No, Amy Schumer did not give a speech celebrating how she raped a guy

Any Schumer, not giving a speech

Amy Schumer, not celebrating rape.

Thought Catalog – which seems to be rapidly becoming the go-to site for terrible antifeminist posts – is making a bit of a stir on Reddit with a post bearing the deliberately provocative title “Wait A Second, Did Amy Schumer Rape a Guy?” Spoiler Alert: The anonymous author concludes that yes, she did. The anonymous author is full of shit.

In the Thought Catalog piece, Anonymous takes a look at a speech that Schumer – a comedian with some subversive feminist leanings — recently gave at the Gloria Awards and Gala, hosted by the Ms. Foundation for Women. The centerpiece of Schumer’s speech, a bittersweet celebration of confidence regained, was a long and cringeworthy story about a regrettable sexual encounter she had in her Freshman year of college, when her self-esteem was at an all-time low.

The short version of the story: A guy named Matt, whom Schumer had a giant crush on, called her at 8 AM for a booty call, after he apparently had been turned down by every other woman in his little black book. Amy, thinking she was being invited for an all-day-date, only discovered his real intent when she got to his dorm room and he romantically drunkenly pushed her onto the bed and started fingering her.

After several failed attempts at intercourse, and what she describes as an “ambitious” attempt to go down on her, he finally gave up and fell asleep on top of her. Lying there listening to Sam Cooke, she decided she didn’t want to be “this girl” any more, “waited until the last perfect note floated out, and escaped from under him and out the door.”

Looking back on the incident, she thanks her failed lover for introducing her “to my new self, a girl who got her value from within her.”

But Thought Catalog’s anonymous author, noting the extreme drunkenness of Schumer’s stumbling lover, concludes that “Amy’s actions may have constituted as rape in the eyes of her college, Towson University.” (Or at least according to the school’s current policies.)

Anonymous quotes Towson’s current policy on sexual harassment, which states:

In order to give effective Consent, one must not be mentally or physical incapacitated (e.g., by alcohol or drugs, unconsciousness, mental disability).

And adds:

It’s hard to argue that Matt was not mentally incapacitated. In Amy’s words, he was “wasted.” 

Actually, the fact that Matt wasn’t too intoxicated to initiate an assortment of sexual acts with her — or to get up and change the music at her request — suggests that he wasn’t “mentally incapacitated,” at least by the standards used by colleges when investigating alleged sexual assaults. The Association of Title IX Administrators’ Gender-Based and Sexual Misconduct Model Policy (which sets an unofficial standard for college administrators) defines incapacitation as “a state where someone cannot make rational, reasonable decisions because they lack the capacity to give knowing consent (e.g., to understand the ‘who, what, when, where, why or how’ of their sexual interaction).”

In any case, it’s not clear why Anonymous is looking at Towson’s sexual harassment policy, which is designed to deal with “non-consensual Sexual Contact, Sexual Exploitation, or requests for sexual favors that affect educational or employment decisions,” and which clearly doesn’t apply to Schumer’s story.

As for sexual assault, the school’s official web site states:

Sexual assault is defined by Towson University as forcible sexual intercourse, sexual penetration–however slight–of another person’s genital or anal opening with any object, sodomy, or any unwanted touching of an unwilling person’s intimate parts or forcing an unwilling person to touch another’s intimate parts. Under this definition, these acts must be committed either by force, threat, intimidation, or through the use of the victim’s mental or physical helplessness, of which the accuser was or should have been aware. This includes, but is not limited to, victim helplessness resulting from intoxication or from the taking of a so-called “date-rape drug.”

This definition is drawn from the University of Maryland System Policy on Sexual Assault, which classifies sexual assault involving penetration — the traditional definition of rape — as a more serious type of sexual assault (Sexual Assault I) than those forms of sexual assault involving touching (Sexual Assault II). By this standard, assuming we equate Sexual Assault I with rape, Schumer clearly did not rape him.

Anonymous then looks at Maryland’s state laws and concludes:

In the eyes of Maryland state law, things get a bit more complicated. Amy could be guilty of rape or sexual assault depending on whether or not penetration was achieved. According to the state law, a person may not engage in vaginal intercourse with another “if the victim is a mentally defective individual, a mentally incapacitated individual, or a physically helpless individual, and the person performing the act knows or reasonably should know that the victim is a mentally defective individual, a mentally incapacitated individual, or a physically helpless individual.” Legally, it’s hard to argue that it wasn’t rape, at least given the details in Amy’s speech.

Well, actually, yes it is. And not just legally, but by any reasonable definition of the word “rape.”

Because Schumer, at least by her account, wasn’t “the person performing the act.” He was. She was lying there wondering what had gone wrong with her life.

If you read the speech in its entirety, instead of depending on the selective quotations in the Thought Catalog post, this is abundantly clear. As she describes it, he:

Pushes her down on the bed; as she writes, he does “that sexy maneuver where the guy pushes you on the bed, you know, like, ‘I’m taking the wheel on this one. Now I’m going to blow your mind. …’”

Penetrates her with his fingers; as she writes, “[h]is fingers poked inside me like they had lost their keys in there.”

Tries to have intercourse, though his penis is only half-willing; she describes him as “pushing aggressively into my thigh, and during this failed penetration, I looked around the room to try and distract myself or God willing, disassociate.” Even using the “made to penetrate” standard, she’s not raping him, because she’s not making him do anything; he’s the active one.

Goes down on her.

Attempts intercourse again; this time, “[o]n his fourth thrust, he gave up and fell asleep on my breast.”

At no point in Schumer’s story does she describe herself as initiating anything. Indeed, she spends much of the time thinking to herself how much she wants to leave.

He started to go down on me. That’s ambitious, I think. Is it still considered getting head if the guy falls asleep every three seconds and moves his tongue like an elderly person eating their last oatmeal? … Is it? Yes? It is. I want to scream for myself, “Get out of here, Amy. You are beautiful, you are smart, and worth more than this. This is not where you stay.”

If a woman initiates sex with a man who is too drunk to consent, that’s rape. But a woman lying motionless trying to dissociate while a man tries to penetrate her is not a rapist. Even if he is drunk.

And that’s the case no matter how you switch the genders up.

Of course that’s not how they see things on Reddit, where most of those who’ve commented on the story have been quick to agree with the Thought Catalog author that Schumer raped her partner. Ironically, it’s been those outside the Men’s Rights subreddit who have been the most outspoken on this point. In TwoXChromosomes, a subreddit ostensibly devoted to women but in fact overrun with MRAs and other antifeminists, someone calling herself Shield_Maiden831 has gotten more than 200 net upvotes for a comment concluding that “[i]f you really believe in equality, then it seems to be a clear cut case from her own admission.”

Not everyone agrees. Elsewhere in TwoX , one commenter by the name of critropolitan argues, I think quite cogently, that

Unless the full transcript reveals something that the quotes in the article don’t, it doesn’t seem like Schumer exploited this guys mental state to do something to him that violated his will.

He was the one who called her.

He was the one who acted every step of the way and she went along with it.

Assuming that a person who is drunk is, automatically, in virtue of being drunk, without agency, is a mistake. It is moreover a mistake only made with regard to sex – no one thinks the same with regard to bar fights or the choice to drive. Drunken sex might not be the platonic ideal of sex, but it is not automatically rape in every case regardless of the actual state of minds, wishes, and feelings of the participants. …

There is no suggestion that Amy engaged in any sexual contact with this guy while he was passed out, or that she did something he didn’t want to do but he simply lacked the capacity to effectively resist or communicate non consent. Instead he was drunk enough to show significant signs of drunkeness, but not so drunk that he couldn’t not only communicate effectively but take a sexual initiative.

Rapists can exploit the vulnerability of drunk people, but we must walk back from the bizarre and agency-denying position that all drunk sex is rape. Rape is far too serious a matter for this bullshit.

It is.

But of course the MRAs and antifeminists on Reddit now accusing Schumer of rape aren’t interested in taking rape seriously. Indeed, if we look back on how they regularly talk about rape and issues of consent, it’s clearly they’re interested in taking rape less seriously. Their main interest in this case is as a supposed “gotcha” of a prominent female comedian with feminist leanings. In the process they are slandering her, and trivializing the real issue of rape.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon, Time.com, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on May 7, 2014, in a new woman to hate, a woman is always to blame, antifeminism, antifeminist women, evil sexy ladies, false accusations, FemRAs, gender swap, hundreds of upvotes, imaginary backwards land, misogyny, MRA, rape, rape culture, red pill women, reddit and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 617 Comments.

  1. You people keep telling me that words mean things. Schumer did not say “He failed to penetrate me” she said it was a “failed penetration” these words mean different things. The first says there was no penetration the second describes a penetration as failed. The failure may be for other reasons than there was no penetration. In this case it may have been described as failed because his penis was flacid.

    In the context of digital penetration which is acknowledged it seems a big leap to describe something that did not include penile penetration as sex in contrast to that digital penetration.

    Think I will wait until I get an opportunity to establish the facts with Schumer. Not holding my breath.

  2. Hmm. Troll sealioned the thread, all angry that we aren’t debating the way he wants. Yet he ignores my repeated question.

    Once more troll, where are those cases you said you were going to find?

  3. Are you suggesting that someone who is inebriated cannot rape a sober person? Yes or no.

  4. Troll seems confused as to whether anything resembling PiV happened. It seems to have been reduced to “drunk man digitally penetrated Shumer then tried to use his penis, unsuccessfully”. You’re not making any case for her having raped him. The acts, and attempted acts, were all his.

    What say you, Mammotheers? Time to request this boring, boring troll get his arse kicked by the Dark Lord?

  5. No exception there for Amy Schumer. Like everyone else she cannot have sex with a drunk guy and claim afterwards he consented. Or worse the people here can’t claim afterwards that he consented.

    You keep forgetting, trollio, that Drunk Dude came on to HER, not the other way around. She didn’t consent to HIS drunken advances. Why is this so hard for you to understand and accept? Do you have a problem with basic reading comprehension?

  6. Zie is really, really repetitive and circular and boring, I vote banning. Shut up, Woody.

  7. Please do, kittehserf. I’ve had all I can stand tonight, and I don’t think there’s any good liquor in the house.

    He still never acknowledged that incapacitated and impaired are two different words, now that I recall.

  8. What say you, Mammotheers? Time to request this boring, boring troll get his arse kicked by the Dark Lord?

    Aye. Troll argues that we can’t logic, when he can’t read or comprehend. Not worth keeping around for the amusement value, as this shit has gotten old. Plus, how many others have we had who all claim that they came here for legitimate debate and are soooooo disappointed when all they get is mocked, as per the header? Boooooooring.

  9. thebewilderness

    There is no point to keeping a troll who thinks baseless speculation is logic, and women who don’t stop drunk men from trying to penetrate them are raping the drunk.

  10. Right! I’ll drop a word to the Dark Lord – can you worthy folks do the same, please? More the better.

  11. I’m not sure why trolls think formal logic is going to earn them any points. I was never taught formal logic, but I’m a PhD student and can recognize when someone is talking out their ass.

  12. @cupisnique

    “I’m not a proctologist, but I know an asshole when I see one.”

  13. Sent a email with a request to either troll challenge mod the sealion, or full out ban.

    Recommended troll challenge is to

    a) find that case for WWTH
    b) write 10 posts on current threads relating to the current thread topics that include (at the end) a solution to a logical proof. I also sent some recommended problems.

    Or just a ban.

  14. Sorry, I get a little grumpy when trolls go all “LOOK AT MY MIGHTY LOGIC! I’M TOTES TRAINED IN FORMAL LOGIC!” when their “logical arguments” boil down to:

    A = B because I said so, thus B = A. Also, A = B. Also, also, B = A. Why are you disagreeing with me?

  15. No need to apologise, contrapangloss!

    Trolls also seem to think their (totally unsupported) claims to have studied Manly Menz Forml Logicks bypass any need for common sense, ability to read for comprehension, empathy, and last but not least, real-world experience.

  16. Yeah, I can’t rebuff their “logic” in a formal way, but I tend to assume if their logic were actually sound it would make sense ya know? lol

    Everything he/she wrote was purposefully twisted up to suit whatever argument they wanted to make. That’s not really how logic should be used lol. They seem to follow the thinking that if you can just confuse your opponents in a debate then you’ve proven your intellectual superiority and no one will be able to call you out on it. If they do, just throw more bogus jargon at them that sounds intellectual, don’t address any of their actual points, and continue arguing with strawmen, all while claiming that’s what they are doing to you. It’s fool proof I tell you!

  17. And also, the man in question was aggressively pursuing sexual activity. Round these parts, that is called “affirmative conset,” and is held up as, like, the holy grail for clearing up blurry boundaries as far as consent goes.

    I got pretty tipsy on New Years. Not like falling over or puking or anything, but I was a giggly grope-monster and quite cheerfully marched Mr. Farts into the bedroom for some sexytimes. That wasn’t rape. (I don’t remember a lot of it, but I’m told it was a lovely way to ring in the new year.) If I’d passed out and he’d been attempting the same thing, that would have been rape.

    If you are participating, of your own free will, trying your darnedest to get that willy in there, you weren’t raped.

    There is, however, the possibility of next morning regrets, so if you aren’t sure if your partner would consider doing this with you sober, it’s usually worth taking a raincheck. Better safe than sorry, especially if you want that person to be a non-awkward part of your life.

    That said – if you’re the one giving the person those drinks…unless you have a longstanding relationship tha includes boozy sexyfuntimes, do not go for the sexies. Even if they’re into it. That’s getting into predator territory.

  18. If you pursue, initiate sex with a passive individual and proceed to perform sex acts on them while drunk you’re not being raped.

    Drunk and having sex =/= rape.

  19. @wjburrows:

    You people keep telling me that words mean things. Schumer did not say “He failed to penetrate me” she said it was a “failed penetration” these words mean different things.

    Not necessarily. It’s ambiguous. The only difference between the two statements is that the second is in the passive voice. But really, it doesn’t matter what those words mean. You seem obsessed with proving that there was penetration, because (you think) if there was penetration, and Schumer was the sober party, then she must have been the rapist.

    Ever wonder why when a drunk driver hits someone, they are at fault, whereas if someone drunk gets raped, the rapist is at fault? The way I worded it should make it completely obvious; the actor is the one at fault. It doesn’t matter if they are drunk or sober. The only reason inebreation matters with rape is that it counts as an incapacitated mental state that invalidates consent. The actor, drunk or sober, is still responsible for the action.

    If events played out as Schumer described it, she was the one that was clearly acted upon. Therefore, she didn’t rape anyone.

    Hot damn, how did I miss a troll that apparently has been here since last year? (*badum tish*)

  20. OT non-troll stuff: I have now 400 pics on imgur! I haz a happy.

  21. Kirbywarp, that comparison highlighting the difference in responsibility between drunk driving and drunk person who is raped is brilliant. I’m sure wjburrow will still manage to misunderstand it, but it helped streamline the situation in my head and I LOVE streamlined nuggets of wisdom. They are so much easier to stash for my mind to stash away for later conversations, like a sort of brain squirrel.

    I do like contrapangloss’ challenge for him, though. I just want to put my vote in for that particular troll challenge since I find it satisfying. I’m still annoyed that the guy never found even a single case supporting his claim that sexually aggressive drunk women get innocent impassive men charged with rape all the time. And he’s had HOURS, too. He should just admit that he was wrong about that assumption already. That…or pony up the case that supports his statement. One or the other.

  22. Holy cow, 400 is an ambitious and exciting landmark! This calls for confetti. And one hundred lit scented candles for…party lighting?

    Could we make a disco ball out of scented candles?

  23. Well this was gross… (sorry for brining up an old comment)

    Luzbelitx: Schumer makes no comment that suggests she did not consent. If she did it would be a different story. If she did not consent then I think it is very likely should would mention that fact. So I think we can suppose that she did consent until Schumer makes a credible statement to the contrary.

    Trolly here thinks Schumer made no comment that even suggests she did not consent. Apparently describing, in detail, efforts she made to dissociate from the situation aren’t very suggestive that she didn’t want to be there.

    Aaanyway.

    @kittehserf

    Nice job with 400 pics!

    @lordpabu:

    Thanks. I’m definitely not the first to use it, even on this forum, but thanks all the same. It’s actually absurdly straightforward, and MRAs make such a hash out of it, no doubt purposefully many times.

    On another note, it’s kind of sad that the troll challange has to be “back up your shit.” If that’s what it takes, I guess… I sorta do want them to come back though, if only so I can have some fun batting them around.

  24. In cases that I am aware of often the general consensus is that the male has some level of responsibility that the female does not have especially in heterosexual sexual encounters.

    The reason for this is because the societal expectation of sex is for the man to be taking the actions and do the work and for the woman to lie back and think of england. It’s a dumbass way to approach sex, but a fair amount of people subscribe to it.

    And in order to be a rapist, one must actively seek to violate the bodily integrity of someone who has not given consent. Therefore, it is more likely that a man will be the one taking the actions and thus be the one responsible for those actions. Capiche?

  25. wj, this is not a productive discussion. Move on. I’m putting you on moderation.

  26. M. the Social Justice Ranger

    I have to laugh (in a facepalm-y sort of way) that MRAs are always harping on about “Feminists want to classify drunken sex as rape!” but as soon as we say that no, drunken sex is just drunken sex, we end up with the world’s most regularly necrotrolled thread.

    Why, it’s almost as if we could say that the sky is blue and they’d start froth-screaming about how yellow it is.

  27. Holy cow, 400 is an ambitious and exciting landmark! This calls for confetti. And one hundred lit scented candles for…party lighting?

    Could we make a disco ball out of scented candles?

    A disco ball made of scented candles?

    I MUST HAVE THIS

    Just in case anyone wants to see the pic

  28. If a drunk woman or man starts grabbing a dudes junk, puts their junk in his face or tries to preform oral on a man and does not have consent from that man = rape. I bet if our troll was pawed by a sloppy drunk, he’d know it was sexual assault. If he was drunk and someone started trying that without his consent he’d know it was sexual assault. The problem he is having is that he does not see how a woman’s consent is important.

  29. cassandrakitty

    When you’re so desperate to prove that women rape too that you’ve started accusing women who fail to prevent someone else from raping them while drunk of rape, not only have you jumped several sharks, you really need to sit down and think about why you chose this particular windmill to tilt at. [rest of comment removed by DF]

  30. Reading back through the comments I’ve seen several that are insinuating (or that could be read as insinuating) that WR is making this argument because he’s a rapist. That sort of speculation is inappropriate on this blog. I’ve removed the offfending portions of several comments along those lines.

  31. Your blog, your rules, David, but I’ve got to say I’m kind of surprised. Troll – a man – comes insisting that a drunk man trying to force sex on a sober woman means she’s raping him, and defends that despite all evidence to the contrary – yes, women reading that are going to draw conclusions about just why he’s so invested in that argument. It’s a self-defence thing as well as, in too many cases, an experience thing.

  32. cassandrakitty

    I always love it when men tell women that they’re not allowed to speculate as to why particular patterns of behavior might be occurring in a particular man. Women definitely don’t have additional context to put this kind of thing in that men don’t that might lead us to drawing certain conclusions based on many years of experience dealing with creepy, boundary-pushing men. Let’s just ignore that part of the Shrodinger’s Rapist post that pointed out that certain attitudes and behaviors ring our alarm bells for a reason.

    David is entitled to mod his own blog however he wants, but that doesn’t mean that I have to always agree with him, and in this case I do not.

  33. thebewilderness

    I suspect that many of us long since speculated “walks like a duck, talks like a duck” with this d00d. Requiring that we not allude to what seems obvious is your prerogative, but I confess I am confused as to why speculating that bad faith troll may be a perp is out of line here. Could you please elaborate on this, David?

  34. emilygoddess - MOD

    This is hardly the first troll to set off such alarm bells among the commentariat. I’m a little confused as to why people are only now being asked not to say so.

  35. When one out of five women are sexually assaulted in our lifetimes, that means there are a whole lot of rapists out there. It’s certainly not as high as one in five men because most rapists have multiple victims. But it’s got to be a high number number of men. Presumably rapists use the internet too and interact with women on it. It’s not really a huge leap to suspect that a man who completely dedicates himself to not understanding consent is perhaps a rapist himself. After all, they aren’t all creepy men lurking in alleys. They’re regular guys.

    As others have pointed out, it’s necessary for our personal safety to get good at spotting the red flags. I trust my instincts and I trust the instincts of other women too. There have been too many times that I’ve felt creeped out by a man at first sight only to have that instinct confirmed when he does something massively creepy. Remember when several of us thought a seemingly reasonable new commenter was a troll and then he proved it by posting a graphic and icky sexual comment?

  36. I know this is six months old now, but I just discovered that freetofish said,

    Shocked me actually. As does the condensation.

    “Condensation” for “condescension” is quite the malapropism.

  37. M. the Social Justice Ranger

    I concur with Emily; why the change now?

  38. Policy of Madness

    It’s David’s blog. He can do as he wishes and set whatever rules he wishes. I do have to wonder about the purpose of this one. What does it accomplish? The only thing I can think of is that it prevents the hurt feelings of someone whose behavior is being labeled as rapey. Is that a worthwhile goal?

    David is also under no obligation to explain his rules, but I join those who would be interested in hearing an explanation if one is offered.

  39. I’m certainly not saying I know better than anyone here how to spot predators and/or rapists; I don’t. My issue isn’t whether the speculation is correct or not; there are a lot of rapists out there, and I would agree that a larger than average portion of those who make arguments like this are probably rapists.

    I would just rather not have this sort of speculation in the comments on the blog when it involves someone posting here about whom we know nothing beyond what what they’ve written. Especially if there is a chance they’re posting using their real name or an identity that can be connected to them in real life. (Speculation about public figures is obviously fine.)

    If a troll is setting off alarm bells to you, please contact the mods (the mail also goes to me) and I will happily ban them.

  40. emilygoddess - MOD

    Then you need to be more specific about what kind of comments are unacceptable. My comment that he was displaying consent-ignoring behavior and “there’s a word for that” was left up. Are we allowed to say that someone sounds like a rapist? To ask why he’s so invested in defending rapists? To say we would not feel safe alone with him? We get a lot of rape-apologist trolls and this is going to become an issue again, so a vague “I removed some insinuating comments” isn’t going to be helpful going forward.

    And I’d still like to know why the sudden change.

    If a troll is setting off alarm bells to you, please contact the mods (the mail also goes to me) and I will happily ban them.

    That’s not the issue here (although it is really frustrating that your involvement in this thread didn’t include a ban or even a warning toward the blatant rape apologist). People weren’t insinuating he was a rapist to punish him for trolling. They were doing it because these are things that must be pointed out. I mean, this is basic “Gift of Fear” stuff. Women need to be able to identify red flags and see each other doing so. This helps us hone our creep-dars, and allows us to fight against the social programming telling us that it’s not ~nice~ to say or even think these things.

    I would just rather not have this sort of speculation in the comments on the blog when it involves someone posting here about whom we know nothing beyond what what they’ve written. Especially if there is a chance they’re posting using their real name or an identity that can be connected to them in real life.

    Your blog, your rules, but I can’t say I’m terribly concerned about the Google honor of a rape apologist. And as you yourself have told MRAs on numerous occasions, accusations of rape rarely end up ~ruining the man’s life~, so it’s kinda weird to see you busting that out.

  41. I would just rather not have this sort of speculation in the comments on the blog when it involves someone posting here about whom we know nothing beyond what what they’ve written. Especially if there is a chance they’re posting using their real name or an identity that can be connected to them in real life.

    Then maybe they should use a pseudonym while they’re busy spewing rape apologia.

  42. Just to be clear: WJ is banned. These days when I put someone on moderation, they’re more or less the same as banned unless they’re modded for merely being tedious, in which case they may get a troll challenge. In this case I said “moderation” b/c I hadn’t yet had a chance to go back over all of WJs comments but now that I have, well, he’s banned.

    Are we allowed to say that someone sounds like a rapist? To ask why he’s so invested in defending rapists? To say we would not feel safe alone with him?

    Yes to all of these things. Yes to saying that certain arguments send up red flags for you. Yes to the sort of thing that Cassandrakitty said in the part of her comment that I left up. Yes to any number of similar ways of raising your concerns about a person.

    What I would ask is that you not more or less directly accuse someone who’s commenting here on this blog of committing a serious crime, unless you have specific evidence of that.

    The same applies to speculation about the personal lives of people commenting here. There was some speculation about Janet Bloomfield’s parenting skills or possible lack thereof in a previous thread; it got some pushback from other commenters, and I agree with those who thought it was inappropriate. In retrospect I should have probably stepped in and possibly deleted some comments on that.

    This doesn’t apply if someone has incriminated themselves. I have no problem with people saying that Roosh, by his own admission, is a rapist because, by his own admission, he has engaged in activities that would be considered rape in the US, ergo he’s a rapist.

    And if someone says something disturbing about how they treat their kids (or some other aspect of their personal life), then that’s fair game as well.

    Absent evidence of wrongdoing, we should focus on people’s arguments and not what we think they may have done. If you think someone is a piece of shit rape apologist, say that. If what they’re saying raises red flags for you, say that.

    I need to do a thorough rewrite of the comments policy. Not just (or even mainly) because of this but because I’m a lot more inclined to ban trolls now than i have been in the past and the policy doesn’t fully reflect that at the moment.

  43. cassandrakitty

    What on earth is going on in this conversation? It’s getting Twilight Zone-ish. You appear to be trying to draw a line so fine that it’s going to be pretty much impossible to navigate, or rather asking the women who comment here to do so. For the sake of not making dudes like this one feel bad? If you were saying that you were worried about getting sued that would make some sort of sense, but this really isn’t.

  44. I think I get what David’s saying:

    If someone out and out claims they’ve done something bad, or describes enough that we can say the things they’re saying are ridiculously wrong, than calling that out’s good.

    … but when it’s vague, I don’t think David want’s this blog to be a place where MRAs and Trolls can point to and yell “FALSE ACCUSATIONS” or claim that we call anyone we disagree with criminals. Also, even if it might not be lawsuit worthy, not libeling people is probably good policy.

    Even if they are creepy, creepy, creepy folks who would fit in well in Mos Eisley and have red flags of badness. Telling them they are creepy, creepy folks who would fit in well in Mos Eisley is still fine. Because it is truth.

    Saying, “Hey everyone! See this glorious example of a red flag? It is associated with this and this and this, and is creepy and if you ever meet someone in 3D-space with this, RUN” is also still fair.

    David, am I sort of right?

    Did that actually disambiguate anything?

  45. Meh, David’s blog, David’s rules.

    Also, he’s the first one who’d get named in any law suits. And even a frivolous, unwinnable one filed purely for the annoyance factor can be a pain in the butt, and expensive. Since I like this blog too much to deliberately contribute to any aggravation for its owner, I think I can live with this addendum.

    Finally, David’s blog, David’s rules. (and that really is my best argument)

  46. contrapangloss, thank you, and yes, you did.

    David, thank you for clarifying; I’ll just say it would have saved a lot of distress if you’d done so to begin with. It initially read as “man telling a bunch of women not to say someone came across as a likely rapist”.

  47. Someone talking like a rapist, someone using the same arguments rapists use to absolve themselves of responsibility for rape – all you need to support that is a person’s words, which these fucking creeps dole out whether we wish them too or not.

    I don’t know whether these guys are rapists or not – I certainly don’t have any evidence that they’re responsible for any occurrence of rape – but I do know that if a rapist overheard what they were saying they would think that person was their bro and took no issue with their actions.

  48. I’ve only just heard about this debacle, and now that I’ve heard both sides, I’ve come to a personal conclusion. (Which I will share because it’s the internet fuck you buddy I didn’t make you read this shit.)

    I think it’s pretty clear that she did not rape anybody, but that attempting to sleep with someone so wasted was still irresponsible. Irresponsibility isn’t a crime, nor should she be crucified for it. However, if I were in her shoes, I’d have been too damn terrified to even think too loudly about sex with someone so drunk. The idea of someone potentially waking up to remember the events with disdain is simply horrifying, and I would never want to be the person to ruin someone’s day/week/year/life(?).

  49. coltov mocktail

    Reverse genders and i’d love to hear how it isn’t rape. Schumer had sex with a guy who was completely out of it. doesn’t matter who did what to whom. if Schumer was a guy and Matt was a girl -no one would have a problem calling it rape.

  50. Oh, FFS. How many fucking times did we go over this? No, Amy Schumer did not rape Matt.

    But sure, let’s reverse the genders and see!

    The original:

    The short version of the story: A guy named Matt, whom Schumer had a giant crush on, called her at 8 AM for a booty call, after he apparently had been turned down by every other woman in his little black book. Amy, thinking she was being invited for an all-day-date, only discovered his real intent when she got to his dorm room and he romantically drunkenly pushed her onto the bed and started fingering her.

    After several failed attempts at intercourse, and what she describes as an “ambitious” attempt to go down on her, he finally gave up and fell asleep on top of her. Lying there listening to Sam Cooke, she decided she didn’t want to be “this girl” any more, “waited until the last perfect note floated out, and escaped from under him and out the door.”

    Now, with the genders reversed!

    The short version of the story: A woman named Mary, whom Andy had a giant crush on, called him at 8 AM for a booty call, after she apparently had been turned down by every other man in her little black book. Andy, thinking he was being invited for an all-day-date, only discovered her real intent when he got to her dorm room and she romantically drunkenly pushed him onto the bed and started fingering him.

    After several failed attempts at intercourse, and what he describes as an “ambitious” attempt to go down on him, she finally gave up and fell asleep on top of him. Lying there listening to Sam Cooke, he decided he didn’t want to be “this guy” any more, “waited until the last perfect note floated out, and escaped from under her and out the door.”

    Now, did Andy rape Mary in that hypothetical, gender-reversed situation? No, no he did not. Hypothetical Andy, like real Amy, was the passive recipient of drunken groping and attempts at sex, not the initiator. You can not commit a crime by not commiting a crime. You can not rape someone while passively laying underneath them and not doing anything to them while they finger and hump you. This should be completely fucking obvious.

    And it is to everyone but willfully ignorant trolls looking for a “gotcha.”

  51. Mocktail,
    If a drunk man tried to start a fight with you by pushing you and hitting you and you, who are sober push him to get him off of you, are you guilty of assault? After all, he was drunk. So even though he was the aggressor, he’s not responsible for his aggression. Because drunk. Therefore, you assaulted an innocent man who did not know what he’s doing!

  52. doesn’t matter who did what to whom.

    Yeah, kiddo. It does. Make context your friend.

    If a drunk guy were to finger your butt, I think you’d understand that you weren’t raping him.
    Now back! Back to the Reddit thread that spawned you!

  53. Alan Robertshaw

    Interestingly under English law she might have committed an offence.

    We have a new offence of ‘causing a person to engage in a sexual act’. It’s aimed at people who passively get sexual gratification from someone who’s not capable of consenting.

    Although the Act uses the word ’caused’ that has sometimes been held to include ‘permits ‘

    The framers of the act probably had in mind someone who just left their bits in the way as it were when someone was half asleep, but it could apply here. In theory

    I doubt if the CPS would consider it in the public interest to prosecute as Amy removed herself from the situation before he got too far.

  54. Wow, they’re never going to stop necroing this one, are they?

  55. emilygoddess - WHTM Mod

    i’d love to hear how it isn’t rape

    Then feel free to scroll bsck and familiarize yourself with the 656447 other times this has been addressed.

  56. Princess Star

    Anti-feminists are douches.

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