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antifeminism creep-shaming elliot rodger entitled babies entitlement hypocrisy irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misandry misogyny MRA post contains sarcasm reddit straw feminists the eternal solipsism of the MRA mind

Men's Rights Activists respond to the Elliot Rodger murders with a hearty "Nothing to see here! Move along!"

nothing-to-see-here
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If anyone was hoping – against their better judgement – that Men’s Rights activists would be inspired by the tragedy in Isla Vista to reconsider any of their beliefs, or even to reflect for a moment on the many striking similarities between passages in Elliot Rodger’s book-length manifesto and comments posted every day by MRAs and others in the manosphere, well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you should not keep that hope alive.

It’s not that they’re not talking about the tragedy. A look through the top 100 posts in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the largest Men’s Rights forum online, reveals that roughly a third of them, including the top stickied post, relate in some way to Elliot Rodger’s rampage and the discussions that have come up online and in the media in its aftermath.

But the message of virtually all of these posts is: “Nothing to see here! Move along!” There are numerous posts expressing outrage that anyone would see any connection between Rodger’s toxic misogyny to the Men’s Rights movement; there are others mocking and attacking the #YesAllWomen hashtag; there’s even one suggesting that Rodger, who wrote about how he longed to watch all the women of the world starve to death in concentration camps, wasn’t actually a misogynist at all.

Take a look. One post, with more than 500 upvotes, complains:

Feminists highjack what should be a Mental Health issue.
Another post makes a strikingly similar complaint:

Feminists Hijack A Mass Murder To Boost Self-Esteem
One angry MRA asks:

Why am I being compared to a mentally ill, narcissistic, racist, misogynist, sociopathic serial killer?
Another wonders:

So at this point would it be worth it to look into a Defamation suit against those trying to link MRA's with the recent tragedy?

Sorry to break it to you, fella, but that’s not how defamation suits work. If it were, all of us who call ourselves feminists would be collecting millions of dollars from the Men’s Rights subreddit for all the patently untrue things you guys say about us every day of every week.

Still others make sure that everyone knows that Rodger hated men too – not that this has actually gone unnoticed in the media or in discussions of the tragedy.

Proof that Elliot Rodger Hates Men
Finally! The MSM acknowledges that Elliot Roger hated *MEN*

And then there’s this fellow, who seems to think that Rodger only hated men, and that his big problem with women was that he loved them too much:

Elliot Rodgers the Misandrist. (self.MensRights) submitted 13 hours ago by TheWhimsicalFox In listening to Elliot's videos, and reading some of his manifesto, I almost feel as if this guy really just hated men. It seems as if he put women on a pedestal and held such an adoration for them that he could not understand how the "beasts" (among other terms)/men got to date them. This is a totally new idea for me, I haven't really thought it through for longer than a minute or two. So that's why I'm taking it here. What do you guys think?
There are, it’s true, two posts that raise the issue of what might be done to prevent tragedies like this from happening in the future. One of them takes on the issue of “virgin shaming.” (Sure, I’m against that, and against slut shaming too. Odd that roughly 100% of the virgin shaming I’ve ever heard in my life has come from MRAs and other non-fans of this blog, even though — sorry to break it to you fellows — I’ve not been a virgin since the early Reagan administration.)

Meanwhile, the other “positive” suggestion  — the stickied top post, submitted by one of the forum’s moderators — is pretty transparently intended as a PR move – and an excuse to bash feminists.

Time to get positive. What would help alienated men? (self.MensRights) submitted 20 hours ago * by nicemod - stickied post The recent tragedy in California has focused attention on troubled young men. Attempts by feminists to associate our movement with violence have met with little success, but have drawn many curious people to see what we're about. We can take advantage of this by proposing positive, male-friendly solutions to such problems. Proposals by feminists, based on the false assumption that maleness is inherently bad, will not work. What will? How could society effectively address male problems such as Loneliness Mental illness Alienation from society Virgin shaming Creep shaming Depression Demonisation What other issues need to be looked at? Please discuss.
Yep, “creep shaming.” That’s the problem! Way to cut through all the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter! The problem isn’t that some men — well, a lot of men — think and act in predatory and entitled ways towards women. The problem is that sometimes when they do, women call them “creeps.”

The problem isn’t that the world’s creepiest and most entitled man just killed 6 innocent people, the problem is “creep shaming.”

After killing his roommates and a friend of theirs, Rodger attempted to get inside a sorority so he could massacre the women inside it. But he couldn’t get anyone to let him in. Probably because, well, whoever was nearest the door thought he looked a  bit, well, creepy.

“Creep-shaming” isn’t some insidious form of discrimination against awkward men. It’s a defense mechanism that women develop to protect them against predatory men. And in the case of the Isla Vista murders, I’m guessing that the willingness of women to go with their gut sense that Rodger was a creep literally saved lives.

But the mods of the Men’s Rights subreddit would rather moan about “creep shaming.” They would prefer that women lower their defenses against men like Elliot Rodger — because it hurts their feelings to sometimes get called a “creep.”

Guys, this is why people think Elliot Rodger was an MRA.

EDIT: I added more to the conclusion because I had more to say about creep shaming.

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dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Nooooooooooo! Though, to be fair, I am probably already facing that for not donating living space, food, and unending attentions and affections to Our Great Overlords, Their Fuzzinesses, The Furrinati. For the most-furred one in my apartment is… the husbutt!

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

I just came back to catch up on this thread and Sheety . . . well, wasn’t boring to me, I’ll give him that . . . that was a Non-Sequitur Spectacular.

And you have all made me laugh very hard. Harder than ever before. Please say you’ll never make me laugh that hard again.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Grumpycatisagirl:

We will never make you laugh that hard again.
Polar bears are one of three extant marine mammals in the order Carnivora.

One of those statements was true.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Excluding Pinnipedia, for kicks.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

That would have worked better if I was awake. Brain is in hibernate.

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

That’s okay, I’m not awake either, so hahahahaha.

kittehserf
6 years ago

For the most-furred one in my apartment is… the husbutt!

He’s a were-cat! 😯

Suzy
Suzy
6 years ago

wow wow wow such entitlement

I see it in the real world too. It’s depressing 🙁

Tracy
6 years ago

@Racnad

The original post mentions virgin-shaming. I think it’s worth it to examine how popular culture promotes the notion that being sexually active is part of the definition of being an adult. … But between the natural sex drive and popular culture messages suggesting something’s wrong with you if you’re not sexually active, I can imagine what a virgin past the age of 20 must feel.

No the solution is not some sort of sexual affirmative action plan. Nor does this justify the actions of Eliot Rogers or the hateful MGTOW videos I put myself through listening to for the first time yesterday.

Pop culture in general is pretty messed up in how it portrays sexuality in general. Boys/men should be pursuing sex in all (heterosexual) forms with as many women as possible and if they aren’t getting laid, there’s something wrong with them; girls/women should, of course, be doing the opposite and if they don’t, they’re sluts. Non-het sex isn’t even on the radar, of course.

I’d like to see any sort of sexuality-shaming go the way of the dodo.

On a related note, I had to introduce a client of mine to the MGTOW/MRA etc world yesterday. Long story short, we run live events and one of our videographers had taken extra footage (ie: cutting room floor stuff) of a woman speaking, posted it on YT, and linked to it from a MGTOW forum as an example of something. The woman on the video was alerted to this by someone she didn’t know, who was able to find her in about 5 minutes of googling after seeing the video (which had 10K+ hits and really, really awful comments).

My client asked my opinion of whether we should continue to use this videographer – I said no based on the legal/ethical violation in general (he seriously violated the terms of our agreement with him as per use of material), and then explained to him what MGTOW was and what sort of people this guy exposed this woman to by posting her stuff there. This site was helpful – thanks David 🙂

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

My client asked my opinion of whether we should continue to use this videographer

Dear gods, your client had to ask?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Nor does this justify the actions of Eliot Rogers or the hateful MGTOW videos I put myself through listening to for the first time yesterday.

So, just to be clear, you’ve been trying to splain this stuff to us and tell us what our responses to it should be ever since you first showed up here, and it’s only now that you’re actually bothering to check out the source material yourself? Wow, misogynists are so lazy.

Stevie
Stevie
6 years ago

titianblue

Oh yes, it can take some time for it to filter through the brain, even of someone who is not explicitly misogynistic, that this is Not Cool. I have always felt that it’s worth the effort to engage in explanation at least once, even if it’s pretty obviously a Hail Mary Pass, since sometimes it works.

I do think we need to get out of the shame trap altogether; it’s immensely destructive and I have never seen anyone benefit from it. When MRAs claim we are creep shaming they are lying; we communicate about guys who deliberately endanger us because they endanger us, and none of us are under the illusion that a guy who endangers women is going to stop doing it because a woman successfully made him ashamed of himself. That sort of fairy tale is fine in fairy tales but in the real world it is incredibly dangerous.

It’s also an example of the false equivalences which the MRAs try to push, and I decline absolutely to sign up to any of those false equivalences…

Suzy
Suzy
6 years ago

So I read some of what the troll posted. Apparently, if a woman says “no” she’s violating the “basic human rights” of a man and that man’s “right’s” are more important than her right bodily autonomy.

This type of thinking comes from the notion that sex is a basic need (which it isn’t) A lot of boys/men seem to think like that, unfortunately. Some think they would die without sex. Some think it’s as important as eating,drinking, pooping and peeing (which are actually basic human needs). Hell, even those needs don’t trump another human being’s right to bodily autonomy.

Male entitlement is fucking annoying. And also DEADLY. Get it in your heads, trolls.

Thankfully, it seems like more and more men are becoming aware of how messed up this type of thinking and behavior is. There’s light at the end of the tunnel.

Tracy
6 years ago

@titianblue Yeah, he had to ask. He’s very non-confrontational, but jeez – this was a no-brainer. For me the ethical violation was enough, and was compounded by the context in which he posted this woman’s video. Client was willing to give him another shot, for chrissakes, until I explained why the context made this extra special bad (I had to resort to “If he had posted video of you in the Stormfront forum as an example of why Jewish people suck and a bunch of neo-nazi folk then used you as a point of discussion, would you be so willing to keep him on?” to make him see that this was also motivated by bigotry/prejudice)

Tracy
6 years ago

Oh yes, it can take some time for it to filter through the brain, even of someone who is not explicitly misogynistic, that this is Not Cool.

I’ve never really, really grokked how often misogyny/sexism gets a pass, or is completely overlooked (as in not even seen/noticed) until all this ER shit, and then with my client yesterday. How some people don’t WANT to see, because it’s uncomfortable. Even how some women don’t see it, because it’s always been there as noise in the background. And it makes me wonder what I don’t see, or refuse to see.

talacaris
6 years ago

But hey, everyone is entitled to sex, with one catch.
Guess what that can be!

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Like last time, I’m not coming back.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!

kittehserf
6 years ago

I’ve never really, really grokked how often misogyny/sexism gets a pass, or is completely overlooked (as in not even seen/noticed) until all this ER shit, and then with my client yesterday. How some people don’t WANT to see, because it’s uncomfortable. Even how some women don’t see it, because it’s always been there as noise in the background. And it makes me wonder what I don’t see, or refuse to see.

It’s the “fish don’t have a word for water” thing. Misogyny is everywhere, our culture is steeped in it, and it’s particularly easy for those who never experience it, and indeed benefit, even unwittingly, from it, to be utterly unaware of it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

If you’re white then I’m guessing the thing you sometimes don’t see is racism. My parents lived in Texas for a while when I was a teenager, and it took me an embarrassingly long time to a. notice how weirdly polite some black men were to me, and how much they went out of their way to be super respectful even when they were old enough to be in the can-tell-me-to-shut-up-and-go-do-my-homework category from my perspective, and b. figure out why they might have been socialized to react to me that way, especially when there were a bunch of white men around.

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

I like this guy’s sign. It says:

“Violence against women begins with a belief and ends with an action. It’s time to address the former and not just the latter”

Which is spot on IMO.

Howard Bannister
6 years ago

@Cassandrakitty

Or, in the immortal words of Douglas Adams:

“It is difficult to be sat on all day, every day, by some other creature, without forming an opinion on them.

On the other hand, it is perfectly possible to sit all day, every day, on top of another creature and not have the slightest thought about them whatsoever.”

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

I remember telling a friend years ago that the reason why “it’s a white thing, you wouldn’t understand” isn’t a valid concept is that, in the US, not understanding ‘the white thing’ is potentially lethal (for a PoC). White privilege is the freedom not to realize that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yep. It tends to be easier to explain this concept to people who’re lacking privilege on at least one axis, and from there to get them to see how it applies to all kinds of different situations. How you explain it to straight middle class white dudes, who can get through life just fine without seeing anyone else’s perspective if they choose to…well, we’re probably farther ahead on curing cancer than we are on that particular project.

talacaris
6 years ago

Which of course is that it not extends to sex with others.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

I think there’s an argument to be made that sex is a basic human urge (for a majority of humans) and that the freedom to pursue sex and other forms of companionship shouldn’t be restricted (by, say, the sending of children into celibate church life or the criminalization of extramarital sex, etc). But as Kittehs and others have pointed out, when you frame sex as a basic right, you run into the issue of who is going to provide it, and risk putting Person B on the chopping block to meet person A’s “right” to sex.

Even how some women don’t see it, because it’s always been there as noise in the background.

There’s also the fact that wehn we point it out, we are often told we’re overreacting or reading too much into things. Women are basically gaslit en masse into thinking misogyny doesn’t exists.

It tends to be easier to explain this concept to people who’re lacking privilege on at least one axis, and from there to get them to see how it applies to all kinds of different situations.

Yup. Once I got my brain around homophobia and misogyny (being bi and female), it wasn’t a huge leap to understand what (for example) PoC and trans people were saying about their own experiences. It’s part of why I’m so frustrated with white feminists expressing other oppressive *isms: how do you not see the same patterns at work?

leftwingfox
6 years ago

But as Kittehs and others have pointed out, when you frame sex as a basic right, you run into the issue of who is going to provide it, and risk putting Person B on the chopping block to meet person A’s “right” to sex.

“The right to rub one out ends where my body begins”?

Falconer
6 years ago

How you explain it to straight middle class white dudes, who can get through life just fine without seeing anyone else’s perspective if they choose to…well, we’re probably farther ahead on curing cancer than we are on that particular project.

Well, I like to think I’m working on it, although probably I have way further to go than I think.

I hope I can teach it to my children.

pecunium
6 years ago

BLS: In fact men and women are entitled to sex and attention because guess what, those are natural human needs.

Nope. Desires yes (and not all people share them, nor to the same level when they do). But if I have a need, that means it’s essential to my survival. Sex ain’t like that.

And if I have a need, it’s proper to insist that others help me obtain it. With sex/attention that, somewhere along the line, means someone else loses autonomy. At which point it’s not an equal expression of “need”.

So logically (as well as morally) this is nonsense.

I didn’t claim any of those things. In fact, my argument is that you people DO NOT represent real feminism. You guys are frauds.

(putting aside the problematic “represent feminism” We don’t claim to represent it. We claim to be feminist):

How so? Why should we care that you have declared us to be non-feminists? Are you from the Central Committee? Will you take away my membership card? Evict me from, “The Movement”? Am I to be shunned wherever Good Feminists Gather?

Nope. Because there isn’t any such metric.

I say I am feminist because I think men and women deserve to be treated as if they were all people, with the rights, privileges and responsibilitie which come of it.

Fuck off creep to you right back. Isn’t there someone else you should be telling that to?

I don’t know, is there another person being creepy to her?

@kittehserf Any suggestion that person A is not entitled to sex, or does not have a right to it, means that sooner or later there’s a person B whose right to bodily autonomy is taken away from them.

The same conclusion follows from the opposite assertion based on a different context.

What? The opposite assertion would be that if person A doesn’t want sex, they are entitled to not have sex. (since you posited sex was a need; and so a person who wants it is entitled to it).

How, pray tell, does someone being able to not have sex deprive anyone else of bodily autonomy?

And no I am not a PUA, you should know, you talk to them all the time. Do they talk like me? Do their arguments sound anything like mine?

Anything like implies a difference, so no, they don’t sound like your arguments. They are identical to them.

Like last time, I’m not coming back.

The essence of the flounce, distilled.

Suzy
Suzy
6 years ago

Just like pecunium said, there needs to be a distinction between urges and basic needs. You are not going to die without sex, lack of sex doesn’t lead to death, therefore it is not a need, it’s a DESIRE. Yes, it is essential to the survival of the species, but not to the survival of the individual.
By saying that sex is a basic human need, we’re also stigmatizing asexual people who don’t even desire sex.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Not getting the opportunity to reproduce because of a lack of desirable traits or possessing undesirable ones is selection. That’s natural too. Elliot Rodger not getting laid didn’t effect the survival of the species nor did it kill him. There are already too many of us and most of us will get the opportunity to reproduce more than once meaning Rodger’s participation is entirely unnecessary for the survival of the species.

Rodger didn’t kill himself because of bullying. He killed himself because other people didn’t give him that which he felt entitled to. That’s entirely on him, not anyone else.

Suzy
Suzy
6 years ago

marinerachel

That’s absolutely correct. There are still a lot of people who argue otherwise, though. It’s depressing.

booburry
booburry
6 years ago

I just have to commend the commenters here for their work on all these threads of late. I don’t even have the stomach to read troll’s comments except when they are being quoted and ripped to shreds by you guys.
Even if the arguments presented don’t sink in one bit for the trolls, it is being read by lurkers like myself and I think that is important. Thanks for that. 🙂

kittehserf
6 years ago

“The right to rub one out ends where my body begins”?

Nailed it! XD

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

I’v been reading this for awhile and I thought its great but I think there a few men on here who seem to have misandry so trigger warning

menagainstassholesandmisogyny.tumblr.com/

http://youtu.be/0Bmhjf0rKe8

Ally S
6 years ago

Any suggestion that person A is not entitled to sex, or does not have a right to it, means that sooner or later there’s a person B whose right to bodily autonomy is taken away from them.

Fuck off with your gross mental gymnastics. If this is all so hard for you to comprehend (which it isn’t), here’s a simpler version of what we’re trying to tell you:

Don’t sexually abuse people.

Got it? Good. Now get the fuck out of here, creep, and never show yourself here again.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Ally: Troll boy didn’t quote Kitteh properly, that was her original quote.

Ally S
6 years ago

@hellkell

Oh. Oops. Sorry about that, kitteh. I’m currently in rage mode towards trolls today, and evidently it can make me jump ahead carelessly.

Black Linen Sheets
Black Linen Sheets
6 years ago

They say don’t feed the trolls, but here I am.

I just wanted to address the bodily autonomy question because it seems your tiny little pea brains don’t get it.

If I concent to sex with someone and they do too, we are entitled to and have a right to have sex with each other. So that is the different context I was referring to. Now burn in hell with your worthless abstractions, I prefer to live in the real world.

I mean I never thought I would be arguing with a bunch of “feminists” about whether women are entitled to sex if they consent, and what I’m reading is consistently no.

@emilygodess was close but she too forgets that women actually do consent to sex from time to time and a lot of times people get in the way, even if the other person agrees.

Can I ask what this website’s agenda is? You guys seem really suspect from a real feminist perspective. Especially in your trollish immature responses.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

Can I ask what your agenda is? You still haven’t told us what a “real feminist” is, or whatever that porn thing was you were going on about.

@emilygodess was close but she too forgets that women actually do consent to sex from time to time

Dude, what?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Sheety is a bit transparent. The linen he’s made of must be awfully poor quality.

Ally S
6 years ago

“If I concent to sex with someone and they do too, we are entitled to and have a right to have sex with each other”

wut

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Where did anyone say women can’t consent to sex? I think BLS does not quite understand the definition of the word ‘entitlement.’

As for the porn star thing; I’m assuming BLS is one of those people who gets angry if a blog doesn’t cover each specific topic zie wants at any given moment. Zie needs to understand that this is a niche blog for mocking the manosphere misogyny and not a blog that covers general social and political issues.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

I just literally don’t know what BLS is on about half the time. I think they posted a comment that David didn’t let through, and it had something to do with porn performers and suicide. And yeah, it’s a “why aren’t you talking about my pet issue” thing, because now BLS wants to know why we don’t care about whatever it was. I think. It’s really hard to tell, and my repeated requests for clarification have gone unheeded.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I have no idea if I care about whatever it is that he’s on about, since I still don’t know what that thing is.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

If I concent to sex with someone and they do too, we are entitled to and have a right to have sex with each other. So that is the different context I was referring to. Now burn in hell with your worthless abstractions, I prefer to live in the real world.

No, that means those two people are consenting to sex, which is great. But that doesn’t mean that either one are “entitled” to sex from the other. Consent can be withdrawn at any point by either part without the other party being “entitled” to sex when that consent is withdrawn.

This is pretty basic human decency, really. And it’s really not abstract in the slightest. It’s pretty easy: no-one is entitled to another person’s body. Simple.

BLS, you seem to not understand the difference between “consent” and “entitlement.”

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Sparky, I can help BLS with that confusion:

A) con·sent verb kən-ˈsent
: to agree to do or allow something
: to give permission for something to happen or be done

intransitive verb
1: to give assent or approval : agree
2 archaic : to be in concord in opinion or sentiment

— con·sent·er noun
— con·sent·ing·ly adverb

Examples of CONSENT
He was reluctant at first but finally consented.

B) consent noun
: permission for something to happen or be done
: agreement about an opinion or about something that will happen or be done

1: compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by another : acquiescence
2: agreement as to action or opinion; specifically : voluntary agreement by a people to organize a civil society and give authority to the government

Examples of CONSENT
He did not give his consent for the use of his name in the advertisement.
No one may use the vehicle without the consent of the owner.

en·ti·tle·ment noun -ˈtī-təl-mənt
: the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something
: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)
: a type of financial help provided by the government for members of a particular group

1a : the state or condition of being entitled : right
1b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2: a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program
3: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges

Examples of ENTITLEMENT
my entitlement to a refund
celebrities who have an arrogant sense of entitlement
entitlements such as medical aid for the elderly and poor

Note the difference there BLS?

Black Linen Sheets
Black Linen Sheets
6 years ago

Argenti,
Of course I do. Consent is a condition for entitlement when talking about sex. Sparky just doesn’t get it because I am clearly putting consent as a precondition to being entitled to sex.

But what about rights? Because sex is part of human nature and humans have a right to their human nature. But that could change. Not only our rights but our human nature. Science is scary.

Maybe I was too harsh calling you guys fake feminists, but you guys definitely are rhetoric heavy. That’s what I mean when I say I would rather live in the real world instead of the world of abstractions.

Most premises based on abstractions, especially ethical ones, can easily be turned upside down and result in an equally valid assertion.

So my belief is that a lot of rhetorical feminism simply results in retributive finger pointing in an opportunistic way that actually ends up serving patriarchy.

Think about MRA’s. Do men not deserve rights? Of course they do, everyone does, but what really matters is not the words men and rights but what those words end up encouraging in the real world.

And my belief is that a lot of rhetorical feminism is guilty of this too, just from the other side of things.

The fundamental problem with Rodger and similar cases is this imo:
Pull up any porn website and you see millions upon millions of young women, often very attractive, doing horrible things for chump change much of the time. Some have even been bullied and shamed to suicide. Rodger was a nice middle (upper-middle) class kid that wasn’t noticeably messed up or unattractive.

But if women are treated like property, then the laws of capitalism apply to their bodies, not the law of consent and human rights. And in that case, that control is in someone else’s hand, just like when they say there are more empty houses and apartments than homeless people.

What I’m obviously referring to is ideology, that is, the way that an obvious truth is consistently denied and swept under the rug, even violently sometimes. And with all the insults and response from this blog, how can any of you claim to be any better than the MRA’s, PUA’s, etc? I don’t think you are (except maybe that other one that was real shitty with the guy that said Rodger didn’t kill enough women).

Instead of feeding the phony psychiatric industry lie machine with the smug and smarmy criticisms of Rodger’s misogyny and mental health problems, why not highlight Rodger as an example of how patriarchy harms men as much as women sometimes. And in this patriarchy, different sorts of mental health issues develop with an industry not willing to honestly deal with them since they too are invested in patriarchy and misogyny. Well, that would make too much sense, wouldn’t it.

And I’m not excusing what he did. But that sort of response is typical of how patriarchy socializes young men, isn’t it. And so was the response on this website. Angry scathing invective at what is obvious and self apparent.

But it isn’t always so I think it deserves to be mentioned.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
6 years ago

And with all the insults and response from this blog, how can any of you claim to be any better than the MRA’s, PUA’s, etc? I don’t think you are

JFC, are you serious? I was reading this comment and even agreeing with some of it, until I got to this part. TIL that calling misogynists names is just as bad as calling for the right to beat and rape women.

why not highlight Rodger as an example of how patriarchy harms men as much as women sometimes.

Because Rodger is a crystal-clear example of how the patriarchy harms women, and I refuse to focus on the poor abused murderer over his victims.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

BLS, bullshit.

This isn’t rhetoric of abstraction, it’s women’s lives and bodies.

But what about rights? Because sex is part of human nature and humans have a right to their human nature. But that could change. Not only our rights but our human nature. Science is scary.

Nope. Sex is not a right. I don’t know why you don’t understand this, and it’s frightening that you don’t appear to. Yes, sexuality is part of human nature and everyone is entitled to their own sexuality (and, different people have differing sex drives and likes/dislikes and some people don’t have a lot or any sex drive and all of that is okay), but if an act includes more than one person, then all parties must consent to the act.

No, no one is entitled to the use of another person’s body without their consent. No, no one has a right to another person’s body without their consent. It doesn’t matter how badly one person wants to have sex with another person, no one has a right to use another person’s body.

Because people are not things to be used, to satisfy one’s needs.

Again this is pretty damned basic. This is treating people like people. The fact that this very basic part if being a decent human seems like abstract rhetoric to you is very telling.

Most premises based on abstractions, especially ethical ones, can easily be turned upside down and result in an equally valid assertion.

Again, this is not an abstraction, and this is bullshit. The only way to turn “no one has a right to the use of another person’s body without their consent” upside done is to say, “one does have a right to use another person’s body without their consent.” Which is not valid, but is fucking wrong.

And with all the insults and response from this blog, how can any of you claim to be any better than the MRA’s, PUA’s, etc? I don’t think you are (except maybe that other one that was real shitty with the guy that said Rodger didn’t kill enough women).

We are better than MRA’s and PUA’s because we believe that women are human beings just like men are. The fact that you can’t see a difference here just because we swear and use snark and mock the hateful and ignorant says way more about you than about us.

Why do you keep bringing up adult entertainers? No one here would say that adult entertainers being bullied into suicide is okay. We would all condemn it, and the societal double standards and sexism that lies behind the bullying. But there is absolutely no parallels between an adult entertained being bullied into suicide and Rodger. Rodger chose to kill people because he was an entitled, misogynist shit. The only thing that the two cases have in common is misogyny.

But if women are treated like property, then the laws of capitalism apply to their bodies, not the law of consent and human rights. And in that case, that control is in someone else’s hand, just like when they say there are more empty houses and apartments than homeless people.

No one here is arguing that women’s bodies are property. We are arguing the exact opposite. Where the hell did you get this from?

What I’m obviously referring to is ideology, that is, the way that an obvious truth is consistently denied and swept under the rug, even violently sometimes.

Yes, the obvious truth that Rodger was a misogynist who killed because he hated women is being swept under the rug. We’re not the ones who doing it here.

Instead of feeding the phony psychiatric industry lie machine with the smug and smarmy criticisms of Rodger’s misogyny and mental health problems, why not highlight Rodger as an example of how patriarchy harms men as much as women sometimes.

Because Rodger clearly wasn’t harmed by patriarchy. He had a charmed and privileged life, being given anything he ever wanted. Patriarchy never harmed Rodger, he actively benefitted from it. And men are not harmed as much as women under patriarchy.

And in this patriarchy, different sorts of mental health issues develop with an industry not willing to honestly deal with them since they too are invested in patriarchy and misogyny. Well, that would make too much sense, wouldn’t it.

That makes no sense. You appear to have no understanding of what a mental illness is and what patriarchy is.

[A discussion of how mental illness and misogyny intersect in the patriarchy would be interesting, but this isn’t whats going on with Rodger. Rodger was not disadvantaged by the patriarchy, nor did mental illness cause his hate or his actions.]

And I’m not excusing what he did. But that sort of response is typical of how patriarchy socializes young men, isn’t it. And so was the response on this website. Angry scathing invective at what is obvious and self apparent.

Oh yes, pardon is for being angry when a privileged man kills people after explicitly stating he is going to kill people be because he hates women. Excuse us for being angry when everything under the sun is being used to excuse this man’s actions in order to not place responsibility on him or the misogyny that inspired. Excuse us for being angry at having to live in in a world saturated with misogyny, that is excuses men’s violence against women in all it’s forms and refuses to see a pattern or care very much when women’s bodies are used and abused. Oh yes, what typical stooges of the patriarchy we are to be pissed off at the patriarchy!

BLS, you make no damned sense.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Sheety should hire himself out as a contortionist. He sure is pretzelling his argument to a remarkable degree in order to try to justify the idea that unequivocally condemning murder motivated by misogyny is similar to as just as bad as writing date rape how-to’s/instructing your readers to never convict a rapist. What really not particularly demanding ethical bar will he attempt to limbo under next? Find out on the next edition of As The Troll Whinges.