Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men’s Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.
Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,
Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
Posted on May 6, 2014, in all about the menz, entitled babies, evil women, excusing abuse, father's rights, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, patriarchy, playing the victim and tagged domestic violence, fathers' rights, lundy bancroft, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy. Bookmark the permalink. 630 Comments.
@Bon O Bolishus: Paragraph breaks, man, paragraph breaks. They make reading a whole lot easier.
As for some of the points I had to dig through that wall o’ text to get:
Dude, let’s make one thing perfectly clear: the male experience is not a secret. Men are not silenced in a society that is revolving around men. The only people who want to keep men from expressing their vulnerability are people who subscribe to toxic masculinity, that is, generally other men.
The reason I didn’t have any male friends to speak of growing up and why the number of male friends I have now can be counted with the fingers on one hand is precisely because I am very emotional and don’t conform to the traditional male gender role, and I have always been bullied and ridiculed because of it. By other men. Not by women, and most certainly not by feminists. Who, by the way, don’t like traditional gender roles.
Oh, great, because being a man is just sooooooo much a unique experience, no woman can possibly have felt anything remotely like a man in any situation.
Having male friends is not a bad thing. Subscribing to toxic notions about a man’s role in relation to society is. The MRM does the latter. Read some of their stuff, and you’ll see a large part of them insists that men are violent and dominating by nature, and having any emotions besides rage is for women. Go on, I’ll wait. Meanwhile, I’ll just remind you that feminists don’t believe in traditional gender roles.
No, but the fact that the vast majority of prominent MRAs condone violence against people they don’t like is evidence enough. The mythical, elusive ‘moderate MRA’, if he or she exists, is in the minority. Do you even read what men’s righters write?
Also, you’re making excuses for bullies by claiming their violent rhetoric comes from pain instead of a sense of entitlement. I’ll come back to that in a little bit.
Again, nothing. The fact that you think you’ll find that with the MRAs tells me you’re an ignoramus of the highest degree. Also, it depends on what these frustrations are. If you want to vent about society and its fucked-up gender roles, there are plenty of places to do that, especially in feminist circles. Did I mention that feminists agree that gender roles suck? On the other hand, if you just want to blame women for an inadequate sex life or otherwise place the blame for the evils of the world on women, then a hate site like A Voice for Men might just be up your alley.
Bullshit. Men are allowed to do that just fine. Also, make up your mind: do you think gender roles are stupid, or do you think men experience some biological reality that women can never hope to understand because they’re too different from us?
Umm… Where is this “here” you’re talking about? This site? Because I’m a man, and I’ve never felt anything but welcome here. Could it be that you do think that women are terrible, and you attribute the fact that the men here don’t believe women are terrible to “political correctness gone mad” instead of, you know, the men here actually not believing that women are terrible? Is that so unthinkable? Contrary to your claims, anti-feminists and MRAs are the ones who like to engage in doxing, harassing and threatening individuals who disagree with them, not the social justice crowd.
First off, citation needed for, like, 80% of this shit. “Genderless crime”? Really? “The vast majority of domestic abuse occurs at the hands of the mother”? REALLY?
As for the rest, are you fucking kidding me? Society constantly blames mothers for their children’s behaviour. Fathers and the toxic masculine ideas they instill in their sons are curiously enough rarely discussed when some violent man does something violent. Blame is almost always placed on some woman in their life. Society loves to try to understand and defend bullies, and because of male entitlement, the belief that men are superior to women and are entitled to attention from women and other shit simply because of their maleness, bullies are almost always men.
I’m not going to bother with the rest, since you are clearly making stuff up. I have seen no evidence that feminists engage in remotely the same kind of ignorant entitlement-based ragewank that MRAs do. False equivalency is false.
Is it nice living inside a box?
@kittehserf: That’s hilarious! I kinda imagine this is how a cat would do housekeeping:
I’ve been labelled abusive by a feminist with whom I had a short relationship a few months ago. I knew that she wasn’t being exclusive to me and I was fine with that, but one day, she told me that she had a crush on a guy and went on narrating the story of their encounter, I responded to her coldly that I didn’t want to hear any of that and that I felt disrespected and she accused me of being abusive, as well as being a potential woman-beater, for… to speak in a feminist language, assessing boundaries in a cold tone.
At this moment, I got it. For her and all the women who think like her, men aren’t people, they’re toys whose only purpose is to please them, toys they can play with, they can crush whenever they want to. Toys aren’t suppose to complain or feel pain, so if a toy hurt your feels by being cold after you did something mean to it, you can’t possibly have done anything wrong, you’re just being abused by a defective toy.
If you think that men are toys, it makes sense to think that mras are abusers when there’s no evidence showing that the proportion of abusive men is greater among mras than, for example, male feminists (where’s a proeminent mra equivalent of Hugo shwyzer?), mras abuse women simply by stating that they want to be more than women’s disposable toys.
I respect people boundaries, I try as much as I can to not hurt others, but for some people the mere fact that I have some boundaries and opinions of my own is in itself offensive and abusive because they think I should rather just be a toy. This young feminist said to me: “mais pour qui est-ce que tu prends?”. I think I’m a human being and each time you call someone like me a whiny fedora-wearing neck-bearded privileged assholish abusive loser who should never be with women ever I take it as a reminder that I should feel no guilt for refusing to be a toy.
Anarchonist – ALL THE APPLAUSE for those comments, also for avoiding the claws of the Blockquote Monster.
I never thought of Max-Arthur and his roomba riding with that ad, but you’re right, that’s just how a cat would do it. Love all the Helen’s Pets videos.
Bon O Bolishus:
No, see, if you have children, then yes, of course, you are expected to treat them well and take care of them. That has nothing to do with being a man or a woman and everything to do with being a parent.
I’m getting really fucking sick of this notion. The idea that hateful people are hateful because they just hurt so damn much, and can’t you show a little compassion?
Heh heh. Now we’re the “strong arm of the anti-MRA gang.” But please, point me to where anyone here has said that men aren’t allowed to have feelings?
Won’t somebody think of the angry, violent men?
Again, please point out where men are “pigeonholed” or are considered completely without value.
Really? Have you actually read the comments on MRA boards? You might want to go through the archives here and get back to us on that one. Cause, no one here excuses violent behavior, makes rape and/or death threats, excuses making rape and/or death threats, engages in rape apology and/or abuse apology, doxxes people, excusing the doxxing of people, regularly refers to people using gendered slurs, are racist, are homophobic, are transphobic, – I really could go on for a long time here. But please, link to actual evidence of this. Please link to or point out an article and/or comment, made by a regular and not a troll, that is as hateful as what MRAs spew on a daily basis. Please do that.
I’m not sure I’ve ever known anyone who actually identified as an MRA in real life, but I have known some people who might have been, and a handful of regular misogynists. Years ago, in college, there was an older man in one of my classes who was constantly speaking up about gendered issues, spouting the general MRA talking points. It wasn’t a gender studies class at all, so it always seemed really weird and out of place. I remember the class laughing at him when, out of the blue, he said “Men shouldn’t have to pay child support because it’s a woman’s body.” The most memorable thing he ever said, though, was trying to argue that sex should be included at the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, because “it’s something animals do”. At the time, that comment was a head scratcher, but now that I think about it, an MRA thinking that sex was a need so basic that it could be considered a human right like food and shelter is not that strange.
I suspect my brother is getting into MRA nonsense, but I don’t really interact with him enough to know for sure. I feel kind of bad for him; he has some anxiety issues (I mean, my siblings and I all have some anxiety issues, but it sounds like his are worse) and my sister says he is a narcissist. He very well might be. He’s 28, chronically unemployed since finishing college. My parents pay his rent and bills so he can have an apartment, but he spends half his time at their house anyways (If you ask him, he’ll tell you they never gave him anything). He’s verbally abusive towards my mother, who continues to dote on him. I offered to put his resume in at my work for a temp job, once. Not the best job, but pay was $10/hr, and I know three people who went on to permanent, better positions starting at this job. He refused it, because he refuses to work for (Canadian) minimum wage. What difference does it make how much you earn when you’ve got mom and dad paying the bills anyways? A few months ago my mom said he called her something, she couldn’t remember what, but it was “like a male chauvinist pig, but against men”. Ugh.
Lundy Bancroft’s book meant a lot to me when I was getting out of my own nasty situation several years ago. It helped me to make sense of what was had been a bewildering situation for quite a long time. I’d recommend his book to any woman who is dealing with an abusive man in her life.
My ex had never discovered MRA philosophies but I’m sure that if he had, he would have used them to his benefit. I still remember the time I finally got him to agree to seek therapy for his anger issues, and how he came back from his sessions saying the therapist thought I had control issues that were causing him to be so angry, and that I should read “The Surrendered Wife” to deal with that.
He didn’t let that one go for YEARS and used my refusal to read the book as proof that I didn’t love him or care about our marriage, so I’m sure that if he’d actually found MRA philosophies – which are actually in line with a lot of beliefs he already had about women and relationships – he would have really gone bonkers with them, as it would have given him even more of a reason to believe he was right about everything.
I’m coming in late, so free internet hugs to those I’ve missed that want them
@alex
Bleach. Former neighbor +former friend sound rather icky
@dustedeste
“Yeah, I hope he can get better, but I’m not depending on it. I’ve seen people get better about their bigotry, but I just feel like it’s foolish to count on it at this point. I just really want to have someone in the family that I can be pansexual, capitalism-critical, socially-liberal, feminist, atheist me around without any qualms, but it just feels like I’m doomed to make awkward smalltalk about the weather with all my relatives forever because everything interesting will unleash a torrent of hatred and gross opinions about how the gender wage gap doesn’t exist and there’s no such thing as racism anymore :/”
Bla, that sounds sucky. I’ve got one massive dick in my family like that, but the rest are mostly okay, so I got lucky.
Aaaaannnnddd as anyone who’s seen me complain here probably knows, that massive dick is my stepmom. She’s convinced girls are just more emotional than boys, girls try to manipulate you by crying (something that’s really shitty for A PARENT WHO STILL HAS KIDS WHO CRY A LOT TO THINK) gay dudes are lol effeminate, dressing in revealing clothes means you don’t respect yourself, and that being called sexist is the same thing as someone calling you names. I left out more of here greatest hits for breve ritzy.
@girlsmarts
Sorry to hear about your doouchey dad. ::offers Internet hugs::
@ally
Hugs from me, if wanted.
@Bon o boils jus
O boy this will take a while…
” Yet every where I turned I was reminded to be good to women (irrelevant of how they treated me) ”
I’ll have shit that doesn’t happen for 200 please. Unless you’re talking about chil vary, but that’s a different deal, and not something many women really support.
“make enough money to be an eligilbe male suitable to care for a woman, ”
Well, that is actually a social expectation of men, so congrats, you actually found one
“and be a great and supportive role model for your kids.”
Where is this great place you live where this is an expectation of men? Cuz I’ve heard men refer to taking care of their own kids as ‘babysitting’. Ppl act like its so great when men take the kids for a little bit, and they get congratulated epon what women do all the fucking time. Men are held to way lower standards as parents than women.
“There is something very different about communing with men, being around others who share the same frustrations and joys”
You do realize what the mrm actually wants, right? They don’t want rights for men, they want to be able to hit women, abandon their kids, and have sec with teenagers. Ffs
” I am also not interested in blindly treating women like lost puppies.”
Keep on fighting that strawman.
“I would like to find a happy medium where I can be wlecome by women and express my frustrations as a man. What is wrong with that?”
Nothing on principal but you are sooooo in the wrong movement if you actually want these things
“We love to talk about angry men, violent men. We hate talking about how that man became angry. If we do it’s because of an abusive stepfather or father, never an abusive mother. We say that he should be in better control of himself, but we never say that boy maybe a product of his mums vicious beatings”
Of course, ther must be a woman to blame somewhere!
” though domestic violence is a genderless crime all we ever hear about or see is the male side. That is really unfair. Especially when the vast majority of domestic abuse occurs at the hand of the mother.”
Citation needed, bub.
And posting bc I don’t want to lose this. Doubly so bc typing on an iPad is hhaaarrrddd
@anarchonist
“Umm… Where is this “here” you’re talking about? This site? Because I’m a man, and I’ve never felt anything but welcome here.”
That’s because you’re not a troll…i mean, it’s because you’re a misandrist white knight.
As for meeting MRAs, there is this BDSM forum where I hang out a lot.
Lately, some dudes are apparently very bothered by the fact that there are discussions about gender, gender discrimination and violence against women.
There are of course a lot of posts on other subjects, both within BDSM themes and random unrelated stuff, but whenever a gender discussion arises, they start complaining and crying why can’t we leave the subject alone.
The most prominent of these guys (who also participates in real-life meetings in that community) has pulled a LOT of MRA-like stuff lately: men are oppressed, Feminism is hateful, traditional gender roles are “natural” and must be enforced (like that’s not contradictory at all, uh-huh), lots of evo-psych, I think he even referred us to WTF “myth of male power” for “more information” once.
There are a few others who are backwards sexist/misogynists who don’t seem to have a systemic “philosophy” to justify their beliefs… I’ll keep an eye on them to see if the alpha asshole drags them to his cesspool of MRAness.
@ Luzbelitx :
Let me guess: These guys are doms, not subs?
I find that your comment is one of those ignorant ones just like those from the MRA boards.
Please fuck off and take your self-pity for a long walk on a short pier.
Nothing’s wrong with that, but it usually comes with a side order of “Why won’t you women fix me?” Ain’t nobody got time for that, or your whining.
@Rea
Actually, the MRAish guy is a switch, although his profile reads “Dom”.
The main non-MRAish dude is a sub, who uses that as an excuse to “prove” he’s not a misogynist.
The rest of the choir, yes, mainly doms.
I guess asshole comes in all shopes and flavors…
@augochlorella
For the edification of those reading at home, from the copy of Why Does He Do That that I happen to have in front of me right now:
The reason I quote that paragraph is that I read it a bit ago and had to re-read it eight times to make sure someone from this site hadn’t broken into my apartment and put a post-it note over the section of the book with a basic summation of the MRA and the trolls here. Augochlorella is totally right, it was just so… weirdly spot on.
I recommend the book, Why Does He Do That, to anyone interested in reading about abusive patterns.
And if you do break into my apartment and secretively edit my books, you can just, like, knock on the door.
I don’t know anyone who has admitted to being an actual MRA to me (they probably would know better), but I do know a lot of garden-variety misogynists that are MRAs in everything but name. In my experience, once you get past any shallow “niceties”, MRA think is everywhere, in men as well as women.
I think the biggest problem with the MRM is that the MRM is often the biggest gig in town when it comes to actually addressing men’s issues. IMO feminism does a terrible job at this because feminism has become terribly reactive to men’s issues over the past 10 years. For example, I’ve heard many feminists argue with MRA-types over male circumcision being “not as bad” as ANY type of female circumcision. In truth, provided an adequate amount of medical care, from an ethical standpoint male circumcision is as bad as, say, Type Ia female circumcision. The medical community agrees that there’s no medically necessary reason for male circumcision, so why argue fellow feminists? Qualifying support for male issues with “but men have it better” is obnoxious whether or not it’s true. We can push for equality without playing the Oppression Olympics and pushing men into the arms of the MRM.
The more invested people are in a philosophy such as the MRM, the less willing they are to question it’s problematic areas. It’s human nature.
@Caitlin
Oh god, that title. Glancing over the book’sWikipedia page shows that the book seems to be mostly about surrendering control and respecting your husband’s choices while still taking care of your own needs, so I don’t know why she would name her book that. Of course, I’ve never read the book either, and since some of it’s synopsis reeks of gender essentialism, I’m guessing that she’s simply an idiot.
And this reminds me why some experts warn that “normal” counseling can make abuse worse. -_-
Citation needed.
I’m not a part of any BDSM community, but I sure recognize that attitude. It happens a lot on Game of Thrones fan site I frequent. Whenever there’s an issue concerning sexism or racism surrounding the show, there’s a whole chorus of people, almost all of whom seem to be men whining about the fact that there’s a conservation. There’s a whole lot of “this isn’t tumblr this is a GoT site” kind of comments. Or a lot of claims that a TV show is not real and can’t be connected with sexism or racism IRL.
It’s not just there of course. Whenever an article about rape, sexism or harassment is posted on Gawker, Deadspin or Kotaku there’s a chorus of complaints about how the article should be on Jezebel because a sexism discussion is off topic for any site that isn’t dedicated to women’s issues. There’s also a flood of “oh no here come the Jezzies patriarchy lol” type of jokes.
It’s hugely telling. I know this site is dedicated to people who go out of their way to be overt misogynists. But there’s a softer, more covert form of misogyny out there too. So many men would like to close their ears and eyes so they don’t have to hear about misogyny. They think it shouldn’t have to concern them. They want us to shut up. I don’t know what the motivations are. Do they not want to acknowledge their privilege? I think maybe it’s a mix of not wanting to let go of privilege and guilt about their own role in perpetuating a system where they’re privileged and someone else is marginalized.
In some people like this, who tell themselves they aren’t sexist, racist, homophobic etc. but don’t want even hear about these issues, let alone do anything about them are in a lot of ways a bigger problem than the MRM. At least the MRM is a fringe group. Rolling ones eyes at feminists and carrying on pretending sexism is over because we vote and work now is unfortunately a mainstream thing.
I hope I’m making sense. I haven’t had caffeine yet.
@MEZ
“IMO feminism does a terrible job at this because feminism has become terribly reactive to men’s issues over the past 10 years. ”
Um, not sure if that reactive thing is right, but you do realize that /feminism isn’t about men/ right? It’s great that dismantling rigid gender roles can help some men, but that’s not the main goal, and IMO, shouldn’t be the main goal.
“We can push for equality without playing the Oppression Olympics and pushing men into the arms of the MRM.”
Men can take responsibility for their actions. It’s not our job to coddle them. If a feminist being mean to them drives them to the mrm, they weren’t worth having as an ally anyway.
“The more invested people are in a philosophy such as the MRM, the less willing they are to question it’s problematic areas. It’s human nature.”
-_- o rly?
@weirdwoodtreehugger
You’re making perfect sense to me :3
No shit. Feminism is for women. Therefore, it doesn’t focus on men.
The only “men’s issues” that feminists even criticize are ones rooted in male entitlement and privilege. One of those being the assumption that we are obligated to do all of the activism for men.
Right? On the topic of “how men’s rights ideologies empower abusers”, you’d be hard-pressed to demonstrate that women or other genders were feeling empowered to abuse by the MRM in the same way that men are. GNL apparently thinks it’s misandrist to talk about men doing bad things at all without mentioning that women are also terrible.
There was that time Cathy Brennan outed a trans teen to his school, but that had more to do with transphobia than misandry.
<3
Fuck this and fuck you. Plenty of people manage to survive abuse without becoming abusers themselves. My dad never laid a finger on us, rarely even raised his voice, despite the hell he endured as a kid. I was emotionally and verbally abused by my mother, and I’ve worked my ass off to be better than her. You can take your abuse apologia and shove it.
Mez,
I have to disagree. “What about the men?” Has just been the new tactic misogynists have found to silence feminists. Although feminism is opposed to traditional roles and ending them can help men in a variety of ways, that doesn’t feminism has to dedicate exactly 50% of its energy to men’s issues. Feminists are forced to constantly prove that women are still marginalized compared to men because anti-feminists are always bringing up “what about the men” to derail any conservation about women’s issues. Any true ally knows feminists don’t hate men, but all the same we’re constantly required to prove that.
Regarding the circumcision debate: Whenever I see a comparison between it and FGM, it’s always the MRA types who bring the subject up. They say it’s hypocritical for anyone to devote energy to ending FGM without dedicating the exact same energy to ending the circumcision of baby boys. Again, it’s a perfect example of the way MRAs try to silence feminism and derail attention from women’s/girl’s issues. Before we’re allowed to be concerned about FGM we must first prove to every man on earth that we are equally concerned about him. Bullshit. The two are not equivalent at all. I’m not necessarily pro-circumcision. Why not let a man decide if he wants it done as an adult? But it’s terribly offense to compare them. Men don’t face a lifetime of pain and suffering from circumcision. FGM is done specifically to cause painful intercourse.
@emilygoddess
“There was that time Cathy Brennan outed a trans teen to his school, but that had more to do with transphobia than misandry.”
Ugh thats horrible :(
I think they don’t really get to the guilty part, but they do think they are entitled to not be bothered by what they consider “someone elses’ problem”.
The non-MRA-yet sub dude has many catchphrases about how others “whine about oppression because they need to blame others for their problems”. I think this type of guys just rationalize their guilt away.
I just remembered a thread a few months ago, in which a woman asked why some of us were using x for gender-neutralizing nouns and adjectives in Spanish. People dropped by to share their views, and soon these guys (and the author of the thread herself) were all “stop shoving your not-normal language in our faces, YOU’RE OPPRESSING US!!”
Make up you mind already! ><
Do you even know what feminism is about? Hint, it’s not about men.
Ok, I know I’m all riled up talking about my BDSM community, but this hits right in the target.
The MRAish Switch dude actually threw in the male circumcision argument.
In a thread about street harassment.
To prove we don’t care about “men’s issues”.
He never, ever initiated any discussion on any men issue whatsoever.
Male circumcision included.
There is a special circle in hell for what-about-teh-menz-ers.
@Luzbelitx
Fun thing about “IMO” is that it means that it’s an opinion, a personal observation. You can believe that feminism is all about teh men all you want, but I’ve seen otherwise. It’s a point that both Marie and Ally made themselves; feminism is about women, not men.
And that’s my point. The MRM is needed to support the changes that men need to make in society, but it’s being increasingly radicalized, and IMO feminism is contributing to it. As long as men stay the same, gender roles in general will stay the same.
@Marie
I never said “we must coddle and do the work for teh menz”, a sexist belief on it’s own. I said “we shouldn’t poo-poo men’s issues”, which does happen. For ONE example, I gave the Oppression Olympics that can occur over circumcision.
Good luck making changes to society with those sour grapes.
I mean, it’d be easy for me to make that mistake and talk about how feminism is great for men because feminism has been great for me, personally. It’s freed me from a lot of gender role nonsense that was suffocating me and given me the language and resources to dismantle the toxic patriarchy that was drowning me…
But it didn’t do that for me, or as a focus on me, and that stuff I was drowning in? It was uncomfortable for me, sure, but at the same time I was a jack-booted enforcer of the patriarchy, and my participation made things much, much worse for the women in my life.
Even though there have been good outcomes FOR me, the best outcomes of the changes in my life have been for the women in my life.
So, yeah, feminism isn’t for men, but it’s a heck of a lot better for them than the MRM.
WWTH:
And you could replace FGM with any number of issues. Reproductive rights. The wage gap. Fill-in-the-blank.
You’ll notice we’re talking about circumcision. On a feminist misogyny-mocking site, in the comments of an article about domestic abuse.
Again, citation needed. Unless assfax is the way you want to roll, in which case carry on.
Feminism is not making the MRM act like abusers. Those dudes were that way before they found the MRM.
Oh, please. If you want to concern yourself with the men and coddle their feels, go right ahead, but don’t throw tone shade at those of us who are sick of that shit.
@weirwoodtreehugger Ah you ninja’d me. Without turning this thread into a debate about circumcision, (unless you guys want to), there’s different “types” of female circumcision, and male circumcision is not all rosey. It’s a surgery, with risks, and men can be mutilated by it.
@MEZ
“And that’s my point. The MRM is needed to support the changes that men need to make in society, but it’s being increasingly radicalized, and IMO feminism is contributing to it. As long as men stay the same, gender roles in general will stay the same.”
Um wow okay I would reaaaallly like to hear why you think the mrm is needed. Because that begs explanation.
“I never said “we must coddle and do the work for teh menz”, a sexist belief on it’s own. I said “we shouldn’t poo-poo men’s issues”, which does happen. For ONE example, I gave the Oppression Olympics that can occur over circumcision.”
Yes, but feminism isn’t about men’s issues. And I don’t think people have collected research on this, but personal anecdote here seems so far that there are way more men bringing circumcision in as a derail that women poo pooing it.
“”If a feminist being mean to them drives them to the mrm, they weren’t worth having as an ally anyway.”
Good luck making changes to society with those sour grapes.”
Cute. So me not wanting to coddle little fucks like the mrm is sour grapes. Troll harder, little man.
MEZ paraphrased: without turning this thread into a debate about circumcision, let me ramble about circumsicion
I have known a few people vaguely hostile to feminism, one who turned MRA, immersed himself in the Spearhead and AVFM. But he burned out after about a year.
Quite pathetic really, conspiracy theorist, heavy drinker, no confidence with women, a bit immature. I think there are plenty of MRAs like him who stick around longer.
In a sense, some MRA theory is quite clever – take guys who have no confidence and drum into them that evil feminists hold that they have privilege. They don’t feel privileged, they feel scared of women. Tell inadequate guys that the sexual rejection that they feel isn’t their fault, it’s women’s – they just want alpha guys.
It’s lowest common denominator stuff, but it works.
But, and this is a bit but, when almost the entirety of your movement is comprised of people with confidence and inadequacy issues, then your movement isn’t going anywhere fast.
If you look at the most prominent MRAs about today, quite a few are failed writers. They only audience that they can get is amongst an anonymous crowd of embittered online troll.
The calibre of person involved in the MRM is exceptionally low. The puerile antics, badly organised events, preposterous theories – it’s just a clusterfuck of stupidity.
And that’s why the movement doesn’t really exist in the real world. And that’s why so few “activists” actually do anything.
I was actually referring to the first sentence I quoted:
Saying “I think” doesn’t excuse you if you’re providing a statement that can be easily proven as false.
Did you read the article up there? “Domestic violence expert says MRM philosphy makes violent men more violent”?
This means feminism is already better at addressing men’s issues even by doing nothing at all . Not fueling misogyny is infintely better than fueling it. Period.
Apart from that, it’s usually feminists who fight to get assisstance centers for victims of violence, which might not be specifically targeted for men, but male victims are usually welcome (I dare you to find a headline of a guy being kicked out of a rape crisis center for being a guy).
So the onus is on you to prove you have even the slightest reason to believe “the MRM is often the biggest gig in town when it comes to actually addressing men’s issues. “
Having just read this thread, I want to point this out:
The MRA supporters here are whining that women just don’t pay enough attention to them and that they don’t feel welcome to vent their anger and frustration at women, poor widdle babbies. They argue that MRA is great, because it confirms their victim mentality and how mean and alien women are.
The feminists are pointing out that the people who have ABUSED them used MRA talking points and even if they were not identified as MRAs, they shared the misogynistic and erroneous worldview MRAs promote.
I’m completely disgusted that these assholes would read this post and comments and STILL have the nerve to whine that they just have it sooooo hard and women just don’t do enough for them. Fuck those guys.
I don’t think anyone should be circumcised as an infant. But, so help me glob, if MEZ starts claiming that FGM is remotely like male circumcision and isn’t all that bad, I will come unglued.
@Bon again,
Um, yes, every parent should do this. This is neither an unfair expectation nor a specifically male one.
“It’s not that I’m wrong, it’s just the women don’t like having their beliefs challenged!” Can you hear yourself when you say shit like this?
Many men have things of value to say. Dismissing MRAs =/= dismissing men.
@MEZ
Do they actually argue that it’s not as bad, or do they just point out that bringing it up in discussions of FGM is a derail? ‘Cause I’ve seen a lot of the latter, but never the former.
Do you even understand feminism?
Tone argument with a side of threat. Good job, buddy.
You do realize this is just another variant of forcing feminists to prove they don’t hate men, right?
So it’s feminism’s job to keep men from staying the same?
Says the person arguing that feminism is making me become reactionary misogynist MRAs. Sour grapes all around, I guess?
Not enough nopes in the world for this statement. You are placing the blame on the marginalized group for not deferring to the privileged group enough. That’s crap.
We live in a misogynistic culture. That’s why we needed feminism in the first place. That’s why there is a backlash against feminism. It isn’t my fault some men are misogynists. It’s their fault.
You sound like the kind of person who thinks anti-black racism will magically disappear if black people will just stop wearing saggy pants and listening to rap groups.
I meant rap music. No idea why I typed groups.
This is exactly what I wanted to say, particularly in response to the circumcision comment. Because I guarantee that Mez is glossing over how those discussions actually go down. This is how they invariably happen. The topic of discussion is female genital mutilation, and the derailer completely ignores the points being made and launches instead into a tirade about male circumcision in Western countries. Any attempt to steer the conversation back to FGM is immediately shut down by the derailer, who then will later report that “feminists think there is nothing wrong with male circumcision.” In actuality, feminists are tired of our discussions being derailed and usurped. It is a known silencing tactic, and we don’t have to put up with it.
I think the biggest problem with the MRM
The biggest problem with the MRM is the same as the biggest problem with the “National Association for the Advancement of White People” and the “Christian Defense League” and the people behind the “Straight Pride” parades.
They’re all reactionary movements dedicated to preservation of the status quo, or to rolling things back to a mythical past that would be even worse. Then they try to hide this by using the rhetoric of progressive groups, and they get upset when it’s pointed out that they’re not fooling anyone.
is that the MRM is often the biggest gig in town when it comes to actually addressing men’s issues.
Because it seeks to preserve the status quo, the MRM is incapable of addressing men’s issues.
For example, I’ve heard many feminists argue with MRA-types over male circumcision being “not as bad” as ANY type of female circumcision
This is a good example. There are organizations that are actively working to stop male circumcision. The MRM has nothing do to with those organizations. Their sole contribution is to try to hijack discussions of female circumcision by demanding that everyone talk about male circumcision instead. Like I said, they’re not fooling anybody.
Marie, I think your autocorrect went a bit rogue on you. It took me a bit to figure out what “breve ritzy” was, but I got “chili vary” right away. Oh, Apple. You have the strangest ideas of what words people use.
The MRM never has and never will be needed because men are not oppressed. It’s just that some men suffer from the side-effects of patriarchal gender roles. Of course there can (and should) be men’s shelters, men’s support groups, support for male victims of sexual violence and/or abuse, meaningful dialogue about male circumcision rather than uncritical cultural acceptance of the practice, etc. But none of that needs to be contained under the umbrella of a movement.
@jayemgriffin
Yeah, sorry about that. I got some of the autocorrections, but couldn’t catch them all ;)
I want to spam every MRM board with this.
The argument that men are mistreated because they cannot stay in DV shelters is such a dishonest gripe. I’ve been on the board of a DV shelter. No, men don’t stay ten to a room in a shelter where other people’s crying babies can keep them up. They and any kids with them get a hotel room to themselves until such time as they can be placed in an apartment of their own. They receive all of the counseling, vocational rehab, etc that the women get. That’s hardly a disadvantage.
Wow are they ever missing the point… The effects of a strict and vicious patriarchy are a major theme throughout the series. How the hell can they miss that?
YES.
@Lea
Ah, here it is, I was waiting for this. This one isn’t an opinion; demonstratively male circumcision absolutely can have the terrible consequences that female circumcision can have. This is especially true in the West where level 1 FGM’s consequences to childbirth can be treated. That you assumed that I was going to say that female circumcision was “not that bad” by comparing it to male circumcision demonstrates one of two things; either a. you are unaware of terrible consequences that male circumcision can have, or b. you don’t care because it effects men. I’m guessing that it’s (a.) more than (b.), but in that case why even bother join the argument? Yes, shit like this does make it look like feminism hates/doesn’t care about men.
And, in case you missed my point; I’m saying that both male and female genital mutilation are fucking TERRIBLE, and should not be done to infants. An argument about which one is “worse” is obnoxious.
@emily
Most often they’re arguing about a derail, which is obviously a fair point. I do the same-tell “what about teh menz” to shut it. However, occasionally I see feminists flat out say that MGM < FGM, usually as an response to a derail, and occasionally just because they're asses. They're terrible people either way, and the day that feminism in general comes down on their hateful ass, the happier I will be. You guys are obviously free to disagree (and some of you will).
Didn’t realize you were a guy, emily. :) Maybe not specifically you, but you have to admit that male feminists are rare in this society. Why is that? Protecting privilege is obviously part of it, but is there anything else?
Also, I’m not an MRA (as it stands today), and not even a man. Not being a MRA (as it stands today) is a good thing, so certainly no sour grapes here!
@Luzbelitx
Because it’s the only movement that is specifically addressing men’s issues. Let me be clear- I do no support the current version of the MRM that is all about privilege and supporting abuse. But I do think that as a society we need a MRM in general, because I think that men need groups to support them as they change their gender roles. And, IMO, men do need to change their gender roles, otherwise women are limited in how much we can change ours. Unless we all go our own way, or something, which I don’t think many feminists have advocated since the 70s.
Mostly, I’m lamenting my belief that the MRM needs to get it’s act together, focus more on social justice and less on HATE. It can happen, not to many feminists mar art or burn down buildings anymore. I think feminism feeds into this dichotomy that fuels the radicalization of the MRM.
@Marie
Fair enough point. I was feeling out if there was room in this thread for a discussion of circumcision or if people wanted to leave it be.
And it doesn’t bother me any if you guys want to call my opinions “assfax”. ;) I’m looking for a discussion in this, as I care about feminism. I’m not looking for some popularity contest. :)
@mez
“They’re terrible people either way, and the day that feminism in general comes down on their hateful ass, the happier I will be”
Dude, you may find ppl saying fgm is worse than mgm tactless, but that doesn’t make them terrible ppl.
“Didn’t realize you were a guy, emily. :) Maybe not specifically you, but you have to admit that male feminists are rare in this society. Why is that? Protecting privilege is obviously part of it, but is there anything else?”
First part of that: ???? Second part: protecting privilege, not thinking it’s their problem because it doesn’t affect men, misunderstanding what feminism is about, or having valid complaints (ie, mainstream feminism focusing more on white cishet abled women). Plenty of reasons for men, or anyone, not to call themselves a feminist. Why is this relevant?
@weirwoodtreehugger
Not at all. Sexism is different than racism, and society uses different carrots different sticks to enforce it. There was never any real disadvantage or harm to white people from keeping blacks as slaves, hilarious rants about “the white man’s burden” aside. On the other hand, gender roles DO hurt men, so it’s a pretty poor comparison.
@Luzbelitx
if you’re still around can I ask you a questions?
So I have to admit to not really knowing much about BDSM or the kink community but my former roommate was pretty involved in the subculture socially (participated in online community, had friends in real life and online that where also kinky, attended ‘munches’ with them etc.) So I met a bunch of self-identifying kinky ppl irl and heard alot about ppl online.
Anyways I noticed this weird trend, specifically in ‘dominate men’ (I got schooled on mistakes in gendered terms like dominatrix and dom…..or was it dome…..anyways…). There seemed to be this recurring theme of men who always had reasons to naturalize their kinky-ness, specifically their dominate-ness. A few of them would speak very insistently of how unnatural ‘submission’ was for them and why(often extending it to men at large). Among them some seemed to be trying to ‘shrug’ their ‘dominate responsibilities’ with their ‘natural inclination for violence’ (this came up in a convo with my roomie’s boyfriend’s friend when I mentioned being ‘on top’ seemed to require a degree of responsibility and care on their part in order to be safe).
Of course this didn’t go for everyone I met, most of the people where great and all cool ‘sane, safe, consensual’ type people.
Obviously I don’t have the most experience with this stuff and was wondering what you observed?
Thanks, kittehserf, marie and emilygoddess! Trying my best.
And count me in with the people who don’t see the MRM bringing anything positive to the table. For a very short, very self-absorbed, very embarassing period in my life, I actually believed some of the so-called Nice Guy rhetoric. When some meeeeeeaaaan feminists didn’t care about my fee-fees and told me I was full of shit, I was totally shoved into the arms of the MRM and totally became a bitter, misogynistic asshole and that’s totally the fault of feminists who didn’t care about my manly tears.
No, wait, that’s not what happened at all. Because I’m not an asshole unwilling to see fault in myself and incapable of changing my ways, I took their words to heart, took a long, hard look at myself and thought: “They’re right, I’m full of shit.” And then I made an effort to change, and I changed, because that’s what halfway decent people do when made to see their full-of-shitness. They don’t start blaming others for their unwillingness to change. My point is, the MRM would only have told me I was feeling as I did because women are evil. Then they would have told me to “man up” and made me donate money to Paul Elam. They are the ones promoting a victim mentality.
Funny thing with that is, I’m fairly convinced that most of men’s issues in society actually somehow relate to misogyny. So, despite feminism not being about men, it does a whole lot of good for men as a side effect. Certainly more than the conservative, reactive Abusers’ Lobby ever will.
And now I will stop these random ramblings on this thread.
@MEZ
“On the other hand, gender roles DO hurt men, so it’s a pretty poor comparison.”
::judging the fuck out of you:: yes, sexism and racism are different, and comparing them doesn’t always work well. But to your point: GENDER ROLES HAVE NOWHERE NEAR THE BAD AFFECT ON MEN AS THEY DO ON WOMEN. It’s like saying you hurt your hand punching someone. Maybe it hurts you, but you hurt someone else a lot more, amd the whole action was yours to do. (Replace ‘you’ with ‘men’ and the punch is patriarchy. W/e. I’m not good at analogies)
MEZ, I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the MRM as it exists now can be reformed. All of the groups that I’m aware of that specifically address male issues in a non-sexist way have to specifically distance themselves from the MRM, which doesn’t bode well for its rehabilitation. Better to let it collapse and build something new.
Yes, you care so much you’re accusing feminists of driving men to the MRM and scolding them for not being nice enough. Good thing it’s not a popularity contest, because you are completely full of shit.
@Anarchonist
Don’t stop your rambling a on my account, I like them :) (tho stop if u want to, obviously)
I also had some weird nice guy shit internalized, tho thankfully I grew out of it. But I had a pretty skewed idea on what a romantic relationship should look like, and am glad I wasn’t in one in that period of my life.
Fuck you. Just fuck you. You’re false equivalency bullshit is just that, you pompous ass. You want to derail this discussion of women being abused and MRAs promoting that abuse to try to make Female Genital Mutilation that purposefully causes horrific damage to the body, life long pain and death to the things that occasionally go wrong from removal of the foreskin. That’s disgustingly dishonest.
Meanwhile, notice that I did not claim that infant male circumcision needed to be just as bad as FGM in order to be wrong. It’s not as bad. Men can still have orgasms. They do not suffer from tearing, sepsis, etc. It is not usually preformed with rusty razor blades or broken bottles. It is not done to men to control their sexuality and make them fear and have pain in sex. It is still wrong.
Not that you care. As long as you can divert out attention to you and what you want to talk about, you’re happy. As long as you get to minimize women’s suffering so that you can pretend that we’re doing something awful to men, you’re happy. You are forgetting of course that male circumcision is not an invention of feminism. It was not created and furthered by women. It is literally mandated by patriarchal societies and religions. You want to put an end to infant male circumcision? Then stop wanking off about how great MRM is and start smashing the patriarchy, you, useless,dishonest, sexist piece of shit.
Marie, no need to apologize. I was amused :)
Lea:http://www.reactiongifs.com/tag/orson-welles/
“Sexism is different than racism”
No, it isn’t.
::applause for all of what Lea just said::
So, according to you, pointing out that men are more privileged than women is bad because it’s playing oppression Olympics, but it’s OK for you to decide that racism is worse and more indefensible than misogyny? Fuck that.
You also sidestepped my point which is that it’s never OK to blame marginalized groups for their oppression. The blame lies squarely on those doing the oppressing. Just because there are problems that men face, doesn’t mean male privilege isn’t a thing and it doesn’t mean feminism is to blame for misogyny.
White people can be hurt by racism. What about interracial couples that didn’t used to be able to get married? And hey, my fair skin is a problem when it gets sunburned. That doesn’t happen to people with dark skin. None of that erases the fact that white privilege exists and none of that makes racism OK. So yes, it is a valid comparison.
Except it’s not. The MRM does none of the activism that feminists have spent decades performing — raising money for domestic violence victims, running shelters, seeking research grants, lobbying their elected officials for changes in laws, etc. And not only do they do no activism, they claim that all the work feminist activists have done for decades is “misandrist” because they don’t devote the time to men and men’s issues.
The MRM is a group of men who sit on the internet looking for women to be pissed at for the purpose of stalking, harassing, and terrorizing them, when they’re not busy sitting on the internet discussing how every major crime story can somehow be attributed to female misbehavior, or how most women are asking to be raped, or how women who are murdered had it coming, etc.
I’ve never commented on this site before, but wanted to after reading this one. My fiance was down in the dumps and looking for some solidarity when he came across a MRM group. I’m an avid feminist. We have an agreement to avoid political discussions, and this applied, so I avoided the issue. After getting in the trenches of the MRM, he realized very quickly how backward it was and asked why I hadn’t pointed out the problems with the “movement” before. At the end of the day, I think it boils down to the fact that a prince will typically act like a prince and a toad will act like a toad. All women know they can’t fix the men they’re in relationships with, so if you’re involved with someone who shows a real informed interest in these groups and wants to change your relationship dynamics to fit an MRM ideal, please realize that while you probably deserve a prince you are stuck with a toad. If pointing out the toadiness of his alliances doesn’t correct the problem, it may be time to leave. Nobody deserves to be stuck in a relationship with dynamics that prevent individual choice or agency. NOBODY! If that’s what he’s asking for, find someone who loves you for you and supports the person YOU want to be, rather than the person they want to be. Same for men who want an MRM ideal relationship. You can’t force a woman into that, but feel free to try and find someone who has the same ideals as you. She most likely doesn’t exist, but go ahead and try, and let your current partner do the same in peace.
@wierdwoodtreehugger
Eh. I’m not big on arguing whether white ppl can be hurt by racism. Tho I think your point is that even if a white person is affected negatively by something racist (not being able to marry someone) it’s because ppl though POC were lesser, and the solution shouldn’t be about helping white ppl? Like even if men aren’t seen as emotional, it’s because being emotional is seen as a womanly trait and men being like women would be bad by the patriarchy? But the solution still shouldn’t focus on men’s feelings. Idk did that make sense?
And that whole example was an intersectional fail on my part, since part of why is think racism and sexism don’t work great as a comparison is because it can make it sound like an either or, whenWOC experience both.
Yeah, did anyone else get skeeved out by the “well they can fix the complications to childbirth some of the time in some of the places” thing MEZ said in about fgm. It’s like, ignoring any other pain/complications (tho they care about the pain/complications cis men who were circumcised experience), b/c aren’t cis women* just good for babies?
*I’ve only ever heard circumcision/ fgm talked about in terms of cis people, so idk what the consequences for trans men or trans women who get circumcised or genital mutilated are.
btw, this is Fade. I hope it remembered my gravatar thingie, but if it didn’t i shall be kittyless.
@jayemgriffin
That may be true.
@hellkell
Let’s clarify; I don’t care how nice or mean feminists are to men and their “fee-fees”. I’m scolding some feminists for being out-right antagonistic to men’s issues, and the rest of feminism for not coming down on their asses. In the same way that I would scold the MRM for not coming down on the asses of the hateful bigots in it’s mist. (Probably mostly because the MRM has driven out anyone and everyone that is moderate).
@Marie
WHO CARES, it was not the point. The point was that she made a bad comparison. This is the kind of shit I was pointing out. “BUT WOMEN HAVE IT WORSE” when it’s not even relevant, or is outright obnoxious, to the discussion. I’m a woman, I know all about experiencing sexism, but I also know that automatically responding “I HAVE IT WORSE” is a great way to shut down discussion as now everyone fights over who, indeed, HAS IT WORSE.
You’re right, maybe calling them “terrible people” is an overstatement. I’ll think about this.
*why I think, not why is think
@anarchonist- excellent post!
@Bon O Bol
You’re talking out your ass.
Bancroft specifically points out in his book that in his work with abusive men that abusive mothers were not a factor but abusive fathers were a huge one. Which is not to say that abusive mothers are not toxic, in deference to you and all the other MRA illogical thinkers, but that they tend to cause different problems. It also is a complete fallacy that men abuse because of a bad childhood or bad experiences with women in the past, but you can read the evidence cited for yourself. Not that I think you would.
Ugh, so sick of people that believe that just because they “think” something it makes it true.