I had an interesting conversation recently with a woman on Twitter who told me that my policy of letting MRAs and misogynists comment here, at least so long as they’re not abusive, was keeping her and others she knew from joining in the conversation; she wanted a place to discuss MRAs where she didn’t have to deal with them.
I know a lot of the regulars here like engaging with the trolls and MRAs who stop by, but I’d like to create some space here for commenters who want to discuss the issues in a Troll- and MRA-free zone.
So I thought I’d try starting a new kind of Open Thread: A No-Troll, No-MRA, No-Misogynist, No-Rape-Apologist, No-Douchebag Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on. Enjoy!
Oh, and if a troll wanders in, or if someone starts being douchey, ignore them and send me a note. I’ll delete their comments and ban them. No warning, no moderation, straight ban.
Um, it could be El Nino, I get stuck between which one it is. It’s 10.55pm here now and apparently is a balmy 13.2C outside – according to my external barometer, hygrometer thingie (I didn’t go out to look, it’s one of those wireless sensor things and I have a digital barometer, hygrometer thing on my desk). 🙂
Anyways, time for more codeine ahead of bed. I’m liking the codeine, apart from the itching.
13.2! That’s warm for that late at night.
Sleep well! Codeine causing itching, blech. Itching’s the pits.
Beautiful coat, kittehserf! Hope it keeps you nice and warm 🙂
Thank you, Flying Mouse! I’m mildly concerned it’ll keep me too warm and I’ll end up carrying it everywhere. 😀
Shift to Canberra, LOL.
@titianblue being from England I think we have a number of detective show where women play the main characters, Mrs Marple. Rosemary and Thyme and Prime Suspect. Although I guess none of these are current. I had a quick Google and there is stuff like the Fall 2, Line of Duty 2 and the Honourable Woman (although this may be more of a thriller than detective show). I don’t tend to watch telly so don’t have any idea what any of the new ones are like. I’ve seen a lot of the older ones because my Girlfriends mum is a fan but she can’t stand more modern crime stuff as it is to dark for her taste. I do agree that there isn’t enough lead roles for women in TV and films outside of rom coms though.
@tea for two in gaming harassment is really par for the course. Identifying as Lex-Man I tend to get called a c**t or noob, again mainly when playing well or badly. Average performances tend to be ignored. Also the amount of abuse tends to be vary depending on the game. At the moment I play a game called dota 2 which is generally fine and the companies running these things have started to try and control bad behaviour. Some people did have a go the other day which stopped me playing for a few days.
I use to play the old call of duty games when they were based around WW2 where there was a lot of overt racism.
On the India point in general it seems to me that things are getting worse around the world especially in regards to homosexual/ woman’s rights but I’m not sure if it’s just that we hear more about these things today. I’m sure stuff like the boat that sunk in Korea would never had made the news in the UK even a couple of years ago also they has been a huge number of cases where celebrates were raping under-age girls and it almost seems like it was excepted in the 70’s.
I remember having a load of problems with people coming round to check the meter a few years ago. It was a scam in England where people would come to do the door say they needed to check the gas and electric meter as most people would just live them to it and then they would nick a couple of things and do a runner. When you asked for ID they would get quite aggressive.
I would think that the reason that there are so many films about prostitutes is that it is an easy sell with audiences. I would be quite interested to see some stuff about John’s as you rarely hear the views of men who use sex workers.
@pecunium I haven’t been stalked. Thinking back I have once been felt up by a woman on the street, I was walking into town when I was still in school and a number of school girls were coming the other way. One grabbed me and felt my bum I got embarrassed and ran away, I was probably about 14 or so at the time the girls were my age or older. Another time I was coming back from work and as I passed three girls one said to me “you’re an ugly c**t, aren’t you” the comment left me more bemused than anything else. For balances sake I was once in a gay bar playing pool with a gay friend when another man slapped my bum quite hard, he immediately walked away and I was once groped by a man while working a corporate event he got annoyed with me as I didn’t reciprocate and stormed off saying something like “fine then.”
Sorry for rambling
So this is awful (trigger warning for ridiculous assertions about rape survivors): http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/george_will_being_a_victim_of_sexual_assault_is_a_coveted_status_that_confers_privileges/
And George Will is a lauded Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. Things that make me vomit . . .
Ack, a little late to this party… to David and others, a couple of questions:
In your opinions, what are the range of MRA opinions concerning abortion and views of fetuses in particular?
Given that the MRA movement is a mostly online community, this might be a touch difficult to answer: what areas of the US do MRAers predominately live? Do they have particular urban/suburban/rural habitats?
I’m not really getting where the “all women in movies are prostitutes” idea is coming from. I was trying to think of the last time I’d seen a sex worker in any medium and I came up with Slave Girl from Saga and I guess Lulu from Slings and Arrows, although she’s a meta character and maybe doesn’t count. Not a particularly predominant occupation from a casual survey. Certainly the vast majority of media I’ve read and watched don’t contain any sex workers at all.
And, importantly, both the ones I mentioned are broken birds; I can really only name a couple of characters from any source that are sex workers who don’t have tragic backstories.
Me neither. I remember a small surge in them in the 80s, but nothing really recent springs to mind.
In one of my favourite book series, the Eve Dallas series, one of the secondary characters (very secondary) is Charles Monroe, an LC (licensed companion), who’s main reason for becoming a sex worker was because he liked making people feel good (both physically and emotionally.) I always thought that was the best reason I’d ever heard.
@katz you might be right I think I’ve been watching too many BBC & channel 4 docs on porn.
Although it’s certainly true that there are a lot more sex-worker characters than johns.
LOL but then I’d be too close to all those disgusting politicians!
I’m wearing the jacket now, as it happens. Inside. With the heater on. There was still frost visible on the lawn at 10am!
The only character I can think of – and she’s only in it for one scene – is Marjorie Majors in Shirley Valentine. She was the star of the school, always knew the answers, etc, etc. Shirley encounters her years later, obviously wealthy, and assumes she’s an air hostess, that being the height of glamour in their childhood days. She says so to a hotel staffer – “She’s an air-hostess, you know” – and Marjorie (played by Joanna Lumley, so imagine the voice) says “Darling, whatever gave you that idea? I’m a hooker!”
@wwth
You had me at hemingway cats. Growing up I had a hemingway cat, mittens. Anyway, he would use his front paws in the oddest way, pulling water up from the bowl, prying doors open, I loved him so much and still have a pic of him on my fridge.
I dont know if there is some new found love for polydactal kittehs but in the 80s when my dad went to the pound and picked out mittens brother he was told he had to adopt both because no one would adopt the cat with extra fingers, easy decision for my dad, who said well then I’ll take the one with extra fingers, problem solved!
enhancedvibes, yeah, I get the feeling the polycat popularity is fairly new. I’d never heard of them until recently (and now have a hankering for one … or for a marmie … or ANY kitty, dammit …) and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one afk.
Flirting for fun should be fun, for both parties. If it’s not fun for you, then you don’t have to do it. Just like any other fun activity. If he’s doing it for some sort of validation rather than a mutual fun activity, then that’s his own problem.
There are some recently developed cat breeds, like the desert lynx, where polydactyly is a prized breed feature. Maybe that has to do with the uptick in popularity.
@Philip Lightweis-Goff
Well, as far as I can tell, it’s pretty mixed up. About half of MRAs are pro-choice, although even the pro-choice discourses in the MRM are inherently reactionary in that MRAs strongly emphasize at least some restrictions on abortion. For instance, they are likely hold positions such as “It’s okay if it’s done to save the mother’s life” along with positions like “The first trimester is acceptable, but any later than that is murder.” In other words, much of their acceptance of abortion is contingent on whether the fetus is alive, can feel pain, etc. I have seen very, very few pro-choice MRAs actually say that all abortions are acceptable because abortion is a reproductive right.
The other half, of course, seems to be vehemently anti-choice. Or at least they will have alongside their purported support for “a woman’s right to choose” they will hypocritically advocate for the right of men to have a say in whether a woman has an abortion. Many believe that women who get abortions against their male partner’s wishes are evil and selfish. Beyond that, they may try to argue for the “paper abortion”, which is basically the right to be a deadbeat dad by completely giving up parental responsibility.
In short, their views are shitty.
“I’m not really getting where the “all women in movies are prostitutes” idea is coming from.” – katz
(Sorry I don’t know how to do quotes here.)
I didn’t expect the backlash for my earlier opinion. Last thing I wanted to do was cause any uproar in here. I didn’t honestly expect the reaction I got for pointing out the dangers to women (or anyone) in the sex industry. I didn’t think it was news to anyone, either. I do think it’s damaging to promote the opposite, that it’s problem free or not dangerous, including emotionally speaking. That’s my opinion. As katz pointed out, we *were* all asked for ours.
I wasn’t going to reply to the earlier comments about my opinion. And I appreciated katz stating that we *were* all asked. 🙂
But I feel like my comment was stuffed with straw. I didn’t say most of the things that I’m being directly or indirectly quoted as saying. I didn’t say *all* women in movies were prostitutes. I didn’t say anything bad about sex workers, either; so I wasn’t “condescending” or “patronising” or “disrespectful” in any way shape or form, that I can see. I’m not the first one to be concerned about the risks in the sex trade or of glamorizing it.
I’m really surprised that people don’t notice how often women characters that garner attention or Oscars are some form of sex worker. Well, there are male ones, too. I could post links from google but since you can all find the same pages if you wanted to, I won’t. I don’t want this to derail the entire topic here, anyway. Last thing I expected here were arguments, to be frank. But then I tend to idealize these things that promise safe haven or safe spaces.
But then part of a safe space is also being able to express oneself honestly – but without criticism and backlash. I got part of that at least.
Anyway. Someone said there were no good portrayals of sex workers on film. The woman in Shirley Valentine is one example who isn’t presented as “broken” but there are more. There is a very recent series in the UK called Belle de Jour. I’m surprised no one saw it? It is also online. Based on a real woman, by the way. Her identity has since been revealed. She is a scientist who became a ‘call girl’ to pay her expenses, I guess. Not sure. The Tv series sprang from her ‘anonymous’ writing.
Another one? “Half Moon Street” with Sigourney Weaver. “I happen to like uncomplicated sex” she says at one point. High priced call girl.
As for portrayals of female sex workers on film – I can only say there are literally too many to list. Not all are major studio productions. Last one I can think of like that was “Leaving Las Vegas.” Also, “Girl Six.” Before that, “Risky Business.” And there are older major films.
Belle de Jour took her call girl nom de plume (which she used in her original column by that name) from the Bunuel film starring Catherine Deneuve. Aside from documentaries there are so many – Butterfield 8 starring Liz Taylor, Irma La Douce starring Shirley MacLaine. I honestly can’t even remember them all but the movies are everywhere. I don’t think I specified “recent,” either. Someone said “recent,” but I’m talking about the history of women in film.
And those are films in which a leading character is a sex worker. If we open it up to any size role, there are even more. If you google “prostitutes in film” you will mostly find sites meant for titillation (such as “hottest 50 hookers on film”) but they mostly list different ones, which tells you how many there are. Or do a film title search on the word “Brothel.”
I do apologize for not realizing for some reason that you wanted notes for a book character, not a film character.
Backlash? Uproar? I thought it was disagreement, and save space doesn’t mean everyone agreeing.
That was a long, long way from uproar, seriously.
I have certainly seen men’s-rights-redditers emphasize their concerns for ‘paper abortion’ above all else, but they did at least seem to put up some form of pro-choice face. Of course, MRA leaders have said too much to be able to fool anyone at this point.
“Midnight Cowboy,” “Klute,” “Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,” “My Own Private Idaho,” “Johns,” “Whore” (the Ken Russell film, 1991), “Salome’s Last Dance” (Ken Russell again), “Whores’ Glory,” “Born Into Brothels,” “Starlet” (Dree Hemingway), “Zack and Miri Make A Porno,” “To Live and Die in L.A.,” “Salaam Bombay,” “Paper Moon,” “Lady Sings the Blues,” “Pretty Baby,” “Pretty Woman,” “Jo Jo Dancer Your Life is Calling” (although that’s not the centerpiece and is a biography so I hesitate to count it), “Saint Jack,” “The Men’s Club,” “Story of a Prostitute” (a comfort woman, very artistic film, but still), “Raise the Red Lantern” (forced and sold to be a concubine, she goes insane), “The Emerald Forest” (native women captured and sold into sex work), “American Gigolo,” “Just a Gigolo,” “McCabe and Mrs Miller,” “Duchess and the Dirtwater Fox,” “Elmer Gantry” (Oscar for the role), “Harlem Nights,” “Taken,” “Hustling” (starring Melanie Mayron), “The Boys in the Band,” “Prick Up Your Ears, (minor characters),” “Personal Services,” “Rainman,” “American Pimp,” “Iceberg Slim: Portrait of a Pimp,” “Streetwise” (documentary – underage street kids/ hookers), “Monster” (Oscar for Theron), and the one I was trying to find for you was “Working Girls” a slice of life film set in a brothel. I Believe that one will be the closest to what you are looking for – a ‘regular person’ who happens to be a sex worker.
Just listing those because I have seen nearly all of them, and more that I didn’t list. I tried to focus on films that are starring major actors, made by major studios and/or directors, or were huge hits or serious art films or documentaries. I just wanted to show I wasn’t talking out my back side. Nor did I mean anyone any harm.
And those are in addition to the ones I already mentioned above and are hardly a complete list. Some of those are featuring male or child prostitutes or sex workers as well. And that isn’t counting most foreign film, documentary, Tv shows, or films about porn (other than “Starlet” and maybe some overlap of plot points.)
kittehserf that may be how you saw it but it read as open hostility to me. Good to know if that was not how it was intended. Just as I did not intend to say the things I was misquoted with. 😉
And I don’t mind if people disagree with me. That wasn’t the point. And I’m a bit bugged that that’s all you got out of my detailed reply. Once again my points are ignored. That’s fine but why make it a point to do so? All you got out of my response which I took time to compile was “there was no uproar here,” and minimizing how I felt. :/
Tea for Two, I believe you are well meaning, but you are getting push back because there are a lot of feminists that support things like the Swedish Model (legalisation of sex work but not buying sex work) despite sex workers saying it has made their job more dangerous.
There are a *lot* of people who are very invested in all sex workers being abused, and it’s not supportive of trafficked women to conflate people who are trafficked with those forced by circumstance and those who feel OK about their job.
This is what you said. You literally said that all full service sex workers (many sex workers do *not* like the word prostitute) are emotionally damaged.
I hate having this argument, because there are a lot of women and children who are trafficked and abused. But those people are not helped by sex work being illegal, nor by attitudes that all sex workers are damaged.