation of the novel. But then a lot of good horror films deviate wildly from their sources– see pretty much every movie version of Dracula ever.]

  3. Is there somewhere I can go to watch the video that won’t do counts towards AVfM’s website or their YouTube channel? I haven’t watched it as I don’t want them to get more views.

  4. WatermelonSugar


    Matt and Co. have it up here:

  5. Thanks, I’m now in minute 3 and it hasn’t started yet /yawn.

  6. Nequam — I liked the movie, miniseries, and book, for different reasons. You’re so right about the hedges though!

    Keeping this spoiler free, but you know the difference between the book ending and the movie? Yeah, the miniseries ends how it’s supposed to.

  7. Oh wow. “Can we ask for clarification if needed?” “No, well, you can, but it’ll be answered in the next block of time” — so they’re gonna talk for four minutes and if someone doesn’t hear something clearly, or isn’t sure what definition someone is using, you can argue wih thin air for your four minutes? No wonder Binder is so willing to get his clarifications on his time. Unfortunately, I can see Elam abusing that to no end.

    Also, I keep expecting Binder to have a cat interrupt, not sure why.

  8. Wow Paul, continue to insult your debating opponents, stay classy. I thought Matt was good, he actually debated. Paul just seemed to want to read a prewritten script. And the script was just soundbites (with factually incorrect points), so there was no point being made by Elam.

  9. He’s reading word for word. Not even just notes. Elam is effectively monologuing.

  10. One of the major signs of a cult is when a setback is reinterpreted as a victory.

    I mean, even the AVFM regulars seem to be able to see that they got stomped. But will they spin it? Will they refuse to believe it?

    In three weeks, will they talk about how they kicked Matt Binder’s butt?

    My money’s on yes.

  11. How did I manage to sit through all of that?!

    Elam seriously had a prepared end statement. Can you imagine a lawyer having closing arguments that were made before knowing what the other party would say?

    Let’s see…4 minutes a block, 4 blocks, 2 min closing…Elam had 18 min (more like 20 since he took his extra 30 seconds nearly every time and Esmay borked the timer once [to Esmay’s credit, he did give Binder more time to match that error])…of that he spent what, call it 6 min tops? speaking off the cuff. So at least 2/3rds of what he said was prepared statements. Binder seemed to only be referencing paper for quotes and numbers. So score one debate point for Binder. Actually, make it two, since he was actually replying to his opponent.

    I’m not sure what the topic was supposed to be, so no points to anyone for staying on it. Subjective view of who seemed to care more about men’s issues and be more informed? Elam loses that one too. I’m particularly fond of how false rape accusations aren’t about rape but civil rights. I guess to Elam they wouldn’t be — that would imply that rape ever occurs — might as well be saying that protesting the sale of unicorn horns is about unicorns and not fraud, at least to Paul “I’d always vote to aquit in a rape case” Elam.

    Random point to Pecunium, for being better off the cuff about damned near anything than Elam was about his pet topic.

    So Binder: 3; Elam: 0 (-1 for not staying on topic when Binder asked him a question on his own time?); Pecunium: 1.

    Congrats Pecunium, you did better in a debate you weren’t in than Elam did!

  12. Howard — you watch it? At least watch the last 7 min or so. Binder gets loud, gives an impassioned closing statement. I give it about another 24 hours before they’re tauting how Elam kept his cool while being attacked and got Binder all riled up. Nevermind that he was quite loudly imploring them to address X Y and Z issues that men actually face and saying that AVfM doesn’t do shit, it’s feminists you see working on things.


    Can someone teleport me some coffee? And as for Spot! That! Fallacy! I’d need Elam’s paper speeches and a red pen for that.

  13. I just watched the whole thing. Binder tore Elam apart. Elam knows it. He tried to laugh it off, but the Stefan M/Elliot R quote just broke him. Elam was rattled afterwards. His prepared statements just looked absolutely pathetic beside the articulate, energised younger man.

    Nobody, except the most deluded MRA, could have seen that as anything other than an embarrassing failure from Elam.

  14. I watched all of it.

    My god what a mess. I don’t know what Elam thought was going to happen. Binder prepped. Not as well as he could have; but he doesn’t have the years of practice with the Manosphere we do.

    Binder came into it looking for something like a classical debate, and he was ready for that: he had notes, but not canned speeches (I used to do formal debate in college, one works from cues, and fills in the phrases as needed to respond to the opponents case, or arguments [if one is in favor of the resolution, one has a case, if one is against, it one has arguments; because the tone of the debate is set by the affirmative side.] one doesn’t have speeches scripted out).

    Elam has no flexibility. It was much like Esmay on Fox. The point was to say the right things, and count on the other side not picking them up. It’s a functional tactic on a television morning show, because is no real format. So Esmay got away with it.

    This wasn’t unstructured. Elam couldn’t get away with that unless Binder was a complete idiot, which he turned out not to be. Elam was back-footed with the Monlyneux quotation, which shows several things: Elam doesn’t vett his allies. If they say something he likes, they are on his side; and remain there so long as they don’t rock Elam’s boat.

    Moreover Elam has zero sense of how the statements he, and his allies make, when taken out of the echo-chamber of the manosphere. That’s the “context” they get taken out of. So, stripped of the inanities about how men are oppressed, and women rule the world, and tease the slavering beasts which inhabit male bodies (see Elam, Paul: begging for it), and taken at their face value, The idea that “women need to be put in their place, and punished for their free will; which is one of Molyneux’s primary shibboleths, Elam knows it sounds bad.

    The terrifying thing is, he doesn’t recognise it for his own rhetoric. He doesn’t recall that what Binder asked him about was something he’d heard Molyneux say last week. The self-awareness required to recall that isn’t in him. So when he hears something, outside the protective bubble which is AVfM, or r/Mensrights, which he is perfectly willing to agree with, he denies it.

    He denies it even though he was trumpeting it last week. Which is why he can’t afford to get the larger stage he claims to want. He’s not ready for prime time. This was like the Battle of Britain, in which Germany could only lose (seriously, for all the drama of the air battles, so long as England had destroyers, there was no way Germany could invade. All Göring’s vainglorious campaign could do was wear out his pilots, destroy his materiel, and make England look both doughty, and indomitable. The moment they decided on coming forth to fight, they were doomed).

    So AVfM can’t afford to have an open argument. They can barely afford to let the press into the dog and pony show which was their conference (and that wouldn’t have happened without the drama of the “threats”).

    So, tactically, he gambled that Binder wouldn’t take him up on the offer. That he lost. He did have the sense to know he couldn’t afford to fight on anything other than home ground.

    On balance… a draw. He lost on points, but didn’t suffer the crushing defeat which would have come with a moderator, and a real audience.

    The Best Thing for feminism, is more hubris on the part of the Manosphere.

  15. You know how they keep claiming the MRM isn’t only for white men? If it wasn’t they’d already have known about stop and frisk.


  16. magnesium:

    Paul could have spent the entire debate quietly sculpting a pile of mashed potatoes and you would have declared him the ultimate debate winner.

    In fairness, that would have been a better debate.

    By better, I mean “less excruciating”.

  17. Oh blockquote mammoth, I had evaded you for SO LONG.

  18. I was pleasantly surprised. Matt did great :)

  19. TW for transphobia:

    Okay, this took me by surprise: I have this vague acquaintance who sometimes makes vaguely anti-feminist statements, like how he’s “sceptical” of feminism and prefers equalitism and stuff like that. Once he clarified that this is because he was so oppressed by feminists when he was young.
    You’re thinking: Someone who’s been reading/watching too much MRA crap, right?
    Well, today I just found out that he’s trans. It’s totally not secret, it’s just that it’s never come up in conversation… He just assumed that I had known this all along, he’s like “it’s on my Facebook profile that I’m trans”, and I’m like “I don’t usually read people’s Facebook profiles, so I just missed out on that piece of information”. Anyway, apparently he had been pretty involved with some feminist groups when he was young, that were unfortunately terribly TERF:y. When he came out as trans and began transitioning they were absolutely terrible and kept harassing him to the point where they actually put (literal) shit through his mailbox.
    I guess the lesson to be learned here is that in a hundred or thousand men who claim to have been oppressed by feminists, one or two is telling the truth.

  20. Dvärghundspossen, I’m sorry your friend went through that. What a terrible thing to do to someone.

  21. I know! Such pointless cruelty that it’s just baffling.

  22. Dvärghundspossen — if anyone says they were harassed by TERfs my answer is gonna be “yeah, that sounds like them, sorry they targeted you”. I’m other words, color me completely unsurprised. I mean, I spell it with a little f because fuck it if I’m pulling a No True Scotsman, but they aren’t feminists in my book, radical or otherwise.

    Pecunium — “(I used to do formal debate in college, one works from cues, and fills in the phrases as needed to respond to the opponents case, or arguments [if one is in favor of the resolution, one has a case, if one is against, it one has arguments; because the tone of the debate is set by the affirmative side.] one doesn’t have speeches scripted out).”

    I know right?! Even if you’re the affirmative side, you need some idea wtf your opponent is gonna raise as arguments so you can counter the points they actually raise, countering the points in your head doesn’t do anyone any good! F’ex, if you think all pro-lifers think hormonal BC is abortion, and are debating abortion with one who just said that if BC fails, Plan B is acceptable, but after that abortion should only be in cases of [things], you don’t then give a “ha, I’m right, you think the pill is murder!!” speech. It’s just fucking dumb. It’ll make your allies shake their heads at you, at best.

    To call for a debate, set the terms, and not have a damned clue how to respond to what your opponent might say…the hubris would astound me if this weren’t within the manosphere.

  23. PS the cat decided to wait until I switched to QI to lay down on my keyboard, including the space bar. She turned youtube into a broken record AFTER I was done with the “debate”! Silly kitty, why’d you go and pause/unpause/pause QI and not the shit that was Elam’s attempt at a debate?

  24. Dvärghundspossen, that’s horrible. I’m sorry your friend had to live through that, and sorry that there are people out there who think treating someone like that is acceptable. :(

  25. WatermelonSugar

    @Dvärghundspossen–I am sorry your friend had to experience such hate. TERFs confuse me to now end–how can you fight oppression with more oppression?–and I hate that your friend was subjected to something so vile. Sending sweet thoughts his (and your) way.

    On the debate–

    Can we even call this a debate? If this was a debate, I frequently debate with my dog (by which I mean I talk to him when he gets in a barking fit, suggest other things to do other than barking, and he responds by barking).

    Seriously, I think Paul is spinning out of control. His ego got boosted by his Conference to End All Conferences (for whatever reason), and he is riding some bizzare high from it–it seems like he feels invincible.

    He has called out CAFE, raged against the MSM, issued random challenges to various journalists, raged awkwardly on twitter and reddit, and now had this super strange non-debate with, let’s be honest, someone who is not that important to either the MRM or the feminist movement. Despite the fact that he has had his ass handed to him on each ocassion, he is still riding that ego high and can’t recognize that any of his actions have been wrong in the slightest.

    So. I guess the conerence was good for that, at least? Any credibility the movement could have gained from it has been undone twice over by Paul’s ego trip in the aftermath.

  26. WatermelonSugar

    Gah, so many typos! Sorry, y’all. I have dyslexia pretty hardcore, so it’s hard for me to catch misspellings (especially with words that have a lot of vowels), even when I re-read. Please forgive me!

  27. what I love is that Elam had this whole thing planned out, his victory was crucial and you can tell this was supposed to be his moment to shine and trample Binder. Except he didn’t.

    He chose the fight, he was on his own turf, he had very strong rhetoric planned out to the seconds. I mean, he was supposed to spend ever second of his allotted time humiliating and wasting his opponent reputation which was apparent by the ALREADY WRITTEN conclusion which was formulated to make an example out of Binder and expose him as an ideological hack. But he didn’t.

    What did happen, was Elam getting wrecked along with his entire movement(Because Binder’s criticism was of the MRM as a whole) by someone who was armed with little more than some likely preparation and quotes. Elam was left trying his best to attack Binder head on but he couldn’t even address his own criticisms truthfully, or even at all. It was great. Binder wasn’t even fully prepared. It wasn’t a flawless victory but it didn’t need to be. Elam lost and lost hard. He had all of his chips in and did everything he could to win it but lost due to the simple fact that the MRM has no ground to stand on, nor does he.

  28. Does anyone know at what point the Elliot Rodger quote debacle happens? I don’t have any desire to sit through the whole thing. I just want to see that entertaining humiliation.

  29. WatermelonSugar


    Right around 8:00, if I remember correctly?

  30. Can we even call this a debate? If this was a debate, I frequently debate with my dog (by which I mean I talk to him when he gets in a barking fit, suggest other things to do other than barking, and he responds by barking).

    Hahaha! All typos are forgiven after that! (They would be anyway.)

    Today the AVFM denizens have convinced themselves that Elam wiped the floor with Matt. Whatever, dudes.

    I don’t believe Dean hadn’t heard of stop and frisk. I think it was just a ploy to get out of addressing Matt’s accusation that AVFM had ignored the issue.

  31. Off topic but have you all seen this amazing misandry gif?

  32. Today the AVFM denizens have convinced themselves that Elam wiped the floor with Matt. Whatever, dudes.

    Well, that didn’t take long.

  33. WatermelonSugar

    That is the best. Lions are notorious Misandrite. (That is supposed to be “m i s a n d r i s t s, but I will leave it because I think my phone is right in not thinking that is a real word.)

    Also OT, but Salon has their conference article up and it is amazing:

  34. I don’t believe Dean hadn’t heard of stop and frisk. I think it was just a ploy to get out of addressing Matt’s accusation that AVFM had ignored the issue.

    Well, either he’s disingenuously trying to sidestep real mens’ issues, or he has no clue what real mens’ issues are.

    Both seem equally likely to me.

  35. The thing I noticed with the Molyneux quotation is that Binder didn’t even try to hide it. It was telegraphed; but still Elam couldn’t do anything with it. Why? Because it’s a hateful line of argument which is not substantially different from that of Elliot Rodger.

  36. I can totally believe AVfM doesn’t know about Stop and Frisk. Since their isn’t any direct connection between the rationale for the policy and “women”, there’s no reason for it to come up on their radar.

  37. @WatermelonSugar

    That truly was an excellent, thoughtful article. I wasn’t wild about this, though:

    Under the leadership of its increasingly media-savvy leader Paul Elam, A Voice for Men seems to be one step further from the status of an alarmist fringe group and one step closer to being a considerable social force.

    Media-savvy??? That’s laughable. The idea of it becoming a “considerable social force” is ludicrous, IMO. It would be alarming if there was any chance of that.

  38. WatermelonSugar


    I thought it sounded a lot like Jessica Roy’s article, to be honest. The moral was the same: these men have a valid need for help and they are not finding it in A Voice for Men.

    On Paul being media savvy, eh. He’s definitely more so than AVFM’s resident PR maven, that’s for sure. And he is, to his credit, really good at branding his bullshit across the Internet–he is visable, he has his fingers in the cookie jar of most major MRAs, and he is profiting. He has to be at least a little savvy to do that, but that doesn’t detract from the fact that he is still just the most savvy of a group of really not-savvy people.

    As far as the “social force” or whatever, I doubt that Paul will ever lead his brand of hate off the Internet and into the real world. His brand of “savvy” sort of limits him here–he is a viable online persona, but shrinks when other people or real life social settings are envolved. At least, I seriously hope that is the case.

  39. dvarghundspossen,
    I’m sorry those women were so horrible to your friend. That’s unconscionable.
    Don’t sweat it. Dyslexia happens. :) Hubby, eldest and I all have it to different extents.

  40. WatermelonSugar


    Thanks! Sometimes dyslexia is fun, spelling errors aside. It makes reading–or rather, misreading–MRA article titles really fun.

    Also, fun fact: dyslexia is carried on the mother’s genes. Misandry!

  41. Paul could have spent the entire debate quietly sculpting a pile of mashed potatoes and you would have declared him the ultimate debate winner.

    He would have come out looking *better* had he done that.

  42. Elam’s savvy is limited. He knows how to rile up a base. That base is reactionary, and somewhat self-limiting. Their passions get the better of them. It’s not that people such as Elam can’t be dangerous (they laughed at Il Duce, when he started) but they need someone to prop them up as then enter the wider world (Mussolini was paid to break up striking farmworkers, that gave him a band of armed, violent, and practised thugs).

    Absent someone with money and leverage deciding Elam is a useful tool, he’s pretty much contained. He’s crap at organising. and not all that charismatic. That doesn’t mean his ideology can’t spawn terrorism, it can. The entire point of, “The Turner Diaries” is on how to create a decentralised terrorism, so that it can’t be tracked down in toto.

    The idea is to change the zeitgeist to the point the “Lone Wolves” no longer need fear the wolfhounds, and the Black Shirts can be worn in public.

    I don’t see AFvM, managing that level of political change, not with their leet skillz working the press. They are a dangerous echo-chamber, something of a pressure cooker, but not yet likely to explode.

    And the know it. That’s why Elam has been scrubbing the archives. which started some time ago, when he finally took the Ball Manifesto off the, “activism” page,and continued with the cleaning up of the more egregious evidence of misogyny; the stuff even they can’t convince themselves will be overlooked.

  43. WWTH — launch the video, watch them fail miserably at setting ground rules and getting the tech working, skip 3 min when Elam starts talking. It’s pretty much the first thing Binder says, and those four minutes are a great example of Elam’s inability to be rational (you need to see the discussion of ground rules to see how bad he really is)

  44. @WatermelonSugar: adding my voice to the ones that have said it was not acceptable to have that happen to your friend.

    WTF gets into the heads of people who do that kind of thing? It has just reminded me of something long forgotten: an acquaintance when I was a teenager who had low IQ and couldn’t read social situations well, but was completely fucking harmless, who told me that his co-workers had pulled a joke on him by mixing some sheep shit into his drink and then telling him later. I felt so sorry for him on two levels: (1) that it had happened and (2) that because of the way he had been treated by so many people, he didn’t see that there was anything wrong with it, and was telling me as though it was funny.

    Some people just seem to have taken points out of their empathy tree and put them into improved cruelty.

  45. The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule

    ” It was much like Esmay on Fox. ”

    Wait. What?

  46. @WatermelonSugar

    Can we even call this a debate? If this was a debate, I frequently debate with my dog (by which I mean I talk to him when he gets in a barking fit, suggest other things to do other than barking, and he responds by barking).

    Just saw this, much lulz.

  47. @WatermelonSugar, imagine if your dog debated Elam. I know who’d make more sense and be more entertaining! (And think of the headline – Dog Bites MRA.)

  48. GrumpyOldNurse

    @ Dvärghundspossen : Late to the conversation, but I had to log in to say that sucks that someone did that to your friend!

  49. I’m definitely not anyone’s gay muse. I don’t think I’ve spoken directly to LBT, although I remember them from Pervocracy comments. I would change my user name and add an initial or something, but I’m posting from wordpress so I’m not sure if I can. Orion is my birth name and I’m rather attached to it.

  50. Yes, orion with a lowercase ‘o’ was the asshole who proclaimed to be LBT’s “gay muse”. Orion with a capital ‘O’, by contrast, is cool.

  51. cassandrakitty

    I’m pretty sure muse is a role that someone else has to choose you for, rather than you choosing yourself.

  52. As a red-headed step-child, I wouldn’t know.

  53. “Woody! Please say something to prove that you are a real boy and not made of wood. Consider it a personal challenge.”

    What do you mean?

  54. Shut up, Woody,

  55. What do you think Cassandrakitty is saying Woody? All you ever do is pop in an profess your undying love and devotion to Paul Elam. Can you do anything but parrot (or perhaps rather puppet) statements of how great Elam is?

  56. emilygoddess - MOD

    A rented mule…A meringue…A red-headed stepchild…The Brazilian Soccer Team…Paul Elam

    Know what’s funny? Not child abuse or animal abuse. I know those are preexisting sayings, but frankly, the stepchild one in particular has always made me a tad uncomfortable and as the blog is full of both animal servants lovers and abuse survivors, maybe…don’t?

  57. In the interest of greater clarity:

    This particular Orion is a University of Chicago student in literary and religious texts, a former sex worker, an occasional essayist (ethics, mainly) and an amateur tabletop RPG designer. Also home-schooled, and ten pages into a novel. And desperately impoverished when I’m not living with my parents. I was a developer on After Sundown, and a playtester on Darkest Night. Contrary to popular misconception, I am not the editor of Ideologies of War.

  58. TW: abuse jokes

    A rented mule…A meringue…A red-headed stepchild…The Brazilian Soccer Team…Paul Elam

    What do these all have in common?

    You are so gross. Fuck off.

  59. Phoenician in a time of Romans

    A rented mule…A meringue…A red-headed stepchild…The Brazilian Soccer Team…Paul Elam

    What do these all have in common?

    Worst mangling of the lyrics to “Smells Like Teen Spirit” ever.

  60. Wait… was the answer about beating them?

    Right the fuck out. Asshole.

  61. [CN: child abuse, animal abuse]

    The punchline was supposed to go like this:

    A rented mule is whipped by the person who rents it.
    Meringues are made out of whipped egg whites.
    A red-headed step-child is whipped by their parents.
    The Brazilian Soccer Team was whipped (by the German Soccer Team).
    And Paul Elam was whipped by Matt Binder in that debate.

    It’s a really gross joke, and I’m spoiling the punchline so that anyone who finds the joke triggering can have an easier time identifying why it’s so fucked up.

  62. cassandrakitty

    Why do people think jokes like that will be welcomed here? Learn to read your audience, people.

  63. Seriously though is there a good way to differentiate myself?

  64. Orion: A gravatar?

    If you post regularly, people will recognise even the one assigned by the randomiser, but something like my mushroom, or a catvatar, etc. would do that with more speed.

  65. The completely skewed reaction of the AVfM-ers to the discussion (calling it a “debate” implies both sides actively engaged on even terms!) reminds me of nothing so much as the rusted-on GOP response whenever Sarah Palin made a fool of herself when she was running for VP. Getting schooled by Biden in debates, freezing like a deer in headlights when she was asked to name a newspaper she read…. every single thing was spun by the base as either being a huge victory~! or Teh Ebul Lamestream Media Picking On Her.

    I’m hoping some of the redpillers have started to realise how hollow their movement really is after seeing AVfM’s leader unable to discuss anything rationally. Or is all their criticism simply levelled at his preparation, and still assuming the base doctrine is unassailable?

  66. kittehserf MOD

    Orion, you may want to rethink putting so much personal info on this site. It is read by some very toxic trolls. If you want, that comment can be deleted.

    Using a gravatar to differentiate yourself’s easy. If you click on the blue square next to your name, you’ll get to the Gravatar site. Sign up for it and you can upload whatever pics you want to use.

  67. That might be a good idea. Normally I’m extremely open. It wouldn’t be that difficult to track down any of that information if someone wanted to. But I forget how many hostile reader we have. Thanks.

  68. “Yes, orion with a lowercase ‘o’ was the asshole who proclaimed to be LBT’s “gay muse”. Orion with a capital ‘O’, by contrast, is cool.”

    My mistake Orion! I offer my sincerest apologies for my snafu!


    What does a red headed step child have in common with a mango? (The color, sort of, I’m all wonky sleep wise and needed a mango joke)

  69. Well that was days late and dollars short >.<;;

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