Is The Mankind Initiative’s #ViolenceIsViolence video a fraud?

The We Hunted the Mammoth Pledge Drive continues! If you haven’t already, please consider sending some bucks my way. (And don’t worry that the PayPal page says Man Boobz.) Thanks! And thanks again to all who’ve already donated.

The ManKind Initiative, a UK organization devoted to fighting domestic violence against men, recently put out a video that’s been getting a lot of attention in the media and online, racking up more than six million views on YouTube in a little over a week.

The brief video, titled #ViolenceIsViolence, purports to depict the radically different reactions of bystanders to staged incidents of domestic violence between a couple in a London plaza. When the man was the aggressor, shoving the woman and grabbing her face, bystanders intervened and threatened to call the police. When the woman was the aggressor, the video shows bystanders laughing, and no one does a thing.

The video has been praised by assorted Men’s Rights Activists, naturally enough, but it has also gotten uncritical attention in some prominent media outlets as well, from Marie Claire to the Huffington Post.

There’s just one problem: The video may be a fraud, using deceptive editing to distort incidents that may well have played out quite differently in real life.

A shot-by-shot analysis of the video from beginning to end reveals that the first “incident” depicted is actually a composite of footage shot of at least two separate incidents, filmed on at least three different times of day and edited together into one narrative.

A careful viewing of the video also reveals that many of the supposed “reaction shots” in the video are not “reaction shots” at all, but shots taken in the same plaza at different times and edited in as if they are happening at the same time as the staged “incidents” depicted.

Moreover, none of the people depicted as laughing at the second incident are shown in the same frame as the fighting couple. There is no evidence that any of them were actually laughing at the woman attacking the man.

The editing tricks used in the video were brought to my attention by a reader who sent me a link to a blog entry by Miguel Lorente Acosta, a Professor of Legal Medicine at the University of Granada in Spain, and a Government Delegate for Gender Violence in Spain’s Ministry of Equality. He goes through the video shot by shot, showing each trick for what it is.

The post in Spanish, and his argument is a little hard to follow through the filter of Google Translate, so I will offer my own analysis of the video below, drawing heavily on his post. (His post is still worth reading, as he covers several examples of deceptive editing I’ve left out.)

I urge you to watch the video above through once, then follow me through the following analysis.

The first “incident” is made up of footage taken at three distinct times, if not more. The proof is in the bench.

In the opening shot of the video, we see an overview of the plaza. We see two people sitting on a bench, a man in black to the left and a woman in white to the right, with a trash can to the right of them. (All of these lefts and rights are relative to us, the viewers.) The trash can has an empty green bag hanging off of it.

vv1bench

As the first incident begins, we see the same bench, only now we see two women sitting where the man was previously sitting. The trash can now has a full bag of trash sitting next to it.

vv2bench

In this shot, showing bystanders intervening in what is portrayed as the same fight, and supposedly depicting a moment in time only about 30 seconds after the previous shot, we see that the two women on the bench have been replaced by two men, one in a suit and the other in a red hoodie. The full trash bag has been removed, and the trash can again has an empty trash bag hanging off of it.

vv5benchtrash

Clearly this portion of the video does not depict a single incident.

What about the reaction shots? The easiest way to tell that the reaction shots in the video did not chronologically follow the shots that they come after in the video is by looking at the shadows. Some of the video was shot when the sky was cloudy and shadows were indistinct. Other shots were taken in direct sunlight. In the video, shots in cloudy weather are followed immediately by shots in roughly the same location where we see bright sunlight and clear shadows.

Here’s one shot, 9 seconds in. Notice the lack of clear shadows; the shadow of the sitting woman is little more than a vague smudge.

vvmuted

Here’s another shot from less than a second later in the same video – the timestamp is still at 9 seconds in. Now the plaza is in direct sunlight and the shadows are sharp and distinct.

vvbright

If you watch the video carefully, you can see these sorts of discontinuities throughout. It seems highly unlikely that the various reaction shots actually depict reactions to what they appear to be reactions to. Which wouldn’t matter if this were a feature film; that’s standard practice. But this purports to be a depiction of real incidents caught on hidden camera and presented as they happened in real time.

The issue of non-reaction reaction shots is especially important when it comes to the second incident. In the first incident, we see a number of women, and one man, intervening to stop the violence. There is no question that’s what’s going on, because we see them in the same frame as the couple.

In the second incident, none of the supposed laughing onlookers ever appear in the same frame as the fighting couple. We have no proof that their laughter is in fact a reaction to the woman attacking the man. And given the dishonest way that the video is edited overall, I have little faith that they are real reaction shots.

The people who are in frame with the fighting couple are either trying resolutely to ignore the incident – as many of the onlookers also did in the first incident – or are clearly troubled by it.

I noticed one blonde woman who looked at first glance like she might have been laughing, but after pausing the video it became clear that she was actually alarmed and trying to move out of the way.

vvnervousblonde

There is one other thing to note about the two incidents. In the first case, the onlookers didn’t intervene until after the man escalated his aggression by grabbing the woman by her face. In the second video, the screen fades to black shortly after the woman escalates her aggression to a similar level. We don’t know what, if anything, happened after that.

Is it possible that the first part of the video, despite being a composite of several incidents, depicts more or less accurately what happened each time the video makers tried this experiment? Yes. Is it possible that onlookers did indeed laugh as the woman attacked the man? Yes.

But there is only one way for The ManKind Initiative to come clean and clear up any suspicion: they need to post the unedited, time-stamped footage of each of the incidents they filmed from each of their three cameras so we can see how each incident really played out in real time and which, if any, of the alleged reactions were actual reactions.

In addition to the editing tricks mentioned above, we don’t know if the video makers edited out portions of the staged attacks that might have influenced how the bystanders reacted.

The video makers should also post the footage of the incidents that they did not use for the advert, so we can see if reactions to the violence were consistently different when the genders of attackers and victims were switched. Two incidents make up a rather small sample – even if one of these incidents is actually two incidents disguised as one.

Domestic violence against men is a real and serious problem. But you can’t fight it effectively with smoke and mirrors.

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Posted on May 30, 2014, in domestic violence, MRA, shit that never happened and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 902 Comments.

  1. Bringing awareness to the problem of male violence is not diverting attention from female victims.

    It is, if they frame things as if female victims are being helped and male victims belittled. They edited the video, making it seem like people are laughing at the male victim while helping the female victim. How else can you explain that piece of dishonesty, except by the makers of the video wanting to present female on male DV as a much bigger issue than male on female DV? Given that the majority of DV is the latter, this is hugely problematic.

    Here’s the thing, as pointed out by many people on this thread (since you haven’t bothered to read the comments): If you want to bring attention to male victims, you make a video about them and them only. Don’t make up shit, just bring attention to the fact that male victims exist, and belittling them like our macho culture does is fucking insulting.

    What you don’t do is compare two sets of victims and make it seem like the smaller (but not less important) group is in the greater danger here. What good would that do, if you care about victims? Including a dishonest comparison with female victims makes it seem like you think female victims are nowhere near as big a deal as male victims. That’s misogynistic.

    And seriously, stop appropriating social justice language. It makes you annoying.

    I’m having trouble with my thoughts today. I wish I was on meds, it would make responding to trollyboy infinitely more fun.

  2. “Eh. You can believe whatever you want to believe. But you ain’t seen me mad, gumdrop.”

    I’m just going by the evidence, bonbon.

  3. Not good at reading human emotions, this one.

  4. You asked if I’d written a letter or staged a protest. I wrote a letter. I’m not an activist.

    Ah, I see. You’re concerned about male victims of DV and their portrayal in the media, but not to the point of making much of an actual effort to actually change things or make male victims’ lives any better.

    You’d rather argue on a misogyny-mocking blog.

  5. 400Boyz:

    I’m just going by the evidence, bonbon.

    Which would be…?

  6. “It is, if they frame things as if female victims are being helped and male victims belittled.”

    They don’t need to frame things that way. It IS that way. Society is more aware of female victims than of male victims of assault. They are also treated differently by society, and male victims are a joke. If that video is mysogynistic then I guess so are these:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiRQld9j34

    Why don’t you chew on those toys for a while? Only a few women stopped to do anything in the first video. They were probably “eeebil” feminists that would not be down with what Futrelle posted here.

  7. Who the hell are you to assert that this is a fake video? First, what does “fake” mean here? Second, that is not supportable by the evidence.

    Oh, this is rich. Pray, show me the evidence, Elam fanboy. I’m intrigued.

    By the way, 40% of victims are male.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

    Meh. The article did not include a link to the study, and in any case, the study was apparently put together by Parity. I would have liked to assess how, exactly, they went about it, considering Parity seems to be another one of those equality movements that focus on men. I’d take this one with a grain of salt.

    Anyways, you’re being heteronormative by assuming all those male victims of DV are in a relationship with women.

    And the double standard is a fact. Pointing that out is not misogynistic, anarchonist. The sky won’t fall just because someone dared to say it is a problem.

    You did not read anything I just wrote, did you? Figures.

    a) I just pointed out that there is no double standard. Male victims are not worse off than female victims. Our patriarchal society treats all victims of DV pretty shittily.

    b) It’s my name, don’t wear it out.

    c) Ahahahahahaa! Because men are just sooo silenced and ignored by our society, right? *Snicker* Because talking about men’s issues takes sooo much courage, right? *Tee hee hee* Because “feminist dogma” is just sooo absorbed by our society, right? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* *wheeze*

    No.

  8. 400Boyz: Do you know how many times that video has been linked on this thread? And it doesn’t prove what you’re trying to prove:

    They don’t need to frame things that way. It IS that way. Society is more aware of female victims than of male victims of assault. They are also treated differently by society, and male victims are a joke.

    No, female victims of DV are not treated any better than male victims of DV.

    Trying to have this kind of suffering Olympics where male victims of DV have it so much worse than female victims? That’s misogynistic. That’s minimizing domestic violence against women.

    You can support male DV victims without tearing down female DV victims.

    And with that, I gotta get to work now. Have fun with the chew toys!

  9. @400boyz, please stop yabbering on about points which we have already covered. Go back, read earlier comments and see that all your points have been answered.

    Male DV victims are more likely to report, report sooner, report after less serious assaults, are more likely to have their cases prosecuted, are less likely to withdraw as witnesses – as I’ve already said, if this is being taken less seriously than women, please tell me what it means to be taken more seriously.

    Oh, I know, that SNL don’t make skits about you. Forget the authorities taking you more seriously, the real problem is SNL. That’s the important thing, right?

  10. Since trollyboy here seems more concerned with painting images of imaginary oppression than reading peoples’ comments, I’m gonna call it a night. Beloved just came home from work and we have barely seen each other in a week. Spending time with her vs. engaging oblivious trolls, hmm…

    Bye, y’all!

  11. @400boyzzz,

    I do not follow at all celebrities life. But what is a fact is that most popular culture is male dominated (writers, directors…), either in videogames, movies, comic books, tv…so if women beating men is made into comedy, if I were you, it’d take my grievance where it belongs. I personally don’t think any of it is funny. What I can tell you is from being the daughter of the chief of police in a small town. In the vast majority of the cases dad had calls on domestic violence, it was the woman who was the victim. The only case I can remember where the guy was the victim, it was the 16yo son who had enough of his father beating the living hell out of his mom. It was Christmas eve, and my father had no choice to arrest the son. My father was also one of the cops that was not a prejudiced bigot, so another thing he took seriously is domestic violence in the gay male community. I think if the MRAs had real concerns for the DV victims, its definitely an area where more awareness is needed.

    That vid posted by woody is mostly bs. Why? Because in the real world, most women are not a credible physical threat to a full grown man unless they have a weapon to even the playing field. Sure they are women abusers, but even in the LGBTQ, the majority of the aggressors are men. In situations where we perceive there is no real danger, we do not react the same way. Watching the guy being bullied, most people will assume that worst comes to worst, the man will just walk away without any serious physical harm when he has enough. From experience, we know that women are far more likely to sustain serious injuries from domestic violence. That’s facts. It does not mean that the behavior is acceptable for any gender. Its just we do not have a compulsion to intervene in people private affair unless we perceive a real risk for somebody’s safety. For example, I got no prejudice in favor of either my cats or dogs, but I will put a stop to cat/dog rough housing when it gets too heated way faster than when the dogs rumble in the jungle. I am just realist about the risks.

  12. “Ahahahahahaa! Because men are just sooo silenced and ignored by our society, right? *Snicker* Because talking about men’s issues takes sooo much courage, right? *Tee hee hee* Because “feminist dogma” is just sooo absorbed by our society, right? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* *wheeze*”

    ” I just pointed out that there is no double standard. Male victims are not worse off than female victims. Our patriarchal society treats all victims of DV pretty shittily.”

    “No, female victims of DV are not treated any better than male victims of DV.”

    It’s not about being treated better but about their situation being taken more seriously. DV against women is not taken lightly, or even worse, as a joking matter, while male DV is. That much is evident.

    “You can support male DV victims without tearing down female DV victims.”

    That’s not tearing down female DV victims. They are still victims and no one is saying they should not be helped. The double standard against male DV also needs to stop and their situation needs to also be taken seriously, not made fun of or played down.

  13. “That vid posted by woody is mostly bs. Why? Because in the real world, most women are not a credible physical threat to a full grown man unless they have a weapon to even the playing field. ”

    So because men have the potential to hit harder, they don’t deserve help? The male actor wasn’t even striking the actress and people were ready to intervene. Are you sure you want to open a can of worms by making special considerations because of male strength?

  14. @400Boyz, thank you. I had not seen that ABC video before. It is very disturbing.

  15. Shut up, Woody.
    Shut up, Woody’s strawman building sock.

  16. It is disturbing. But some women did step up, and that’s very brave. They were probably feminists too.

    But, some people assume that if you’re a man, you need to endure this kind of thing if it came from a female. Likewise, imagine if a guy who was much smaller and weaker than you did the same thing. If you fucked him up, it’d be self defense. If you did the same to the woman who was attacking you, you’d be in court as a perpetrator. (InB4 the trolls who’ll say I want to fuck women up: I don’t want to fuck anyone up.)

    It is a double standard. Futrelle wants to deny it or downplay it, so Futrelle all of a sudden, on this very blog, shows concern for an issue that this blog is allegedly not concerned with

  17. I’m done poking the ant hill. I was hoping to be proved wrong, but you all reacted very predictably.

  18. It’s so cute when the trolls start flattering each other.

  19. Geez Woody masturbate in private, please!

  20. @400Boyz,

    Look twerp, anybody that does not take any considerations of physical strength in a physical confrontation has less IQ than a chicken. That’s risk assessment 101 retard. And I don’t even say that as a woman, I say that as an ex-farmer. If I am not aware of comparative advantage of a 240 ram over my 125 pounds, I am just plain stupid. There is a reason why sports like boxing have weight category. Most people will intervene when they see a situation where one aggressor has a clear physical advantage over the other, otherwise they wont. Its not gender related. Now go back in your playpen.

  21. u cannot expect a higher level of discourse from a masshole. oh well.

  22. 400Boyz: I ain’t the one calling people names, pecuniun. U mad.

    No. I’m not mad. I’m not even that engaged (yet). You are just this side of boring (with a soup&ccedilon of predictable tedium), and bog standard.

    I do see that you don’t have enough argument to engage with the facts presented, and have resorted to lies by implication. Because, my dear lad, I’ve not called you any names (and have made pains to spell the nym you’ve chosen as you’ve chosen to spell it, a courtesy you’ve not extended to me).

    Which tells me you’ve got nothing. Saatchi admitted to committing a crime (though he denies it now, pretending it was just a friendly caress on his part). For this admission he was given less than a slap on the wrist. He was told not to do it again, or something dire might might happen.

    Since Jay-Z, the offended party; on whose behalf you pretend this petulant tirade is based, chose not to press charges, and the offense (if any) wasn’t committed in the presence of any officers, there isn’t anything legally which can be done against Solange.

    Now… if you want to argue the law should be changed, and cops ought to be able to arrest people for misdemeanor assaults they didn’t witness, feel free to make that case.

    But I don’t think you really want that. You want to pretend this is some sort of Sharon Osbourne/Lorena Bobbit moment, and that feminists are champing at the bit to punish men for things the didn’t do, while forgiving women for things they did.

    Ain’t the case. We don’t think this is a big deal because (for whatever reason) Jay-Z doesn’t think it’s a big deal. Now, if he’d wanted to press charges, and been told, “No, you need to try and work it out,” I’d be upset.

    The same way I’m upset when that gets said to women who try to press charges. But you don’t care about that either. You want to pretend that the balance of violence is equal. That women strike, and injure, men at the same rates men strike and injure women. That, mon cher is bullshit. It’s a convenient canard, one that this video you are defending perpetrates. That perpetration is the inherent misogyny in it.

    That, to make their point, they also needed to lie. Perhaps they didn’t have the money to do it on a different day: Oh wait… they did shoot on more than one day, so that isn’t the case.

    The CHOSE to misrepresent one fact. Which calls into question all the other facts they present. Just as you’ve been doing with Solange/Jay-z and Saatchi.

  23. Last comment for real.

    “Look twerp, anybody that does not take any considerations of physical strength in a physical confrontation has less IQ than a chicken. That’s risk assessment 101 retard. And I don’t even say that as a woman, I say that as an ex-farmer. If I am not aware of comparative advantage of a 240 ram over my 125 pounds, I am just plain stupid. There is a reason why sports like boxing have weight category. Most people will intervene when they see a situation where one aggressor has a clear physical advantage over the other, otherwise they wont. Its not gender related. Now go back in your playpen.”

    First of all, thanks for the name calling, asshole.

    Second of all, don’t muddle the arguments. I mentioned self defense and facing charges in court. Small guy hits big guy and gets fucked up in return, big guy won’t end up in court. Reverse the roles, and we’re likely talking big guy getting fucked up by surrounding males, and possibly ending in court.

  24. 400Boyz: You asked if I’d written a letter or staged a protest. I wrote a letter. I’m not an activist.

    So you care, but not enough to do anything. The actual work you leave to others.

    Nice to see how strongly you hold your convictions about the horror of the double standards.

    Are you sure you want to open a can of worms by making special considerations because of male strength?

    I see you’re ability to assess the wisdom of engaging in a fight is on a par with your other analytic skills.

    I’m a pretty fighter. In hand to hand brawling I hold my own. I’m willing to entertain fights with people who outmass me; because I know what I can do.

    BUT, I’m not sanguine about it. Things happen. If the opponent has a weapon (be it a club, knife, beer glass, handful of dirt, cup of coffee) my advantages (smaller stature, willingness to inflict grave bodily harm, experience) can all be negated. If my antagonist also has skill in fighting I sure as hell need to take their size/speed into account (and for some sorts of fighting even if they don’t have training their sheer mass is a problem).

    So to say, “Oh, we can’t make considerations of “male” strength into account is to be a disingenuous sack of shit (there, now I’ve called you name).

  25. “Which tells me you’ve got nothing. Saatchi admitted to committing a crime (though he denies it now, pretending it was just a friendly caress on his part). For this admission he was given less than a slap on the wrist. He was told not to do it again, or something dire might might happen.

    Since Jay-Z, the offended party; on whose behalf you pretend this petulant tirade is based, chose not to press charges, and the offense (if any) wasn’t committed in the presence of any officers, there isn’t anything legally which can be done against Solange.”

    yeah, but you conveniently ignore that the police in the case of Saatchi rightly tried to do something based on a picture that was leaked. Nowhere did I see in the articles that his wife tried to press charges.

    Saatchi’s “admission” was the act of accepting the caution rap:

    “By accepting a caution, Mr Saatchi admitted he had assaulted his wife, but he had earlier played down the attack, claiming that the pictures taken outside a fashionable London restaurant merely showed the couple having a “playful tiff”.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/why-charles-saatchi-admitted-assaulting-nigella-20130619-2ohmt.html#ixzz35sgI4uyf

    yeah, he got less than a slap in the wrist by law enforcement, and Solange didn’t even get a talking to. His wife’s situation was taken seriously as it should have, while Jay Z’s got a mass smirk.

    So, yeah, I quit. There’s no double standard, and it’s misogynistic to even think there is one. Have fun in your ant hill.

  26. That’s three flounce posts in a row.

  27. Don’t forget to stick the flounce! (the best way to stick the flounce is to never datken the comment section again, btw)

  28. Agh, darken, dammit!

  29. And he’s already losing points…

  30. “400Boyz: You asked if I’d written a letter or staged a protest. I wrote a letter. I’m not an activist.

    So you care, but not enough to do anything. The actual work you leave to others.”

    Yeah, I’m sure everybody commenting here does the dirty work to earn the right to post here. Yeah. I guess futrelle, who wrote a whole post about it, gets out there to fight for male victims.

    Are you sure you want to open a can of worms by making special considerations because of male strength?

    “So to say, “Oh, we can’t make considerations of “male” strength into account is to be a disingenuous sack of shit (there, now I’ve called you name)”

    OK you dishonest dirt bag.

    So consideration of male strength needs to be taken into account before you even stand up for a man because, you know, men are tough enough to endure unwanted abuse like in the video. That’s basically what you’re arguing for, OK. And I guess if the guy is not hitting hard enough to hurt her, then by your logic, nobody should intervene.

    According to that same logic, we should also consider differences in strengh between men and women when it comes to jobs where physical strength is necessary.

    Yay for social justice.

  31. Yeah, I was trolled back into replying. Bye you hypocritical, argument distorting, truth denying, sophistic shitheads. Thanks for doing your part in keeping double standards alive.

  32. So consideration of male strength needs to be taken into account before you even stand up for a man because, you know, men are tough enough to endure unwanted abuse like in the video.

    Stop trying to twist words into a gotcha and stick the flounce, moron.

    If a gnat is teasing horse, I’m probably going to assume the horse could flatten the gnat if it had had enough.

    If a horse is teasing another horse, I’m probably not going to intervene for my own safety because either of them could flatten me.

    If a kitten is teasing another kitten, I will step in to prevent harm.

    With people, regardless of gender, it gets a little more complicated to assess. Is that a horse, a gnat or a kitten?

  33. Re-reads own comment. wasn’t meaning to minimise abuse by calling it “teasing”. Sorry for the insensitivity.

  34. Bye, 400boyz. Enjoy your letter writing and hope your letters make more sense than your comments.

  35. Four flounces, but he broke the streak.

  36. Can we not use “retard” around here?

  37. Dude, you’re moving into negative points territory here. If you say you’re gonna leave, just fucking leave.

  38. And if you can’t deal with mocking disagreement, might I suggest you fuck off to a blog more sympathetic to your views? It’s not like there’s a lack of choices.

  39. I’m pretty sure that was the final flounce.

    Unless we troll him into coming back, which is a concept so silly it actually made me chuckle.

    That and posting videos and articles which had already been thoroughly discussed, proving he hadn’t bothered to read the thread before wading in with his predictable twaddle.

  40. 400Boyz: Small guy hits big guy and gets fucked up in return, big guy won’t end up in court.

    Nope. Friend of mine (Marc MacYoung) makes his living as (among other things) an expert witness in self-defense cases. Almost all jurisdictions have requirements for proportional response (even Florida, famous for Zimmerman’s legalised murder of Trayvon Martin, has it). If someone hits you, and you proceed to beat the snot out of him, the odds are both of you get arrested. One for starting the fight (battery), you for beating on him after the need to defend yourself had passed (battery/aggravated assault).

    In most cases the subsequent batterer gets the more serious charge; because having subdued the person who was attacking you, the follow on beating is seen as more gratuitous; since at that point the (new) victim is almost certainly unable to put up a defense.

    OK you dishonest dirt bag.

    So consideration of male strength needs to be taken into account before you even stand up for a man because, you know, men are tough enough to endure unwanted abuse like in the video. That’s basically what you’re arguing for, OK. And I guess if the guy is not hitting hard enough to hurt her, then by your logic, nobody should intervene.

    Nope. Read what has been said. What I said (it’s right there, you can check) is that, absent a complaint by Jay-Z I’m not going to second guess him. That had he filed a complaint, and been told to pound sand, or to, “patch things up” I’d be upset.

    But you don’t care about that; and are willing to lie (directly this time) about my arguments, while presenting no counter-argument of your own; as you discard the weak arguments you didn’t make before: what with your passive aggressive, “you don’t want to go there”. I’m more than willing to go there; because I’ve been there, and hashed it all out.

    But you pull false-equivalence nonsense like this: According to that same logic, we should also consider differences in strengh between men and women when it comes to jobs where physical strength is necessary.

    Which is pretty good, it’s using a non-sequitur to have a strawman move a goalpost.

    What you probably mean (because it’s what your ilk usually mean) is that jobs like soldiering, and firefighting, etc. should be closed off to women because men are, as a rule, bulkier.

    What we argue is that if a person meets the standards for the job, they ought to have an equal chance to do the work. Which isn’t at odds with the basic premise of your argument.

    But honesty isn’t in you, or you’d not have changed the topic (assessing threat/evaluating actual harm/listening to the subject when they say they’ve been abused, or not) without getting around to making a concrete point. Nope, you leave an open ended accusation of double standard, hoping to get a chance to play gotcha.

    But hey, you left, so it’s all good.

  41. Argenti Aertheri

    Wow, Woody has shown an actual emotion! I’m impressed! Keep that anger up Woody, and use it to take a good long look at your beloved Elam.

  42. @400boyz U mad bro? (Sorry, it had to be said)

  43. IIRC, weren’t there physically present witnesses to Lawson being assaulted? Witnesses not affiliated with or related to either party? Because the evidence I’ve seen of the Solange/Jay-Z fight/assault is some really blurry, illegally released security camera footage, and everyone who witnessed it was family or employees. If Jay-Z didn’t want to talk to the police or pursue criminal action, I don’t see any way cops or prosecutors could have done anything.

    Note that I’m not saying Solange was right or that she shouldn’t face consequences for her actions, I just don’t know how legal consequences could be brought against her.

  44. Argenti Aertheri

    -4/10 — was boring in the first place, failed to stick the flounce, repeatedly, would not watch again.

    Pecunium — aw, u mad bro? Not like we don’t both know that if we got into a physical fight, despite being pretty much the same size, my only chance would be to duck and run. Not like training and skill and such have any role in anything, or anything like that!

    Ok, less snark. No, hitting people isn’t okay, yes, my involvement is going to depend on how dangerous the situation looks for those involved and for myself (I’m not exactly a large person, that bit about ducking and running wasn’t snark) So yes, man has a woman by the throat? This is why cell phones have 911 on speed dial (or at least mine does), woman slaps a man? *shakes head! glares, proceeds from there*

    I think those are the examples from the vid, but whatever, point stands that wtf I do depends on the risk to myself, and the people involved, I’ve certainly given women the death glare for less than a slap. Man risking serious injury to a woman? Sorry but not ending up injured myself is gonna trump getting directly involved, I haz cell.

    KathleenB — long time no see, how’s life and stuff and whatnot?

  45. Argenti Aertheri

    I think they were out to dinner, so yeah, probably LOTS of random witnesses.

  46. re witnesses: Unless it was a felony assault, witnesses don’t usually matter (Calif. is the only state I am really well acquainted with this, because when I was a security guard knowing this was part of the requirements).

    If the cop didn’t see it (for a misdemeanor) she can’t make an arrest on her own recognizance. So someone else has to effect the arrest and turn them over to the cops. If no one is willing to do that, then no arrest can be made.

    That’s how shoplifting arrests work. Store guard arrests you, immediately calls the cops. Swears out an afffadavit as to why they made the citizens arrest and the cop escorts you to jail.

    The only other way is if the victim goes to the cops and swears out a complaint.

    So, since there were no cops, and no one made a citizens arrest, it’s all up to Jay-Z. No one can talk about the stigma of making such a complaint, but I’d wager that’s as much an issue of fame as it is of the toxic masculinity in society.

    By which I mean that, were Jay-Z not famous, it would a lot easier for him to make such a complaint, but the “woman beat on a man” thing added to the aspect of him being famous makes it pretty much a non-starter.

    That would be a line of argument where 400Boyz might be able to make a case; but that would require being able to structure an argument, at which his skills seem to be somewhat lacking.

  47. Argenti Aertheri

    Wait, so if you witness something illegal, call the cops but otherwise stay out of it, unless it’s a felony you might as well have just kept walking? Even if it’s a case of “yes officer, that guy right there”?

    So, like, I could walk around with a drink in public and as long as I finished it before cops arrived I’d be fine? (Not that there’s anything up here I’d bloody drink that isn’t a mixed drink in the first place, but hey, it’s a less loaded example)

  48. Argenti – reminds me of the time the cops were called because a driver nearly killed a passenger alighting from a tram. Tramload of witnesses, got the bastard’s license … and the cops’ reaction was that they couldn’t do anything about it because they didn’t witness it. No idea whether that was the law or just lazy shits who didn’t care.

  49. It’s generally the law. Misdemeanors are mild breaches of the law. If anyone could say, “He crossed against the light” and then the fellow gets a ticket… think of the problems. It would make the false accusation a lot easier to use as a weapon.

    If the person contests it, then all that has to happen is for the accuser to not show up… case dismissed. But the time it takes (court, cop, judge, accused) is huge.

    And yes, I used an infraction, not a misdemeanor, but the same rules would apply. It would be chaos.

    So, (again, generally speaking) the requirement is, “A misdemeanor, committed in my presence.” and “Good reason to believe” for a felony. Because felonies are grave breaches of the peace.

  50. For a misdemeanor (better than the infraction) lets say someone accused someone else of pissing in public.

  51. Not sure how that goes with Oz law. This driver broke the law by speeding past a stationary tram, and nearly hit someone already stepping out of it. It’s a bit eyebrow-raising that the police’s attitude was essentially to wait until that scum had actually killed someone (which has happened with drivers doing that; I saw another occasion where a woman was hit). Even if they’d issued a traffic infringement notice, slapped a fine on them, that would have been something, but just shrugging it off … fuck them.

    Mind you the same mob (Victoria Police) shrug off actual assaults with witnesses, so I don’t suppose I should be surprised.

  52. Argenti Aertheri

    Ok, but then somehow it ceases being he said she said if you do step in with a citizens arrest? Doesn’t seem like that’d make much difference really.

    Logic, being killed by an impromptu song about ebay from my BF! Wrong thread for this, but infinitely more fun than Und’s ever had!

  53. assault is assault regardless.

    Um, no. What do you think those degrees of assault refer to?

    Look, I’m not saying what Solange did was OK. But you can’t pretend there isn’t a difference between how badly she hurt Jay-Z and how badly Chris Brown hit Rihanna.

    Is there a double standard? Yes. We’re aware of this. If you’d bothered to read any of the comments, you’d see we’ve already explained our objections to the video, and I challenge you to find one person saying they object because violence against men is being discussed.

  54. “Can we not use “retard” around here?
    My sincere apology about that one. :(

  55. But you can’t pretend there isn’t a difference between how badly she hurt Jay-Z and how badly Chris Brown hit Rihanna.

    Yeah. That’s where the argument that men and women are more or less equally victims of IPV turns into a version of “never mind the quality, feel the width“.

  56. Not sure how that goes with Oz law. This driver broke the law by speeding past a stationary tram, and nearly hit someone already stepping out of it. It’s a bit eyebrow-raising that the police’s attitude was essentially to wait until that scum had actually killed someone (which has happened with drivers doing that; I saw another occasion where a woman was hit). Even if they’d issued a traffic infringement notice, slapped a fine on them, that would have been something, but just shrugging it off … fuck them.

    That sounds like an infraction. As such I’d expect there is nothing which can be done unless the police are willing to raise the bar to a felony. In theory again in Calif., they could argue it was Felony Reckless driving, but that’s a high bar, and would probably be thrown out of court.

    Ok, but then somehow it ceases being he said she said if you do step in with a citizens arrest? Doesn’t seem like that’d make much difference really.

    In Calif. the act of a citizen arrest means the police have to get involved, so long as the arresting party will swear out the affadavit. Since not swearing it out = false arrest (and a short trip to a summary judgement in a civil suit) it’s folly to not.

    So yeah, there is a big difference.

  57. Argenti Aertheri

    Ah, so the citizen’s arrest basically means you’re sure enough to have to swear to it.

  58. Rules for citizens arrest (in Calif.) are:

    1: Any adult citizen can make one.
    2: It must be a misdemeanor committed in your presence, or a felony you have good reason to believe the person committed.
    3: You must inform them they are being arrested, by you, as a private citizen
    3a You must, as soon as possible, inform the police you have made an arrest.
    4: You may use such force as is required to keep them in custody until the police arrive.
    4a: You may deputise other citizens to assist in such detention.
    5: You may search them for weapons which might pose a danger to yourself, or others. (i.e. a Terry Search
    6: When the police arrive, you surrender the person to them, swear out the affadavit and they process it.

    Not only did I have to learn all this when I was a security guard, we had to go over it all as part of my annual Riot/Civil Disturbance training, since Nat. Guard soldiers have no more power to arrest than any other citizen: Federal Soldiers have less)

    The thing about it (though Nat. Guard soldiers gets some “good faith” protections in practice) is if you fuck up any one of those, you can be sued. So you’d better have your ducks in a row.

    It’s also possible that you do it all perfectly, no grounds for a lawsuit, and the cops still decline to actually book them/process a police arrest. But the grounds they use to reject it will (usually) keep you from paying a huge lawsuit.

    I quite a security gig once, because my supervisor abused the conditional authority he had to abuse someone he was effecting a questionable citizens arrest of. Took the, “such force as required” idea as an excuse to beat someone he was pissed at. Since the arrest was otherwise legal (if morally questionable) he got away with it.

    The company, however, went belly up shortly after that.

  59. Argenti Aertheri

    Ah, so the “sure enough to risk charges for illegal detention” part. Gotcha.

  60. False arrest, actually.

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