Turns out VICE made a video about that Men’s Rights rally in Toronto. GO WATCH IT.
This is not an embedded video, so don’t click on it.
I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself – but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Posted on November 2, 2013, in a voice for men, actual activism, antifeminism, evil women, FemRAs, FeMRAsplaining, GirlWritesWhat, imaginary backwards land, imaginary oppression, incoherent rage, ladies against women, men created civilization, misogyny, MRA, oppressed white men, paul elam, reactionary bullshit, Suzanne McCarley, things that aren't fascism, we hunted the mammoth and tagged a voice for men, antifeminism, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, toronto. Bookmark the permalink. 1,097 Comments.
Think Haupsatz would be in a better mood if I presented a formal self-criticism?
Sparky – they used something like that in an episode of Lewis, I think it was – letter magnets on a fridge kept getting moved.
thebewilderness – it’s cranky weather-wise here, looks like rain coming. I see the blockquote monster’s cranky, too, it just got gillyrosebee.
Update, it is now pissing down!
Damn, I need to have lunch and do the vaccuuming.
I’m cranky, and weepy, and I made cookies after all, but I burnt the bottoms. The tops are okay, though.
@gillyrosebee
True. I think this really depends on what the point of the protest was, though. If the point was to argue with the MRAs, or refute the MRAs, then I completely agree with you. If the point was to EXPOSE the MRM on the other hand, then I don’t have a problem with the chant because it’s for the benefit of the observers, if you see what I mean.
@Cassandra
I was thinking more about disrupting recruitment, but that’s a valid point too.
@kitteh’s
While there are plenty of those, there are also plenty of (for example) POC misogynists, that would be quick to tell racists to fuck off. While anyone who looks even somewhat deeply into the MRM would find all this out for themselves, there are also a lot of people who support causes based on what activists tell them, without looking too deep into things for themselves. It’s those people that I’m concerned about (concerned that non-misogynists may be fooled, and concerned that misogynists that may actually be turned away from the MRM won’t be).
On the issue of intersectionality, nobody here is saying that intersectionality isn’t important. What’s actually happening is a disagreement about what is and isn’t effective strategy at a political protest, or an effective means of countering MRA rhetoric in general. Notice how the conversation that Shadow started has been drilling down on the details a bit?
But not *the* symbol of communism. There is not one communism, as you yourself admitted with your attempted snark about the red versus the brown. You use the hammer and sickle and you associate yourself with a particular historical example.
Which is, let me be absolutely clear, perfectly fine.
But you don’t get to decide whether or not people who don’t like that particular historical example work to counter you based on it, or when those who might otherwise be on your side choose not to march under it. When you use a symbol, you carry it’s baggage along with your own. And if you are not willing to support everything that happened under that particular historical banner, then don’t use that particular signifier.
Plenty of us choose our symbols very carefully based on the ideas we are willing to expend our effort to carry forward. If you can’t be bothered, that’s fine. Go flail yourself uselessly on as many different battle fronts as you choose. But peddle your petulance about the fact that people are upset about the symbol elsewhere.
RE: sparky
That would be great opening for a horro movie.
I once came down from my room to find nobody in the house, just the words ‘DO NOT GO OUTSIDE’ written on the communal whiteboard. I STILL think it’s the best opening for a horror story ever.
I have to go and send a report to my anti-communist masters, and then I’m going to bed. Good night everyone… and if anyone has a weather machine, could you turn the wind down in Yorkshire? It be blowy.
*Reminder to self: do not read Athywren’s comments when mouth is full of liquid which would be painful if expressed nasally*
So, I am actually quite torn on how to most effectively counter MRA “events” and wish we could have a productive discussion about it. It’s good that they’ve been so pathetic that mockery is really all we need to do. What if they get bigger? What would an effective counter protest look like?
Shadow is talking intelligently, rather than doing a “Wahhh I’ll take my bat and ball and go home because you’re all mean meanies!” as BlackBlock is.
That would actually be a great approach for some of the people who have friends who’re getting pulled into the MRM. “But they hate you almost as much as they hate women” could be an effective place to start with some people. For young men who’re getting pulled in via seeing MRA talking points repeated endlessly in comments threads it might be easy for them to miss the fact that the MRM as a whole hates anyone outside a very narrow paradigm straight traditionalist white dude friendly acceptability, so pointing them towards some of the stuff that makes it clear just how broad the MRM’s range of not-acceptable is could be a useful way of nipping things in the bud.
The quote was accurate and timely at the time it was spoken. Political philosophy, for the most part, reads far better than it lives.
LBT: Wow. That is really spooky!
RE: CassandraSays
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I could easily have gotten sucked into the MRM (for a little while, anyway) if I hadn’t been aware what DOUCHES they were about queer and trans people, and poor people. I can’t see why it wouldn’t work for other folks.
@CassandraSays
Intersectionality isn’t a political tactic… what so ever. What are you even talking about?
The link I gave was to Wikipedia… I promise it doesn’t have malware.
In fact, Intersectionality undermines political tactics that choose to downplay one system of oppression for another. Which, as far as I can tell, is what you’ve been arguing for: that the Bash Back protesters focus only on misogyny.
This implies that only those bodies “unmarked” by racial, sexual, gender-identity, class, and ability stigmatization or marginalization are worthy of concern. To put simply, it’s the argument that only white, affluent, cis, straight, able-bodied women are worthy of political consideration.
RE: sparky
It was during the period they were chasing the Boston Marathon Bombers through Boston, and areas of town were in lockdown. Thus the context. But yeah, that was a very creepy way to start the day. (Don’t worry, the bombers never came through our area.)
I might ask you the same thing. Certainly you don’t seem to be having (or reading) the same conversation as the rest of us.
@CassandraSays
Is that seriously your response to the intersectionalist criticism?
Are you for some reason not able to scroll back? We’ve been talking about some of this stuff for a while.
This article is about ONE protest, at an MRM rally. They can focus on whatever they want in their general activities, but to just lump it all under their general chant is overlooking the hatred of women that drives them. Is it really too much to ask that their protests actually be more specific to the hate-groups they’re confronting? That is, after all, what David said to begin with.
cloudiah, it’s an excellent question and I am increasinly distressed to say that I just don’t know. I keep coming back around to the idea that a counter protest is the wrong idea for the reasons stated up thread. I just don’t think the optics are helpful, and you know there will be no productive dialog.
I’d never get on a “stage” with an MRA, basically, because that would be granting them too much legitimacy (like denialists on the subjects of climate change or evolution). As a feminist, I’ll lend my support to my allies whenever I can, both in the sense of basic support and by lending my presence to their rallies and marches, and I’ll work to take down the ideas in venues where nuance is welcome and false equivalency is anathema.
But I’d never go to an MRA ‘event’ to do anything but point and laugh, and I’d usually be too busy even for that.
Hell, someone who otherwise identified as an MRA wanted to hold an event where they actively try to advocate for real problems without the misogynist rhetoric and I’d even consider coming out because, as we note here again and again and again and again, there are real issues having to do with workplace safety, rape, educational achievement, and a whole host of others, that we could meet over, so long as “meeting” was defined as actually working to find solutions to address and end them rather than trying to spread around the misery.
I was addressing kittehserf. He’s the only one who’s been consistently gas-lighting and straw-manning me and also putting forward microaggressions, though I guess now Cassandrasays joined the fray. And that thebewilderness person, which (I may be misremembering) but I think is a TERF troll, so I don’t really care.
*hatred of women that drives the MRM, and Bash Back’s protests. Pronoun slip!
@feministbees, I think you are seriously mis-reading Cassandra’s argument. Read Shadow’s comments for a more nuanced critique, which is being taken seriously.
I have nothing against counter protests, and I can see some usefulness in them in the sense of making it clear that there are people who object to the goals of the group protesting, but in terms of actively combating something as internet-focused as the MRM I can’t see them being very effective.
Just FYI, kittehserf seems to prefer “she” rather than “he”.
Yeah, and you say:
Which doesn’t make sense from an intersectionalist stand point. Regardless of whatever “primary focus” means, ignoring the other systems they participate in is not an option. Period.
Like seriously. This is exactly how my long abandoned arguments with GWW went. I’m not going to do all this work for you in an ostensibly pro-feminist place.
Oh, I’m a he now?
Damn, that McCarthy haircut really has to go.
And thebewilderness is a TERF?
Wow, you really are full of shit, aren’t you? Troll-worthy indeed.
Yeah, I’ll use micro-aggressions at a bloke who’s talking shit and making up rubbish about everyone else on the thread.
>>>>You use the hammer and sickle and you associate yourself with a particular historical example.
*I* actually don’t, but there’s this thing we call solidarity, you may have heard of it.
Way to misgender Kittehs. who was doing no such thing. Neither has anyone else, but you are in martyr mode tonight.
thebewilderness is not a TERF troll, do you really think they’d last long here?
Jesus.
Feminist Bees, you really are coming across as saying “Never mind the misogyny, what about the homophobia and the racism?”
Is the vast bulk of MRM ranting about LGBTQ people or people of colour? I know plenty of it is, but this is a woman-hating movement before it’s anything else.
WHO IS ARGUING THAT WE SHOULD IGNORE THE OTHER ASPECTS OF THEIR BIGOTRY?
Sorry to yell, but I’m not seeing it.
Huh? You admit that you don’t understand what I meant, but it’s wrong because, well, it just is, and you assume that I’m asking you to do something for me because..?
I don’t know that I have the patience for a discussion with someone who doesn’t know the difference between “primary” and “exclusive”.
Like seriously, no one asked you to do any heavy lifting, we get it.
Is Mercury in retrograde or some shit?
kittehserf: I don’t know you. At this point there’s enough regulars that I can’t keep track of all of them (I’m assuming you are a regular, since you seem to be under the impression I should know who you are). I went off your avatar’s rough gender presentation. I’m sorry if I misgendered you. And I thought I remembered who thebewilderness was, but apparently I’m wrong on that as well.
Yes, it is. I was just thinking that.
It is, supposedly. I don’t believe this shit, but one of my work friends has had unremitting bad luck since this started and it’s become a running joke.
Also, Feminist Bees, has it escaped your attention that this is a MOCKERY site? The sub-heading here doesn’t say anything about defending the sanctimonious women’s studies set; you want Feministe for that. The sub-heading here says “Misogyny. I mock it.”
What part of that is so hard to understand?
I’m sorry THAT I misgendered you.
@cloudiah
I’ve been reading shadow’s comments, and they’re thoughtful and I mostly agree. That’s why I’m not addressing my comments to Shadow.
I’m also not addressing my comments to kittehserf, who apparently can’t read explanations about intersectionality, i.e.:
is in conflict with my earlier claim:
Accepted, BlackBloc. I’ve been a regular (as in pretty much every day) commenter here for a year or so.
thebewilderness has been here longer than I have, I think, and I can’t imagine why you’d think she’s a TERF.
@BlackBloc, You may want to be more sure of yourself before accusing people of being TERFs. That’s a real asshole move, particularly when you admit you yourself weren’t sure. That almost more than anything else makes me want you to fuck off.
Saying “I’m not talking to you” and then proceeding to indirectly talk to the person you just said you refused to address is such a classic passive-aggressive move. Doesn’t exactly make me more inclined to want to engage with you, Feminist Bees.
I’m talking about the way you’re coming across, repeatedly, Feminist Bees.
Yeah… this is fucking over. Yeah, you can mock misogyny, and you can also mock women’s studies. Whether that’s a form of misogyny, I’ll just let the mockery decide.
@feministbees, Maybe you can explain what you think is the disagreement between CassandraSays and Shadow, then?
Feminist Bees is going to run out of people zie will address at this rate. Though having a different conversation from everyone else seems to be the theme of this thread.
So, Cassandra, what’s for dinner? It must be time for a food derail.
We’re talking about the person whose entire contribution to this thread has been to insult me without even addressing me directly while doing it, right? Okay, ze is not a TERF, ze is an asshole.
I think this thread officially meets the definition of “cluster-fuck” at this point.
It’s ok, I understand perfectly. I have never pretended to be anything but what I am. A second wave radical feminist.
People have been telling me what I am all my life. I don’t take it seriously any more.
I don’t either, but after my toes and some other shit this week, plus the communication problems here, I’m starting to wonder.
Cooking now! Back in a bit.
LOL genius, the “sanctimonious women’s studies set” is Feministe’s own sub-heading as should have been pretty clear from my comment.
Speaking of reading comprehension … pot, meet kettle.
Also too and besides, I have always thought BlackBlock was here for the trollhouse cookies.
>>>Hey, BlackBloc, been out to destroy paintings of people you don’t approve of lately? I seem to recall you had little-to-no problem with MRA-types doing that.
You’ll have to remind me what this is about. Apparently you thought it was more significant than I did.
Black Bloc: just stop.
BlackBloc, given your own tendency to assholishness (in full flight on this thread) you are hardly one to be pointing at thebewilderness or anyone else on that score.
You seem to be suggesting that this is a binary dialectical condition, that either we argue all aspects of institutionalized oppression at all times or we do nothing. No one is suggesting that we should only address the misogyny of MRAs but that it is the primary vehicle through which to understand their ideology and therefore the most focused way to counter it.
Crenshaw’s theory operated not as a binary proposition, or even as a complementarity, but as a hierarchy of multipliers and a theoretical framework for understanding the force of those multipliers.
Absolutely no one here is arguing that the racism, classism, cissexism, transphobia, ableism and all the other bigotry is unimportant and should be ignored, only that it is more effective to be focused and direct.
Tactics. We are talking about tactics. Which is why the discussion of intersectionality is less helpful or relevant in this very particular context, because what we are talking about is not theory but praxis.
No, it asserts that when you are operating in a particular context, you mobilize the parts of your arsenal which will most effectively address that context.
>>>I have never pretended to be anything but what I am. A second wave radical feminist.
So wait, was I right or not?
You can be a radical feminist without hating trans people, or is that too much nuance for you?
Just in case anyone cares the womens studies set is a blast from the 2005 past when Kos told us to GTFO of we objected to his Gillligans Island sexist pie fight ad.
if, not of. sorry.
If anyone here is transphobic, I disassociate myself from them.
I also disassociate myself from BlackBloc, though I’m sure that will be called red baiting.
I associate myself with gillyrosebee, who seems pretty awesome. :: raises fist, sings Solidarity Forever ::
Do go fuck yourself, BlackBloc. You admit to hardly knowing the commenters you’re having a go at, despite how long you’ve been on the site, yet it doesn’t occur to you that they’re accepted regulars here, and thus NOT going to be TERFS?
I’m getting the feeling it really is all about you if you haven’t even taken notice of what the other regulars around have said over the years.
Why should BlackBloc stop? They are getting what they want.
cloudiah, you, you, McCarthyite, you! HUAC! Reds under the bed! Domino theory!
>>>it doesn’t occur to you that they’re accepted regulars here, and thus NOT going to be TERFS
No, I simply do not think that that conclusion follows from the previous statement.