Vox Day: “The concept of marital rape is not merely an oxymoron, it is an attack on the institution of marriage, on the concept of objective law, and indeed, on the core foundation of human civilization itself.”
Anti-rape protest in India
Apparently worried that the world might forget what a thoroughly reprehensible human being he is, fantasy author and freelance bigot Vox Day (Theodore Beale) has decided to bring up the issue of marital rape again – in order to assert, as he has many times in the past, that marital rape doesn’t actually exist.
In a post yesterday on his blog Vox Populi, Beale notes with obvious pleasure that an Indian judge recently ruled that marital sex, “even if forcible, is not rape,” thus upholding a section of the Indian Penal Code that refuses to acknowledge marital rape as rape.
Beale crows:
Some of my dimmer critics have attempted to make a meal out of my factual statement: a man cannot rape his wife. But that is not only a fact, it is the explicit law in the greater part of the world, just as it is part of the English Common Law. …
The fact that some of the lawless governments in the decadent, demographically dying West presently call some forms of sex between a husband and wife “rape” does not transform marital sex into rape any more than a law that declared all vaginal intercourse to be rape would make it so.
Unfortunately for Beale, simply declaring that the world is on his side on this one does not make it so. It not simply a handful of “ lawless governments in the decadent, demographically dying West” that see marital rape for what it is. The United Nations has recognized marital rape as a human rights violation for more than two decades. And the world is coming around to this point of view.
While (as of 2011) only 52 countries had laws specifically criminalizing marital rape, many others don’t have a “marital rape” exemption to their rape laws, meaning that in more than 100 countries marital rape can be prosecuted. And that number will inevitably grow.
Here’s a map from Wikipedia showing the countries (in red) in which marital rape is illegal. The countries in black allow marital rape. In the other countries, it’s a bit more complicated. (See here for the details.)
From Wikipedia.
But for now, at least, Beale is happy for another chance to explain the toxic “logic” behind his assertion that “marital rape” is impossible.
Anyone with a basic grasp of logic who thinks about the subject of “marital rape” for more than ten seconds will quickly realize that marriage grants consent on an ongoing basis. This has to be the case, otherwise every time one partner wakes the other up in an intimate manner or has sex with an inebriated spouse, rape has been committed.
Now, by Beale’s logic, a husband is entitled to force his wife to have sex over her screaming objections. Since “consent is ongoing,” in Beale’s version of marriage, a woman could say no or even fight back against her husband’s advances, but none of this would count as non-consent because once a woman is married there is no such thing.
But of course Beale doesn’t want to have to defend what is obviously – at least to anyone with any humanity – violent rape. So he tries instead to restrict the debate to the seemingly innocuous practice of “wake-up sex.” After all, what guy doesn’t want to be woken up with a blow job?
But even this example isn’t as persuasive as he thinks it is. Some people like to be woken up in an “intimate manner,” at least some of the time; some don’t, and you don’t get to override their desire not to be sexually manhandled in their sleep just because you’re married to them. And while drunk sex is not necessarily rape, marriage doesn’t give you the right to force sex on a partner who is intoxicated to the point of incapacity.
And for those who wish to argue that consent can be withdrawn, there is a word for withdrawing consent in a marriage. That word is “divorce”.
No, that word is “no.” There is no such thing as ongoing consent to sex. The fact that you are married to someone doesn’t give you the right to have sex with them whenever and wherever you want, whether they want to or not, any more than the fact that someone is a professional boxer gives you the right to punch them in the head any time you feel like it.
The concept of marital rape is not merely an oxymoron, it is an attack on the institution of marriage, on the concept of objective law, and indeed, on the core foundation of human civilization itself.
No, Mr. Beale, you having the right to do whatever you want to with your dick is not the basis of civilization itself. Civilization, in fact, is built in part on the repression of some of our darkest desires. Part of growing up is reconciling ourselves to the sad fact that we can’t just do whatever the hell we want to all the time; Freud described this as putting behind the “pleasure principle” of infancy and early childhood for the “reality principle” that governs the more mature mind.
Beale seems to be driven not only by a desire for instant sexual gratification, whenever and wherever he wants, but also by a certain degree of sexual insecurity. In a previous post on the subject, he wrote:
If a woman believes in the concept of marital rape, absolutely do not marry her! It would make no sense whatsoever to marry a woman who believes that being married to her grants her husband no more sexual privilege than the next unemployed musician who happens to catch her eye.
Beale seems to think that if married women are allowed to say no to their husbands, they’ll desert these poor beta schlubs en masse in favor of scruffy alphas with guitars. At the root of all his arguments against the idea of marital rape is an obvious terror of unrestricted female choice.
In a way Beale’s petulant, self-serving defenses of marital rape serve a positive function, in that they help to remind us how abhorrent the practice is and how nonsensical the “arguments” in favor of allowing it really are.
Every time he opens his mouth on the subject, he helps to strengthen the growing consensus against marital rape.
Posted on May 15, 2014, in alpha males, antifeminism, boner rage, doubling down, empathy deficit, entitled babies, evil sexy ladies, evil wives, marital rape, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, patriarchy, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reactionary bullshit, red pill, vox day and tagged anti-feminism, antifeminism, india, marital rape, misogyny, rape culture, rape jokes, vox day. Bookmark the permalink. 526 Comments.
and yours pre-presumes that it didn’t happen and the woman is trying to get her husband in trouble
Except, you blockhead, as has already been pointed out, the majority of rapes are perpetrated by, not a stranger, but someone known to the victim. Therefore, on the basis of actual facts, rather than the ones you’re pulling out of your ass, the latter is more likely than the former, and ought to be treated as such.
Whether what ought to be and what is match up is another story, one sadly influenced by the ideas and assumptions of assholes like yourself.
…there’s just so many grey areas, so many blurred lines, right?
Fuck off.
@gary
answer my question: why do you think it should be even harder for a man to go to jail for raping his wife? Don’ talk around it. answer it
So we’re playing the ‘strong men can’t get raped by people smaller than them’ card. Because they can. Even if you’re going ‘well he should have been able to fight her off’ it’s rape if he didn’t consent. Lack of physical resistance never means it wasn’t rape. Fuck off.
Which doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. The woman who got raped by her husband should also get serious attention. you can’t just go ‘thing happens, therefore it must be good.’
@gary
Newsflash: rape isn’t nuanced. Saying it’s more complicated doesn’t make you smarter, or more deep, or more understanding of human nature, it just makes you an asshole.
You’re contradicting yourself. You’re putting up that disclaimer because people thing (with reason) you are a rape apologist.
You cannot say that rape should be prosecuted, and then simultaneously argue for making that prosecution more difficult and therefore more unlikely. It makes one believe that you don’t really *mean* that first part.
*think not thing.
^all of this.
Well, yes. I’m assuming the number of times I’ve had sex must be in four figures by now, and – hand on heart – I can’t think of a single case where my partner wasn’t obviously consenting.
And by “obviously” I don’t necessarily mean verbal consent, never mind written – it really, really isn’t hard to tell if you actually care about what your partner feels about the whole situation.
this is completely off topic it’s just a post to see if i can post under ‘fade’ again instead of greendaywantsavatars
Realized that my last comment could be construed as saying stranger rape shouldn’t be taken seriously. That was not my intention; my intention was to point out that Gary’s justification for erasing marital rape and making it harder to prosecute is complete and utter bullshit.
I mean, here’s an interesting statistic: how many rapes get prosecuted? How many rapists do time?
Can we do better than 3%?
So, yeah, excuse you and your ‘maybe we need a higher standard of proof.’
I had encountered the “marital rape isn’t a real thing” wackos before and their thing was, as noted in a prior comment, this assumption that marriage somehow confers a “it is likely this couple would consent to sex together” aura (unlike apparently any other set of people evar) that should make rape unbelievable (gross) AND that obviously if the couple liked each other enough to get married and live together and consent to sex sometimes then it was impossible that one of them is a rapist. Ie, it is un-possible for someone to
A: get married under pressured circumstances
or
B: get married and their partner changes their behavior
I remember having a long “what, you don’t think essentially arranged marriages still happen?” conversation with an MRA that actually seemed to change them from a ‘there is no such thing as marital rape’ stance, but ONLY in appealing to xenophobia. They don’t believe that ‘uppity western women’ might possibly, in some universe, experience something resembling rape – because they’re all just making it up, right? No way that someone who is abusive is going to possibly also be charming and convince anyone, including their victim, they’re a great guy. nope nope, would never happen.
Marriage = consent is a backwards argument completely devoid of logic. The entire things falls flat immediately when you take negotiating matters into consideration.
If your partner makes it clear that they do or don’t approve of such, then act accordingly. PROBLEM SOLVED OMG GENIUS ! :O
Hi again, Gary! I did make it clear that we know that you’re a potential danger to women already, right? Feel free to keep proving it if you want, just thought I might save you some effort.
Oh, you mean uncomfortable truths like the fact that you’re trying to convince everyone that there are some circumstances in which we should usually assume that a woman who says she’s been raped is lying, and the even more uncomfortable truth that your taking this position allows us to infer certain not very flattering things about you? Yeah, I can see how that would make you uncomfortable. Shame that it’s still true, huh?
Brain bleach:
One logical problem with marriage = consent that ought to make sense even to logic-bots is that, if marriage is consent to everything always, then if there was a sex act you didn’t want to do, you would never be able to get married. For instance, if you’re not into anal, you couldn’t marry, because marrying would give your spouse the right to do anal even if you don’t want to.
Personally, I would have thought if you loved someone you would respect their consent, but I only have ladybrainz and can’t manlogic like VD.
Rape is rape. There is no nuance. It’s not complicated. If there isn’t consent, it is rape.
Stupid neckbeard is stupid.
Ally: SCOTTISH FOLD!
Is not even a thing. It’s not nonviolent just because you used your dick instead of your hands.
To you, a large man being raped by a small woman is so absurd that you assume, and expect us to assume, that it didn’t happen. Otherwise your point makes no sense. But see, if a large man was indeed raped by a small young woman, the police would be wrong to dismiss his claims, and so would you.
Thanks for mansplaining to us what women have been pointing out for decades.
BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE VOX DAY. Because of the belief that women consent to all sex when they agree to marriage. This is a problem.
The battle cry of the perpetual rape doubter. I wonder how often you believe people who say they were raped.
The reason you keep having to say this is that the rest of what you’re saying contradicts it. In case you were wondering.
@katz
I know, right? Just watching that video brightened my day. It’s my favorite brain bleach video of all time.
Further evidence that the manospherians only pretend to care about male rape victims. From the stories I’ve heard men who have been raped tell, a great deal of them were raped when they were incapacitated due to alcohol or drugs. A small woman isn’t likely overpower and rape a large man, but a small woman absolutely could rape a large man who is too intoxicated to consent.
It is also unfortunately common for severely disabled people to be raped by those who are supposed to be their caregivers and some of those victims are large men.
I have a gif gift for you Gary
I have brain bleach too.
My sister’s two cats cuddling: http://i.imgur.com/SpQChgK.jpg
Hey Gary!
Thanks for mansplaining rape to us. We women sure were wearing some rose colored glasses until you came along to set us straight about how we’re a bunch of vindictive liars and what “legitimate” ….I’m sorry “believable” rape is.
I know several women who have been raped repeatedly by their ex husbands/boyfriends. I guess I should explain to them that they’re probably just making that up.
Thanks also for saying that as a married woman, I pretty much set myself up to be disbelieved if the man I married should decide to rape me. Women should definitely stay the hell away from men and never marry them. It’s just too dangerous. I know that now.
Just kidding. Fuck you.
I also really hate the assumption that marriage and sex necessarily are always going to go hand in hand. I’m asexual, and though I’m not sex-repulsed I know quite a few asexual people who are, but who also have romantic orientations and would get married but would not want to be having sex at all (some unfortunately do have sex because even though they aren’t interested their spouse/SO is and some have said that their SO has made them feel bad for not liking sex which really makes me angry).
But let’s just pretend everyone has sex and if you are getting married that means you are going to have sex with your spouse always.
Also the fact that marital rape wasn’t made illegal in the US until the year I was fucking BORN is horrifying. Marital rape laws have only been around in the country I live in as long as I have. That’s just so fucking disgusting to me. 21 years is not nearly long enough. Forever wouldn’t have been nearly long enough. Ugh.
I wish the absolute worst for Vox – I wish he realizes how fucked up the things he does and believes are and is forced to live with the guilt of what he’s done for the rest of his life (well, that’s a nice version of what I wish for him – I have a special hate in my heart for people like Vox).
To clarify, I don’t mean something like “I hope he gets an eye for an eye” because I firmly believe that no one, not even rapists, deserve to be sexually assaulted.
And that’s not all. People with disabilities (severe or otherwise) are roughly twice as likely to be raped or sexually assaulted: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/capd0912st.pdf
LOGIC. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
@Ally
D’aww. Those cats are adorable. (and one of them kinda looks like my guinea pig. :P)
@Howard Bannister
Russia is not pushing an anti- gay agenda. it as an anti-gay agenda. yes we in the USA have a problem but we not arresting people for talk about gay rights. Also Those in power be they a majority or minority dictate thing. there are many pro-gay Russian but they are not in power so for all intent and purpose they don’t matter by and large.
@Marie
I’m sorry your uncomfortable with my thoughts but I’ll use they words I want. I know everything has shades of gray but at some point the slack runs out and for Russia in my view that time is now,
So…not really sorry then.
@ken L
and I’ll be majorly suspicious of you for your choice of words. Deal with it.
Aaaannndd we still have a problem. That you cannot brush under the rug. And you cannot lord over other people for having the same problem, but more so. Because the amount of USian’s I’ve seen ignore queerphobia in the US and act like it’s such a problem in other places piss. me. the fuck. off.
@katz
no, I don’t like to make people uncomfortable but I’m not going to lie about what I think.
i know honesty is a rare think in our world especially the on-line world but I try.
@marie
I know it piss me off too but the idea it all equal is wrong. I would bet you a cake (sorry I poor but i can get eggs,sugar, and flour.) gay people would much rather be gay in the state then Russia. of course they be better off in Canada but…
i am actually a polar bear.
/honesty is a rare thing in this world especially on line but i try
Dude, stop trying to make “I say whatever pops into my head” into a virtue.
Did anybody else notice that the countries that, according to David’s map, allow marital rape, are mostly countries that Beale the pretentious numbskull would call “uncivilized”?
@ken L
Nice try. Other people are honest, too, they just manage to avoid looking like douchenozzles by not being actual douchenozzles. Because not everyone is secretly a douchenozzle and lying about it. FFS
Hi, I am gay! I’d much rather be gay in the US than in Russia. Because I live in the US. And would much rather laws change than ‘every fucking gay person changes their residence’. Same reason I’d rather be gay in America than gay in Canada. because I fucking live in America and that’s where my family and friends are.
I’m not trying to say things are equal. Just that your ‘backwards’ comment is uncalled for, and also you’re a shit.
Goodbye, don’t bother coming back :3
@katz
Hey, sometimes I say whatever’s on my head, too, but it’s usually “fade, want me to tell you some important thoughts on cake borders? Of course you don’t, but I will anyway!*” not ‘lol russia is so backwards.
*ok, I do shut up if she asks me to, but I also blurt out what’s on my mind all the time. Rambles.
@marie
stunned by the way this went. i neither insulted you or said anything against your view. I honestly feel bad that you were uncomfortable. I mean i sorry i don’t lay out my every little thought on here. I am offended by want Russia is doing and by what the USA does too. and because i did not say it in way you like or the way you want me to or think I should you unleash a bunch crap on.
@maire
I a bad baker so when you do get the time maybe you could unleash that thought so i could get a few tips.
@Ken L
You really weren’t showing you cared much at all about what the US was doing. It was also kind of a derail from the actual post, which was about marital rape.
sorry i’ll try to be more on point in the future. it just struck me where Russia was on the issue.I don’t comment alot online so I tended to forget people don’t know me already and don’t know my view, it goes with my being much better at talking then writing.
Gary, please leave this planet, and never go near a female of any species ever again. If you don’t believe in marital rape, then you were lucky enough not to have to listen to it happening through your bedroom wall for most of your childhood.
I should have listened to my trigger warning and not read all this repulsive rape-apologist vomit. I think I need a shower now.
@winter walker
Sorry you were triggered :( Jedi hugs from me, if you want them.
I’ve always wanted to try Pegging. My husband has absolutely denied me access. No, no, and no. But I want it, so according to Vox….
I’m glad that VD made sure to throw in that “demographically dying” bit, just in case anyone forgot that he’s a virulent racist too.
As for the whole thing with his supposed wife, it always amazes me how credulous the PUA crowd is of the people they look to to teach them how to lie to women.
Do you follow his twitter feed? Check out this gem:
Just when I thought VD couldn’t get more disgusting, he did. I really have my doubts that 1/4 orgasm while raped, but it doesn’t matter anyway. An involuntary bodily response does not equal consent. What a fucking monster.
Sarah: Yuck yuck yuck!
Actually, one of the main reason marital rape was legal in so many states for so long (each state has its own laws in the US) was that, to quote a South Carolina state senator arguing against the law:
“Every man has the god given right to obtain sex from his wife whenever he wants.”
Confusion about what constitutes rape had little to do with it.
Orgasm is not consent nor does it mean that the act of rape is not violent.
It’s a body’s response to stimuli, like a sneeze.
That is an utterly disgusting thing to use as a way to normalize rape as “sex”.
Meanwhile, the assholes have descended here: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/15/columbia-univ-students-distribute-rapist-list-after-after-school-fails-to-protect-victims/
I know, right? I mean, I only read him at all because I think that “know thy enemy” is very good advice, but sometimes it does feel like self-hatred.
A man a describes sex in terms of “obtainment”, but obviously objectification don’t real.
Putting aside the fact that rape isn’t actually sex, one can still easily argue that rape is – you guessed it – sexual violence. In the sense that it is simply violence done through a sexual means.
I hope Vox Day accidentally takes a swig of bong water (should he have a bong). What a disingenuous piece of shit.
@winter walker, @amandajane5 and anyone else who wants brain bleach here is some to add to the pile.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rM_06o9JRYE
(For the non-Aussies, quokkas are the size of rabbits and live on an island off the coast of Western Australia)
Also, hugs to anyone who wants them.
Thanks for the brain bleach!
Thank you for the hugs and brain bleach! Those quokkas are bloody adorable!
OP:
If he were motivated by instant sexual gratification, he could simply take up masturbation. But he’s not motivated by sexual gratification: he’s motivated by power. Framing it as a sexual motivation is a way to try to make it look legitimate.
This post I found
Exhibit B:
@weirwoodtreehugger
@Ally S
And that’s not because they’re sexier or more sexually gratifying than able-bodied people, but because they’re easier to exert power over.
These assholes really don’t understand the simple concept of consent, do they?
Tyrion Lannister understands consent way better than Vox or Gary.
I swear, if Tyrion dies I might stop watching.
@HyenaGirl: So by his “basic grasp of logic” if his spouse was to surprise him with a pair of handcuffs and a large strap-on she’d be entirely within her rights?*
Based on his previous comments, he’d take great pride in beating his spouse to a pulp for trying.
So true.
@Fade: i am actually a polar bear.
How are you able to type perched on that single small goddamned iceberg all polar bears appear to be on these days?
Hey, at least now we know who specifically Vox feels sexually threatened by.
@fromafar2013: I swear, if Tyrion dies I might stop watching.
Valar morghulis applies to Lannisters too, as will shortly become clear if teh TV series follows the books…
Accidental bong-water-drinking isn’t enough. He needs to lick a cactus as well.
Someone’s gonna have to tell me how to use the quote feature on here.
@Ally S
Thanks for that welcome package. Absolutely hilarious. I had been wondering for a while what the scented candle thing was… just… lol.
@David Futrelle
AVFM supports Save Indian Family? How surprising. I find it especially grating that they continue to use the term “MHRA.”
Oh never mind, didn’t notice the quotes thing is explained on that welcome package.