Defenders of A Voice for Men tell Time magazine reporter “we have to SCARE you into listening,” you “stinky … human monkey.”

The High Council of Feminism holds a meeting.

The High Council of Feminism holds a meeting.

Jessica Roy, a reporter for Time magazine covering A Voice for Men’s recent :”Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, found herself the target of a vitriolic tirade from AVFM maximum leader Paul Elam before she even sat down to write her account of her time amongst the MRAs.

Elam, evidently incensed about a handful of sarcastic remarks that Roy tweeted during the conference, denounced her as, among other things, a “hack,” “a liar and bigot” and a practitioner of “journalistic scumtardery,” whatever that is. Commenters on A Voice for Men happily joined in the hate, denouncing her as an “airhead,” a “disgrace and a liar,” “lil’ miss hair-o’or-her-eyes,” and a “little asshole [who] will look like a right nazi in five-to-ten years time.” Amazingly, no one pulled out the c-word. Evidently AVFMers are still on their best behavior.

Roy’s “What I Learned as a Woman at a Men’s Rights Conference” appeared on on Wednesday. Far from the hack job Elam and pals were predicting, her piece turned out to be a long, thoughtful and nuanced account that, while skeptical of AVFM and its brand of hateful nonsense, displayed considerable sympathy for some of the troubled men she met at the conference, men who could benefit from a movement that truly tried to offer solutions for men in difficulty instead of encouraging them to scapegoat feminists and women.

Reflecting on her discussions with several conference attendees, Roy wrote,

When you talk to someone like 68-year-old Steve DeLuca, the legitimate need to remedy some of the issues raised by men’s rights activists becomes more evident. A Vietnam veteran who was injured in combat, DeLuca spoke movingly to me about the two brothers he lost to suicide, and the unfathomable toll the high suicide rate among men can take. There are men out there, like DeLuca and [rape survivor] Brendan Rex, who have a real stake in the movement’s success. The paranoia and vitriol of its leaders can’t possibly do anything for them.

So how did AVFM fans respond to this article? By defending their vitriol. On, several commenters denounced Roy as “bigot” and a “fascist,” and suggested that their “righteous anger” was the only appropriate response to the evils of feminism.

DennisMarkham 1 day ago  "The paranoia and vitriol of its leaders can’t possibly do anything for them."   Yes it can.  We are dealing with in irrational, incompassionate society.  When MRAs express their grievances with cool rationality or sadness, it just blows past people like you like a gentle breeze.  Only when we pack some sting does anyone actually listen.   Vitriol is the only way we've ever gotten society to listen.  The MRM has tried to be cool and calm for over 40 years and to no avail.  Maybe when you start taking male suffering seriously instead of dismissing it with "check your privilege" and "man up", that'll change.  But until then, you reap what you sow.  We have to SCARE you into listening.

Never mind that the quote Markham was responding to came from a paragraph in which Roy wrote with sympathy about the suffering of male Veterans and rape survivors.

Meanwhile, an anonymous commenter received upvotes for this, er, nuanced analysis:

Guest 1 day ago  @eltra Our hatred for fascist (mainstream) feminism is hardly rooted in misinformation.  You'd know that had you actually bothered to listen to Erin Pizzey or GirlWritesWhat speaking at the conference.   We ARE wronged because feminism is a bigoted, reverse-sexist, and female supremacist tyranny imposed on us by the male (and female) monkeys who puppeteer for popularity at the top of governments in the whole of the Western world.

In a followup comment, “Guest” doubled-down, suggesting that Roy was a “stinky twit” and a “human monkey.”

Guest 15 hours ago  Look. Based on both their ideology and their behavior, mainstream feminists ARE fascists. The reason they became POWERFUL PC fascists is because good men and good women have mostly been too faint hearted or deluded to condemn them.  Clearly, Biden, Obama and the stinky twit who wrote this article are human monkeys because they damn well do know better but the keep trotting out the same traitorous and misandrist monkey business year after year. It's time remove feminist monkeys from power and find a social cage wherein they can chatter bigoted nonsense to one another more harmlessly. That already happened to the KKK. In time, feminist bigots will also be banned from civil discourse rather than lauded as heroic victims of the patriarchy.  Vitriol is appropriate for fascist bigots who have been defecating an endless load of baseless bigoted vitriol themsexes since the monkey movement began in Seneca Falls. You also need to stop already with the false accusation of misogyny. Sadly, not all feminists are women but, happily, not all women are feminists. To loath the women and men who back Roy's officially coddled hate movement is perfectly REASONable. Be nice to see men pitch to help destroy Erin Pizzey's 'Evil Empire' so that bigots like Roy cannot mock, roidicule and silence anti-feminists and MHRMs on the pages of Time too.

Roy made clear that she learned a good deal at the conference. The defenders of AVFM’s vitriol seem to have learned nothing.

NOTE: Picture of monkey party borrowed from here.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon,, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on July 4, 2014, in a new woman to hate, a voice for men, antifeminism, are these guys 12 years old?, doubling down, douchebaggery, evil women, figurative nazis, harassment, imaginary oppression, incoherent rage, mantrum, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, not-quite-explicit threats, not-quite-plausible deniability, playing the victim, threats, your time will come and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 260 Comments.

  1. LBT: all out of unicorn blood, sorry. I do have some male tears, would those work?

    I love Hot Fuzz. I totally have a crush on Simon Pegg.

  2. cassandrakitty

    Remember when I imaginary friendzoned Simon Pegg? Those were the glory days of misandry.

    (Still want to go drinking with him and Frost – just imagine the fights you’d have over the jukebox.)

  3. Yes, I do remember that, more Pegg for me. See misters, he’s not even standard hot!

    A pub night with those two would destroy my liver, but it’d be worth it.

  4. RE: hellkell

    LBT: all out of unicorn blood, sorry. I do have some male tears, would those work?

    *sigh* Damn unicorns, being so endangered. I suppose if I have to, I can work up a substitution, if anyone else could lend me a condom filled with semen and hot sauce. (I know one of you must have one!)

  5. I admit, Pegg impressed me. Going into Hot Fuzz, I really doubted I could believe him as someone like Nicholas Angel, but he really sold his performance!

  6. LBT: I have frozen, not fresh. That OK?

  7. Argenti Aertheri

    LBT — I will give you stats and facts all you want, but you still can’t have the blood of any of my unicorns!

  8. cassandrakitty

    We just watched World’s End recently. Highly recommended, and the Sisters of Mercy t-shirt was a perfect touch (for people of our generation who’re able to laugh at themselves).

  9. RE: hellkell

    LBT: I have frozen, not fresh. That OK?

    *sigh* This is going to be an AWFUL babycake. Oh well, I’ll just have to make the frosting SUPER-glittery then.

  10. (Did we succeed? Did stats and babycakes drive the pain in the ass away?)

  11. cassandrakitty

    Eh, I’m sure he’s back off to home base to tell them about how all the eevill feminists agreed with the feminists in England (ie, had no idea what he was on about).

  12. Argenti Aertheri

    Don’t forget all the terrible neglect apologia by those of us horrible enough to point out that not all neglect is intentional and that *gasp* intersectionality is a thing.


  13. cassandrakitty

    Ah, now we reach the stage of the spin cycle where he implies that children abused by men are liars.


    RE: rev

    Self-reporting? Post-VAWA law enforcement?

    Dude, you haven’t given one single statistic. You don’t get to complain. (Especially when self-reporting is vital. But I’m not going to bother explaining it to you, because you spin faster than a fucking DJ on speed.)

  15. Rev, do YOU have any unicorn blood? This babycake isn’t going to frost itself you know, and I want something quality to bring the English Feminist Meeting, Sanford chapter.

  16. Where’s your citations, Rev?

  17. @ Casskitty: “It takes a special sort of misogynistic assbag to think that neglect is worse than sexual abuse just because women are the ones doing it.”

    And it takes a typical feminist to qualify child abuse. Felony neglect is more prevalent than child sexual abuse within the home.

  18. Guys! Guys! After three (?) years of posting here, I’m FINALLY going to get to change my icon to something other than a green blotch!

    Quick, should it be a pic of me, the vessel, or a penis with a smiley face on it?

  19. revspinnaker is banned for general dishonesty and being a shit.

  20. And nothing of value was lost. Huzzah!

    (Does my icon work?)

  21. :(

    It does not. Now I remember why it’s taken me three years to get anywhere with this…

  22. Wait, no, I got it!

    HUZZAH! 8D I kinda chose this one at random, but whatever, I can pull something different later if need be. The point is, I finally figured out how to log in to my damn Gravatar and get things changed!

  23. OMG, LBT has an icon!

  24. Argenti Aertheri

    Huzzah!!! x2 — one for bye bye rev, two for LBT!! (I vote for M.D., all “am I gonna have to smash something?”, or Sneak going BLOOP)

    And for anyone actually interested, the link I have him is a meta analysis that goes through the various forms of data collection and the pros and cons of each — that 90% was the same for multiple studies they looked at.

  25. Thank you, David!

    Cassandra: World’s End was so pitch perfect about that time period I felt like I was back in college.

  26. Toysoldier on August 4, 2014 at 4:45 pm said: blah, blah, blah

    Are the anti-Futrellites still going on about Pasolini’s Salo and calling that controversial, but much heralded art film classic “kiddie porn”? The film is wildly available on the blu-ray and DVD in a deluxe edition put out by the best home video company in the US, The Criterion Collection. That doesn’t happen to “kiddie porn”.

    Criterion has a fantastic website so this page has seven essays discussing the film, including
    one by the incomparable Catherine Breillat.

  27. Thanks, David. What an ass — implying that because I explained why child abuse was commonly committed by women that meant it was okay. A lying little shit.

  28. cassandrakitty

    Every time I come into contact with the spin doctor I feel like I need a shower.

  29. emilygoddess - MOD

    I checked out the Reddit thread discussing these “accusations” and there are MRAs joking about how we’d totally throw David under the bus if he was a pedophile. And I’m like, of fucking course we would. Any movement that wouldn’t throw out pedophiles is not a movement I want to be involved with.

    Also, why did Spinaker choose this thread to necro? Surely a message as important as “this man is a pedo apologist” deserves not to be buried in an old thread? One might almost suspect that the “gotcha” was the main goal here, rather than informing people of a potential predator…

    LBT, you got your avatar working!


    You’re all sounding like those rioting little censors in Toronto, silencing the opposition in the name of “equality.”

    LOL, now they were rioting? I propose we call this sort of exaggeration “the boxcutter effect”.

    Also, MRA dudes, get a new example. If the worstest oppression evar happened to you over a year ago, you’re pretty unoppressed.

    between 25 % -30% of sexual abuse

    Which means men are committing 70-75% of the sexual abuse. How are women the villains in this one?

    On a more general note: as someone who was abused by a woman, and watched the same woman abuse my father and brother, I fucking hate this concern trolling with a passion. You don’t give an actual fuck about the victims of female abusers. You just want to use us to advance your woman-hating agenda. I hope you step on Legos for eternity.

    Sparky (and LBT) — the other thing with neglect, and why I’m not surprised it’s where women do outnumber men, is that the non-abusive causes are almost certainly more common among single mothers. Can’t afford medical care, a well stocked pantry, etc? Well, who makes up the largest percent of people in poverty? (Last I checked it was *drum roll* CHILDREN!)

    It’s almost like these things intersect or something…

    Also, in a culture where the father is expected to work outside the home and have far less contact with the child than the mother, what would paternal neglect even look like?

    I suppose if I have to, I can work up a substitution, if anyone else could lend me a condom filled with semen and hot sauce. (I know one of you must have one!)

    I did, but since spermjacking was the whole point, I have already emptied the contents into my vagina. Fortunately, I’ve spent years slowly building up a vaginal immunity to hot sauce in anticipation of this very trick, and I look forward to neglecting the kid and collecting that sweet, sweet child support money in just a few months. I promise to buy you all a round of bonbons as thanks for sharing your misandering secrets with me!

  30. kittehserf MOD

    LBT has an icon!


  31. Argenti Aertheri

    Emilygoddess — well, presumably the same thing, but in practice I strongly suspect that any neglect in a two parent household (where the neglect wasn’t obviously intentional on the part of the father) the blame would fall on the mother. It is, as you allude, her job to take care of the kids. Further, I suspect she might get more shit than a single mother — since obvs her husband is being a good father and bringing home money so why isn’t she spending it on the kids?! Not that single mothers don’t get hell simply for existing, so idk how that would all play out statistically speaking, socially speaking though? I totally see his working being used to further blame her, regardless who’s at fault.

    Which probably means fathers are only getting blamed when they’re obviously intentionally neglectful, or single fathers. The former deserves blame, the later is both outnumbered by single mothers and less likely to be in poverty.

    I would really love it if anyone has any good academic stuff on the causes of neglect and what forms it takes in practice. I’m curious, for example, when it’s medical neglect how much is willfully not getting the kid to a doctor and how much is economic concerns (and then there’s the religious//belief factor, are anti-vaxxers neglectful? Parents who refuse certain treatments on religious grounds have been denied the legal right to do so, so the kid’s life does trump religious freedom…but that’s an ethics debate, not a statistical question)

  32. I did, but since spermjacking was the whole point, I have already emptied the contents into my vagina. Fortunately, I’ve spent years slowly building up a vaginal immunity to hot sauce in anticipation of this very trick, and I look forward to neglecting the kid and collecting that sweet, sweet child support money in just a few months. I promise to buy you all a round of bonbons as thanks for sharing your misandering secrets with me!

    Now I kind of want one of us to create a fake feminist tumblr, sprinkle it with a few vaguely feminist posts, and then make a post about how feminists are teaching women to build up their vaginal immunity to hot sauce in order to further our spermjacking activities. And then post it to /r/TumblrInAction, wait until it gets x-posted to /r/MensRights, and then butter our popcorn and watch the histrionics.

  33. cassandrakitty

    Do it!

  34. emilygoddess - MOD

    I’d contribute!

  35. cassandrakitty

    We should also make a fake Etsy site that offers cute hand-knitted spermjacked condom holders.

  36. emilygoddess - MOD

    Recipes for hot sauce antidotes! The best methods for condom tampering! DIY fake BC pills to fool the guy into thinking you won’t conceive! Maybe an April Fools issue of the Borg is in order?

  37. Yay! LBT is something other than a green quilt block! Huzzah!

    And double-huzzah to the banning of the troll. What a disingenuous little shit.

  38. I just watched a 10 facts about WWI video that said sperm was used as invisible ink. Apparently some (spy?) dude had to be warned to only use fresh sperm because older ejaculate was smellier (and therefore more detectable by the enemy).

    Found a link about it here:

  39. I’m sorry, but between sperm recipes (WHY) and sperm ink, I’m about ready to hurl.

  40. Completely unable to miss this opportunity, hopefully this will make you laugh hellkell:

    Was a hundred years ago today
    Sgt. Pepper taught the spies to play
    They’ve been going in and out awhile
    They’re guaranteed to raise more than a smile
    So may I introduce to you
    The act’s been hidden for all these years
    Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Gland

    What was wrong with lemon juice?

  41. “Maybe an April Fools issue of the Borg is in order?”

    But it isn’t April…otherwise I’d be down with this. Granted, summer posting has been, uh, sparse. So calling it some summer fun could work? Stick shit up as drafts and I’ll send a mass mail to take a look and get group consensus? (You can edit? Or do you need that power? Drop me a line if you need powers!)

  42. emilygoddess - MOD

    Haha, I figured we’d have to wait until April! IDK if I can edit, I’ve never checked since I’ve never had enough confidence in my writing to submit anything.

  43. Email me your modship (like lordship, but with mods) — I’ll get you set up. You can always post brain bleach (it has its own page!) to get your toes wet :)

  44. @pallygirl… I’d heard the Romans used urine as invisible ink( and mouthwash), but semen as invisible ink…
    They put themselves into their work, MI6 did.

    Lemon juice would react to iodine, I guess, as would pee.

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