A Great Male Human Being: A Voice for Men remembers Nelson Mandela, in its inimitable way

Apparently some of the folks at A Voice for Men are afraid that, amidst all the eulogies for one of the greatest freedom fighters of our age, people may lose sight of the fact that Nelson Mandela was, in fact, a man. Not a man in the fallible human being sense, as he was and all of us are, but a man in the not a lady sense.

So AVFM Managing Editor Dean Esmay felt it necessary to remind the world of this fact:

A great male human being, a great unbending unyielding nonviolent human rights activist, and an inspiration.

The Horseless Hun decided to rub it in a bit:

Yet another masculine man, yes a male, someone of that evil, inferior sex (which is upon reflection oddly enough the same sex so many women have had something of an obsession with imitating, or rather trying to imitate, in twisted ways) passes into the annals of history. Without doubt up there in that legendary ether where all the great men of history reside.

Kukla, meanwhile, wasn’t all that impressed.

Meh, don’t really care much for him.

This, again, is a site that thinks of itself as the locus of the “Men’s Human Rights Movement.” It’s  also a place where the death of a real human rights icon becomes just another excuse to talk shit about women.

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Posted on December 6, 2013, in a voice for men, all about the menz, are these guys 12 years old?, Dean Esmay, evil women, men created civilization, men who should not ever be with ponies ever, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, narcissism, racism and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 120 Comments.

  1. “It is merely an exceptional case of an inherently positive attribute (positive because male aggression is glorified by the patriarchy) ascribed to men being seen in a more negative light.”

    Negative? Only in part. It’s also a convenient excuse for aggressive behavior towards women and “lesser” classes of men.

  2. And the idea that “men can’t multi-task” is based on the assumption that men aren’t like women, who are naturally inclined to do mother-like things, one of which is multi-tasking.

    Yeah that’s one of them .Except they don’t say men CAN’T multi task .Really there is nothing a woman can do that a man cant . Its just women are “better at it.” And yes that’s supposedly the reason she can juggle the crying baby ,while making him a sandwich ,while doing a load of laundrey while talking on the phone.

    But the fact of the matter is women are not better at multi tasking than men .All people are better at focussing one task at a time period. And there is nothing about the female that makes her any more succesful in trying to juggle several task “at once” .Its not even a sensible term .It more like rapidly moving from one task to another .

  3. Negative? Only in part. It’s also a convenient excuse for aggressive behavior towards women and “lesser” classes of men.

    They want to claim sexual aggresiveness as a masculine trait and women are “passive and submissive” because that makes them feel ‘manly.” Like the conqueror in a ‘good way.” “Me man you woman.”

    But its funny when it comes to aggression in the form of violence suddenly women are “just as violent as men.”

  4. To be fair, I say “men are pigs” all the time, but only when I’m stuck cleaning up after them (*is the only woman in the household, and all the men work shift, which somehow means they can’t help with household chores, or yardwork*). I say “women are slobs” if I’m stuck cleaning up after a bunch of women.

  5. But the fact of the matter is women are not better at multi tasking than men .All people are better at focussing one task at a time period

    Oh, I was just referencing that stereotype, not saying that I believe it. =P

  6. But anyway yeah . Its pretty pathetic they need to say a “great male human being.” Isn’t that a little childish ? And like David pointed out as if their is a shortage of male heroes who have received acknowledgement though out history .Like it needs to be noted hes a “male human.”

    Its one thing to say “he was a great man.” But isn’t “male human being ” a little obvious that he is using this great mans accomplishments and his sacrifices to make some sort of jab at women ? I think the great “male human being” Mr. Mandela would not be impressed with that.

  7. Oh, I was just referencing that stereotype, not saying that I believe it. =P

    Oh I know (I assumed anyway) I was just taking your thought and running with it .LOL!!

  8. I want to know too ..how do women try to imitate “men” ?

    And as someone else pointed out if those same women think of men as evil and inferior ,why in the hell would they want to try and imitate them ?

  9. I wonder if Nelson Mandela liked to look at landscape photography, that being a thing male human beings like to do and all.

  10. LOL, katz!

    How’ve you been? I haven’t seen you post for a few days.

  11. “There are white people who AREN’T?”

    Well….yeah.

    Got to disagree with you, there. There are plenty of white people trying their damnedest to be aware of their white privilege and to not just not be actively racist but to be positive allies to PoC. But when you live and were raised in a racist society as a member of the privileged race, you absorb racism with the air you breathe and it is there in assumptions you don’t even realise you make.

    And for racism within feminism, just follow any of the discussions on intersectionality and see for yourself how bad it can be.

  12. I’m fine. Got a houseguest.

  13. Cool, hope you’re having fun!

  14. And for racism within feminism, just follow any of the discussions on intersectionality and see for yourself how bad it can be.

    Ugh, remember the “It’s the intersection of white skin and gender!” conversation? Ye gods.

  15. I don’t remember that and I’m afraid to ask …

  16. Hi, Philippe Saner, have an Official Complimentary Welcome Package!

    Thank you very much.

    …when you live and were raised in a racist society as a member of the privileged race, you absorb racism with the air you breathe and it is there in assumptions you don’t even realise you make.

    I don’t think you have to belong to a privileged race for that to happen. To quote a Tumblr post…

    …in my country that is dominated by USA culture and entertainment, I’ve seen CHILDREN that dislike their own brown bodies because they cannot connect with the characters that appear on TV. Kids whose whole family is of color, the majority of their friends, and the majority of their country, feel like they are not worthy. This not only affects the way white people have no empathy for people of color (which is obvious just by looking at how they disregard our complaints as exaggerations), but how much empathy people of color in the USA and even other countries with a brown majority, feel towards themselves.

  17. Moma Sita?

  18. @Philippe, the impact of racism making a child of colour feel crap about themselves and their race is not exactly comparable to a white person being unconscious of their privilege. The former is someone being oppressed, the latter is someone being so accustomed to being a member of the oppressing class that they don’t even notice when they are enablers of the oppression.

  19. For a moment there until I scrolled further up I thought Moma Sita was back. So relieved she’s not.

  20. True.

    It’s still a real shame when victims of oppression absorb the ideals of their victimization.

  21. RE: Sir Bodsworth

    I faked being sick to get out of school and took off to see it.

    That is the best reason to cut school ever.

    RE: auggziliary

    Also you guys have the luxury of living in less racist and more diverse areas.

    I was raised in Confederate flag land, and I’ve spent the past three years in Boston. In my opinion, it may be less overtly racist here, but considering what I was raised with, that really isn’t saying much. (I spent a fair amount of my childhood honestly believing the Civil War wasn’t over slavery, and that that was Yankee propoganda.) I didn’t realize how much of the New England brand had soaked into me till I got out of here during my road trip and ended up in Ohio.

  22. I’ve actually heard really nasty stuff about Boston in terms of race issues. No burning crosses, sure, but everyone I’ve ever known who’s spent time there who’s not white has been distinctly uncomfortable there.

  23. RE: CassandraSays

    Yup. It’s just that I was raised so racist, Boston looks comparatively… better. Not ‘good,’ just better.

  24. Trying to desegregate the Boston public school system provoked a lot of resistance.

    I was actually part of the effort to desegregate LA public schools by busing kids to new schools — as a kid, not a mover and shaker. I loved it. Got to meet a bunch of new kids just when I was most bored with the kids I’d been going to school with. And it really opened my eyes to how privileged I was previously attending a public school in a neighborhood with more resources. We had a small but cool library, the school clean, textbooks were new, we didn’t have to worry about crime on the school grounds, etc. Busing moved me to a school where none of that was true.

  25. Since the topic’s come up…I’ve been working on the Borg 101 pages. Including the racism 101 one. But I’m pretty damn white — my experience is limited to “you did NOT just say that about my friend/relative” (anyone want to comment on Italian immigrant miners? No? Good)

    But this means I’m wary of signing off on any of the 101 type pages that I’ve found. I mean, they sound good to me, but it feels so different than doing the GLBT section (particularly the trans* stuff). There I know what to look for to noptopus it, racism I don’t. Can someone less white than me vet it? I’ll give you back end access if you don’t have it already, or email me and I’ll send you what I have (feministborg or this nym, both are gmail)

    Thanks in advance, and I hope this isn’t coming off all “I’m white, educate me!”

  26. My Poor Generation

    I’m sure the MRA will talk about the crimes of Winnie Mandela next and call her an example of feminism.

  27. Argenti – I can take a look (plus I have access to said backend).

    Question: is it wrong of me to absolutely ABHOR the term “person of color”? I know it’s the newest of the PC terms, but for some reason it pisses me off.

  28. cloudiah: I was in a part of LA which wasn’t LAUSD, and so busing didn’t happen; because there wasn’t enough in the way of separate campuses in the Montebello USD to make it feasible,that and the racial mix was, as I recall it about 60/40 white/hispanic, with a VERY small percentage of blacks/asians).

    I did spend my sophomore/senior years in an LAUSD school… it was different, and not in ways I’d say were good, because the PWT (bussed in) students were, by and large, tracked into less academically rigorous classes.

  29. I actually have an amusing integration story.

    Okay, so I was raised in [City], Texas, in [City] High School. Our sworn nemesis was a place called Westlake, which was rich white suburbialand that regularly trounced our asses in football every year. My high school compatriots had a game they would play whenever they got their hands on a Westlake yearbook. This game was called Find The Black Person.

    Due to us being [City] High, we had a pretty variegated student population, racially and socially. You had the punks with safety pins through their anatomy, and the guy who wore his girlfriend’s clothes, and the refugees from Hurricane Katrina, and the trailer park kids, and so on and so forth. Our yearbooks reflected this accordingly. Westlake’s yearbooks, on the other hand, had a whole lot of smiling white kids in collared shirts and nice clothes.

    Our school was okay with a budget, but you definitely saw the wear and tear; in marching band, I played a vibraphone that had a broken middle C and Eb keys, our textbooks tended to be a bit old and battered, that kind of thing. Westlake, of course, had plenty of money, and apparently are a pretty high-ranked school. (Though we at [City] High took pride in having higher test scores.)

    Well, I found out that Westlake was opened SPECIFICALLY as backlash when [City] High School became integrated! It seems that the rich white folks didn’t take too kindly to this, so created their own goddamn school district deep in the heart of whitelandia so that they could keep their ritzy white environment.

    Now, whether this spawned the hatred, I don’t know, but I thought it was educational.

    Interesting Texas trivia for you!

  30. Thanks Alice, and YMMV on terms. I think the census included “negro” in 2010 as people still use it to refer to themselves. I know I went to school with a girl of Jamaican descent whose mother despised the term African American because she wasn’t from Africa (not that she hated Africans or African Americans, but the easure of non-African PoC/blacks)

  31. Question: is it wrong of me to absolutely ABHOR the term “person of color”? I know it’s the newest of the PC terms, but for some reason it pisses me off.

    You should consider watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vl34mi4Iw

  32. Pecunium — I fucking hate tracking. So very much. My HS had -3, -5, -7, -9, level 5 being he standard and 9 high honors. Well, level 3 courses were special ed level courses, so what do you think happened when they did away with them? Parents of level 5 kids had a shit fit, and then those of level 7 kids and then my high honors math ended up answering the same questions for a week because dude, you just aren’t cut out for this!

    Contra, I was on level 5 English for 9th and 10th grade cuz it was based on middle school grades and middle school English was like 20% spelling, and I cannot fucking spell. And 5 in 9th grade means 5 in 10th. Luckily my 10th grade teacher noticed that I sat in the back by the bookcase so I could read ALL THE THINGS while she read to the class (yes, seriously)

    Tracking, bad all over the place.

  33. Argenti – Personally, I read the term “person of color”, and I think “really? White’s not a freaking color anymore? *roll eyeballs*”. That’s what gets me — the fact that it still perpetuates the idea that white is not a color among many others, but a default setting that everyone else deviates from.

  34. I still remember when there was this cute video of Bjork hugging Goldie, who she was dating at the time, when he turned up at a show and surprised her. The American reporter who I saw introducing the clip referred to Goldie as African American, which was weird because not only is he British, not American, he’s not African either (I think his parents are from Jamaica).

  35. That’s what gets me — the fact that it still perpetuates the idea that white is not a color among many others, but a default setting that everyone else deviates from.

    It’s way better than saying “non-white people,” though. That has a way more polarizing effect.

  36. Ally – Okay, I did watch the video. I can now understand WHY the term comes to exist, but I still feel uncomfortable with the inherent assumption that white is not a color, that it’s a default.

    It sounds really, really, really stupid. >_<

  37. Ally – I guess? I wish there was a better way to express people who are disadvantaged by the racial hierarchy though that didn’t confer the idea that white is a default setting.

  38. Alice, I think you are raising a good point. I have no idea how to address it, but it’s a good point, and I’m glad you raised it.

  39. Cloudiah’s right, it’s a good point and I have no ideas. I use lighter/darker than me sometimes, with degrees thereof, but lots of white people are lighter than me (quarter full blooded Italian, with some Native American mixed in, so white enough to be read as white, but I don’t burn or anything, so lighter than me is a bit odd)

    Maybe just lighter/darker skinned in general? That or straight “of African descent” // African, Chinese, Indian, etc. maybe?

  40. Perceived race isn’t just about skin color, though. My skin tone is in the same range as a lot of Hispanic people, and some North African Arabs, and I’m sometimes read as belonging to one of those groups, usually by people who are themselves part of that group, but the thing is, as soon as I open my mouth and talk people change their perception to “white”, and I’m never going to suffer from the kind of racism that happens when people can’t see you either, because my name reads as white too.

  41. A friend of mine recently told me that I’m technically a WOC, but I’m still not sure if the label applies to me. I mean, my skin is very white (the whitest in the family, in fact) and I grew up in a middle-class white household (my dad is Indian and dark-skinned, but he wasn’t around often for various reasons). But my facial appearance doesn’t really like “white” and my name is definitely not a typical white American name, and many people can tell right away that I’m mixed-race. Some people even guess correctly that I’m half Indian. So even though I’m technically not white, I’m not sure if I pass as white and therefore receive white privilege just like other white folks. And if I pass as white, I might be unjustly using the WOC label for myself. IDK, I’m confused.

  42. Passing privilege doesn’t make someone not a PoC, Ally.

  43. Thing like hair texture impact how race is read too. I think the fact that my hair is curly as well as very dark is part of the reason I’m often read as not-white.

  44. Passing privilege doesn’t make someone not a PoC, Ally.

    I suppose, but I feel like that contradicts what the woman said in that video. Maybe it’s better to say that I’m a WOC with some white-passing privilege.

  45. I haven’t watched that video; I’m thinking mostly of people I’ve known or known about. Saying passing privilege excludes a person reminds me of the racist types here who say X can’t possibly be Aboriginal because their skin’s too white, and they shouldn’t get all the Wonderful Benefits(TM) that go with being Aboriginal.

  46. Also it’s very common for passing privilege to apply in some situations but not others. It’s rarely a blanket thing.

  47. On the racism, sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I was saying racism only happens in the south. I’d say it’s more “traditional” here though.
    I think the most racist person I’ve met was this guy who lived near my school. He had American flags made into dolls(take a basketball and cover it with the flag, tie it, it’s a simple “ghost doll”) with blackface cartoon painted on them hung from trees, and “kkk” sprayed on the side of his trailer. He lived there for over 5 years.

  48. Apologies if this has been posted before:

    Mandela: The Ultimate Male Feminist

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/08/world/africa/the-ultimate-male-feminist-mandela/?c=&page=1

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