Dalrock on why men should avoid women who’ve wasted “a lot of courtship” and “used up their most attractive/fertile years.”
Woman with surplus courtship
Dalrock, a manosphere traditionalist with a great love of charts and statistics and other accoutrements of SCIENCE, has managed to figure out a way to stretch “don’t be so picky, ladies, or you’ll get old and ugly and no man will ever want you” out to 1500 words.
Here are a few of them:
Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another.
Oh dear. We’re off to a very unpromising start here.
As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Here’s some surveillance footage of an average American woman being courted by several men.
But now — get this — the ladies are waiting longer to marry!
Just think about what this does to the dude navigating the marriage market hoping to “maximize his Pareto efficiency,” if you know what I mean and I think you do.
He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
So watch out, ladies, because if you wait too long, guys are going to decide you’re not much of a bargain!
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband.
Exactly! Because women never change their mind because they’re, you know, in a different stage of their life or anything.
Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased.
This reminds me of that famous joke, you know, where that woman approaches Winston Churchill at a party and says, “Sir, you are drunk.”
And he replies: “And you, Bessie, have used up your most attractive/fertile years. But I shall be sober in the morning, and you will still have used up your most attractive/fertile years.”
That Churchill, what a card!
Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them.
Are there really a lot of guys who look back on the women they dated in their twenties and think, “boy, I wasted a lot of courtship on those gals! I mean, I wasted nearly 14 courtship on Jessa alone!” (Also, who knew that the women are always the ones to blame when heterosexual couples in their twenties break up?)
They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. …
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship.
Well, you could always marry a dude.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship.
Wait, really? Please, please, please, let one of the ways be “marry a dude.”
The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage.
Damn. Anyway, sexual relationships are fine, but you are aware that there are other kinds of relationships — sorry, “courting” — besides sex and marriage, right?
Ok, we still have one more. Marry a dude. Marry a dude. Marry a dude.
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense.
That’s your, er, “solution?” Marry a teenager? Or a woman at most in her early twenties?
As Dalrock knows, but doesn’t want to believe, those who marry when they’re very young are much more likely to divorce than those who marry when they’re older. For evidence, see this chart, which I found elsewhere on Dalrock’s own blog:
But hope springs eternal for modern misogynistic manospherian marriage market minded men (MMMMMMM).
Posted on November 18, 2013, in a woman is always to blame, evil old ladies, evil sexy ladies, evil women, marriage strike, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, oppressed white men, patriarchy, playing the victim, reactionary bullshit and tagged marriage strike, misogyny, traditionalism. Bookmark the permalink. 1,428 Comments.
Meller was quite entertaining when he wasn’t telling people that their students deserved to be beaten up or killed. Doll fetishist (Madame Alexander variety, not Real Dolls), racist, fantasist who liked to share details of his imagined utopia, and believer of the idea that modern men are so repulsed by modern women that they’d rather fuck cats and/or Hello Kitty.
I’m not kidding about the last part, he thought we should be jealous of our cats because men found them more sexually appealing than us.
Nah, Bina, you have to see to believe. I don’t have any threads handy. Anyone got any links to Meller? Are there any on the forum? He was kind of a poe white-knighter.
>snurk< And what a coinkidink, I find my cats more non-sexually appealing than I do the likes of him. Not ALL men, just creepy assclowns of that stripe.
You have to wonder what sort of blokes Meller hung out with to get these ideas. He wouldn’t have picked up that notion from peering through windows (though I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he is a voyeur).
@Sparky
Here’s the uninteresting, very long story from the Dalrock post that I called fakey due to it’s stilted dialogue and general oddness. The five women on Facebook are from the “8-10 gorgeous white women” featured in this not gripping tale that you can waste your time reading in it’s entirety.
Like every other aspect of Mikey’s over-sharing, in the end, I really don’t care if it happened or not. It’s just Mikey being Mikey, raging on and on about how women are delusional sluts who are slutting their way to future non-married SPINSTERhood. I’d like to point out that when Mikey looks up five of these shameless party girls on Facebook, he considers the four who are “single” and “in a relationship” as being miserable SPINSTERS, because they aren’t blessed with the “married” status that equals eternal happiness, which is very reasonable and based on how real life works.
If you’re so high on marriage, Mikey, then get married. It’s weird for someone in their mid-30s whose never been married to preach the virtues of early matrimony to strangers on the internet. If all modern American women are unworthy of a quality guy like yourself, then not even the genius of Dalrock’s blog can save us. You’re better off hitting those mail order bride sites and leaving us slutty SPINSTERS be.
That is unless you want us to keep mocking you, in which case you should keep your goofball hysterical posts coming.
I would have said anime forum of the more notably misogynistic variety, but I don’t think the guys who hang out in those would have had much patience with his faux-Victorian linguistic pretensions.
Can modern Australian women be unworthy of him, too? Please, please, let me join the Unworthy of Mikey club!
Fucking priceless. =]
Since Michael thinks that every woman who comes within 10 ft of him is desperate to shag him, I wonder if he thinks the same of men?
Waiter: Would you like to start off with an appetizer?
Michael: Back off you slut! You should have blown me in college when you had the chance!
Waiter: Ah. I’ll just get get you the MRA Special for one then, shall I?*
Michel: I are educated and I live on the beach!
Waiter: Whatever you say, Sir.
*It’s a warm mug to catch his bitter tears.
Meller probably has a collection of the nastier Victorian porn.
I count as American since I live here, even though I’m British, right?
Hmmm…double gets. Oops. :/
leatapp, perfect! I present you with one gold-plated internetz with added kittens.
My grandmother got married at 22, because she felt that she was too old to stay single any more. My grandfather was a violent alcoholic who beat his wife and daughters until my dad became strong enough to intimidate him. So it might not be surprising that her advice to me as a child was to get an education and support myself, so that I could choose what kind of life I would live.
Doh, I get it. Mikey misses Penthouse Forum!
I should get my Dad to send me a photo of the beach and ocean view from the awesome apartments he and Mum used to live in when they were in Thailand, just to twist the knife. Much better than living on the beach in LA, I can promise you that.
PS – Mum was 5 years older than Dad, and almost 30 when he married her. He was not her first boyfriend. I guess pissing guys like Mikey off runs in the family, huh?
Definitely genetic! :D
Part of the reason I’m finding Mikey’s attempts to impress us so funny is that my dad is basically the guy he fantasizes about being (except without the angry misogynistic asshole part, because he’s always gotten plenty of attention from women).
No wonder he’s friggin’ obsessed with you! Bwahahahahaha!
Woah, hey, errbody’s over here.
@Brooked
Wow, even in his own stories he gets owned. I like this Kaylene.
The complete contradictions, ragefroth, transparency and SPINSTERS are what make me laugh. He’s such a mess of impotent confusion and permanently unfulfilled entitlement. He probably walks out of the supermarket with the wrong stuff because he’s in such a rage at women over thirty daring to stand in the same aisle as him.
These dudebro tears, how sweet they are.
wait, is Mikey obsessed with Cassandra? Do we have a t-fer sockericious deal?
I thought he was obsessed with Brooke and someone else!
Super thin and with curves?
What was she, a contortionist?
It’s like even in his fantasies it’s impossible for him to imagine a reality in which women don’t despise him.
I thought Mikey was all hung up on whether cupinesque’s gravatar was photoshopped or not?
Mikey seems to be obsessed with cupinisnique. Not that he can be bothered to remember her nym or anything. Huh, wonder why he’s had such bad luck with women.
Which is probably the closest he’ll ever get to self-awareness.
How could Kayleigh refuse to date him, even though they were friends and she had sex with other people? Didn’t she realize that she owed him at least a blowjob? See, this is why SPINSTERS are a thing.
Ewww. I just realised something. This clown is much the same age as the partners of both of my daughters. The idea of having someone like this turning up as a potential member of my own family!
As I said. Ewwww. Gakkkk. Urrgggh.
I love how he so pointedly points out Kaylene refused to date him even though they were friends. As if it casts aspersions on *her* character.
ninja’ed a bit by cassandrakitty.
mildlymagnificent, your daughters’ partners don’t ACT like this, I hope?
If Mikey ever did get a girlfriend, I wonder how many months weeks days it’d be before he pulled the “Nobody else would have you, you ungrateful -” line (thus showing he’s abusive and also thinks of himself as one of those Losers he rants about)?
If any of your daughters are dating someone like Mikey that calls for an intervention.
Because she’s a double-digit Ferris-wheeling Slutty McSlutSlut. And she wasn’t giving the Quality Man™ a pityfuck.
@ kittehserf
Someone actually tried that on me once! The “you’re so lucky to have me” thing. He seemed rather put out when I burst out laughing.
yeah, when I joined facebook I didn’t bother listing my maiden name. Figured the people from “back then” that I had any meaningful connection with already knew me by my married name. No need to be findable by that one weird creep you half-remember hanging around when you were 19.
Mike’s weird. I am not sure I even believe he’s 32; that’s my age and I can hardly believe anyone that old could be so…. naively B & W about life, I guess. Maybe some people have a difficult time navigating ambivalence and uncertainty– (reality?)
To go from seeing The Princess Bride as anything resembling reality to making the same error with The Gospel According To Dalrock! Both make some implicit “promises” about life fulfillment, though… Mike, if you are listening, I would suggest thinking about that before marrying *anyone.* Marriage is complex; the poorer your ability to tolerate significant emotional discomfort without lashing out at other people, (or stuffing those feelings altogether!) the harder it tends to be. Trust me. You need to develop good emotional health to have a thriving longterm marriage– marrying a 20something HB8 will not change that.
Sorta interesting, anyway
I was half-watching the game, working peyote stitch on some absurdly tiny seedbeads and that outburst made me lose my place! What was THAT about?!
Heheh I can just picture it!
OT thank you jefrir if you read this, the formatting toolbar is a gift from Ceiling Cat. :)
“YOu know, you’re like a natural 7, but I’ll bump you up to a 9 for being 20, uhhh…. you.” “My name is Cathy…” “Keep correcting men like that and you’re going to end up a SPINSTER you ugly slut!”
Brooked: Ah, that makes a little more sense.
When your opponent has to explain your argument for you, well, add debate to the long list of Mikey’s failings. And he claims to be a lawyer.
So lets see. 8-10 (really? Couldn’t be bothered to get an accurate count?) 18-24 year old white women attending college who Mikey seems attractive. Out of those, he looks up 5 on Facebook, after an unknown amount if time has passed since the first conversation (a year? a week? 6 hours?). One woman lists her status as married; the other 4 are either “single” or “in a relationship.” The others are lost to follow-up because Mikey can’t remember their names.
So, we have a ridiculously small and unrepresentative sample size, half of which we have no follow-up data on. Of the 4 out 5 who don’t list their Facebook status as “married,” we are unsure how many list themselves as “in a relationship” or “single.” So, we have no real numbers. And we have no idea of the relationship status of half the original sample.
And all of the above says absolutely nothing about the general happiness and satisfaction of those women.
Shows absolutely no understanding of the scientific method. I’d give it an “F.”
“Who Mikey deems attractive.” Not “seems attractive.”
To whom Mikey did not seem attractive, it seems.
So, to recap: Mikey can’t spell, analyze data, or think. He also can’t see past the end of his own sad, wilted dick.
And yet, we are meant to believe that he’s “educated”.
That’s so cute.
One of them’s now married to a bloke called Michael – but he’s a really nice person. See, Mikey, it’s really not that hard. Be a nice person, meet a nice person, fall in love, be happy – and you can be 25, 35 or 65, it still works whether you do or don’t get married.
As for intervention. Long, long ago they gave me carte blanche to speak up if I had any doubts about anyone they were involved with. They reckon someone who’s been through the disastrous marriage fuckup routine gets a free pass to prevent further fuckups in the making. (Well, someone who’s managed to have an idyllic marriage afterwards – they both like to talk about us as “soulmates”. I don’t have the heart to say I’m super not-keen on that expression.)
And now the other daughter’s bloke is talking to us about timing for the great engagement ring “moment”. I reckon he should just get on with it, though I didn’t say exactly that when he was being so prim and potential-son-in-law-ish about it. He’s really a sweetie.
Jeez, whatever he does, I hope he doesn’t do the spring-it-in-public routine. That’s horrible and manipulative even if the person doing it thinks they’re being romantic.
It is! Let’s hope it keeps Blockquote Monster at bay. Thanks, Jefrir!
Har. In Soviet Canuckistan, Mikey is unworthy of ME.
::grrrrrrr:
::is envious::
You Canuckistanis have all the fun!
On currently unknown planets where gas-based lifeforms mate by blowing bubbles at each other they could read this thread and realize that Mikey is unworthy of you.
No, nothing like that. He’s more concerned about how all their job / time / money / other stuff will fit together. He’d never do anything so crass as one of those public declaration things – his inclination is a bit different. It’s more that he’s afraid of putting a foot wrong (in ways that I don’t think any one of us would much fuss over, least of all my daughter).
Fun fact: Michael’s story (the one posted in the comments at Dalrock) is listed in the sidebar of the Red Pill subreddit, as the ultimate “women are terrible so you better become an alpha asshole” testimonial.
Strewth, they aren’t picky, are they?
I’m still not seeing what’s so alpha about shrieking at women on feminist blogs in a futile attempt to force them to care about your opinion.
Especially when you repeatedly declare those women aren’t worthy of your attention.
Not really sure how “white” is relevant here, unless you confronted a room of 8-10 gorgeous black girls the next day, and a room of 8-10 gorgeous Hispanic girls the day after that. But I bet you didn’t.
So not “girls” at all, then?
And the problem here is what, exactly? I have only the vaguest idea of what my various girlfriends got up to a decade before they met me. I’m sure they’d tell me if I was inclined to ask, but I wasn’t around at the time and it’s absolutely none of my business. Similarly, they never showed much interest in my previous sex life. Why would they?
Again, sounds perfectly normal, and very much the kind of lifestyle trajectory that I can see my daughter adopting – very much with my blessing. Although provided she was happy, I wouldn’t be the least bit fussed if she settled down later – after all, both her parents did.
Ooh, get you, Mr Inquisitor! Did you get out the thumbscrews, or were you worried they might think it was some kind of come-on?
I’d be reluctant to generalize quite that much, but it’s certainly true that the genuinely nice guys (and women) that I know have done pretty well in the long run, at least in terms of achieving personal contentment.
The only problem here is that our Mikey isn’t remotely a nice guy, and so none of that applies to him.
Eat it to what? Eat it to work? Eat it to the shower? Eat it to the library? Oh, you mean too – well, I know plenty of people who’ve managed that particular combo.
WHAT A HEARTLESS BITCH. Still, she’s probably a SPINSTER now, amirite?
Good for them. Because if there’s even the vaguest possibility of them ending up with anyone even the tiniest bit like Mikey, they need to get out and enjoy themselves. Not least because the more they enjoy themselves, the more they’ll realize just how little Mikey’s offering them.
In the unlikely event that Kayleigh exists and one day reads this I have to say…you really dodged a bullet there. Imagine if she had dated this dude? He’d probably still be internet stalking her to this day.
I’ll be chuffed if I ever meet Mr K’s former lovers. Some of ‘em I know about, some not, but it’d be cool to get together with people who’ve been part of that pattern of love/friendship/affection over the years.
By enthusiastic mutual consent, my wife and I are still in regular contact with one former partner apiece – there’s not the slightest risk of any extramarital straying (not least for the prosaic reason that there was nowhere near as much sexual chemistry between us and them as there is between the two of us, and in any case he’s very happily married), and they were too close friends to simply ditch after the romantic side fizzled out.
In fact, I get to see a fair bit of him, as he and his wife often come to spend the weekend with us (and vice versa) – what typically happens is that his wife and I tend to turn in early and just leave our spouses to reminisce downstairs for hours on end, and then poke fun at the bags under their eyes the following morning. He’s a really nice guy and terrific company, but I can absolutely see why things never went further – his wife is far more his type.
While I was out walking my dog, I realised why Mikey commented on dog walking as a spinster activity rather than the traditional cat ownership. It’s because sole reason women walk dogs is the same as going to the supermarket – to meet men! It was in a movie once, so it must be true.
Dogs that are owned by women don’t actually need to poop or pee – truefax.
In all seriousness, ever since we got a puppy last year (and he’s still not even one year old yet so still cute as a button), I’ve had spontaneous conversations in public with loads of women and even chat to some of them regularly now. Although in the vast majority of cases they know his name but not mine – in fact, one of them even gave him a Christmas card from her dog the other month.
Incidentally, I took him for a nice long walk on the beach yesterday, because that’s the sort of thing you can do if you live down by the sea. You know, the sort of thing that people who aren’t as rich and successful as Mikey just can’t afford to do.
I had to actually venture to Reddit to see it for myself. Mikey’s a celebrity and hero to men everywhere, thanks to his experience story.
That Confessions of a Reformed Incel story is very, very nasty.
As far as listing maiden names on FB, my ten year reunion just past (I missed the invite, oh well) and it was apparently “friend people you went to school with” week. I got a bunch of friend requests from people I hadn’t spoken to since grade school — maiden names were definitely useful in terms of “ooooh, so I do know you!” (With an ex of my ex-FWB marrying someone absolutely perfect for her, and she’s due soon and I’m thrilled for them)
So yeah, if you’re going by a new name and friending people who knew you by your old name, listing it is helpful to them.
Also, try not to blow the fuse my fish tanks are connected to, the sound of everything going down and then back up at once is quite startling. Though I am glad to know it wakes me up instantly.
Mikey refers to himself as Incel? That explains quite a few things, like the constant rage and overbearing sense of entitlement.
No, the Incel story is not by Mikey. It just appears alongside Mikey’s story on the Reddit sidebar.
Oh ho ho, Mikey the Incel, or even ex-incel? But wait, how could a richbuffhandsomelawyerlivingdirectlyonthebeachandtravellingcoach possibly have been incel, even when he was a spotty frat boy with a permanent scowl, massive entitelment issues and only passing acquaintance with personal hygiene?
Wetherby, your stories made me smile. I had friends years back, who’d had a relationship years before I knew them. She acted as groomsman at his wedding. :)
Most of the strangers I talk to are dog-walkers in the park. I love seeing the dogs out playing.
Got any pics of your puppy you’d like to share?
I met an eight-week-old Maltese-Poodle cross the other day. Soft reddish-gold colour, rather like a dark Golden Retriever, sharp little nose and the softest curly fur, and so excited by all these people she was dancing around widdling. So. Much. Cute.
Grumpycat – drat, Mikey as self-proclaimed ex-incel would have been hilarious.
Oh well, he’s hilarious anyway.