Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men’s Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.
Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,
Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.
In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.
In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes
When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.
It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.
As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.
It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.
In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:
Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.
Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:
Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.
In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.
I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.
Posted on May 6, 2014, in all about the menz, entitled babies, evil women, excusing abuse, father's rights, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, patriarchy, playing the victim and tagged domestic violence, fathers' rights, lundy bancroft, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy. Bookmark the permalink. 630 Comments.
So, lets see what Bancrofts words look like when it’s not phrased as misandric male bashing.
When a PERSON has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing they need is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how they think. Take a PERSON who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the Sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage PEOPLE to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to interpersonal relations.
Well without the bigoted misandric man hate, that is an argument that I can support. Lots of PEOPLE have unhealthy relationship patterns. Lots of philosophies can be twisted to back up the most destructive aspects of dysfunctional relationships. I’m not even going to try to argue that Men’s Rights is some how immune to this. It is not. But neither is any other group organization movement or idea. We see this same thing with Feminism and White Nationalism and Civil Rights (Malcolm X) and LGBT rights and the KKK and intactivists and MRAs and Womens Suffrage and worker rights and environmentalism and every other movement ideology organization or philosophy.
The argument that because MRA philosophies, just like Feminism and envionmentalism, can be twisted into something sick we should shut it down only works if you also want to shut down Feminism and environmentalism and the NAACP and White Nationalism and intactivism.
I’ve had the unfortunate experience of having a friend who has adopted MRA philosophies and is of the opinion feminism is the biased and irrational ideological standpoint. I try to not engage with him on these subjects, because in regards to all other things we largely agree, and as far as I can tell he is a loving father to his new-born daughter and to his wife.
But the couple of times we have locked horns it has been frustrating to the nth degree. Instances where MRAs have been abusive or stalked women, have only been examples of extraneous outliers of the group, and he does not consider them as representative of the group. And instead, he points out how in some Toronto college some feminist counter-protesters started a fight with a group of MRAs as an example of feminist violence, and indicative of how feminists are incapable of engaging in proper discussion to critique their ideology, or that of MRAs.
I tried to show him this blog as an example of MRA critique, but he only seemed to see the articles you posted about MRAs using swear words, and largely dismissed this :/
guh :s
The argument is not that the MRM has valid philosophies that are twisted into something sick, but that the MRM’s core philosophy is already sick.
@GNL
That’s rich. Person-first language used to obscure gender dynamics. You’ll sure get a lot done by ignoring the factor of toxic masculinity in most cases of abuse. /sarcasm
Anyway, shoo.
I’m still not sure if this is bad news (MRAs “recruitment” actually works) or good news (experts are exposing them).
That was in no way misandric or male bashing.
You may be dim enough to buy into your own bullshit, but most people are not.
Fuck off, Gender-Not-So-Neutral Troll.
You’re not even reading. go back to your hole.
Yay! Double blockquote win! In your FACE, Monster!
GNL: Fuck off. You’re a disingenuous fuckwit, and you’re not fooling anyone. It’s in no way “bigoted misandric man hate” (redundant much) to call the MRM what it is: the last refuge of abusive shitstains. Real nice group you’re trying to defend.
GNL,
That’s a pretty sad attempt at false equivalency. Since when do the majority of feminists advocate abuse or promote rape?
Don’t act like virulent misogyny in the MRM is only perpetrated by a few bad apples. Every website, every major figure in the MRM says appalling shit. Can you find me one MRA site that isn’t full of hate?
False equivalency is false.
While this is indeed sad (it certainly makes me fear for those close to MRA members), it isn’t exactly surprising, knowing what I and most others here know of the MRA, and the ideas/values they espouse. :\
@GNL: Of course we want to shut down White Nationalism. Why the hell wouldn’t we? Are you seriously suggesting that White Nationalism isn’t completely horrible?
If you take a movement that is obsessed with blaming and punishing women, it doesn’t promote healthy views of women.
Luckily I’ve never met one of these guys away from my keyboard.
BreakfastMan – yes, GNL is seriously suggesting that very thing. He does not realize how he looks to any reasonable person. He certainly believes that he is, in fact, a reasonable person himself.
Note: if GNL does not, in fact, identify as a man, my apologies for misgendering. The point, however, remains.
He’s got White Nationalism in there with feminism, environmentalism, and the NAACP.
Cute.
Why yes, asshole, as a matter of fact we do want to “shut down” white nationalism–it being, like the MRM, motivated by a sense of aggrieved entitlement and populated largely by bigots.
GNL, he is speaking *specifically* about the men’s rights movement; the websites, etc that he’s talking about encourage attitudes in *men* that can encourage abuse. There is no “gender neutral” way to look at it because it isn’t a gender neutral phenomenon. Feminist sites don’t devote all their energy to demonizing men, nor is there a “matriarchal” movement comparable to the “patriarchal” movements you can find on the tradiditionalist right.
But stating that men are at all capable of doing bad things and that some men do bad things is misandry and man-bashing!
I am also lucky enough not to know any of these assholes in meatspace.
One of these things is not like the others….
@Dave
That’s pretty typical of MRAs. Anytime individual feminists do something bad, or some teenage “social justice warrior” says something mean about men on tumblr, it’s proof all feminism is terrible. Meanwhile every single day this blog tracks a new example of horrible shit MRAs say straight from their websites, including major MRA sites like AVFM and r/mens rights but those are…like…extremists and not true MRAs.
Hmm. I think I slightly overcooked the word “traditionalist” in my last comment.
My stepdad was an abuser who was quite active in the Men’s Rights movement. He authored a booklet called [name of booklet removed by DF as it could be used to ID him] and spent a lot of time in Edmonton (a hub of MRA “activism” here in Canada) with his fellow movement members. He was buds with a man named Mel Feit, who founded the National Center for Men (based out of New York, I think) and who used to appear on talk shows in the 90s in a kilt-as-a-pointed-statement. (We hosted the dude at our house once in his travels. Another story…) He actually was more about activism than the guys you see in the manosphere these days. I remember they did a radio ad for a men’s help line, and there was a bingo fundraiser I was too young at age 12 to help out with.
Anyway, yeah. I mentioned the booklet he wrote (and was super proud of) first because to this day my brothers and I like to bring it up and laugh about the hypocrisy of him parading this pamphlet around and then coming home to beat the shit out of all of us.
Stepdad was an insecure narcissist who needed constant validation and deference. He had a violent, abusive upbringing himself, didn’t know his father, and his mom was an alcoholic. He had that kind of rage-meets-victim-complex that sometimes comes with white male poverty (the frustration of trying to reconcile the wider society’s messages that feed white male privilege and entitlement with circumstances that are often pretty shitty on a personal, individual level). He felt like the world owed him something, essentially, and saw no struggles but his own.
He was quite vain about his intellect, and he was a smart guy. My mom supported us all while he spent his money on books and built himself an impressive library. We lived in public housing, and then rundown market housing while my mom and him both went to school. Our entire income was student loans and money from my mom’s part time jobs.
Some particularly telling things I recall, which I will just leave right here (trigger warnings):
1. My mom was an excellent student and always made straight A’s. Stepdad struggled with some learning disabilities despite his solid grasp of the materials. Once, frustrated with a poor grade of his own, he hid a paper from my mom on the day it was due. He said that she needed to “learn a lesson” because he thought her grades came too easily to her. My mom had to plead for an extension and write a new paper. He never returned the original paper to her.
2. After he graduated (it took him 8 years), Stepdad went to Korea for a year to teach English. When he returned, he would not stop talking about the experience of (his words) being “treated like a god.” He kept telling stories about how respected and worshipped he was, and I’d never seen him happier. Those were the words he used: he was worshipped, he was a god.
3. He finally left my mom when I was 16. My younger brother is his biological son, and was 12 at the time. Stepdad told me and a person we had living with us at the time that my brother did not “deserve a father” because my brother was not as smart as my older brother and me, and that Stepdad felt like he was ripped off to have such a disappointment for a son. He said he’d done “everything he could” with my artistic, lovely, talented little brother and that he’d “turned out” (at age 12) poorly in spite of all of stepdad’s better efforts. He used this “reasoning” to justify leaving and never contacting or financially supporting his son afterwords.
4. Once he told me to do the dishes on a day it was my brother’s turn. I pointed out to him that it was not my turn in a sassy teenage way, and got my head slammed repeatedly against the cabinets for my trouble.
So… supporter of father’s rights. Abandons his son. Writes about husband battery. Beats his wife and kids. Whines about women siphoning off men financially. Spends all his money on himself and was supported for 13 years by my mom. He didn’t even pay rent.
So, yeah. I have a lot of personal experience with MRAs, and the MRA I knew best was abusive. My childhood was FULL of Warren Farrell too.
Lookit a troll.
I don’t think I know anyone who would identify as an MRA using the term, but I’ve known a few who seem to follow the ‘all women are whores unless they sleep with me and only me’ mentality. But I think that’s just general misogyny.
Oh, and GNL, yeah, except for White Nationalism, none of those movements are like the MRM. Those movements are not dominated by hate, that’s a false equivalency. Try harder.
Yeah, see our “gender-neutral” troll, who was the very first to poop on this entry. He thinks feminism = elevating women above men = misaaaaandryyyyyy! And that the MRM on the whole isn’t violent or hateful. Um, what? This entire blog is rife with examples of their violence and hatred. Pick any random entry and you’ll see ample documentation, in the abusers’ lobby/support group’s own rancid, ugly word-turds. They bash women like the Nazis bashed (and still bash) Jews.
If there is any such creature as a moderate MRA, I’d say that’s like finding a moderate Nazi. There is no such creature, unless rainbow-marshmallow-farting unicorns actually exist too.
thefreeair, thanks for your comment. I removed the name of the pamphlet because it could be used to identify your stepdad and (though I believe your story) I don’t feel comfortable with that, as I haven’t verified the info, I don’t know you, etc.
Wow. Just floored by thefreeair’s story. A more classic case of abuser-lobbyism is hard to imagine. Not a bit surprised to learn that the MR(B)M and Warren Farrell were in the mix, either.
“Compassion for men and boys”, huh.
thefreeair ,
I’m so sorry.
Aw, genderneutrallanguage has come back. They should go hang out with Asixpack.
misandric male bashing.
How exactly are Bancroft’s words male-bashing? Because it actually talks about MEN? You really are reaching here.
The argument that because MRA philosophies, just like Feminism and envionmentalism, can be twisted into something sick we should shut it down only works if you also want to shut down Feminism and environmentalism and the NAACP and White Nationalism and intactivism.
Okay. What’s a NON-sick version of MRA philosophies? Please, link us. I really want to know.
RE: WWTH
Since when do the majority of feminists advocate abuse or promote rape?
But consent law is TOTALLY like rape guys! Totally!
RE: BreakfastMan
Of course we want to shut down White Nationalism. Why the hell wouldn’t we?
You noticed that but NOT the KKK? Seriously, GNL really doesn’t seem to realize that some movements are overall douchier than others. For instance, the KKK and Malcom X? Not even remotely comparable. The KKK hanged and terrorized a fucking demographic for a fucking century. Malcom X… tried to organize neighborhood protection when white cops were doing nothing for black folks.
RE: thefreeair
Jesus. I’m sorry your stepdad was such a douchenozzle, and I’m glad he’s no longer a part of your life.
@David, yes probably for the best that you redacted the title. I don’t think it’s still kicking around since it was University published and as far as I remember didn’t hit the internet, but better to be on the safe side.
@Bina and Lea,
Thank you for your thoughts. Fortunately, I’ve been able to move past that period of my life and now I mostly just laugh at MRAs.
@thefreeair
That story is horrifying. I’m sorry all of you had to endure that from him.
And MRAs get all up at feminists for supposedly saying that “women can’t do anything wrong.”
Thank you for sharing your story Freeair.
It’s sad, but not surprising at all unfortunately.
Wow, thefreeair, that must have been terrible. Glad you made it out okay!
Dang, thefreeair, that’s a crazy story. I’m sorry you and your brothers went through that. Your description of your stepdad’s “rage-meets victim complex” is really perceptive.
Welcome, thefreeair, thank you for sharing that.
@thefreeair, I am sorry too…but thanks for sharing your story.
@ genderneutrallanguage – I have to take issue with just about everything you said.
There was nothing misandric about pointing out that many men who have anger and relationship issues, and who subscribe to MRA philosophies, tend to be violent in some way.
Neither Feminism, Environmentalism nor the NAACP advocate stalking, violent language, violent actions, or the removal or civil rights from any one group. MRM’s and MRA’s do, and they are organizations for, by and about MEN. White Nationalism is the same, except they encourage women to hate as much as the men. MRA and White Nationalist philosophies do not have to be “twisted” into something sick. They already ARE sick, in toto.
And I agree with Ally – Shoo.
So sorry to hear about that thefreeair.
(Actually just got back from Edmonton, visiting friends, family and furries. Hi again all.)
@thefreeair
That must have been terrible growing up with such a raging asshole of a stepfather. I am happy to hear that you were able to move on, though :)
I just read Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men last week. I saw my college library had it and blazed through all of it in an afternoon. I found it incredibly enlightening.
I don’t have the book in front of me now, but I recall a section where Bancroft was describing different types of abusers. He called one type “The Victim” – which was partially characterized by believing that men are abused by women more than the reverse and that women control the legal system. For a book that’s twelve years old, what Bancroft described is very close to the beliefs heralded by today’s MRAs.
Welp, a former neighbour of mine likes to insist that feminists have as many violent members as the MRM, but the only example he can point to is Tumblr feminism. He also likes to insist that all the bile-spewing members of the MRM are just outliers, but when I ask him to point me to an MRA space that’s more representative of the movement, I hear crickets.
A former high school friend of mine, same thing basically. He actually did link to a few sites, but one was totally ableist, others were really obscure and didn’t have a following, and the rest didn’t identify as part of the MRM (one, in fact, clearly stated it had nothing to do with the MRM).
Aaannd one of my exes never identified as an MRA but did use eerily similar language at times. Giney tingles (I still shudder in revulsion), alpha this, and had a kind of Nice GuyTM attitude.
RE: Alex
the only example he can point to is Tumblr feminism.
I have pretty low opinions of tumblr, but have any tumblr feminists actually stalked and doxed guys for existing on the Internet? Because that’s something I’ve only seen MRAs do.
I don’t know anyone who identifies as an MRA or their nasty brethren, but I’m afraid my little brother will come under that kind of influence. He’s headed off to university this year, and while I really hope he takes a women’s or gender studies course or at least Soc 101, I really doubt he will, as the rest of my family thinks such courses are, at best, useless. I wish I had more of a relationship with him so I could talk to him about it, but I moved out for university myself when he was in middle school, and every time I came back to visit, it seemed like more and more of my dad’s douchey attitudes about gender roles had rubbed off on him, plus the gross entitlement that comes with being a white, cis, male, athletic, attractive, popular teenager.
I guess I’m partially just bummed because I had high hopes in him for at least one family member who wasn’t a gross, misogynistic, homophobic asshole, and I don’t see that being in the cards so much anymore, but I really do worry about him, too. I just hope he escapes the stew of awful prejudices that he’s been raised to think are normal. *Sigh*
@freetheair – I’m so sorry that you went through all that. Glad you’ve found some closure with it, though!
thefreeair,
Wow. Really sorry you went through that, and thanks for sharing your experience.
RE: dustedeste
If it helps, remember that college isn’t the end of learning. Your brother might change and grow the fuck up.
My brother was a Grade-A asshat throughout his teens… basically the dudebro party jerk stereotype. He took our coming out the worst, and I cut off all contact with him for two years, coming back only after our parents had cut him off and he was depressed and self-medicating with drugs.
Funny, he seemed a lot less douchey to us when we were calling to help him out after that. And he’s one of the two people we still talk to in the family.
Thefreeair, thank you for sharing. I’m sorry you and your family had to deal w/that guy. He sounds awful.
Thank you everyone, for your kind words.
I don’t think of my stepdad often, but now that he’s on my mind, one thing that strikes me is that the language of the movement I grew up with (in the late 90s, early 2000s) was a lot more careful with how it presented itself and the language it used. I think this may be because it wasn’t happening amongst a bunch of anonymous internet tough guys, so the official party line was always “Feminists suck” and never “women suck.”
Of course, the same misogynist messages and motives were behind it all, but the language was very cuddly Warren Farrell and not so much Rage Boner.
I was a budding feminist, but the term was so demonized for me that when I discovered it for myself in University, I was surprised by how non-hateful it was. Whenever I would advance notions of female equality, I was always told I could of course be whatever I wanted to be but gently reminded of my physical limitations (the old, “I’d want a 6 ft, 200lb dude carrying me out of a burning building” bit). For years, even while I had very feminist views, I always called myself a “gender equalitarian” instead of a feminist.
The interesting thing, thinking about PUA/MRA intersection, is that stepdad actually had a lot of old school books on how to pick up women. For all the talk of feminism teaching women to exploit men, it’s pretty clear looking back that he was sticking it out with my mom for room and board while he finished school.
I used to go down to his study and talk to him because I was always reading books from his library and wanted to pick his brain (I think he loved this, because he was never happier then when he was pontificating to a rapt audience). Of course I cut these chats off when he suggested to me, at age 13, that maybe in a few years “if it [didn't] work out with [my mom]” he and I could get together. Of course, he made sure to emphasize that it would be after I turned 18, so I guess he thought he wasn’t being a total creep about.
My only brush with real life MRAs wasn’t even a real MRA. My friend’s boyfriend wanted to get into men’s issues stuff (like, real men’s issues) and mentioned that he’d seen some MRA stuff and was interested. I sent him a link to AVFM with no commentary added, and he messaged me back: “This looks like a hate group.” That was all it took to scare him off the misters.
ohmydog! ohmydog! All the ick.
On another note, @cassandrakitty bait.
I also read Mr. Bancroft’s book and found it very informative and fascinating. It puts many puzzle pieces together and debunks the many myths about what “causes” angry, controlling, and abusive men. It also exposes their excuses and justifications for what they are, BS.
Highly recommend, in fact, I gave copies to my 20-something daughters.
I hear so much of my sadistic and extremist father in the crap that the MRAs peddle that I would swear that he wrote their handbook for them. I haven’t seen him in 35 years, which shows that the twisted mindset they share is nothing new. Fortunately, my husband of 27 years is nothing like them, and for that I’m thankful.
Omg, thefreeair, that is sick and horrifying!
Re: LBT
Yeah, I hope he can get better, but I’m not depending on it. I’ve seen people get better about their bigotry, but I just feel like it’s foolish to count on it at this point. I just really want to have someone in the family that I can be pansexual, capitalism-critical, socially-liberal, feminist, atheist me around without any qualms, but it just feels like I’m doomed to make awkward smalltalk about the weather with all my relatives forever because everything interesting will unleash a torrent of hatred and gross opinions about how the gender wage gap doesn’t exist and there’s no such thing as racism anymore :/
(At least little bro doesn’t buy into the post-racial America thing; he’s got my back there, at least. For now, at any rate.)
@cloudiah: As another metal-head and lover of cats, I was super-disappointed that the previews did not include a picture Rob Halford, Abbath, Ozzy Osbourne, or Scott Ian with a kitty. I feel ripped-off, I tell you! D:
@thefreeair: Um, okay, wow. That is creepy as shit, even for MRAs. Most MRAs don’t usually sink to the depths of pedophilia and incest. D:
My dad has been a douche his entire life, as long as I’ve known him at least. He truly is a person with some good intentions, but serious social issues that have led him to have very few close relationships, and a complete inability to manage personal relationships. There were incidences of physical violence against me, my siblings, and my mom. Not stuff that left us with bruises, but enough that the police were called once. It was a constant them of my childhood, my dad’s changing moods and the constant intimidation he tried to impose. I have no idea why my mother married him, but I save it had to do with self-worth issues and also her beliefs in “traditional gender roles” and habits of saying things like, “I know men and women are equal, but the bible says the man is the head of the household- but not in a bad way!” and such bullshit.
Come to find out, when I took gender studies classes, they mentioned the 90s MRA movement, wherein men would go on “man retreats” and beat drums in the woods and such. This rang a bell to me, I mentioned it to my mom, and sure enough…
I’m sure if my dad was tech savvy enough to use reddit, he would agree with a ton of stuff on the MRA reddit. Its perfect for him bc he continues to insist that he was a victim of the divorce, it was all my mom’s fault, and that his children’s issues with him are a result of their own emotional/relationship issues rather than his, despite the fact that all of us have many close relationships and he has none, save with his mother. Anyway, it was a HORRIBLE way to grow up and I think is the main reason it’s hard for me to let go in romantic relationships. If I ever felt like a dude I was seeing was even vaguely getting into that shit, I would end things so fucking fast, there would be no pause on my part. The emotional manipulation and selfishness advocated by those groups is fucking disgusting, and I saw and let firsthand the effect of it on the people he was close to. I dont think MRA is the cause of it, but I have no doubt it exacerbates issues people already have, and can give them a sense of validation which makes true self-evaluation and compromise on their part impossible.
A lot of people have told me about Bancroft’s book, and now I’m interested in reading it. My abusive dad isn’t one to identify with any political label, but his views about marriage were (and probably still are) very similar to those of FRAs. I feel that reading it would help me cope with the emotional abusive treatment I’ve received from various men, especially my father. If I can only find a PDF… X_X
@ cloudiah
@thefreeair Thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s always nice to hear something from the inside.
Reading the comments folk have made about their stepdads got me to thinking of mine. I had two, since my mother married three times. The first was stern and not above using a fraternity paddle on our bare butts when we were kids and I really hated him. But the second was a wonderful man. He taught me to ride a bike and he was always there when we needed him.
I used to go camping with him in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. We would stop and listen to men and women playing guitars and singing Appalachian folk songs, which inspired me to become a folksinger for many years. We also walked in the woods and recited poetry.
I long to go down to the seas again
To the lonely sea and the sky
And all I ask is a tall ship
And a star to steer her by.
John Masefield, one of dads favorite poets. I never saw him again after the divorce when I was twelve, but I will always remember him warmly. Hope that wherever he is, alive or not, he is happy.
I just realized that I had intended to post my last post on the “When stepfathers abuse…” page. Sorry about that.
The “rage-meets-victim-complex” you described sounds EXACTLY like my abusive ex. He always had really grandiose expectations about how successful, respected and powerful he should be, but no real way of meeting those expectations (he was technically homeless for most of our relationship).
That sounds a lot like my dad. Just thinking about how he treats me makes me feel ill. He’s so toxic that even after moving 2000 miles away from him he manages to manipulate me.
I feel trapped and afraid whenever he’s around. He knows exactly how to manipulate me and guilt-trip me until I start crying. I feel for anyone else who has had to deal with men like him. It’s like a nightmare sometimes.
FTFY
Personally I love the MRA boards and MRM discussions, as well as the MGTOW movement. My whole life i have felt that being a man had nothing to do with how well I was liked by women, how much money I made or how well I treated my children. Yet every where I turned I was reminded to be good to women (irrelevant of how they treated me) make enough money to be an eligilbe male suitable to care for a woman, and be a great and supportive role model for your kids. I felt I needed confirmation that it was okay to share my feelings openly etc. I surrounded myself with women my whole life in hopes of finding that space and it wasn;t until I joined a mens group that I actually found my voice. There is something very different about communing with men, being around others who share the same frustrations and joys. Being a man and having men’s issues is a totally separate issue from womens issues, there will undoubtedly be some overlap, but men are allowed to have their issus and alot of them are actually valid. Some men choose to become angry and spew hate, but that is how those individuals choose to deal with their pain. That doesn;t mean the whole movement is flawed or in some way corrupt. Individuals have choices and can decide for themselves what is valid and what isnt. I am not interested in militarizing my male rights. I am also not interested in blindly treating women like lost puppies. I would like to find a happy medium where I can be wlecome by women and express my frustrations as a man. What is wrong with that?
It would appear that it is not okay for men to reject this society, it is not okay for men to want to break traditional roles and discuss issues that are relevant to their own experiences. that is sad to me, I can see here that it is not ok for men to have their own feelings and emotions that may run counter to women;s beliefs. And if they are allowed it’s only because it has been vetted by the strong arm of the anti MRA gang. I find that sad and destructive.
We love to talk about angry men, violent men. We hate talking about how that man became angry. If we do it’s because of an abusive stepfather or father, never an abusive mother. We say that he should be in better control of himself, but we never say that boy maybe a product of his mums vicious beatings. Even though domestic violence is a genderless crime all we ever hear about or see is the male side. That is really unfair. Especially when the vast majority of domestic abuse occurs at the hand of the mother.
I am a single dad, I date women regularly. I am appalled at how many women conduct themselves, their expectations etc… but that doesn’t mean that all women who are date eligible are dumb abd stupid moneygrubbers. It just means that there are a a certain percentage of women who are. Its the same for men. Not all men are as you describe them, when you stop pigeonholing us you might actually find some of what we are saying holds some value.
I find that many of the comments on this board are just as ignorant as many of the comments on the MRA boards and the feminist boards, it goes to show you that stupidity and ignorance and small mindedness are not specific to one gender or belief.
@gnl – “if you also want to shut down Feminism and environmentalism and the NAACP and White Nationalism and intactivism.”
Ummm, no. It’s a false equivalency.
Also, shutting down White Nationalism sounds like a good thing, to me.
As for intactivism, I’m off to the dictionary for that one. I have no idea.
AH! OK, it’s about circumcision.
I see no medical benefits, whatsoever, to female genital mutilation or “female circumcision,” but there are a slew of dangerous effects. Male circumcision is problematic, in that it does appear to have some medical benefits. Whether those medical benefits outweigh the negatives, I could not say. It seems to be a topic of much debate in the medical world.
If I had my wish, I would make the procedure available to any adult male who wanted it done, with fully informed consent.
It *IS* a sticky wicket, though, since freedom of religion is an American constitutional right, and coming from a heritage of a people whose religious rights were trampled by that government, I don’t want that government to trample anyone else’s religious rights.
I wonder if we could convince the religious leaders of the various sects that require circumcision to come to an agreement that the ordinance/sacrament/whatever they call it be delayed until the person reaches maturity and can give proper consent. I doubt it, but hey, It’s 3 o’clock in the morning, and I can wish, right?
On that note, off to bed.
Why did I keep reading?
Thefreeair – I have no words. That is just gut-wrenching. I’m so sorry you had to go through that, and your poor brother! Jedi hugs to all of you!
And now I really have to shut down and get off-line before I get really depressed. Wow.
I’m always baffled at how people like genderneutrallanguage see the world. “Misandric male bashing?” Where? Are these people seeing random commas in all the wrong places? So, instead of seeing “men who are abusive often do X”, they see “men, who are abusive, often do X”. Is that what it’s about? Random comma syndrome? It certainly fits in with the rest of the punctuation fails that plague the MRM.
But yeah, genderneutrallanguage, what others have said. You can’t make an issue gender neutral if it really, really, really isn’t. Acknowledging the fact that men in general are more violent than women in general isn’t male bashing; it’s acknowledging that we, as men, are socially conditioned to solve our problems with violence. It’s harmful to us, sure, but it’s more harmful to women, who are discouraged from answering violence with violence. Toxic masculinity is the fallout of a patriarchal society, which is part of the reason why feminism opposes patriarchal beliefs. Domestic violence is a particularly ugly form of violence rooted in male entitlement, the belief that a man owns his wife and children. No comparable “female entitlement” exists, no matter how much MRAs like to twist and turn reality to fit their ideology.
It’s nice to think that we’re all equal, and should all just be gender equalists instead of feminists. It’s comforting to think there is no behaviour that hurts primarily one gender. It is, as you should know by now, untrue. You can’t pretend society is ideologically neutral and that only random individuals who actively embrace an ideology cause trouble in this otherwise fair and just word. White male supremacism, capitalism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression hurt people who are not part the group those ideologies are promoting, and only by actively opposing the ideas that are so deeply ingrained in our consciousness that we see them as ‘neutral’ and ‘default’ can we slowly start making things more equal.
I’ve said it before, but neutrality is not another word for objectivity. Being objective requires you to see why in certain situations, the playing field is not level. Treating it like it was level is not a sign of objectivity, but of willful disregard of facts.
Kinda like claiming domestic violence is gender neutral.
OT about random commas: best I ever saw was a personal ad from an English paper decades ago. “Housekeeper wanted. Non-smoking cat, lover mandatory.”
I’d love to know if the position was filled.
long time lurker whom all of you regular commenters have helped so much. delurking because of a huge ping – this site has a post about Lundy Bancroft’s work! It’s like one big vegemite and haloumi cheese sandwich popping out of my internets for midnight snacks :)
LBs book gave me the explanations and reason to extricate myself from abusive ex – garden variety, textbook case. the police were extremely aware, helpful and thankfully effective in facilitating this. Lundy has my profound, effusive thanks for lifting the curtain on the smoke and mirrors. And so do you, Dave, for keeping the spotlight on them with even the odd snorty laugh to be had among the churning crud. My ex went on to actively espouse and promote many MRA views, loudly and uncharacteristically actively, to anyone he knew that knew me and would listen – because I’d ‘made him that way’.
after the purchase of a new irony meter with a better warranty (look what you made me do!), I can only conclude that the MRA provides a focal point for those chaps who actually experience repercussions for being abusive. as LB points out, until very recently there have generally been very few for them, let alone legal ones. I think MRA platforms just gave my ex the words and the support to articulate what he’d always believed, only he’d never had to seek them out amongst dissenting voices before. and that actually gives me hope, because they’re unlikely to change but at least they’re all seething in one pit.