Check out my interview about the dreaded Friend Zone on Amanda Marcotte’s Reality Check Podcast
Like video games, the friend zone is not real.
If you missed my talk at Northwestern on the Friend Zone, and most of you did, I go over a lot of what I said in it in my interview with Amanda Marcotte here. My segment of the podcast starts about 8 minutes in. (The rest of the podcast is interesting, too.)
The one thing missing from the podcast that my talk had was … a gazillion terrible Friend Zone memes to illustrate all my points. So here are a couple of the ones I refer to in the interview.
Posted on April 29, 2014, in entitlement, evil sexy ladies, friend zone, misogyny, nice guys, rape culture and tagged amanda marcotte, feminism, friend zone, misogyny, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 425 Comments.
Good podcast, David!
FYI, that “dinosaur philosopher” is called “philosoraptor” :-)
If the friendship is not itself THE benefit, then you’re in a world of hurt. And yeah, shitty consolation prize is shitty. Honestly, how DID I get over the fact that the guy I loved was gay? And how are we still the best of friends today?
Y’know, the one time I’ve something described as “friend zoning” actually being that was on Regular Show. Mordecai really is a nice guy; he never acted like he was entitled to Margaret. He knew the main problem was he couldn’t work up the nerve to tell Margaret how he felt.
I’m glad to see “nice guys” are being taken apart here and there in media. Speaking of, I wonder how many guys took Zoller’s side in InGlorious Basterds?
I’m sorry David, but you got something wrong: Video games are most certainly real. It’s the events that are in them that aren’t.
But seriously, good podcast.
Great interview, David.
Great podcast, although for some reason I thought your voice would be a bit different. =P
http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2615
I am ALWAYS for taking apart “nice” guys and the friendzone. ALWAYS.
Dave, thanks for the link to the comic. It should be posted in college dorms everywhere.
Well, my younger sibling is asexual, and I’m pretty sure this is how zie imagines the friendzone. Especially the trampoline bit.
THAT COMIC! YES!
The friend-zone sounds like the best thing ever, now. Yay for trampolines!
Love Marcotte :)
Instead of calling so-called nice guys “losers” and potential rapists because women don’t want to date them and they feel frustrated about it, why not offer positive suggestions on how they can become men women do want to date?
It’s not feminism’s job to make you a better, more fuckable man. But I suppose they (you?) could start by actually listening to women (or our allies, in this case) when they talk, so you don’t end up doing obnoxious shit like ignoring the actual rapey language and entitlement problems inherent in the “friendzone” meme and pretend we’re just being meanies for no reason. Or at least listen to the goddamn podcast before you comment on it. Women (like most people) don’t like it when you argue against shit they never even said.
@racnad
Because I don’t care about teaching men to become better dates*. Not everything is about trying to get men laid ^u^
*I do care that they become better people but 1) I’m not interested in teaching men who are put off by me not holding their hands and 2) it shouldn’t be my job to fucking teach them.
Hey Racnad
D’you really think it’s up to women to tell men not to be predators?
D’you really think that if a dude is pestering me – a dude I have no interest in and never will – that I am required to tell him how to become attractive? Because he WON’T. It wouldn’t matter if he turned into a genuinely nice person, I’m not interested in him.
Piss off with your notions of men having to be given lessons in how to treat women as actual human beings.
Ditto to everyone, but especially emilygoddess. Feminism is overflowing with “how not to be a creep” advice if you were actually interested in learning what women as a group tend to be negatively affected by (as opposed to women as a hivemind all being attracted to).
But if you expect feminism to be about instructing you specifically on how to get laid, you are missing the point big time.
Racnad: why on Earth should feminists tell you how to get a date? It’s on you to become the the kind of person another would want to spend time with.
Racnad,
This isn’t an advice column, but I can tell you that the fact you told us what to do and had an entitled attitude is pretty off putting.
Emily, I actually did listen to the webcast and it was not so bad. What I was commenting on was the notion in general that any man who uses the term “friendzone” to express his difficulties with women feels entitled to have sex with whomever he wishes and somehow endorses rape. This is what I meant by calling them losers. More often they are just men who are seen as less desirable by women because of poor social skills, they are less good looking, or they aren’t the dreamy-eyed hunks that many women feel more attracted to. Yes there are some men who just want to get laid and don’t give a crap about women as people, but to stereotype all men who have dating difficulties in this way is just as bad as stereotyping women as gold-diggers or sluts.
I know this isn’t a dating advice blog, but why this hostility toward the idea of advising men or how to become the kind of men women want to date, have relationships with or have sex with? It would seem the result would be a win-win – fewer frustrated men and fewer creeps to harassing women.
@racnad
Ah, our most boring troll.
No, they’re seen as less desirable because they’re fucking misogynists. GOod god.
omigod. omigod. omigod. Is racnad real?
*singsong voice* I doon”t give a fuuuccck about whether men get daatteees ^u^
If you only want to not be a shithead to get dates, you are a terrible person :3
hrovitner,
Where is the useful advice on how to avoid being a creep? Like it or not, the definition of creepy behavior varies from woman to women and with each women it varies according to who the man is. The only certain way a man can avoid being perceived as creep is to avoid expressing any romantic interest in women unless she has made an unambiguous first move. But like it or not most women expect the man to make the first move, which means there is always the risk of being perceived as creepy, since men are not mind readers. You might say “pay attention to non-verbal signals.” This is good advice but these vary from woman to woman. Women who have outgoing personalities can send signals that are easily misinterpreted as romantic interest, while a very reserved woman might send no interest signals at all, causing man who might be interested in her to not make a move because he believes she’s not interested. Sure, there are certain behaviors what most women find creepy and those should be avoided, but any man who’d like to have girlfriend needs to take this risk from time to time that his expression of interest might not be welcome. And if he isn’t the type of man considered attractive by a large percentage of women, then he has a larger risk of being perceived as creepy as a man who is seen as attractive by a large percentage of women. This is the point missed by feminists when they complain about creeps and the concept of friendzone.
Marie, are you capable of intelligent conversion or only name-calling?
Because only “hunks” have relationships and sex. That was sarcasm, in case Racnad is too dense.
The problem with guys who complain about the friendzone is that they expect sex and/or romance in exchange for performing niceness and make misogynistic remarks about women for the perceived affront of not returning the attraction.
Nobody is making fun of all men who are seeking a relationship and haven’t been able to find it.
The post was about men who respond to rejection with misogyny. Not men who can’t get dates.
This site is about mocking misogyny. This site is not about relationship advice.
What the everloving fuck is this? You are implying that women are to blame for harassment because we don’t want to have sex with or date them. No. Just no. Men shouldn’t harass women because harassment is wrong. We aren’t responsible for alleviating men’s frustrations so they don’t abuse us. They are responsible for their own behavior.
You also shouldn’t assume that creepers and harassers are all incels. That isn’t necessarily true. Men who harass are doing it because they like to assert power over others. Not because they’re sexually frustrated.
@racnad
wow can you say wall of text?
I’ll give you a hint. 1) google 2) respect people’s boundries.
wrong. BUT
if you do not know how to approach a woman without being creepy.
DO NOT.
It’s that simple.
Citation needed. (on women wanting men to approach. Not men not being mind readers. Duh)
Troll to english translation: Sure, there are certain behaviors most women find creepy and those behaviors should be avoided, BUT THEN MEN WON’T BE GETTING LAID SUCH TERRIBLE!
Nope. I’m not sure why little fuckwads like you are so convinced it’s your looks, and not your terrible personalities.
Is your ass jealous of the shit that comes out of your mouth?
@racnad
aww, the troll doesn’t like me :3
Read the title of the site. I’m here to MOCK misogyny, not carefully debate it.
Does What It Says On the Tin.
It is not part of feminism’s brief to help men get laid. That is not a bug, it’s a feature. Many men who are not ‘dreamy-eyed hunks’ have happy and healthy relationships with women. Mostly by being happy and healthy themselves, to begin with. It CAN be done.
ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh my god racnad why are you acting like being read as a creepy by the people you are being creepy towards is the most horrible thing on earth?
Racnad,
All you have to do is respect a woman’s “no.” That’s it. That’s why we “complain about the concept of the friendzone.” Because it doesn’t.
” I’m here to MOCK misogyny, not carefully debate it.”
Thank you for clarifying your motivation. I’ve looked at this site, and the misogyny described does indeed exist. The infamous meme referring to a “rapezone” is indeed misogynist because no one deserves to be raped for any reason.
But what I’m seeing is that the small number of misogynists on the web and the feminists angry about the word “freindzone” are opposite sides of the same coin. They’ve taking a word that humorously referred to unrequited love and redefined it as meaning “any woman I like is obligated to have sex with me!” I have never believed that and no one I know has thought that way. Where is the evidence that very many people using this term are thinking of the feminist definition? Feminists promoting this definition are claiming to be mind readers by proclaiming that anyone using this word is also using their definition.
One more comment:
“Citation needed. (on women wanting men to approach. Not men not being mind readers. Duh)”
If you need a citation confirming that men are generally expected to do the asking out, then you are either ignorant or in denial of how dating as worked in western culture for decades.
I’ve said my peace, now I’ll let the angry misogynists and angry misandrists continue to take pot shots at each other.
@racnad
cute. You still need a citation :3
Lol misandry don’t real.
See, when those guys who refer to the friendzone, also whine about how girls only date douches, or that he’s done everything he could and she still thinks of him as ‘just a friend’
he is a misogynist.
it’s not just unrequited love. It’s whining that you’re only friends with a girl. Because you don’t give a fuck about her friendship. It’s just some cruddy consolation prize.
Peace~ ^u^
Also, racnad, I didn’t want a citation that men are expected to ask women out, in soceity, I wanted one that MOST WOMEN expected it. Because most implies, like almost all. There a difference between, say half of women thinking men should ask women out, and the other half thinking it doesn’t matter, and 90% of women thinking men should ask women out.
But this really isn’t a point I feel like arguing.
Also, I don’t expect men to ask me out because I don’t want to date any fucking men. And there are other women who don’t want to either.
LOL, racnad, umad?
Waaaa, I hate that women are human beings as complex and fickle as men, waaaaa!
Patriarchy has socialized most of the women I’m interested in into believing than men are the only ones with agency and so they won’t ask me out! Damn you feminists! Waaaaa!
This gif is also strangely appropriate: http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5381/assholefairy.jpg
Racnad’s going to flounce instead of addressing my point about his blaming of harassment victims?
Oh well. Boring flounce 1/10.
@weirdwoodtreehugger
He’s flouncing instead of addressing your points? I act surprised. XD
“All you have to do is respect a woman’s “no.” That’s it”
When I was dating, I found it was actually rare for a woman to say no. More often is was something like “That sounds like fun, but I’m busy this weekend. Maybe another time,” which left me trying to figure out if this meant she wasn’t interested, or that it sounded like fun to her but she was busy that weekend and would like to go out another time.
It was explained to me that women felt an ambiguous answer was more “nice” and less likely to hurt a guys feelings, but when I was actually told “no,” or “No. thank you” as a softer but till clear message, I respected them for it.
@racand
Wow way to stick to the flounce.
Wait, you’ve realised women are socialized to let men down gently? SAY IT ISN’T SO.
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????
Man, I’m inclined to tell our trollboy ‘fuck you’ but I can’t put my finger on why. Anyone got an idea?
Aah, poor @racnad can’t understand a soft “no” from a woman and can’t possibly ask for clarification when in doubt.
“See, when those guys who refer to the friendzone, also whine about how girls only date douches, or that he’s done everything he could and she still thinks of him as ‘just a friend’
he is a misogynist. ”
That doesn’t mean he’s a misogynist, that means he hasn’t learned that simply being nice does not trigger romantic attraction in women, and that many women will date douches if there’s something about him that triggers romantic attraction.
” I don’t expect men to ask me out because I don’t want to date any fucking men.”
That is your personal business and that is fine.
If a man gets angry at you because you don’t want to date or have sex with him then that man may be a misogynist and is definitely an asshole.
But that doesn’t justify making sweeping generalizations about men who use a word you’ve redefined for them.
that is a no, dipshit.
-1/10 on the flounce.
…
a guy who thinks you can put niceness coins into a girl and sex will fall out is a misogynist.
tl;dr version of racnad ” I put the nice in the woman vending machine and she not sex me? That is not misogynistic view to have! ps people think i’m a creep because i am a creep”
@racnad
Wow. No. You do not understand.
Him thinking being nice to women should trigger romantic attraction, and that women date douches makes him a misogynist. It’s like you’re trying to argue that water isn’t wet if it tells me it’s not.
Wow. The irony. Troll boy doesn’t like people making sweeping generalizations about men :’)
“Racnad’s going to flounce instead of addressing my point about his blaming of harassment victims?”
I never blamed harassment victims. Express disappointment of unreturned attraction by using a term referring to an early-1960s TV show is not harassment. The notion that anyone using the term believes any women they like is obligated to have sex with them is not backed up with any evidence. Some immature guys may use it that way but you are over-generalizing.
@racnad
Wow the contradiction I am amazed.
“When I was dating, I found it was actually rare for a woman to say no. More often is was something like “That sounds like fun, but I’m busy this weekend. Maybe another time,” which left me trying to figure out if this meant she wasn’t interested, or that it sounded like fun to her but she was busy that weekend and would like to go out another time.
that is a no, dipshit.”
No, that is a “white lie” but still a lie which teaches men to not take what women tell them at face value and places the burden on them to figure out if the woman he’s talking to is being truthful or not. What’s wrong with honesty in relationships?
b/c men harrass women for saying a straight no. every time i said “no” to a guy who asked me out i was bullied for months afterwards.
Sheesh “women tell white lies b/c men flip out at the truth OBVIOUSLY THIS IS WOMEN’S FAULT”.
@Racnad
You little fuck. You don’t blame women for lying to men when some men get violent when rejected more harshly.
But hey, masplain to us about how we’re imagining it again.
*mansplain
Well, that’s true. Good thing none us ever said that.
We can still not like the “evil friendzoning woman” construct though. The whole BS existed long before the term ever did.
“Him thinking being nice to women should trigger romantic attraction, and that women date douches makes him a misogynist. It’s like you’re trying to argue that water isn’t wet if it tells me it’s not”
Are you saying there are not a lot of women who date douches? Not all women date douches, but there is no shortage complaints from women about boyfriends who are substance abusers, verbally abusive, or cheat on them.
@Racnad
Good god you are terrible. Please stick to the flounce.
Also, you don’t blame women for dating abusive people, jackass. you blame the abusers.
Did you take a course in how to be horrible, or is it natural to you?
Gosh, I can’t figure out why women are afraid to be more assertive when a man they don’t know well (or at all) propositions them. Hmmm…
Seriously, racnad. Your entire beef is with the blow back you are getting from the Patriarchy. What you fail to understand is that the dynamic that mildly annoys and inconveniences you literally terrifies, maims and murders women daily.
something racnad would benefit from reading what self proclaimed nice guys sound like to everyone else
@racnad
Also, most men don’t introduce themselves “hey, I”m X and I’m abusive” Good god.
OMG. Way to prove the point you think you’re arguing against.
“men harrass women for saying a straight no. every time i said “no” to a guy who asked me out i was bullied for months afterwards.”
Then he’s an asshole and he would have been an asshole regardless of what you told him.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
wow.
thank you for explaining to me my own experiences, racnad. i was totally unenlightened by the fact that he was an asshole, and also the fact that he objected to the “rudeness” of my plain no. but no clearly you were there and know exactly how he would’ve reacted if i’d given him a white lie
Racnad,
You said that if we spend our time teaching men to be attractive to women they wouldn’t be sexually frustrated and harass women. You put the burden of avoiding harassment on us instead of the harassers.
As for the soft no, women are socialized to be nice and go out of our way to not hurt feelings. It is also common for direct nos to be met with harassment and abuse. Both those things are the result of patriarchy, not feminism. Grow up and learn to live with the soft no. Women have the right to put their personal safety first.
racnad said this:
The term “friendzone” being used to mean “disappointment at not getting sex form a woman a man is being nice too” is not backed up by any evidence and most people don’t use the term “friendzone” to mean that.
But before that, racnad said:
“He hasn’t learned that simply being nice does not trigger romantic attraction in women….”
Dude. That is the very definition of “friendzone” and is misogynistic.
Add to that the “many women will date douches,” because, of course, the proper judge if whether or not a woman’s current date/significant other/love interest is a douche is some other guy who wants to get in her pants.
And, of course, the whole toxic “only unattractive men are called creepy and the same behavior from an attractive man wouldn’t be creepy” and the underlying “women like douches” theme.
@ racnad
Asshole guy: Date me!
Woman: (I should say no nicely, he seems a little dangerous.) That sounds like fun, but maybe another time…
racnad: WHITE LIES!
Woman: Uh, I mean no, but thank you.
Asshole guy: How dare you say no to me!
Woman: (frightened, better tell him what he wants to hear) I mean, okay, maybe once?
racnad: Why do women only date assholes?!
@fromafar
But racnad’s totally not a misogynist though!
“Also, you don’t blame women for dating abusive people, jackass. you blame the abusers.”
I do blame the abusers, but a women in an abusive relationship is 50% of the relationship, and if she’s had more than one abusive relationship needs to examine why she picks abusive men.
Just like men who complain about the friendzone need to examine why they find themselves in that positions. Saying “women only date jerks” is just as shortsighted and wrong as “all men are jerks”.
Placing all the blame on the other gender is never the right answer.
placing all the blame on the abuser *is* the right answer
needs to examine why she picks abusive men
needs to examine why she picks abusive men
needs to examine why she picks abusive men
needs to examine why she picks abusive men
@racnad
Kiddo, you can say you blame the abusers all you want, but the rest of the words are proving the opposite.
Wow and now you compared (whether you meant to or not) friendzoning to abuse. You are a terrible person.
taking racnad’s logic and applying it elsewhere…
murderer in court “your honor, i know i killed someone, but it takes two people to murder! one to do the murdering and one to get murdered. in that way, it was 50% their fault. they should think about why they hang out with murderers, anyway”
Everyone has already pointed this out, but women are expected to care more about men’s feelings than their own and to “soften the blow.” And some men react very very badly (like, scary/violent) to being told “no.” So that is both socialization and self-preservation. Don’t like it? Then start working to make sure women can say “no” safely and that those “no’s” are heard and respected. Like feminists are doing.
And there’s that “women like asshole bad boys” shot again.