With A Voice for Men’s conference over, Paul Elam has found a new woman to hate.

Paul Elam: Voice of reason in the gender debate?

Paul Elam: Voice of reason in the gender debate?

You’ll all be glad to hear that Paul Elam has returned to normal. Well, normal for him.

After several days of doing his best impression of someone who isn’t a rage-filled attention misogynist, he’s back to his old woman-bashing self. You’ll also be happy to learn that he’s found a brand new woman to hate:  Time reporter Jessica Roy, who is apparently quite stinky.

elamJessica

I’ve heard rumors that most females are stinky, actually.

Roy, who is covering the conference for Time, hasn’t even published her account yet. Her crimes so far? She tweeted some appalling quotes from some of the talks at the conference and made clear that she was not having a good time amongst the assembled assholes human rights activists.  A selection:

Oh, and she tweeted a photo showing the backs of a bunch of dudes’ heads at the conference:

jessicaTweethead

As a result of these dastardly crimes against manhumanity, Elam has declared Roy to be:

  • a “low rent hack”
  • “a SWJ in all her hateful glory”
  • “a liar and a bigot [who]will be exposed”
  • a practitioner of “journalistic scumtardery”

Elam also boasts that whatever she writes about the conference –  like all the negative coverage his conference has and will be getting from what he calls the “shallow, clueless and uniformed ideological hacks” of the mainstream media — will drive “more people away from places like TIME and into palaces [sic] like AVFM.”  He also thanks Roy “for the donations that will hit AVFM” from new people recruited to the cause by her writings.

It’s rather revealing that he seems to think the true success of AVFM’s “activism” is measured not by what he and his followers are able to do for men and boys — but by how much money he can pull in. An unknown percentage of which goes directly to him.

Interesting that Adam Serwer, who’s already published a snarky piece about the conference for MSNBC, has not gotten similar treatment. Nor have any of the other male journalists who’ve written critically about the conference.

Wonder why that could be?

Anyway, here’s some more of the press coverage of the conference:

First International Conference on Men’s Issues: Day 2, by Arthur Goldwag, Hatewatch

Goldwag continues his coverage, concluding that

[T]he weekend wasn’t an unalloyed hate fest, though there was plenty of rancor, contempt, defensiveness, and anti-feminism on display. Some of the female speakers were the least restrained in that respect, especially on the contentious issues of domestic violence and sexual coercion and modern women’s infuriating desire to determine their own destinies. Many of the speakers signaled that they were chafing a little under Paul Elam’s no trash-talking rule.

It will be interesting to see how much bridge-building A Voice for Men engages in from here on out … .

Well, I think we already have an answer to this question.

8 ugly observations about conference on men’s rights in metro Detroit, by Steve Neavling, Motor City Muckraker

Neavling, no fan of MRAs, summed up what he saw as the central message of the conference:

The “vast majority” of college women lie about being raped. Men are violent because of their mothers. Feminists are plotting to dominate men.

One thing was ringingly clear among attendees at the first-annual International Conference on Men’s Issues in St. Clair Shores this weekend: Women are becoming an increasing threat and something must be done to stop them.

In addition to highlighting some of the low points of the conference, Neavling also puts the conference in a larger perspective by pointing out some of the more noxious writings of Elam and of the conference’s PR genius Janet Bloomfield.

Sparsely attended ‘men’s rights’ soirée arrives at source of their problems. Hint: It’s women, by TBogg, Raw Story

Drawing heavily on Adam Serwer’s account of the conference, Tbobb concludes:

Yup, the first International Conference on Men’s Issues rolled into Veterans of Foreign Wars Bruce Post 1146 in St. Clair, Michigan, this weekend and over ONE HUNDRED attendees, from all walks of life — if by ‘all walks of life’ you mean: ‘middle-aged divorced white guys with anger management issues’ — came together in brotherhood to address the source of all of the pain and suffering and existential angst that afflicts MANkind.

Resolved: Women are to blame.

Oh, don’t worry; the conference got some positive press as well. From the husband of one of AVFM’s press conference panelists:

A kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars? by Glenn Harlan Reynolds, USA Today

Reynolds — the husband of sometime AVFM contributor “Dr. Helen,” whose bizarrely chipper reckoning of the conference we looked at yesterday — offered up a surreal account of the conference as a kind of cross-gender-love fest:

[T]he thing that struck me most about the gathering was the palpable lack of gender tension. Men and women at this conference seemed to be on the same page, and the same team, in a way that seems almost surprising in these gender-divided times. Maybe that’s because gender-talk, long a female domain, is also now about men. …  As Farrell concluded in a Friday night dinner speech, the goal is “not a men’s movement, not a women’s movement, but a gender liberation movement.”

With men and women both talking and listening, it gave me some hope that perhaps we’ll see something new, and better, in the politics of gender.

Dude, you might want to read that post by Elam before you go all kumbaya on us.

Meanwhile, Sworebytheprecious reports that she was able to infiltrate a post-conference gathering of AVFMers in a hotel lobby and … actually talk to them for some time. At least until Dean Esmay showed up, recognized her, and got her tossed out.

i got the restaurant where they were celebrating and i even found myself sharing a dessert with a very nice redheaded gentleman who works for A Voice for Men, although i have not discovered in what capacity. i also found my way to the hotel where Elam and the inner circle were staying. at about midnight, i spent about two and a half hours talking with GirlWritesWhat, [Barbara] Kay, some guys i don’t know off the top of my head, and some other members. …

i was terrified. it never once stopped my commitment. i went as far as i could.

at about 2 30 am i was pulled away from a very enlightening conversation with Barbara Kay by hotel security and asked to leave. i was in the lobby of the [will add when convention is over]. to my knowledge i had done nothing illegal or caused any disruptions; i doubt my presence would have been welcome with the AVfM staff for long had i posed any real risk. i even allowed one man to take multiple pictures of me and i will describe that interaction in detail later. hotel security was very apologetic with me in any case. i believe Esmay was the instigator because he had been liaison between the table and the front desk. before i left, Esmay and Straughn let everyone know who i was and said “i was part of a hate group” and a journalist who worked for Futrelle. i denied these things, because i do not work for Futrelle. …

the security guard pressed. i left the hotel without incident and waited for my ride.

There’s a lot more to her post, and Swore promises that many more details will be forthcoming.  She’s also going to be staying in Detroit for another week to talk to and report about activists there, and NEEDS MORE MONEY to cover her expenses (though not $25,000). Her gofundme is here.

And no, she doesn’t work for me, or with me. I gave her gofundme a signal boost at one point, and have exchanged some messages with her; that’s the extent of my connection with her. I only found out about her late-night confab when she Tweeted me about it today.

In the Men’s Rights subreddit, they’re worried that she’s going to falsely accuse some AVFMer of rape.

EDIT: Rewrote the big about Swore staying in Detroit because she’s still in need of cash to pay her expenses.

 

 

 

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Posted on June 29, 2014, in a new woman to hate, a voice for men, a woman is always to blame, antifeminism, antifeminist women, FemRAs, harassment, misogyny, MRA, paul elam and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 246 Comments.

  1. Unimaginative

    Not going to Huffpo either, but I strongly suspect wewereemergencies is right. A huge number of people, including the many of us who are Dave, have said often that the MRA talk about legitimate issues of concern, but only to use them to expound on how much they hate women.

    Get that? There are some serious issues facing men that really need to be addressed in a productive, concrete way. Why aren’t MRAs doing that?

  2. wewereemergencies

    We should just start calling each other David, it’d be a lot easier than having to remember all these screen names.

  3. Also, corporations are not people. (Freaking Citizens United)

    I hate the Citizen’s United ruling as much as the next progressive, but it’s Santa Clara vs. Southern Pacific Railroad that established corporate personhood in the US. http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141663195/what-is-the-basis-for-corporate-personhood

    It really enrages me that the 14th amendment, which is intended to protect the civil rights of actual human beings has been abused to the extent that it’s used to give corporations personhood rights they should not have.

    All the same, I’ll throw another fuck you to Scalia in this thread. Just because I think he’s the person I hate most in this world.

  4. The worst thing about Santa Clara is that the creation of corporate personhood wasn’t part of the decision, it was a piece of dicta.

  5. The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule

    That bald guy in the back chair in Jessica Roy’s photo looks like Matt Forney.

  6. The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule

    “The argument that it in fact serves to prevent a life-altering and life-threatening medical condition (pregnancy)”

    Most of the moms I know would object to describing pregnancy as a “medical condition”.

    At the same time, most of them would agree that some form of birth control is a “need” for them. Although they wouldn’t approach it through the mainstream medical establishment, like they don’t approach pregnancy through that either. They are generally against using pharmaceutical drugs that have serious side effects.

    Some use condoms, others use other natural means of bc. None, that I know of, use pills or shots or patches, going by how vocal they are about “big pharma”.

  7. Forgive me if I’m misreading you in some way The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule but the opinions of some mothers you know don’t bear any more weight on my medical decisions (or what I refer to pregnancy as) as anyone else. I’m kind of confused about what you were trying to add with your comment, admittedly.

  8. As annoying as MRAs are, they only exist because of third wave feminism. Get rid of that and the MRAs go with it.

  9. kittehserf MOD

    We should just start calling each other David, it’d be a lot easier than having to remember all these screen names.

    LOL!

  10. Most of the moms I know would object to describing pregnancy as a “medical condition”.

    Yes, it’s a very clinical way to describe it (and I’d understand if moms get annoyed if you joke about things like “a foreign growth in the abdomen), but, well, it is a medical condition. It’s temporary and not the way the human body is by default, so it’s a condition, and it requires a lot of doctor’s visits and often special diets and treatments, so it’s medical.

  11. The full quote was:

    I’ve been arguing all day with people trying to tell me that birth control is a “want”, not a “need”. The argument that it in fact serves to prevent a life-altering and life-threatening medical condition (pregnancy), keeps falling on deaf ears.

    From this page:

    Although they wouldn’t approach it through the mainstream medical establishment, like they don’t approach pregnancy through that either. They are generally against using pharmaceutical drugs that have serious side effects.

    What’s your point?

  12. And the blockquote monster got me. While I missed the console wars, my latest insurgency into the text formatting battle has left me wounded.

  13. cassandrakitty

    This does smell like an attempt to sneak in a “well women don’t really need access to birth control pills, they can just take supplements” argument. I’m no fan of the pill for all kinds of reasons, but that argument is still hogwash.

  14. Didn’t first wave feminism also want reliable and safe contraceptive choices for females? Why do I feel like people are revisiting this entirely sensible idea?

    If “natural” methods were so fucking good, I would have assumed that unwanted pregnancy wouldn’t have still been an issue to address in the 1950s/1960s.

  15. I think medical condition is a good descriptor. That doesn’t mean a voluntary pregnancy is in any way bad of course. If you’re a women or present as a woman because you have a uterus and vagina, you will be asked if you are or could be pregnant every time you go to the doctor. Because the way you will be treated completely changes if you’re preg. There’s a lot of drugs you can’t take and physically, you’re just more vulnerable. Again, that isn’t a bad thing if you want to be pregnant, but it is a reality.

  16. cassandrakitty

    Also, if some women prefer not to use pharmaceuticals, that’s fine, but I’m not sure why that’s relevant to those women who do want to use them.

  17. BreakfastMan

    The pill isn’t just useful for contraception either; many people, my sister included, take the pill for medical reasons. As in, the pill is prescribed to them to help balance their hormones, avoid depression and mood swings, and have periods normally. But apparently stopping people from getting treatment for hormone imbalances is okay, so long as you believe that god told you that they shouldn’t. -_-

  18. The first time I was prescribed the combined pill, I was underage. I had the onset of menses at ?11, and it was regular, until I got to 15 and then after having a normal 28 day cycle, my next one was 21 days, then the next one was 15 days, then the next one was 8 days and caught me out at a camp. That was the point at which I went begging to the doctor for something, anything, to fix it. I had terrible dysmenorrea until I was in my mid-to-late 20s, and that year at school I had my first mid-term exams coming up too. The emotional side of it was pretty much as bad as the physical side.

  19. emilygoddess - MOD

    As annoying as MRAs are, they only exist because of third wave feminism. Get rid of that and the MRAs go with it.

    This is an odd claim to make, given that most of the straw-feminist ideas they claim to object to (“all sex is rape”, domestic violence, zombie Solanas) are second-wave.

    The rest of your claim is just absurd. We could all abandon feminism en masse but MRAs would still hate us for being women.

  20. We could all abandon feminism en masse but MRAs would still hate us for being women.

    QFT. You can dig around in David’s archives and find a denouncement from some part of the manosphere for pretty much any choice women can make. Stay at home mom (“Leeching off a man!”). Successful professional (“Taking mens’ jobs! Competing with men, so unfeminine!”). Few sexual partners (“Frigid bitch. Won’t give men what they need.”). Many partners (“Slut!”). Women would never be able to twist themselves into whateverthehell MRA’s and their ilk want, so why should we worry our pretty little heads with trying?

  21. As annoying as MRAs are, they only exist because of third wave feminism. Get rid of that and the MRAs go with it.

    What a splendid fucking idea! I’m sure misogyny only exists because we’ve gotten too uppity wanting autonomy over our own uteri, equal pay, and how dare we have the gall to not want to be raped?

  22. The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule

    “As annoying as MRAs are, they only exist because of third wave feminism. Get rid of that and the MRAs go with it.”

    NOPE!

    They have major issues with 2nd wave and even 1st wave feminism.

    Some even argue that women should have never been given the vote and they also criticize 1st wave feminists for being “prudes” because they were pro-prohibition and anti-prostitution.

    ” but, well, it is a medical condition. It’s temporary and not the way the human body is by default, so it’s a condition, and it requires a lot of doctor’s visits”

    No, it doesn’t.

    Plenty of women give birth without seeing a doctor even once. Some don’t even see midwives or doulas. Those are the “unassisted birth” peeps, which often overlap with the “lotus birth” crowd.

    My comment wasn’t about birth control and wasn’t meant to make any profound point to be pondered upon deeply. Just throwing it out there that not all women approach pregnancy as a “medical condition”.

  23. How they approach it doesn’t change that is is a medical condition, just like acne.

    And, (to continue the analogy) some people see doctors for their acne, some don’t.

  24. Some even argue that women should have never been given the vote and they also criticize 1st wave feminists for being “prudes” because they were pro-prohibition and anti-prostitution.

    They conveniently leave out the reason feminists, and a lot of other women were pro-prohibition. Before prohibition the average man was drinking a lot more than the average man does now (three times as much IIRC). Also, at the time, domestic violence was rampant as were STIs caught from sex workers. Both those things were correlated with alcohol consumption.

    In hindsight prohibition was a big disaster. But I can understand why it would’ve sounded like a good idea to a lot of women at the time.

  25. Oh, honestly. Are we really going to argue that pregnancy doesn’t cause physical changes to the body that may require treatments? This is a ridiculous conversation.

  26. cassandrakitty

    @ katz

    Yep. I mean, I don’t see a doctor for my allergies, I just buy otc meds from the pharmacy. That doesn’t mean those allergies aren’t a medical condition which I could in theory see a doctor about if it was causing me more severe problems (and as a teenager I actually did just that).

    I get the urge to reframe pregnancy as not being a medical condition as a way to take back control from a medical establishment that often treats women who’re giving birth in dehumanizing ways, but I’m not seeing any good reason to turn that into an argument that women don’t really “need” birth control pills.

  27. I’ll believe that pregnancy isn’t a medical condition when people stop dying from it.

  28. I’ll believe that pregnancy isn’t a medical condition when people stop dying from it.

    QFT

  29. Flying Mouse

    Both of my pregnancies required close doctor supervision. I had gestational diabetes and severe morning sickness each time. Those are two conditions that rarely result in a good outcome if they’re left to run as nature intended. Because my pregnancies were treated as medical conditions, I had two safe deliveries and two healthy babies.

    I know “anecdote =\= data,” but still… yay, modern medicine! I get to be alive and healthy, and my kids got to be born!

  30. kittehserf MOD

    Ditto.

    Also, I get the feeling “medical condition” is being equated with “disease” or “automatically bad in every respect” when people protest against the term being applied to pregnancy. It’s not a statement of values, it’s a statement of physical fact. This is probably a slippery slope argument, but when I hear someone saying “Pregnancy isn’t a medical condition!” I also hear “So why do you want medical attention, medicine, assistance, any consideration at all in fact …” implied.

  31. kittehserf MOD

    (That ditto was to Unimaginative and mildlymagnificent, not about sharing Flying Mouse’s experiences!) :P

  32. Flying Mouse

    @kittehserf – Thank dog, I wouldn’t wish my pregnancies on anyone.

  33. kittehserf MOD

    I’d need to know how I had two pregnancies, let alone two kids, without ever knowing about it! :D

  34. This stupid fucking idea that pregnancy isn’t a health condition because some people will experience it without ever seeking medical attention doesn’t change the fact, yes, it fucking is.

    I’ve worked in obstetrics and gynaecology for…. about a decade now. Will any of the OB/GYNs I’ve worked with refer to their patients’ fetuses in the patients’ presence as parasites? Nope, because they’re dealing with people who want to keep their pregnancies and perceive the fetuses living and developing off of them as children. Will any of the OB/GYNs deny that the relationship between the parent carrying the fetus and the fetus is parasitic when they’re out of earshot of the people whose feelings it might hurt? Nope, because that’s what it is. You are hosting a parasite when you are pregnant. Just because you are doing so by choice doesn’t change the reality that you are being parasitised and it carries enormous risks.

    Lots of people will have measles and never seek treatment before, during or after. Some people, through sheer dumb luck, will suffer no lasting effects of disease despite having suffered from it. Doesn’t make it by less of a health condition.

    Unassisted pregnancy and birth is stupid. The numbers are clear. Hell, lots of assisted births are stupid. Homebirths with a midwife result in THREE TIMES the neonate fatalities hospital births do (still a small number but three times that of hospital births) and we don’t even bother documenting the unnecessary complications people giving birth in these situations suffer because the medical resources available to them were so limited in their living room with a midwife present. Does I need to list the various birth injuries to the parent and baby that are easily avoidable in a medical setting but not in your bathroom? Because they’re horrifying. Just because it might work out alright doesn’t mean it will and there’s no risk.

    Ever participated in an obstetric fistula clinic in sub-Saharan Africa? No? I have! It’s a result of an absolute lack of maternal healthcare (because, y’know, pregnancy and childbirth aren’t medical conditions and you can just will away all the risk.) It’s basically a channel between the vagina and anus or vagina and bladder and it means constant incontiencne and shame! It’s also really, really prevalent where pregnancy and childbirth are viewed as regular bodily functions like sneezing that don’t have major health risks associated with them.

    And that’s just one very, very prevalent condition resulting from a lack of healthcare during pregnancy and delivery.

    Oh, but because 30% or so of people deliver with no complications (in hospital, that is) it’s obviously not a risk to one’s health to be pregnant and give birth. You’re just looking at it wrong!

    It will take precisely .06 seconds for someone to crawl up my ass and start shrieking about how totes safe giving birth on the toilet at home is and I’m just in it because c-sections make me big money. Go fuck yourself. Seriously. At this point I don’t work in obstetrics and there is absolutely no benefit to me, financial or otherwise, to discourage births outside hospitals. It doesn’t benefit me in any way whatsoever to say “Yo, that’s actually very risky”. In fact, it makes me unpopular. I make myself a target of abuse by standing up and saying “Birth outside a medical facility without doctors present is foolish and selfish”. It is though and in no way does it behoove me personally to bear that bad news. The science is clear on the matter. Pregnancy and childbirth carry the risk of death and the safest way to go about them is under medical supervision and delivering in a facility where physicians are present and capable of performing emergency surgery.

    I’m so sick of OB/GYNs being demonised for ruining someone’s birth experience when what they did was SAVE THEIR LIFE AND THAT OF THEIR BABY. Seriously, how fucking ingracious are these people?

  35. emilygoddess - MOD

    Plenty of women give birth without seeing a doctor even once. Some don’t even see midwives or doulas.

    And other women die in childbirth or of pregnancy complications. Maternal complications are the #1 killer of women worldwide. That some people can do it safely doesn’t make it inherently safe.

    I get the urge to reframe pregnancy as not being a medical condition as a way to take back control from a medical establishment that often treats women who’re giving birth in dehumanizing ways

    As the person who wrote the original comment, I wish I had included a disclaimer like this. The medical establishment has a horrifying tendency to treat pregnant and birthing women as mere incubators for the baby they’re carrying, often to the point of ignoring her wishes or endangering her, and that’s fucked up and I can see why women are opting out of that.

    But in the debate over abortion and birth control, the antis want to pretend that pregnancy and birth are a cakewalk, a mere inconvenience, or to focus on the dirty, sinful sex rather than the mother’s health, and I refuse to let them. Pregnancy is dangerous and often deadly and as long as we’re fighting for our right to prevent that happening to us or put it off until we’re ready, you bet your ass I’m gonna harp on it.

  36. Pregnancy and birth aren’t necessarily pathological conditions.

    But they can be. And there absolutely is a very strong, undeniable connection between lack of prenatal and perinatal medical care and poor outcomes for both the pregnant person and the fetus/child.

    Yes, people with uteri should be empowered to make informed decisions about their bodies and pregnancy, and yes, medical professionals can treat people paternalistically and condescendingly. But the key there is being empowers to make informed decisions. There should be options available for all, birth control and healthcare and education. Pregnancy and birth should be a choice, not something imposed upon you. And if a pregnant person, looking at the benefits and risks of all options, chooses to have an unassisted or a natural birth, then that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean that adequate healthcare and birth control shouldn’t still be available to everyone.

    And medical professionals really need to respect and treat their patients as people. I can’t believe it’s the 21st century and that still needs to be said.

    Then again, I can’t believe it’s the 21st century and there’s still a debate about abortion and birth control.

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