Pickup artists argue that “Game” is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.
From Elliot Rodger’s Google+ Profile
Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!
While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.
In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote
If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.
The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.
Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.
On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:
He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.
In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:
I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .
Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,
Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …
When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?
According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:
He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.
Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”
Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.
One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.
Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:
Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.
Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:
I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.
But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:
If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.
In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”
There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.
So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?
You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.
Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.
The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.
Posted on May 24, 2014, in all about the menz, alpha males, beta males, boner rage, empathy deficit, entitlement, evil sexy ladies, evil women, heartiste, imaginary oppression, incel, internecine warfare, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, narcissism, nice guys, playing the victim, PUA, PUAhate, red pill, rhymes with roosh, self-congratulation and tagged elliot rodger, heartiste, incel, misogyny, pick-up artists, pickup artists, PUA, roosh. Bookmark the permalink. 1,747 Comments.
I’d just like to say, this is my first time on this blog, I’m bookmarking it. These comment sections seem to contain the most reasoned, ethical, and intelligent arguments I’ve ever seen on the internet (minus the trolls). Then let me mention the fact that this terrible event has exposed me for the first time to PUAs, “game” and the like. I’m already on board with you folks. Thanks.
I really had no idea of the MRA/PUA depravity.
@Zolnier
Oh, go ahead and throw me. I’m fat, and can float like nobody’s business.
But as for “taking one for the team” and having sex with a misogynistic, murderous, selfish jerk, ummmmm, no.
I don’t mind taking the “you are so mean! mean misandrist meanypants!” complaints from the trolls for the team. Sex with an MRA? Nope, sorry, I love you guys and all but that is truly a bridge too far.
I would rather drink whiskey than have sex with an MRA.
@racnad
Piffle! There have been self-help books and groups, social clubs, and such for a good long time, that didn’t involve “negging” other people, isolating them, or any of that other PUA crap.
“How to Make Friends and Influence People” was a famous book for a long time. I’m pretty sure it didn’t tell people they should treat women like objects to be used, or enemies to be conquered.
Instead of learning “Game,” learn how to be a good person, a valuable member of your community, and be interested in other people. If you then manage to achieve a successful romantic partnership, then that’s wonderful! If you don’t, you’ll still find happiness in being a good person and valuable member of your community, with lots of interesting friends.
Ken L: I am arguing nothing. I am simple saying that Occam’s Razor’s does not work in this case and that it is not just misogyny that cause these guys to kill. There is something that make these specific misogynists more violent then the rest. I honestly don’t know what it but it must be something.
So… by this metric no one who kills is really at fault. Because for everyone who does kill, there are thousands, even millions, of people in similar circumstances/posessed of similar beliefs, etc., who don’t.
Sorry. Not helpful. The opposite, in fact. What stops those other people? They don’t have as much hate.
That’s pretty much it. They are somewhat more thoughtful (the only murderer I personally know didn’t intend to kill anyone, which doesn’t mean it wasn’t murder, just that he let his passions get the better of his judgement in a gang fight), or somewhat less hateful.
Killing other people is not something that is a given to our nature.
Not proven. I’ve got a lot of history which implies quite the reverse, and some of it is pretty recent (Rwanda, the Former Yugoslavia, the European expansion into the Americas).
Because killing, qua killing, isn’t that strange a thing for people to do.
So the question isn’t how, but why. For Rodger the why is, “I hate women more than I think killing them is wrong”.
I’m going to tell you something which isn’t a secret. I got paid for being willing to kill people. I, actually, still get paid for having been willing to kill people.
I will get paid for that until the day I die.
I know, personally, a few thousand people who did the same (though not all get a pension from it). There are millions of such people (men and women) in the US right now. Some of the people I know who did this aren’t USians, but Brits, Canadians, Ukrainians, Germans, Nederlanders, Swiss, Greeks, Poles, Albanians, Russians, Romanians, Kazakhs, Swedes, Bulgarians, Georgians, and hailing from I forget where all else.
Being willing to kill isn’t all that alien.
Even if that was their sole mission (and it isn’t), the material they churn out is undeniably supportive of abuse and oppression.
Feeling ignored by women is not in fact that greatest crisis of our times. How about we try to solve poverty first, then communicable diseases (did you know polio is coming backing? fucking anti-vaxx idiots), then if we have some energy left over we can work on racism, sexism, and so on. Unpetted penises – not actually a top global priority.
It’s always, always about the MENZ and their neeeeeeeeed for sex, and how awful it is that the women (ie the hot babes, not those awful ugly other women) aren’t giving it to them. Not even “giving on demand” but “reading their minds and offering without the men having to bother talking or any of that hard stuff”.
It’s never, never about women, cis or trans. Or non-binary people. Or anyone other than cis het dudes, preferably white for the usual racist icing on the cake. No, they’re the only ones who have this neeeeeeed that overrides anyone else’s rights or needs or desires.
There’s a toxic creep on Pharyngula arguing for the “right” to sexual contact at the moment. He shifts goals like mad when it’s pointed out that his “right” inevitably means removing someone else’s bodily autonomy and right NOT to have sex with him.
In The Gift of Fear, Gavin DeBecker states that people will commit violence if they feel it’s justified and if they perceive no alternatives. Rodgers certainly felt violence was justified, and didn’t seem to perceive any alternatives. Occam’s Razor really actually does work here.
I just had an image of petting a penis like one would a cat or dog.
It was kind of appealing, at least in the subset of “penis being attached to the right person”, which cancels out all the MRA/PUA/incel bonerwhiners.
Suuuure you don’t want to defend them. Then why are you?
If I have to suffer painful intrusion into my flesh from an unpleasant, insensitive knob, I’ll step on a Lego instead, thanks.
Throwing beverages at women who you haven’t even informed that you expect to sex you does seem like a significant step up in the idiotic male sexual entitlement stakes. If the asshole hadn’t gone and killed people afterwards I’d probably have laughed, because really, how fucking ridiculous is that? Wah, you didn’t notice me sitting there, waiting for you to sex me. I throw my overpriced latte at you like a baby having a tantrum.
cassandra: What is it about this blog in particular that people who get their asses handed to them verbally, or just aren’t very well liked, just can’t bring themselves to leave?
I think it’s because we really hand them their asses. I’ve seen it in a few other sites where there is real debate on disputes. At a guess it wounds thier pride because they can’t just brush it off as, “clowns are stupid”. They know they came off second best.
Where the fail is at seeing they came off second best because they were wrong. They are certain they are smart, and so they can “show us” and we will have to respect them.
Or (as in one notable case) the urge is to prove it by getting away with socking. Most aren’t clever enough to manage that, and so they end up with a greater need to prove themselves.
titianblue: So Racnad, is your nym a portmanteau of “racist” and “gonad” or is that just a coincidence?
It is an anagram for canard.
Comment of the day. XD
I like Racist Gonad better.
Absolutely. I was just reading a thread on Jezebel that is now hours old. It started as women discussing misogyny and entitlement with a focus on being harassed at clubs and bars. Lo and behold, it was only a matter of time before the thread was flooded with Nice Guys whining about women being afraid of them and insinuating that it’s our fault we get harassed because being an asshole works and gets men laid.
It’s fucking disgusting. These assholes can’t even let women talk about frightening experiences with misogyny in the wake of a misogynistic killing spree. The important thing is sad penis. There is literally no topic that can’t be turned into “what about teh menz!?” It was a whole thread full of Rancids. I’m surprised they haven’t found their way here yet.
I’m really getting tired of hearing about men not getting dates. I just really don’t care.
@Ally S – Oh, my goodness! That is awful!
In my experience, if a child is scared and upset about something, especially to the point of being pro-active about looking things up and warning others, that is a major red flag that something is wrong, and something has already happened.
Even if something hadn’t already happened, the way to handle it is most certainly not to trigger more fears, but to work with the child to analyze the fear, and see how best to handle it.
See “The Gift of Fear,” and “Protecting the Gift.” Your instinct was telling you something. Your elders should have helped you figure out what it was telling you, and helped you to act on it. Taking pro-active steps often helps to soothe fear, because you know you’re safer than you were before.
There’s always fear of the unavoidable, yet you can take steps to avoid the avoidable, and ease that fear.
Example: In the musical “Kismet,” a man’s servants are telling him not to go to Baghdad, because he is a wanted man.
“If it is my kismet to die in Baghdad, how can I avoid it?”
“By not going to Baghdad!”
I think your idea of looking up the registered offenders and warning the other kids was a great idea. It should have been encouraged, and not ridiculed. I mean, we have those registries for a reason, right? If you’re more at risk on Street A than on Street B, and they’ll both take you to your destination, then by all means, take Street B. If Street A is your only option, then at least you go in alert and aware, right?
Sometimes, it’s unavoidable, and the victim is NOT to blame. In fact, if it’s avoidable, the victim is still not to blame. The perpetrator is to blame. Full stop. Repeat: THE PERPETRATOR IS TO BLAME.
That said, it does feel better to take some pro-active steps to tip the scales in your favor.
The fact that your loved ones would tease you about this just makes me so confused, and I hurt for the poor, frightened, comfortless child you were then.
Well, that’s Jezebel alright. They like to link posts that make promising trollbait on Kotaku, Deadspin and so on, because Gawker Media is about as respectable an organization as TMZ.
@Kim – regarding more realistic TV and movies – I quite agree.
Entitled people are already expecting too much. These unrealistic depictions make even un-entitled people surprised when they are face-to-face with the reality of life.
“What? Nobody told me it would be like this!”
@Nick Kavenaugh
Welcome! Have a welcome package: http://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/
Same here. I don’t give a shit. Even aside from all the entitlement and whining and violence, the whole obsession with “a date” and “a girlfriend” pisses me off because it’s never about an individual someone likes. It’s still about women as a shop full of Barbie dolls, things there to be taken, not alive, not much difference between them, just trophies. It’s never about “I like X because she’s smart and says these things and is interesting and all that makes her really attractive to me”. It’s just “a date,” “a girlfriend,” generic. It’s the other side of the bullshit whining about what “type” of guy women allegedly like. They’re either too fucking stupid or too egotistical to acknowledge that an individual woman likes an individual man, and that the reason women they’ve tried to hit on don’t like them is because they are not attractive individuals. I don’t even mean that notion of instantly physically attractive; I mean they have repellent personalities.
Fuck ‘em all.
::cuddles up to husband::
@pecunium
Yep. That’s it.
And then they’re all, why do women find being regarded as interchangeable validation-and-sex-dispensing-units so offensive? Truly, sir, it is a mystery for the ages.
Yeah, why don’t you ladies just give it up? It’s not like you feel anything, why don’t you just open your legs and make men feel good? What’s the big deal about whether you let someone inside your body or not?
::hurl::
@kittehserf
Yeah. I read their screeds, and frankly, I’m glad I don’t fit their target range. I mean, I’m ooooooollllld (42), dried up (Maybe, maybe not. My fertility has not been tested, but for various health reasons, I’ve been told NOT to have children), fat, and “ugly” (in THEIR opinion. I have plenty of pretty features, and there are plenty of chubby chasers in the world who would actively desire someone just like me, because beauty is subjective and there is no timeless, universal standard of beauty). I have short hair that is brown and greying, and I don’t really give a hoot about fashion.
Plus, I haven’t shaved my legs in a year. I’m going to before I hit the pool this summer, but that’s it.
Gee, I feel so safe! (snark)
Seriously, though, at least I don’t have to worry about these MRA/PUAs trying their pick-up acts on me. Anyone who does approach me has already passed that basic hurdle. Young, tall, thin, blonde white girls have to sort it all out based on each individual man who approaches them. That’s a lot of work for them to do, and they’ll likely be hurt a lot in the process.
Yeah, looking back on the days of my youth, when the jerks tried to pick me up, and then were shocked, SHOCKED that I wasn’t an easy lay… I’m glad that’s over.
@pecunium
That is answer I understand and never thought of before. Most likely because I find the idea that more hate is all it takes scary and strange, I always thought hate was the top of the mountain in that emotional realm. Being willing to kill and it being nature are two different things. I think of it in terms of man eating lions. Loins are not prone to kill man naturally but once they learn how easy it is they take to it fast. I think it the same way for people.
True! I don’t know why I still read. There are no moderators so the comments sections are terrible but weirdly addictive. I’m the worst :(
Othering. They’re viewing women as the unknowable, alien Other – confusing, maddening yet unforgivably desirable. All the angst men put themselves through (for whatever reason) is ascribed to the perfidy of Woman.
I am reminded, once again, of something a good friend told me in college, that the only thing she envied about gay men was that we could get laid without dealing with straight men.
Michelle – high five from another too-old (50), not tall, thin, blonde (never been any of those except thin, briefly) invisible person!
Also unshaven legs. I will occasionally bother, like if I’m wearing my one pair of calf-length pants, but otherwise, there’s no reason to. I don’t find it comfortable, I don’t wear sheer stockings or short skirts, and I’m trying not to let the “women don’t have body hair” nonsense have a say, so there’s no reason to do it. Hair removal for me means those invisible but annoying little chin spikes, to be hunted down and pulled out with tweezers. :P
@kittehserf
Exactly!
I have come to the conclusion that I am 42 and never been kissed not because all the men in the world are blind fools, but because I have not met the individual who would mesh well with me, romantically.
See, I’ve liked individual guys, and individual guys have liked me. It’s simply never been mutual. Sometimes life is like that.
Knowing that some guys have liked me, even if I didn’t want those particular individuals, proves that I am likable, and even desirable. It’s just a question of mutual compatibility, shared standards, and complex chemistry.
And all those men who find other women attractive, instead? That’s absolutely fine. You’re allowed to like what you like. All I ask is that you stop pressuring men who like fat women to hide their preference, because YOU don’t like it. Guess what? If more men are actually ALLOWED to express their desire for fat women, rather than force themselves to date thin women they do not prefer, that actually means LESS COMPETITION FOR YOU! It’s really in your best interest to stop telling chubby chasers that they are pervs and deviants, and just accept that they have different standards of beauty.
I’ve read too many heart-wrenching stories of women whose boyfriends loved them, but did not have the courage to “come out” as a fat-appreciator, because they knew their friends and families would revile them and pressure them to give up their loves. All for the sake of appearing just the same as them.
But, see, I demand that kind of courage in a man. I won’t be the “back-door lover,” hiding in shame because I don’t fit the Hollywood beauty mold. If you don’t want me, and want to show me off to your family and friends, then I don’t want you.
And that’s why I’m still alone. And I’m OK with that.
@pecunium
That is answer I understand and never thought of before. Most likely because I find the idea that more hate is all it takes scary and strange, I always thought hate was the top of the mountain in that emotional realm. Being willing to kill and it being nature are two different things. I think of it in terms of man eating lions. Loins are not prone to kill man naturally but once they learn how easy it is they take to it fast. I think it the same way for people. does that make sense.
Second high five, Michelle!
I spent years in love with Mr K when I had no idea whether he was even still alive (I was agnostic-bordering-atheist then), or if he was, he knew I existed, or if he knew, cared. That was all there was to it: assuming he was alive and knew about me, there was nothing I could do about it. I don’t mean because he’s in Spirit, but because “knowing I existed” didn’t mean he had any feelings for me – why should he? I had no right to expect that, however strongly I felt about him (and I was hellish lonely for him during those twenty-plus years – take note, dudebros, for one particular person).
It was an amazing gift to learn that yes, he felt the same way about me and had been trying to let me know so long. But if he hadn’t? Horrible thought, but I would have to live with it, that’s all. He didn’t owe me anything.
If you really believe that, it’s because you haven’t even tried to find any alternatives. There are many many advice columnists who are quite happy to give advice to people who feel ignored by the people of their preferred gender. The trouble is that those people are not dispensing easy answers and magic fixes.
Captain awkward: it’s a long process forging good friendships in a new city. Put yourself out there and don’t lose heart if it takes a year before you see results.
PUAs: here is this one clever trick that they don’t want you to know about to be popular in just 7 days. You will have to lie and fake your personality but at least you’ll have people who pretend to like you.
PUAs are the the relationship equivalent of people selling get rich quick schemes and magic fat loss tricks.
@kittehserf
My unshaved legs started after the accident. It just hurt too much, so I took to wearing only pants. Same with the short hair. It hurt to maintain long hair, and so I cut it off.
Now, I like my unshaved legs, and being “natural.” Scare quotes. Hah! I am NATURAL. I even wear my hairy legs with capris.
Shucks, I might not even shave for the pool this year.
And it does irk me when so many men demand women shave their legs for them. Do they shave their legs for us? Do they make themselves smooth all over, for our sensual pleasure? No, they keep their hairy arms and legs and chests and all.
I’m not blaming them for their hair. I’m blaming them for being so darned demanding that we go completely against nature.
Particularly pubic hair. It serves an actual purpose. Two, in fact. One is to help protect against vaginal/urinary infection. And the other is to make sex better! Don’t deny me my better sex, just because you have fallen in with the NEW and MADE UP ideal of hairless women. I don’t like feeling like a pre-pubescent, and the idea of a man wanting that is a major turn-off for me. Plus, I have quite enough health issues, already, thanks. I do not need to add vaginal/urinary infections to the list.
I won’t even trim because I can’t physically deal with that kind of contortion required, and that’s OK, too. Because trimmed hair can be just as prickly and itchy as stubble.
Also, shaving is uncomfortable, leaves cuts, itchy skin, chafing and stubble, and ow.
Natural all the way. Some men prefer it. They’re rare, in this modern NorthWestern Culture, but they do exist. And just like a man with the courage to admit he likes his women large and in charge, that is the kind of man I like.
I guess you could say I’m using my body to purposely weed out the men I don’t want. Yeah, it limits my dating pool. But when I do find that match, it will be a real match, you know?
High five, right back atcha, kittehserf! And I’m so happy you did find your match!
I like Captain Awkward. Lots of wisdom there.
Dammit, I’m gonna do that too. It’s too silly to shave because of what strangers might think. It’s silly to think they’re even looking at my legs, let alone that their disapproval would be a given, or would matter, if they were.
QFT! I loathe, loathe, the whole shaven pubes business. Yes, some people like it, fine. The idea of expecting, let alone demanding, that someone else do it, or taking it as the norm – gah no, take that porny pedo crap away.
… In breaking news, Maddie is being BAD and having a hitty-hit-hit session with Fribs. Brat.
@Kim
And then they complain when the women leave them in a messy divorce. Helloooooo. You LIED. You sold them a false bill of goods, and when they find out the truth, how can you blame them for leaving?
In the musical play “Title of Show,” there is a song that says, “I’d rather be nine people’s favorite thing than a hundred people’s ninth favorite thing.” They tell the story of the girl going to the bake-off with her favorite dessert – rice crispies. Nine of the judges chose cakes for the winner, but the tenth judge chose her rice crispies.
You really only need ONE lover, if it’s the right one. And you’ll never get that right one by mis-representing yourself. It may take longer to find, but the optimist in me says it’s worth the wait, and so much sweeter for the waiting.
I just know the Blockquote Mammoth’s going to get me, with all these quotable comments, but YES, so much this (for us and other like-minded people, obviously).
I love having leg hair (and feeling it waft in the breeze!) but I do not like it as much as I like not getting harassed about my leg hair, so I usually shave or epilate in the summer when my lower legs might be exposed to the public eye. Or any time my family might see my legs; my mom and sister will go on and on about how disgusting I am for having furry legs, and my dad and brother, while they won’t say anything outright, will make a point of being “unable” to look at/near my legs.
My husband, on the other hand, knows full well that, while he prefers what he refers to as “smoothy-smooth” legs, he is allowed no comment on the matter except if he wants to compliment my legs for being shaved when I have shaved them of my own volition. Any requests for shaving will be met with an aggressive leg-hair-growing campaign, and nagging for him to get rid of that nasty hair around his nipples, and make sure he’s clean-shaven daily.
Except in the majority of cases quick fixes don’t even work. They might seem to be working – like miracle diets where you all but starve yourself – but it’s unsustainable in the long term and will just make things worse.
@kittehserf – If you’re just starting to go out in public with unshaven legs, I recommend starting out gradually.
Tips –
It’s summer, so take advantage of the sun. Put some diluted lemon juice on your legs (It is also fantastic for the skin!), and let it bleach the hairs. As they get longer, keep bleaching. They’ll be less noticeable, and you’ll feel less obvious. Rinse the lemon juice off, after a while, and you’ll find that it also gently exfoliates, as well as plumps the skin, encouraging collagen production. It can also bleach the skin, a little, evening out skin tone and discolorations.
The longer the leg-hair, the softer it will be, and you won’t feel all scratched from stubble, every time your legs touch. It can take some getting used to, though, especially in that shorter, “Velcro” stage. Just be patient, and that stage will pass.
Use a back-brush to exfoliate your legs, because you’ll miss that, when you give up shaving. Usually, the razor did a fine job of scraping off the dead skin. If the long hairs get a bit tangled, take a washcloth, and rub down from knee to ankle, in the shower, to rinse off your soap, and detangle as you go.
Use a good soap, but not too much. Your skin has important and useful bacteria, as well as natural oils, on it, so mostly you should just rinse off with warm (not hot) water, to maintain the natural balance. Use soap when you are actually physically dirty. Don’t use shampoo on your legs, because it will dry your skin. Your hair is not going to get so long you need to use Vidal Sassoon. You have waaay more skin than hair on your legs, so focus your care on that.
To build up your comfort level and confidence, start wearing your capris close to the house, for short errands, and when you have built up your comfort level, switch to shorts and/or longer errands in public.
Another trick to help you have confidence in hairy legs is to wear bright and colorful tops. It draws the eyes up, so people don’t even notice the legs. When you’re ready, wear some bright and colorful capris or shorts.
And remember the best way to get a bikini body is to put a bikini on your body, and a smile on your face.
Good luck!
@kittehserf – “Yes, some people like it, fine. ”
Yeah, if you want to shave for yourself, I’m all for that. You’re the one who has to live in your body, so do what works for YOU.
As for society? It’s really far too varied to try to please them all, so why should you submit to their demands? Especially because a deceptively large number of people actually don’t agree with the “conventional beauty” standards, but are too afraid to voice that disagreement.
Pleases the ones (individual) that you really want to please. Everyone else is irrelevant, especially when it comes to your own body. It’s YOURS.
dustydeste – geez, your family are assholes about leghair. How totally pathetic of them.
I’m loving “aggressive leg-hair-growing campaign”. I have visions of hair restorer or the hair equivalent of fertilizer, for that new, stronger crop! :P
I don’t know if Mr K even takes much notice of my leg hair. He’s certainly happy enough about all the other bits that are hairy staying that way. I’m glad he’s not a hairy-chested or hairy-backed guy (TMI time: he’s got less body hair than I used to imagine before we got together), but I wouldn’t be asking him to depilate if he were.
@kittehserf – Oh! I know what I want to make for my next sewing project. A stuffed Blockquote Mammoth toy!
Anyone here know how to make a pattern?
Michelle – thanks! But it’s okay, I’ve only rarely bothered shaving my legs, and that tends to be “gets done once and then forgotten about” in summer. :P My leg hair is quite dark and thick – genuine Clydesdale ankles and Hobbit toes, me – and when it’s there, it’s there, if that makes sense.
Short skirts or shorts aren’t a thing for me anyway, for several annoying reasons. I burn easily, so it’s better to be covered – being slathered in sunscreen feels gross. I get bad thigh chafing, so I need to wear leggings or bike shorts or smooth jeans to avoid that. I can’t go barefoot or in sandals, because I have orthotic insoles, so have to wear half-stockings at least, and supportive shoes. All in all a flowy covered look works best, plus I love long dresses and stuff anyway. It’s no coincidence that I have only one pair of capri-ish pants.
@dustydeste – Yeah, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I’m glad he gets it.
Your family – Wow. I’m so sorry. Hopefully that’s the worst you have to put up with.
Eeeeeee what a gorgeous idea! It could be the WHTM mascot!
I’m looking for patterns now but they all seem to be for knitted toys. Keep searching …
@Kim
Yeah, basically if they even make it as far as marriage, they’ve done an amazing job of it.
Knitting’s cool. Did you really find a pattern?
LOL, KIttehserf! I’m picturing leg-hair fertilizer, right now.
Oh, can you go to your doctor and ask if Rogaine is right for you?
Michelle, this one’s for an elephant, but with the right material, would it work for a mammoth?
LOL I’m imagining Revenge Rogaine, for regrowing hair in defiance of nitwits who want someone to shave.
Clydesdale ankles and Hobbit toes? That actually sounds nice, when you describe it like that.
But with all the issues, yeah, you probably don’t want to go out in the sun, without any support. That could be painful.
Ah, it’s fine about my family, really! I live on the other side of the continent from them now, and in a different country, so I rarely see them but on Skype these days. As long as I don’t mention my leg hair to them there, I’m pretty safe from them commenting on it, haha. Though my mom and sister will whine about me painting my nails to dark on occasion, or my nails being too long, but whatever, I can just turn them off, now. Ooops! Skype dropped the call! Oh no, internet problems! Too bad!
As far as leg exfoliation goes: I use a mix of coconut or olive oil infused with lemon peel, sugar, and lemon juice as an exfoliating scrub. I also use this on my face and arms, but I don’t know that I would recommend that (especially the face), unless you almost never have trouble with oily skin (I’ve literally never had a breakout in my life, just for perspective on how I slather my face in oil every few days and with no resulting problems).
Yeah, if I can get that printed to a bigger scale, and get some furry cloth, I could probably make it work. It’s worth a try, at least.
Then, I just have to rig up some sort of decorative saddle, with quotation marks on the sides.
Ooooh, if you knitted the elephant pattern with brown yarn, the kind that has longer hairs sticking off it! Aaah, it would be so cute and shaggy! <3
@dustedeste – Good for the Skype thing.
Your nails? Really?
That scrub sounds delightful. I’ll have to try that as a body-scrub.
For my face, I’ll wash it, and rinse it, and while the skin is still wet, I put on lemon juice, then I put on my favorite lotion and go to sleep. In the morning, I rinse with cool water and a washcloth, to give just enough exfoliation. I love the way it makes my skin feel!
I’ve tried lots of things, but that works for my own skin. YMMV
There are lots of knitted mammoths on the net, from what I just saw. So many toy mammoths of whatever sort are soooo cute!
Soft Toy Mammoth search result
My favourite
@dustedeste – Yes, brown eyelash yarn would look nice. However, my experience with that yarn is that I dare not make a mistake, because ripping it out is a pain in the neck, and sometimes impossible.
However, my experience with that yarn is also that it is absolutely delightful to pet and caress that fur.
Hmmm, now I’m torn.
@kittehserf – OMG! That’s perfect! Do you have a pattern for that? I love that picture.
I just realized it’s almost 11, and I have left my laundry in the machine for nearly twelve hours.
Guess it’s time to get off now.
But thanks for the uplifting conversation, people!
Whereas I find that sensation really odd, but like the feel of breeze on smooth legs. :) Even though I much prefer smooth legs and arms on myself, I am also lazy and shave rarely nowadays. No one has ever commented that I recall – even when I am in a bikini. (I have fairly unobtrusive body hair though, so maybe no one has actually noticed). Except my boyfriend who has made it clear that no matter what I do or don’t do to myself I would not be able to put him off. :)
NotBuddist and Rcnad’s unfailing concern for men exactly like themselves reminds how ironic it is that TeRPers, PUAs and the MRAs call women “solipsistic”. That rhetorical feat requires more projection than all the movie theaters in the world combined.
@David
Seriously, the first time anyone in the Manoshere suggests that women are as human as they are and/or expresses an ounce of sympathy for any women, please make a post commemorating the moment. I want to know exactly when I should die from shock.
Michelle, I don’t know if there’s a pattern or it’s a toy to buy, but I’ll have a dig round – catch you later, sleep well! :)
PS you can call me kittehs, if you like.
I could make a stuff mammoth toy pattern, but how to make it a blockquote mammoth?