Hey, we’re huggin here!
An open thread for personal stuff, continuing from here.
As usual for these threads: no trolls, no arguments.
Posted on June 19, 2014, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 580 Comments.
" ... a delirious and incisive page against misogyny." -- El Pais, via Google translate
WHTM, written and edited by David Futrelle, tracks and mocks the New Misogyny online, focusing especially on Men's Rights, Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), and Pickup Artist (PUA) sites.
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@katz
well the dog cna’t walk well hse has arthritis :( :( :( So we can’t take her out on walks long. but i thnk i’ll just reread this tommorrow tbh. I don’t think I”m absorbing anythign now. I may even be repating myself.
ps ur awesome : D
Ooo repating yourself sounds great. You should always pat yourself more than once for a job well done. :)
Yes, I know you meant repeating, but it’s cooler with the typo IMO. :) :)
test
Swooping in to give hugs to anybody who wants them. Also YAY for hormones!
Re: 3 yo potty training…sending the Lego walk of doom to his mom.
So, I have this Plenty of Fish account (please don’t laugh at me) that I use to stroke my ego when I’m feeling undesirable. I’ve never met up with anyone or gone on a date with someone I met on any kink or dating site. When my self-esteem is in the shitter though I’ll give the account a bump, add a cute image of myself and appreciate any attention I get from seemingly likable individuals. I figure it’s better than seeking validation through sex. I did that a lot at eighteen/nineteen and, while exciting at the time, all it ultimately gave me was grief. In short, my self-esteem is pathetically low and I rely on the praise of others for validation.
I resurrected the account the other day for that purpose but also as a networking tool. The profile is pretty explicit that if I’m looking for anything it’s expanding my social circle and I cannot see myself dating for a long time. I go as far as to state in it that I’m processing a very ugly breakup that’s basically destroyed me so you’ll be lucky if you get flirting out of me. In other words, be my friend. Don’t try to fuck me. If intellectual and emotional and sexual compatibility are present and we have shared goals, it’ll happen. I’m not looking for it though so don’t come to me looking for it. If you want to tell me I’m pretty though and you do it in a nice way, it’s appreciated.
Then I receive this turd from a kid several years younger than myself:
“I’m not trying to be rude but that approach probably isn’t going to get you the most responses on here. People are assholes but dudes arent trying to hear that shit about your ex”
Gosh, I’m sorry! I’d almost forgotten it was my job to ensure my profile caters to your wants! How dare I not behave in accordance with your preferences. Thank you for the unsolicited advice. It is your job as a man to correct me when I’m uppity.
And now another bro sends me a message saying I sound like I COULD be “brutally nice” but my profile makes me sound like a “bleeding heart” and some shit about how unattractive he finds that.
Where do these bros get the impression I want or need their advice, it’s their place to advise me or that they have any right to dictate how I present myself ie: in accordance with their preferences?
Gross. Fucking gross.
WTF is “brutally nice” anyway? Apart from an oxymoron, that is.
How rude of you!
Politely advising them in advance that you’re looking for friends rather than relationships or hookups. The End Of Online Conversation is at hand. We’re all doomed. (But if you’d just be quiet about your intentions and your preferences, all will be well again.)
Well, I’ve been too sleepy to recall much (only got 6 hours’ sleep last night) but we did have the picnic I’d been wanting. It was like a pre-birthday party, ‘cos everyone was there – not just the family members we see most often (Louis’s father, sons, youngest sister and associated in-laws), but his mother and first wife and her partner, as well as Armand and Marie-Madeleine (aka Richelieu and Mme d’Aiguillon, for those who know French history of the period).
The snippets I do remember include lots of joking around, everyone sharing out food, catching up with the people we hadn’t seen for a while, various people playing instruments they’d brought and others dancing, and Louis doing his lute version of Glory Days, to much laughter and applause.
That’s the way to spend a summer day.
@kitteh: that sounds really nice. :)
@marinerachel: that’s lovely how they mansplained how you should do your profile. At least them typing out unwanted and boring crap is a few minutes of their lives they will never get back. That was one of your feminist superpowers kicking in – forcing them to have to tell you how to do a profile “right”. Please only use your powers for good. :) :)
I should say, I’m off to bed now myself. I am hoping this will be three nights in a row where I don’t need codeine to get to sleep. I’m scared about going to work on Monday, I am catastrophising about someone knocking my left side, or that the train motion will hurt me.
At least I can touch the scar tissue area in my armpit without wanting to vomit – and I have a very, very strong stomach.
Hey all, here’s my anecdote about the MRA’s I knew a few years ago. For context I don’t know what sites these guys were going to but they definitely identified as MRAs. This was before Red Pill was around but a lot of the things they talked about used that kind of language and ideas. The group was made up of 5 guys: 2 single in their early 20’s, my boyfriend who was in his late teens-early 20’s, a mid 30’s guy in an LTR with 2 kids (the most extreme) and an early 40’s married guy (would be considered a ‘moderate’ MRA). I’ve been thinking about this since the #NotAllMen shit went down, the cognitive dissonance still gives me a headache.
So MRA’s like to go on about how not all men are rapists, most men are responsible reasonable people with self control so why are women so cautious about them, etc etc etc I’m sure you all know the story. If this seems to be slightly at odds with their fixation on feminazis trying to police ‘healthy male sexuality’ (i.e., claims that they can’t help but catcall and stare at women, it’s natural for men to be overtly sexual, etc.), that’s because it is. And seeing a group of guys who believe these things simultaneously try to manage their relationships with women is an epic clusterfuck. Because ‘healthy male sexuality’ means that men think with their dicks and are more sexually impulsive, among this group it was seen as wise to ban their partners from speaking to other men for their own safety. I don’t know how many times I heard these guys parrot “it’s not you we’re concerned about, it’s the guys we don’t trust because that’s what male sexuality is like,” when accused of being jealous and controlling. The other partners and I were repeatedly reminded that all men want to have sex with us so we should never have male friends because they only want to get in our pants. Never EVER go out for a girls night out because men + alcohol = knowing concerned looks exchanged between the guys and veiled references to rape.
I used to get really confused when not long after being told that every man I’ve ever talked to has pictured himself having sex with me, these guys would start complaining about how they can’t even ask a woman for the time of day without her thinking they are hitting on her. Because GOD men don’t always want to get in a womans pants, why do women always think that?? And why men as a whole viewed as dangerous just because of the actions of a few bad seeds? There was a long running argument between one of the couples because the guy would refuse to pick the woman up from the trainstation after work, even though her train pulled in at about 10pm. She was concerned about her safety but he simply didn’t understand why she was getting hysterical considering men are fine, men are great, no man is ever going to attack you walking home late at night because of his honour and even considering that a guy would do that is sexist. But better not have male friends because men can’t be trusted. Oh, but don’t point that contradiction out to them, because then they’ll just exchange knowing glances between them, say you don’t understand men at all, and then laugh amongst themselves about how naiive and dumb the womenfolk are.
Sorry for the essay, I’ll cut it off there.
@pallygirl “do you think she will ever hit her son, over something like this?”
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too. He told his granny this unasked at the weekend, and she says she tried to react neutrally in case he was lying for sympathy or whatever – but honestly, he’s never lied like that before, I don’t think he’s at that stage in his development yet. But as far as talking to her about that, it’s going to be completely lose-lose, because my bet is that she knows she shouldn’t do that, at least, so if she is doing it she’ll deny it, possibly with a side dose of accusing us of manipulating him, or him of manipulating us.
Her behaviour is getting downright alarming. If he shows any more signs of anxiety, especially around toileting, or he keeps mentioning the smacking…we’re going to have to seek full custody. But that will be a long and difficult process and we don’t know what we can do in the meantime.
@AngryMouse: so men are dogs and think with their man-parts so can’t be trusted, especially when alcohol is involved …. but men are also no threat to women and why are they all so paranoid anyway?
That just doesn’t stand up to even superficial scrutiny. How do these guys not understand that their worldview isn’t even internally consistent?
I know battles for custody are a really miserable experience, but if she doesn’t change her behavior post haste, then it sounds like that’s what has to be done. I hope the kid gets through it all without being traumatized.
Adding hugs to the barrel for anyone who’s battling suck.
Some random job-seeker advice: I heard yesterday from a career advisor person I know that 75% of HR people go looking for people on Linked In before they even post open positions. So if you’re looking, she says you should get on Linked In.
@kittehs
glad to hear you had a nice picnic :3
@pallygirl
::offers hugs:: I hope going to work on monday goes well
thanks everyone who gave me advice last night. I’m going to try to reread it on a clear head, but I”m already feeling much better with your advice and that also my sister asked my dad how he took care of our dog when he was with her, so now we have more to work with . You’re all awesome. <3
I agree with katz, she should not be hitting the boy, especially for outcomes he can’t control, like toileting mistakes. If anything, it will make him have more mistakes because that’s one thing that stress does for little children.
If you have the money, I strongly recommend seeing a child psychologist about this. If you do go for custody, having a report from a professional like that will really help the custody decision go in your favour.
I’ve known a number of full-time solo parents, who are on state benefits, and not a single one of them have ever struck their children. There is no excuse for her behaviour.
@marie: thanks, I even managed some time lying on that side without having all the pain that used to be there. Yay for healing processes. :)
@strivingally: This is not at ALL impartial, but here’s a thing I wrote about it, recently. It’s kind of difficult to be impartial, really. Even the origins are icky.
https://inadvertentfeminist.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/maybe-notallmen-but-yesallmras/
Crap. I’m sorry. I saw this in my reader-thingy, and didn’t even introduce myself. Hi! I’m Ina, and I’m a n00b.
@Ina: I’ve been commenting here for weeks and I *still* haven’t introduced myself. :D Hi, I’m StrivingAlly and I started getting vocal about the manosphere after Isla Vista. A lot of the women I know told me there weren’t enough men saying the kinds of things I was saying, so, I started myself a blog and a twitter account. :)
Kitteh, Louis plays Glory Days on the lute? That is AWESOME.
Mr. S and I are having a picnic tomorrow too. He wants to see the Texas City Dike, which was damaged by a hurricane a few years ago. They’ve repaired in and improved it, apparently. I have a square quiche baking in the oven right now (because I thought little squares would be easier to handle than slices), and some fruit and cookies. We’ll probably head on to Galveston afterward.
It’s going to be very hot but I could use the outdoor time. I sprained my foot three weeks ago and I’m such an idiot – for two weeks I did even more than usual: went to a street fest the next day, to a concert and stood up the whole time, etc. Then last Sunday I woke up and it was swollen and more painful than before. So, then I decided to ice it and stay off it. But now I’m bored and it’s mostly better, so I’m looking forward to doing stuff tomorrow.
I’ll catch up with the rest of the thread now. I can’t promise I’ll have any advice for anyone, but everyone has my virtual hugs!
@serrana if it is swollen and more painful at this point, are you sure it’s not broken?
Hi David and All,
Long time lurker, first time poster. Thought I should take the opportunity to say hi and that I totally dig what you’re doing here. Mocking the manosphere for the sad abyss of self-inflicted human misery it is, dilutes its power, and amuses me tremendously. Keep up the great work!
Pallygirl, it got better within hours when I got off it and iced it last Sunday. I’m just annoyed at myself for waiting two weeks to do so. It’s actually a whole lot better this weekend. Thanks, though! My SIL once broke her foot and didn’t realize a while, and she’s super conscientious about her health, so I can see how someone could miss it. Especially me, as I’m kind of oblivious.
@serrana: sweet, just checking. I hope your foot gets better soon.
RE: Marie
Wow, that’s just a ridiculous amoutn of money O_o
Yes, yes it is. That’s what happens when gel testosterone is completely controlled by one company in this country. (I really hate needles, and I also prefer to have really even hormone levels, which the gel manages better.)
RE: Kat
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too.
Yeeeeaaaah, if he said that to you AND granny unprompted, I’d say believe him. I mean Jesus. Horrible as seeking sole custody is, it really doesn’t sound like this woman is doing anything but escalating her behavior.
Hi, Ina and StrivingAlly!
Have a Welcome Package!
Good to see new nyms, without the smell of troll socks. :)
Kat, what LBT said. Also, (apologies if someone has said this before), document. Document every little thing you might think is relevant later.
@inadvertentfeminist
Hi :D and welcome.
@serrana
ouch! I hope your foot heels as quickly as possible.
@kat
seconding both serrana and LBT, though I don’t have anything to add :/
I know I don’t post much here, but I could use a bit of a boost if people here don’t mind…
One of my long-term Internet friends “broke up” with me via email this morning. She took an overseas job for the summer and I was skeptical of our ability to arrange Skype chats due to the time difference, and she misinterpreted that as me not caring enough to maintain the friendship. Stir in a few hurt emails back and forth, and then she just dropped me. I’ve been pretty miserable about it all day. I feel like she didn’t give me remotely enough chance to explain myself and sort things out. Apparently she’s been dissatisfied with the friendship for a long time…which she also never brought up. I don’t have many friends, online or in meatspace, and I just feel like any one of them could be holding a secret grudge they don’t plan to tell me about until it’s too late.
I tend to be socially awkward. I never know where to find the sweet spot between smothering people and pushing them away. I was trying to avoid the former here–letting her alone to do her cool career thing instead of trying to eat up her time with chats–and I wound up doing the latter. I’m half tempted to just withdraw from everyone I know so I can’t make any more mistakes.
@karalora
Free internet hugs from me, i fyou want them. That really sucks :/ I don’t really have any good advice, thoug :(
Oh, Karalora, that’s awful!
I know what it’s like to not be sure whether you’re being smothering or being too distant. I know I tend to do the distant thing, because actually talking to people is sometimes intimidating for me.
If I have a script, like for EMS stuff or tutoring or job stuff, I do fine. But casual conversation? Terrifying.
I wish I had good advice. Instead, all I’ve got is a heartfelt “Keep trying to interact with people, because when it works out, it’s fun.”
Sorry I’m not more helpful…
Internet hugs, if you want them.
@karalora nooo don’t do that! I know what you mean, I do that all the time – even on this site (you have no idea how nervous I am about typing this comment- I’m not good enough to give advice!). But generally I just try to take what people say at face value – it isn’t your fault she was unwilling to discuss any problems she had. Maybe try saying something along the lines of your comment if your concerned? Just like “hey I’m not the best at reading social cues, so I try to avoid smothering people, but I really appreciate your friendship, so please tell me if I’m being too clingy/you feel like I’m pushing you away/any problem at all because I do really like you.” IDK that’s what I generally do at least – make it clear that I am awkward, but really like them and will never have a problem with them having issues and then take them at face value.
Oh, speaking of EMS, random good news!
Just got set up with my Career staff shift and mentor for my EMT Precept!
So, until I get a job, I get to spend 12-24 hours actually training at the main career fire station with the EMT-III’s and Paramedics, with my gear on the ambulance, every third day! Then, once I have a job, I’ll probably have to cut back to 4-8 hour shifts. :(
But, being paid and not living on savings will be nice! Currently, spending lots of time at the local job center, letting them coach me on cover letters and resumes… because I wasn’t doing so great on my own. Kind of the problem of not knowing exactly what my degrees qualify me for…
Super stoked about the opportunity to do more hands on work and watch the pros, in the interim!
Thanks, guys, but it’s too late to mend things at this point. She stated that this was her final email and she would not be replying again, had blocked me on Skype, etc.
It just seems so abrupt from my end.
I really, really appreciate the kindness. Y’all hardly know me.
Big change from “observational” shifts, although those were also sometimes very hands-on and fun, for sure! :)
Also, a bit less stressful than responding from the volunteer station. Only been an EMT for a year, and when I respond from my own station, me and (if I’m lucky) the volunteer RN are kind of on our lonesome for the first 10-15 minutes. Much intimidating for baby EMTs, for sure. The RN is amazing though.
Yeah. I’d love to have way more precept experience, before too many more of those calls come in.
@contrapangloss
yay for your job :3
oh sorry i read your post wrong :(
Karalora, that really, really stinks.
I really wish that I had good advice to give, or something profound to say to make it all better…
@karalora well it sucks that this situation is unsalvageable (and btw definitely a good portion of the blame rests on her. As Captain Awkward says USE YOUR WORDS) but hopefully some advice can reassure you for other relationships.
@wewereemergencies
Yeah…I’m not actually going to become a recluse. It’s just a recurring thought.
@Karalora: that sounds awful, internet hugs from afar if you want them. And kitty fur, I have lots of that I can give away. :) I agree with wewereemergencies, if she really wanted the friendship to continue then she would have found a way, friends don’t let little misinterpretations block relationships and give each other the benefit of the doubt – and time to explain. So don’t completely blame yourself – she may have been looking for an excuse to end the friendship anyway – blocking you seems pretty extreme. If you can pinpoint a way that you said something in a less good way, and think up what you will do instead if a similar situation presents itself, that is one possible good outcome. But don’t rip yourself to pieces trying “what if” scenarios in your head – it will be you giving yourself mental torture and for no good reason. :(
contrapangloss: hooray for the job and the money and the excitement you’ll have. I’m so pleased for you. :)
And hugs (with or without cat fur, if you get hugs from me IRL it’s always with cat fur though LOL) to anyone that wants them.
Hey guys, I’ve started working on a new zine project! This one will be about eating disorders, or rather, mine. I’m trying to break it down into exactly WHY I starved, what I got out of it, and also how and why I stopped. I’m hoping that when I’m done with it, it’ll teach people about eating disorders and also maybe help them deal with their own, if that’s something they’re dealing with.
It’s really emotionally intense and difficult, so I think it’ll take me a while to make. But I’m really excited about this project, and hope it’ll be useful when I’m done!
@pallygirl
I already have a surplus of cat fur on my shirt. (Sekhmet is always very supportive when I’m sad.)
@karalora, that sucks. I have a lifelong friend who’s no longer speaking to me because I didn’t behave the way she required me to when she was having a crisis. I couldn’t, but that’s irrelevant. It hurt. It’s been a few years, and it still sucks, but it hurts less.
@LBT, have I ever mentioned how much I admire your generosity? You’ve been through so much horrible shit, and you keep overcoming it and using it as fuel for your art, and you make your art educational and helpful to others. You’re amazing.
LBT,
Please let us know when you have something up. As someone who’s been through an eating disorder too I’m definitely interested in reading it.
If you (or anyone else) is interested in essays about experiences with e.d.s I recommend Going Hungry, edited by Kate Taylor. It has essays from a variety of perspectives not just the rich white girls everyone stereotypes as being the only ones who ever have eating disorders.
I think so! :D
Hope your picnic with Mr S goes beautifully and your ankle heals up.
Hi and welcome, delurkers!
Hey, if we ever meet afk we can swap kitty furs!
Karalora, that sucks, but don’t let this ended-friendship be the pattern and cut you off from having any. That’s only going to make you feel lonelier.
RE: Unimaginative
@LBT, have I ever mentioned how much I admire your generosity? You’ve been through so much horrible shit, and you keep overcoming it and using it as fuel for your art, and you make your art educational and helpful to others. You’re amazing.
Aw, you’re kind. The way I figure, if I can use my suffering to be useful and maybe prevent other people from suffering, that gives my pain purpose, and makes it much easier to deal with. I know somebody somewhere talked about using suffering as a means of transformation, but I can’t remember who.
RE: WWTH
Please let us know when you have something up. As someone who’s been through an eating disorder too I’m definitely interested in reading it.
Thanks! In some ways, I’m a little frustrated, since my ED was apparently pretty unorthodox. (It had practically nothing to do with weight or bodily control, which a lot of ED lit fixates on.) So I worry I’m not going to say anything other people can connect to. But I can damn well try!
I reckon you’d be connecting precisely with the people most of the lit ignores.
I achieved that rarest of things today: Cat Approval. Mads has been leaping about on the bookshelves, indicating she wants to sit on a high windowsill. Problem is we don’t have high sills, they’re at floor level. So I moved her scratching post over to the window, and voila! Happy cat.
My camera battery died while I was filming her, but this clip gives the general idea.
Hi all,
I was off for a few days and notice there are so many new threads with a zillion comments. Congrats to Ally and Inurashii for transitioning.
It has been remarkably busy lately!
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome!
Doing better this morning. Getting a good night’s sleep helped. Thanks again to everyone who chipped in with encouraging words.
I’m sorry I don’t participate more in the community here. I very rarely know what to say because someone else has usually said it ahead of me and I don’t want to jump in with shallow me-tooism.
@kittehserf – I have seen a comment in an older thread suggesting that you might be a fellow Ricardian (if your historical interests extend across the Channel).
@LBT
Good luck on your project! I hope it goes smoothly for you. 3
@inadvertentfeminist
Yay, you got a kitty avatar! :D (enter the hivemind! >:D)
@karalora
That’s part of what took me so long to comment when I was lurking. I think sometimes people repeat each other, but that’s kind of inevitable with so many people commenting, and I don’t think you’ll just look like me-too-y.
Either way, I don’t want you to be too worried about me-too-y stuff, cuz I think it’ snot that big a deal? But you don’t have to comment more than you want to, also :3
Is anyone familiar with NCSF? There’s some stuff going on, on another site, and I’d like to ask for your input, mammoth-hunters.
Also… @marie: I am now a member of so many hiveminds, I’ma need a PA to keep them all organized.
I’m gonna spend all week catching up with the comments :)
This weekend was Midsummer so all Finns were out in the country chilling out and getting drunk. Helsinki was really deserted when I came back home Saturday evening. It’s my favorite holiday, although this year there was way too much weeding in the garden and the weather was a bit chilly for the season. Daytime temperatures have been barely above 10 C with frequent wind and spits of rain for many days. Much like June in Melbourne, no?
BTW, I assume Pagans in Australia/NZ celebrate summer and winter solstice – adjusted to Southern seasons? I understand that mainstream Australian Christmas is kinda like a mix of Finnish Midsummer and Western Christmas.
@Arctic Ape,
Man, would I love to experience Midsummer up in the Nordic countries. It would be worth the loss of sleep (from excessive daylight) to share in some of those traditions.
@inadvertentfeminist
Sorry, I don’t know what NCFS is.
Maybe you really just need some hivemind-organizing hivemind :P
(ok that was a bad joke)
Feeling any better today, Marie?
I’m going to meet my dad and my little sisters in about an hour. I’m so nervous.
Good luck Ally!
@katz
Better about my dog? Or in general? (I am feeling better about my dog you guys are lots of hlep, thanks :3)
@Ally
Good luck! I hope it goes well.
Marie: Either one. You were just sounding really miserable the other day. I’m glad you’re feeling better about the dog, anyway.
Ally: I hope it goes well. I know your sisters will be really glad to see you.
@katz
well, like I said I’ve been feeling a lot better about the dog, so thanks again.
NOt really anything else :( Earlier I though my antidepressants were kind of helping but the past week has been the worst. :( I odn’t know if I should go back to my doctor or try to wait it out or what…
NCSF is the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom.
I am kinky. The NCSF has set itself up as the go-to organization for kinky people who are being discriminated against, and abused. They are listed with many mental health and DV organizations across the country. Their founder and PR person is on record, on that other site, blaming and shaming and outing a victim of some of the most heinous domestic violence I’ve ever heard described. She even participated in harassing the victim. She preaches “Go to the cops or STFU,” but in a very smarmy, side-of-the-mouth way that a friend of mine described like this:
“Go to the cops. You don’t have to go to the cops, but look at all the good that happens when you do. If you go to the cops, you need to not speak publicly. You don’t have to go to the cops, but really, you shouldn’t speak publicly anyway, because what if you go to the cops? Look here’s a situation where shutting up and going to the cops worked! Everyone should know you can do this! Oh, a lot of that came from people speaking out? No, that just damaged things, you really need to be quiet and go to the cops. Not that I’m telling you to go to the cops, you get to choose, but hey, if you get assaulted, here’s how to go to the cops.”
And they’re promoting themselves, and raising money, as the primary sex-positive organization in the US. While the PR person, and most vocal board member, uses her influence to silence victims or rape and assault and domestic violence.
I wish I could say that didn’t reflect the experience I had with what happens when things go wrong in the kink community but, well, there’s a reason I’m not involved in the community any longer.