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Is The Mankind Initiative’s #ViolenceIsViolence video a fraud?

The We Hunted the Mammoth Pledge Drive continues! If you haven’t already, please consider sending some bucks my way. (And don’t worry that the PayPal page says Man Boobz.) Thanks! And thanks again to all who’ve already donated.

The ManKind Initiative, a UK organization devoted to fighting domestic violence against men, recently put out a video that’s been getting a lot of attention in the media and online, racking up more than six million views on YouTube in a little over a week.

The brief video, titled #ViolenceIsViolence, purports to depict the radically different reactions of bystanders to staged incidents of domestic violence between a couple in a London plaza. When the man was the aggressor, shoving the woman and grabbing her face, bystanders intervened and threatened to call the police. When the woman was the aggressor, the video shows bystanders laughing, and no one does a thing.

The video has been praised by assorted Men’s Rights Activists, naturally enough, but it has also gotten uncritical attention in some prominent media outlets as well, from Marie Claire to the Huffington Post.

There’s just one problem: The video may be a fraud, using deceptive editing to distort incidents that may well have played out quite differently in real life.

A shot-by-shot analysis of the video from beginning to end reveals that the first “incident” depicted is actually a composite of footage shot of at least two separate incidents, filmed on at least three different times of day and edited together into one narrative.

A careful viewing of the video also reveals that many of the supposed “reaction shots” in the video are not “reaction shots” at all, but shots taken in the same plaza at different times and edited in as if they are happening at the same time as the staged “incidents” depicted.

Moreover, none of the people depicted as laughing at the second incident are shown in the same frame as the fighting couple. There is no evidence that any of them were actually laughing at the woman attacking the man.

The editing tricks used in the video were brought to my attention by a reader who sent me a link to a blog entry by Miguel Lorente Acosta, a Professor of Legal Medicine at the University of Granada in Spain, and a Government Delegate for Gender Violence in Spain’s Ministry of Equality. He goes through the video shot by shot, showing each trick for what it is.

The post in Spanish, and his argument is a little hard to follow through the filter of Google Translate, so I will offer my own analysis of the video below, drawing heavily on his post. (His post is still worth reading, as he covers several examples of deceptive editing I’ve left out.)

I urge you to watch the video above through once, then follow me through the following analysis.

The first “incident” is made up of footage taken at three distinct times, if not more. The proof is in the bench.

In the opening shot of the video, we see an overview of the plaza. We see two people sitting on a bench, a man in black to the left and a woman in white to the right, with a trash can to the right of them. (All of these lefts and rights are relative to us, the viewers.) The trash can has an empty green bag hanging off of it.

vv1bench

As the first incident begins, we see the same bench, only now we see two women sitting where the man was previously sitting. The trash can now has a full bag of trash sitting next to it.

vv2bench

In this shot, showing bystanders intervening in what is portrayed as the same fight, and supposedly depicting a moment in time only about 30 seconds after the previous shot, we see that the two women on the bench have been replaced by two men, one in a suit and the other in a red hoodie. The full trash bag has been removed, and the trash can again has an empty trash bag hanging off of it.

vv5benchtrash

Clearly this portion of the video does not depict a single incident.

What about the reaction shots? The easiest way to tell that the reaction shots in the video did not chronologically follow the shots that they come after in the video is by looking at the shadows. Some of the video was shot when the sky was cloudy and shadows were indistinct. Other shots were taken in direct sunlight. In the video, shots in cloudy weather are followed immediately by shots in roughly the same location where we see bright sunlight and clear shadows.

Here’s one shot, 9 seconds in. Notice the lack of clear shadows; the shadow of the sitting woman is little more than a vague smudge.

vvmuted

Here’s another shot from less than a second later in the same video – the timestamp is still at 9 seconds in. Now the plaza is in direct sunlight and the shadows are sharp and distinct.

vvbright

If you watch the video carefully, you can see these sorts of discontinuities throughout. It seems highly unlikely that the various reaction shots actually depict reactions to what they appear to be reactions to. Which wouldn’t matter if this were a feature film; that’s standard practice. But this purports to be a depiction of real incidents caught on hidden camera and presented as they happened in real time.

The issue of non-reaction reaction shots is especially important when it comes to the second incident. In the first incident, we see a number of women, and one man, intervening to stop the violence. There is no question that’s what’s going on, because we see them in the same frame as the couple.

In the second incident, none of the supposed laughing onlookers ever appear in the same frame as the fighting couple. We have no proof that their laughter is in fact a reaction to the woman attacking the man. And given the dishonest way that the video is edited overall, I have little faith that they are real reaction shots.

The people who are in frame with the fighting couple are either trying resolutely to ignore the incident – as many of the onlookers also did in the first incident – or are clearly troubled by it.

I noticed one blonde woman who looked at first glance like she might have been laughing, but after pausing the video it became clear that she was actually alarmed and trying to move out of the way.

vvnervousblonde

There is one other thing to note about the two incidents. In the first case, the onlookers didn’t intervene until after the man escalated his aggression by grabbing the woman by her face. In the second video, the screen fades to black shortly after the woman escalates her aggression to a similar level. We don’t know what, if anything, happened after that.

Is it possible that the first part of the video, despite being a composite of several incidents, depicts more or less accurately what happened each time the video makers tried this experiment? Yes. Is it possible that onlookers did indeed laugh as the woman attacked the man? Yes.

But there is only one way for The ManKind Initiative to come clean and clear up any suspicion: they need to post the unedited, time-stamped footage of each of the incidents they filmed from each of their three cameras so we can see how each incident really played out in real time and which, if any, of the alleged reactions were actual reactions.

In addition to the editing tricks mentioned above, we don’t know if the video makers edited out portions of the staged attacks that might have influenced how the bystanders reacted.

The video makers should also post the footage of the incidents that they did not use for the advert, so we can see if reactions to the violence were consistently different when the genders of attackers and victims were switched. Two incidents make up a rather small sample – even if one of these incidents is actually two incidents disguised as one.

Domestic violence against men is a real and serious problem. But you can’t fight it effectively with smoke and mirrors.

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Posted on May 30, 2014, in domestic violence, MRA, shit that never happened and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 933 Comments.

  1. It’s Irish, and seems to mean “welcome home”–but anyone who calls women baby chickens ain’t too welcome in my home.

  2. Argenti Aertheri

    According to google translate sé do bheatha a bhaile means welcome home. It’s pretty good with Latin, so I’m guessing it’s not far off here.

  3. @A Noyd

    Thanks a lot for the advice. I’ll definitely try your tips. :>

  4. Sorry went away for a bit, thanks Ally and cassandra!

    I think you should give it a try Ally, especially if you are just doing a streak or something, it’s pretty easy to go back to dark hair. If you are blond it’s much harder to get colour out than just redying it dark over top. And a streak is easier to maintain because you don’t have to use the whole bottle so one bottle of hair dye can last a while just reapplying when it fades (but yeah the more intense the colour the faster it fades and reds fade faster than other colours)

  5. I really hate how my hair is now, though, since it’s not really long and it’s super wavy. It often fans out from the sides, which has led to people ridiculing me.

    I’d say “If possible, lose the losers who do that, because they’re PoS, and maybe envious of you having thick strong hair anyway.”

    If you don’t want to have the bother of hair colouring, and you do go for hair straightening, there are always clip-on extensions. They come in all sorts of colours.

    Given your hair’s dark brown-black (if I’m understanding you right – the link to bistre was about ink and I couldn’t relate it to hair colour at all – then I’d say pink isn’t going to work too well. Plus, would it make your skin tone look washed out or sallow? I’d think maybe something in a more red tone, maybe something in the crimson to burgundy range.

    I had crimson foils back in the day when I had my hair dyed ink-black. Got ‘em for free because my then-hairdresser just liked doing them. :)

  6. Ally, you should go for it. It will look awesome (and it fades out to blond/white highlights).

  7. Here’s a picture of my hair that shows the reddish-brown tint: http://i.imgur.com/ZQqwTej.jpg

    I know the photo quality is terrible, but my hair really does have that kind of tint to it. (And as you can tell, it’s waaaaaaaay too short. X_X)

  8. Wait, this is a more useful pic since it has my hair all fanned out and weird looking: http://i.imgur.com/jDoR3pu.jpg

  9. You people keep saying these interesting things to do with hair, that I lack motivation for. Currently, I’m just waiting for mine to grow out another 3 inches. Then I can hack off a foot, ship it to locks of love, and get the edges trimmed even.

    I do the cycle between long and just above the shoulders. I definitely like the short end better, because my hair is fine, I have lots of it, and gets greasy uber fast. It also grows fast, so a hack every year and a quarter seems to do it.

  10. This is a really nice colour! I don’t think that would be hard to do with your hair colour. But, one thing I noticed from dying my hair is that sometimes it’s really trial and error, colours don’t always come out the way you want them. Oh and if you dye all of your hair it’s likely you’ll notice a change in the texture. When I first dyed my hair it was a lot more smooth and I find my grey hair feels much less brittle and crinkly after dying it.

  11. That first one was so light! I’ve never seen you hair look that light before, it’s always looked brown-black in other pics.

    So – yeah, your hair’s at sort of midway between cuts now. First thing I’d suggest is that when you have the $$$ to do so, make sure you get it trimmed regularly. I used not to do that, thinking it would make no difference. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Having the ends cleanly cut instead of wispy makes the hair look bulkier as well as neater; it also helps you notice how fast it’s growing.

    At present, if the second photo’s accurate, I wouldn’t call it very wavy, and I’d bet it will straighten under its own weight as it gets longer. That’s what mine did when I wasn’t getting it layered (layering brings out the curl).

  12. Ally, a red streak might be gorgeous! The people ridiculing your hair need to find something better to do with their time…

    As for the fanny-out ness, my hair did that all the time when I was little! A quick damp comb run through usually tamed it. The trick is not to get it too damp, or it clumps.

  13. Make sure you use a good conditioner, too. Makes hair less flyaway.

  14. @kitteh

    Good idea. I was actually thinking of getting my hair trimmed before leaving. My mom offered to pay for some haircut appointment before I leave, so she could help me out money-wise I guess.

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  17. Well, that spambot made more sense than most of the trolls we’ve had lately.

  18. WWTH: I like (no I don’t) that Anand is refusing to address my point about why devil’s advocacy is hurtful and is now exclusively addressing and listening to the commenter who is a man.

    Well, sort of. He at least acknowledges I exist. He ignores everything I say which has any substance, and pretends that he can be a neutral observer whose words have no meaning or effect, even though we disagree.

  19. Anand: I dont read avfm everyday. -_-
    Most of what i read there is extrememly boring or filled with inaccuracies and sometimes sprinkled with misogyny. Its one of the many sites that i visit when i read up on feminism which is one of the many topics that i read up on.

    Which is it… you have read widely, or just skimmed?

    It’s things like this (the bobbing and weaving) which makes me think you aren’t being honest.

    I totally respect your views and i dont intend to argue with your observations

    Which you then proceed to discount and call untrue. Interesting definition of “respect” you are using.

    Of course, if you’re up for it but i have a hunch you are more intrested in calling me a misogynist rather than to express your views without resorting to name calling. I’d really appreciate that.

    really? Because it’s been done. You’ve refused to engage, or made excuses to explain why your mistakes of fact aren’t important and we need to “agree to disagree”.

    Which is moronic. If you are trying to divine “The Truth” it’s not about seeing all sides, it’s about determining which is right. It’s about joining a side. It’s not about, “agreeing to disagree”, but choosing to disagree.

    i dont believe anything anyone says without defenite proof.

    Unless it’s on youtube, or from a group releasing edited footage; without explaining that, nor giving a reason they pretend it’s all in one take; that, you assure us, is because it was only most relevant parts.

    So this “scientific” proof you claim is your benchmark seems to be reserved only for the direct testimony of feminists. If it’s stuff which makes women look bad, well that’s “obviously” credible.

  20. I think the slug-variety of misogynist is even more disgusting than the spittle-spraying haters. Anand just oozes around leaving a trail of slime.

  21. Oops, wrong article. Meant to post that on the CoAlpha thing.

  22. Don’t bother. We’ve had one MRA troll banned already for spamming that AVfM idiocy.

  23. I came back here only to find my name being dragged into tge mud again for having a different opinion and respecting other’s.

    Brz, I appreciate your concern but it would be better if you dont mention me because it would only result in more people calling me names and insulting me.

    As far as i can understand, most of the people here just wants to be sockpuppets who will attack you at the first sign of a different opinion even if you just express it without shoving it down anybody’s throats. Also, here attack means call you everything offensive while claiming the moral high ground because im a ‘misogynist’ who disagrees with them on a few topics. Constructive criticism is extremely rare. I would advise you not to engage in any more of these silly fights.

    Before anyone mentions it, im not sucking upto anyone. I just dont want people here to call me more offensive names and i dont want my name brought into arguments again.

    To all those who are calling me names, i wont respond to you. I respect you but i also respect myself enough not to throw myself into a den of angry wolves. Good day to you.

  24. cassandrakitty

    This means you’re finally leaving, right?

  25. @cassandrakitty, I will still keep reading this site because i like the content here and a few angry people insulting me isnt enough to convince me that feminism=bad nor will i consider all MRAs to be misogynists.

  26. most of the people here just wants to be sockpuppets

    I’m saving up for the shiniest possible button eyes, myself. Unfortunately, shilling is so low-paying.

  27. cassandrakitty

    So you’re going to stop commenting, then? Because otherwise what you just did was a flounce with full intent to return worthy of a sulky toddler who just got told to put their toys away.

  28. I came back here only to find my name being dragged into tge mud again for having a different opinion and respecting other’s.

    Bullshilt. You give time to violent scum like Paul Elam and pretend his hatred of women deserves some sort of consideration. You insist MRAs aren’t misogynists even after one of them committed mass murder and the others are complaining he didn’t kill enough women. You’ve outed yourself as someone who doesn’t give a flying fuck about women’s safety, quality of life or even right to live. You’re not wanted here. Go walk on Legos forever. You’re a whining, contemptible specimen with less to contribute than dogshit on a shoe.

  29. They are fucking actors of course its a fraud. You think they really blew up the Death Star?

  30. Anand,

    If you think Paul Elam of AVFM isn’t a misogynist than you yourself are a misogynist. If bash a violent bitch month isn’t enough to convince is the fact that he’s vowed to vote a guilty rapist not guilty enough? What does it take to convince you that they are misogynist?

    If you think we’re going to feel bad about not being nice to you, you have another think coming.

    It has been explained to you several times that your comments have been hurtful and you continue to not give a shit. Why is it that we should believe you are posting in good faith?

    I know you won’t respond because you are choosing to ignore any criticism we have of you and calling it bullying. But why the hell are you here? You claim to want to learn yet you refuse to listen to anything we have to say. So what is the point?

  31. Anand, I’m known to be foolishly and hopelessly optimistic. A bit naive, about some things.

    I hope you’re in earnest, and just naive. Naïveté can be grown out of. The naive person can grow, and change, and become a more nuanced individual way more easily than someone who is simply willfully blind.

    I hope you are naive.

    In an issue like this, fence straddling is no good. Fence straddling means maintaining the status quo, and the status quo is painful for a lot of us. The status quo is what tells people women can’t possibly hurt a ‘real man’ and that women who get black eyes ‘deserved’ it.

    I know you want to be unbiased. But, you’re just human, like the rest of us. You’ve treated some evidence with far more credulousness than others, because it confirmed your bias.

    We all do it. Confirmation bias is a thing. The trick is to recognize it.

    Why did you believe those videos more than our words? Why, despite the edits, were you more willing to accept the video in the OP as telling a ‘truth’?

    Think about those questions. When you interact with people in the outside world, try thinking about what’s going on. When you look at someone, what thoughts come to mind first? Then think about why. Challenge your own assumptions, regularly.

    I do the same. It’s a habit, and it’s tough to start out because you figure something’s out about yourself pretty quickly that aren’t always pretty. I came to recognize that I associated slow speech with low intelligence. I knew rationally that that’s patently false, but it was an assumption I still made in snap first impressions.

    I actively fight that urge. I’m not perfect, but have to continually try to do better.

    Practice analyzing yourself for a bit. Don’t try other people: that just builds up assumptions. Just analyze yourself.

    You don’t need to share your conclusions. Please don’t. Save them for yourself, for self improvement.

    Absolutely do not try to answer my questions to you, here. Just think about them. My opinions of your answers totally don’t matter. I don’t want to be your conscience. None of us here do. That’s your own job.

    If your genuine, I hope you’re willing to at least consider his advice.

    If you’re a troll, congratulations, you’ve trolled me into writing you a teal deer.

  32. cassandrakitty

    How is the whole not replying to people who say critical things idea supposed to work, anyway? If someone was being nice and then they say something critical do you just stop talking to them? If they then say something non-critical do you start talking to them again?

    That’s not protecting yourself from bullying, Anand, it’s manipulation. And also very childish.

  33. Sorry if my desperate need to believe people can become better is bugging any of the regulars.

    I really, really don’t intend to sound ridiculously high horsey, because I’m definitely not always a good person, in my head. :(

  34. @Ally_S (and anyone else who wants to talk about hair)

    My hair isn’t wavy, but I had a bob cut in 2007 and there was a definite short hair floof-factor. However, when I grew it out, and it passed about shoulder level, it went back to being straight and super flat again. From your photos, I think your hair is thicker and wavier than mine, so I am not sure if it will flatten at exactly the same length, but at least it gives you an idea of the timescales.

    Also, in terms of dye, my hair is mousy brown and slightly lighter than yours. I had some problems dying it darker in certain colours as the dye wouldn’t take. However, for some dyes it worked, so if you want to make yours darker, given that there are dyes that significantly darken my hair, there should be dyes that work well for you too. I found a really nice purple/maroon that took very well (it was a standard brand, but I can’t remember the brand name as it was over a decade ago … ).

  35. Wow, the trolls sure did roll in for a bit; not sad I missed it. Finally got to go see Godzilla today (and as a bonus, we recorded Super 8 so we could watch that after!)

    Re: what to do with growing out wavy hair. Ah, the eternal question. I have very thick, coarse, wavy hair, and I’m in the process of growing it out from a short bob (I’m at the fluffy Farrah Fawcett stage too!). Here’s what I’ve been doing.

    #1 Lots of conditioner. Dry hair is fluffier.
    #2 If you’re hair isn’t too oily, Moroccan oil or macadamia oil on the ends. If it’s oily, stick to a frizz serum.
    #3 Gel. Mousse will give too much volume for this length, but the gel will help tame it.
    #4 Be wary of the brush. Once while it’s wet (before gel), to get the knots out, but brushing when it’s dry will only separate the hairs and make it fluffier. The amount of product it takes to fix this will make your hair feel nasty.

    Not sure if any of this is useful (hair is so incredibly unique for each person, I’ve met siblings who had to use different products), but I couldn’t resist the topic.

  36. cassandrakitty

    Oh good, we’re back to hair instead of huffy men being huffy about trivial shit.

    This is my favorite product for smoothing fluff and frizz. It’s expensive, but you don’t need that much so I find it tends to last a while.

    http://www.kerastase-usa.com/elixir_ultime

    And this one is a very close second, may work better than the first one for some people depending on hair type.

    http://www.shuuemuraartofhair-usa.com/Essence-Absolue/SU028,default,pd.html

  37. They are fucking actors of course its a fraud. You think they really blew up the Death Star?

    I love that basically the only MRA reactions to my post so far have been:

    1) It’s totally not a fraud and you only think it is because you’re biased!
    2) Of course it’s a fraud but it doesn’t matter because everything is edited!
    3) Well maybe that’s a fraud but here’s this other video that wasn’t a fraud!

    So far, no one has said, oh, that’s kind of skeezy, maybe they shouldn’t have done that because this actually undermines their message.

  38. AL3H – mouse brown hair? ::fistbumps!:: That’s my natural colour too. Or what’s left of it amid the grey.

    I’ve had a little trouble with the dyes recently, too, though they’re salon dyes and it’s more to do with going grey, I think. I’d been getting a very deep brown, but it was fading and turning gingery-brassy at the ends – not a good colour at all. My hairdresser’s added a dash of absolute-black-hole-singularity-black to it, and it’s holding like it used to again.

    Re: mousse – I use Revitafoam, which is a conditioner and mousse. It can help hold curl in and it’s light. Whether it would work for Ally’s hair as it is now, I don’t know.

  39. On one of the videos posted by Jean (not even going to touch the Sharon Osborn one with a ten foot pole)…

    This news spot was actually very well done and well explained by the people interviewed in it. At one point the psychologist even addresses the idea that there are harmful gender ideas which explain why when a man is being abused by a woman onlookers will either respond with apathy or even think he had it coming. I’m sure the video clip was meant to be some sort of gotcha, but it actually addresses a good many points that feminists have been talking about forever.

  40. weirwoodtreehugger: Pig shit is so much worse than cow shit. You can sort of ignore cow shit for a bit, but pig shit will make you choke from miles around. Source: I worked across the road from a pig farm for 3 summers. When that place was down wind it was like hell on earth. Also the sound of pigs being taken to be slaughtered is one of the most terrifying sounds I think I have ever heard.

    Pig shit=MRA talking points Cow shit=Fox News

  41. @Unimaginative

    “We did have a discussion a few months ago about whether to use an asterisk after trans — Ally said she doesn’t use one, and had a whole background on its use or non-use that was, as usual, coherent and educational, and I can’t remember it at all. My brain is swiss cheese.”

    I never use the asterisk either.

  42. Is there any good way to completely straighten it, or should naturally wavy hair be left alone?

    Not caught up on the thread yet, but just wanted to say – I have wavy, often frizzy hair and I had Japanese straightening done. I’m not sure how it differs from other straightening, but it’s definitely a type of perm. I had it dyed and a “heat lamp pointed at your head” conditioning treatment at the same time. My hair has never been so lovely and shiny and easy to manage, and it lasted for ages because it’s the ends that needed it, not the top, so it could grow for many inches before the effects wore off. I would totally do it again and recommend it except that it’s expensive and takes all day.

    My friend who was from a rural area taught me the difference between pig shit smell and cow shit smell

    I lived next door to a piggery for a few years when I was a teen. Pig poop smell is foul in a way cow poop could never be. I think given a side by side comparison anyone could tell them apart even if they’d never smelt them before. Or maybe I have a knack. Is it just me that can easily distinguish pig, cow and horse poop, cat pee and poop from dog pee and poop? Surely not.

  43. @Kim, nope not just you. Brought up in the country. Pig, cow, horse & chicken/turkey manure all readily differentiable. #Normal4Norfolk

  44. So what did I miss, yesyerday? More “I’m so superior & objective, you’re all stupid meanies” crap from Anand, Brz boring on again and oooh!

    @Ally S, a red streak would be cool. sometimes it’s just good to something like that makes you feel good. Hoping for piccies on he open thread when you’ve decided what you’re going to do.

  45. Peter LaCroix

    Listen, we know that this is a scripted video and all of these people are playing a part. However, what would be your reaction if you saw both scenes, the first where the man appears to be the aggressor, and in the second where the woman is.Answer that question ans stop trying to figure out whether this video has been edited.

  46. Not caught up on the thread yet, but just wanted to say – I have wavy, often frizzy hair and I had Japanese straightening done. I’m not sure how it differs from other straightening, but it’s definitely a type of perm.

    Is that the one that uses keratin? That one is interesting. The keratin bonds with your hair and for some reason it becomes straight (and shiny). Daily straightening works by making the protein bonds in your hair break and then repair in a “straight” shape.

    Also I made a bunch of these hair accessories that are really cool. It’s basically a stick and a figure 8 made of wire (covered with beads so it’s pretty). You make a bun, put the figure 8 on it, and stab the stick through the two figure 8 holes and the bun in between, and you hair will stay. Here’s a photo of one: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=17757&page=328

    Also I’ve discovered that cassia is magic. It made my hair shampoo-commercial shiny. It’s basically henna without dye (besides a really pale yellow). It’s an herbal powder, you mix it into a paste with water (I use coconut milk), and apply to hair. Leave it for 3 hours and then rinse. The tannins in the herb bonds with your hair, making it shinier and thicker. It lasts about 2 months.

  47. Oh I forgot to mention, the inversion method is magic. It grows your hair 1 inch in one week. I tried it and it worked.
    You take warm castor oil and massage it onto your scalp for 10 minutes, then flip your head over for 5 minutes. Do this daily for one week.
    You can use other oils, I’ve just heard castor works best.

  48. idk if i can really join the hair convo, b/c i always just cut mine short for low maintenance, and low maintenance everything else (thats my approach to most hygiene/beauty, b/c i have really low spoons most of the time). :P my sister is much more hair savvy than me.

    @contrapanglos

    IMO, you don’t sound high horsey. I mean, you can try to reason with Anand. Just don’t expect the rest of us to (I don’t think you were; I was just making the expectations clear because i am really bad at conveying/understanding expectations unless they’re written out)

  49. Contrapangloss, Thank you for taking the time to write that reply. I may be naive and ignorant, I dont know. I find it difficult to write off people merely by a few words and actions. I know what paul elam has done and said. Its not as if i treat him as my primary source of information. Maybe you’re right, maybe im wrong. Its something i want to find out on my own.

    I assure you that im not a troll and that i take construtive critisism seriously.

    I also want to apologize to the regulars for getting carried away and derailing this thread. It was never my intention to derail.

    Maybe this video may have been subject to selective editing but i really hope that doesn’t erase the message it sends. DV against men is a real and serious problem and blaming it on the patriarchy alone solves nothing. Cheers.

  50. cassandrakitty

    And yet you find it very easy to write off people here if they disagree with you, or use naughty words. Hmm, why might that be?

  51. anand

    Maybe this video may have been subject to selective editing but i really hope that doesn’t erase the message it sends. DV against men is a real and serious problem and blaming it on the patriarchy alone solves nothing. Cheers.

    that’s not the message it sends. It sends the message that DV against women is taken *more* seriously than DV against men, and it was edited highly to try to send that message ffs.

    PS please explain whatever “patriarchy unicorn” meant earlier because you still seem to be harping on it. cheers

  52. Cassandrakitty, I dont respond to people who call me names mainly because i dont want to escalate it any further. Its a defence mechanism.

  53. Peter LaCroix

    Let’s say the whole thing was sleazy and a setup but you still haven’t answered my question about how YOU would react if you saw both scenes.

  54. Fade, Feminists blame men’s problems on the patriarchy and MRAs blame it feminism. I dont really care either way. Im more concerned about convincing the authorities to use resources to help such men rather than play the blame game. We need specific laws or provisions to help such men. Its not a matter to be taken lightly.

  55. @Anand

    well, to fix something you generally have to *understand* it. If you don’t understand that most of the gendered problems men face come from the patriarchy, not feminism, then you’ll never succeed in dismantling it so you don’t have to face those problems anymore. MRM and feminism are *not* two sides of the “blame game” or whatever. You’re trying to make yourself sound like a high-and-mighty neutral bystander, but you are just sounding wishy washy and ignorant on the topic.

    Also, what sort of laws or provisions do we need to help men? Are you really being denied a bunch of stuff?

    ps i have found another video to prove a point. this may be subject to selective editing, but it’s message that parakeets can escape nuclear explosions still holds true

  56. Piss off, Anand. We’ve made it clear any number of times we don’t want you here, yet you insist on hanging around. You don’t actually give a fuck about boundaries, do you? Do you do this away from the keyboard? Do you go into people’s homes and shit on the carpet and refuse to leave? Because that’s what you’re doing here.

    FUCK. OFF.

  57. cassandrakitty

    Nope, Anand, nobody is buying it. You’re attempting to manipulate people by punishing those who aren’t “nice”. Unfortunately you’re also attempting to manipulate people who’re a great deal more savvy and intelligent than you are, which never works out well.

  58. Fade, its no secret that male victims of dv are taken less seriously by people mainly because people consider men to be stronger than women. Lets assume that you are right. Lets assume that patriarchy is the cause of men’s problems. Dismantling the patriarchy is not easy because many people still hold on to it. What we can do is use laws and give the authorities, cops and investigating officers the proper training to identify the victim without assuming the woman is the victim in all scenarios. I dont want to go into details. All i want to say is that im really glad that the video went viral because awareness solves half the problem. Im not being nuetral or claiming the moral high ground. My message is clear: We need to take male victims seriously. Even if the video is fake, i know many people who would laugh at a male victim and his chances of getting justice in courts is much less than that of a woman. Patriarchy or not, the laws should be equal for everyone.

  59. Kittehserf, your analogy would be accurate if this was your home. This a website and not your frickin house. If david wants me to leave, he can say that to me. Tell me when you become a site moderator and i may be obliged to leave. Also, you can always ban me and i will promptly leave.

  60. Oh, but Kittehserf, it’s so important that Anand find his definitive proof on whether some MRAs are not misogynists and whether all feminists are manhaters. Because he is the information-meister.

    And, of course, there must be special laws about DV against men. Because domestic violence against men is so much worse than domestic violence against women. So the gender-neutral laws that we already have just aren’t adequate to deal with the dreadfulness of DV against men. I mean, I know all the facts show that DV against men is statistically rare and less severe than that against women but look at that (possibly faked) video. Men get laughed at! how can that not be worse than women getting killed? They get laughed at in videos! We must pass laws immediately.

    Addendum 1 for clarity: All DV is horrible and should be illegal. DV against men is no different from DV against any gender in its hatefulness. The lesser statistical frequency and severity does not make any DV against any man less awful or horrific.

    Addendum f2 or clarity: Fuck off, Anand.

  61. Dismantling the patriarchy is not easy because many people still hold on to it.

    and you benefit from it, being a man. Even if it causes you some problems, it also gives you privilege. So you are less invested in this than I am. That way, you can just throw up your hands and say “welp too hard not gonna bother”, whereas women have no choice.

    You “know” many people would laugh at a male victim. But you think they wouldn’t at a female victim? You know a good male victims of DV campaign? One that doesn’t need to have ‘selective editing’ to prove it’s point and doesn’t twist how people react to female victims. Your choice is not ‘no awareness’ or ‘fakey twisted edited awareness’. You can actually have *good* awareness for male DV victims without twisting the facts.

    FFS you’re so…. ignorant.

    “patriarchy or not the laws should be equal”

    and is there a law that says men can’t be victims of DV, FFS? you are fighting a strawman

  62. What we can do is use laws and give the authorities, cops and investigating officers the proper training to identify the victim without assuming the woman is the victim in all scenarios.

    Keeerist, you’re dumber than dog vomit. The authorities are part of the patriarchal system. They don’t operate in a vacuum.

    Also, go fuck a cactus with your insinuation that female victims are taken seriously and male ones aren’t. Two girls are gang raped and murdered in India and the reaction from politicians is “boys will be boys”. The victim in Steubenville was raped on video and still wasn’t believed. Julie Ramage was murdered by her filth husband after years of him abusing her and he got away with a mere manslaughter sentence because he claimed she “provoked” him by saying he was no good in bed. No word other than his that that ever happened, no notion from the courts that even if he wasn’t lying, that it was not a mitigating factor in murder.

    3% of rapists ever go to court. Three in a hundred. You think women are believed? You think the vast predominance of men as perpertrators of violence is something to be handwaved away?

    You’re a fucking moron, utterly without any moral compass or ethics.

  63. cassandrakitty

    TIL that obviously fake things attempting to drum up support for a cause really do drum up support for that cause, rather than being dismissed as obviously fake and possibly making people regard the non-fakers trying to drum up support for the same cause with more suspicion.

  64. You’re in a private place, dipshit, and the regulars have made it clear you’re not welcome.

    How fucking stupid are you, wanting to hang around where you’re despised? Whacking off to the idea of imposing yourself on women who don’t want you around, are you? It wouldn’t surprise me at all.

    That, chickenshit, is what trolls do.

    Also, you can always ban me and i will promptly leave.

    LOL you don’t actually know what banning means, do you? You don’t get a choice in the matter.

  65. its no secret that male victims of dv are taken less seriously by people

    Citation needed. As well as proof that it makes any material difference.

    BECAUSE:

    You have already been given links to data proving that:

    Male victims of DV report more frequently, after less severe incidents and sooner than female victims.

    Female victims are more likely to suffer repeated incidents, significant injuries and/or be killed than male victims.

    Female perpetrators are more likely to be prosecuted than male perpetrators.

    Sp tell me again why DV against men is so much more urgent and important a problem?

    PS Sorry for the gender binary but Anand doesn’t seem to cope with reality.

  66. WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak

    Anand, I don’t think you quite understand what patriarchy is – laws don’t help a great deal in weakening or dismantling it, it’s to do with societal and cultural attitudes towards gender that are unconsciously adopted by those within it. DV isn’t taken seriously among men because patriarchy dictates that that doesn’t happen to men – men are the strong ones, so any type of victimisation that happens is because the man is weak, and therefore worthy of contempt.

  67. Anyone else think Anand’s hand-waving about women victims comes *this close* to apologia?

  68. @kittehserf

    IDK exactly what i’d call it, but it is dismissive and creepy

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