Turns out VICE made a video about that Men’s Rights rally in Toronto. GO WATCH IT.
This is not an embedded video, so don’t click on it.
I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself – but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Posted on November 2, 2013, in a voice for men, actual activism, antifeminism, evil women, FemRAs, FeMRAsplaining, GirlWritesWhat, imaginary backwards land, imaginary oppression, incoherent rage, ladies against women, men created civilization, misogyny, MRA, oppressed white men, paul elam, reactionary bullshit, Suzanne McCarley, things that aren't fascism, we hunted the mammoth and tagged a voice for men, antifeminism, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, toronto. Bookmark the permalink. 1,097 Comments.
“The opposition” meaning anyone who didn’t agree with them, now and forever, ramen, presumably.
RE: the MBZ thread and the Great Wanking Wank of Wankerdom
Oh look, it’s kladle in the forum thread, that one person who pissed a brick over us being multi. Only on this thread they’re all about protecting LGBT folks and calling out bad ally behavior.
Unless you’re me, apparently. “When he says he’s in a gay relationship or has children, that he means something completely different than what most people mean,” my ass. I guess I’m not gay enough either, even though I’ve been married to a dude for four years. What a chucklefuck.
And as a guy who’s semi-ace and was correctively raped for it, I have VERY little patience with the ‘ace folks don’t belong’ bullshit. And it wasn’t just a shot-in-the-pan either, the “you just need a good deep dicking to fix that up” idea is a societal thing.
Agree that the secret room sounds like a pretty bad idea. I obviously never got in, though I asked about it, and it sounds like that was very much for the best. One of the reasons I actually LIKE this place is that it’s generally very easy and okay to call someone on their shit, and be called out in turn.
It really was like walking on eggshells back then. Between “if I mention that I believe in God, people will make demeaning jokes about me” and “if I tell someone that they are being mean, I’ll be accused of tone trolling” (tone trolling was used to mean that someone could be the most raging asshole you can imagine and, if they weren’t being bigoted to a minority group, you could never, ever say anything about it–not later, not in private, never) and “if I disagree about something being bigotry, I’ll be called a bigot,” you really had to watch what you said or you’d get dogpiled on and then it was all over. There was definitely that Feministe-style feel that everyone was just waiting for you to make a mistake so they could kick you out.
For instance, here a tantrum gets aimed at me for suggesting that brony culture might be indicative of a positive societal shift. It was impossible to have actual discussions about bigotry because you weren’t allowed to take the position that something wasn’t bigoted or was less bad than it was being made out as.
My all time favorite from them? It being implied that I’m racist because I don’t think the mohawk hairstyle is irredeemably racist, just in need of a new name (and Dvärghundspossen had one, as it isn’t called that there)
Oh gods yes to the eggshells! That was basically my issue with not being Queer Enough — bi in a poly relationship, one of whom is genderqueer but nawh, I don’t face open oppression like some people! (Mind, I was politely asked not to come up until after the funeral when my ex-FWB’s brother killed himself…but poly was explicitly not queer by them)
But yeah, can someone who was actually in the secret room maybe fill LBT in via email so he doesn’t feel confused every time this comes up? I wasn’t, so I can’t.
As far as airing grievances and/or irritation against DarksideCat and Rutee, I feel like we should probably quit that. It just feels a bit off to do so here knowing that they can’t defend themselves, even though the decision to not be here was their choice. Why fuel the “oh Manboobz is terrible” stuff they’re posting elsewhere?
THIS. That’s part of why I was nervous about commenting here. A lot of it’s why I hesitated about commenting on Pharyngula, and have decided not to continue, though nothing was aimed at me. Eggshells is the word.
Funny thing is I’d thought the Secret Room would be the place to tell about Sir, safe from trolls, because it felt dishonest not saying what our situation is. Looks like it would have been the worst possible place to do it. (BTW I haven’t forgotten you made it possible to do that, LBT, when I first found you’re multi and accepted here now the place isn’t assholish. I’m bloody grateful for that, tho’ you knew nothing about it, obvs!)
Which was poorly thought out since the blog owner was part of “the opposition.”
A couple years ago I realized that, if someone is making me uncomfortable so that I want to leave a space, I have an equal right to be there as they do and can just as well make them feel uncomfortable until they leave. So that particular strategy doesn’t work very well on me.
(This position puts me in real danger of becoming the person who attempts to drive off everyone I disagree with, and I am really trying not to.)
I wasn’t either, so I can’t help.
As for airing grievances…idk. On one hand, I agree, hence not being the first to name names, on the other…idk, knowing other people felt like they were walking on eggshells is reassuring? But I lived with a gaslighting asshole for nearly a year, my sense of whether I’m right about feeling the way I do is fucked up, so idk what my being reassured counts as. (Wow that sentence structure is horrible and all kinds of meta)
I just feel like a. it’s going to fuel their persecution complex and b. it makes us look like assholes. Don’t think I don’t recognize how the situation was manipulated to be like this, because I do, I’m just thinking that maybe the best way to illustrate how wrong the people concerned were is to be better people than them.
That made me so angry because it was just such a mean, mean, mean thing to say. Kladle could be a really cool person and I know zie would never say about a gay person “when he says he’s married that means something completely different than what most people mean” or about a trans* person “when he says he’s a man that means something completely different than what most people mean,” so it was just awful to pick on you. The worst part is I don’t think zie even meant to be mean: Zie was just in a totally privilege-blind mentality of not even thinking about how it’s not nice to single other people out for being different.
BTW, it’s the manipulation aspect as much as the wank that I find so objectionable about Goodbye Cruel Blog comments. It almost always seems like they don’t really mean “I’m out, see you”, they usually seem to mean that the person is trying to change a dynamic that they don’t like and will be happy to stay if things go the way they’re hoping. It’s rarely honest.
Honestly, I feel like the comments aimed at LBT and kittehs have been more about not wanting
You’re right, I feel entitled to a little bit of venting after a whole year, but I’ll stop. I think we’ve covered most of what happened (short version: being in a minority group makes you entitled to do whatever you want, unless you’re asexual or multi) but anyone who has further questions can email me.
See, I get the idea behind being the bigger person, but, well, I’ve caused myself lots of mental anguish over the years that way and have adopted a sort of policy about it. Manipulating me into silence only makes me want to scream louder, because the alternative — being the bigger person — has always meant having to pretend things are dandy and no of course you aren’t hurting me.
But since they are long gone, maybe it’s moot that giving into the manipulation bugs the fuck out of me.
Blargh. Who needs enemies when your own kind make you look a fool?
Oh, how I wish these people would just make their porridge with milk and leave the rest of us to be reasonable and live-with-able.
And tone trolling? Ffs! Tone trolling is when you complain about insignificant shit, like that people used naughty, naughty language, and pretend that it invalidates everything that’s said. It certainly isn’t calling someone out for being an unremitting arsehole.
For the record, as long as you’re not trying to convert me, I don’t care what any of you believe about god, ghosts or magic chickens; I happen to like you for reasons other than metaphysical beliefs. Feel free to criticise me if I insult any of you with anything I say. Not the magic chicken thing though – that’s mocking presuppostionalists, and they’re fair game. xP
Yeah, I hear you loud and clear on the manipulation aspect, and if people think it’s more important to call that out then I’m happy to back off on the other issue. It’s a frustrating situation, and my main concern is making sure that it doesn’t repeat itself.
With their (or Rutee’s, since I haven’t seen anything DSC has written since) persecution complex, I’m pretty “meh” about fuelling it, since it’s been simmering away this whole time we’ve seldom mentioned the thing, and then only in the most tip-toeing way. If anyone actually reads the squillions of threads since then, and doesn’t do it from the Manboobz Martyrs’ perspective, I’d hope they get the drift that this is not some sort of homophobes’ haven.
They contributed to this being a hugely UNsafe place for some people, and damn uncomfortable for others. I’m glad to see it said. I’m also glad to see it pointed out that they aren’t some sort of official LGBTQ spokespeople. Funny how many LGBTQ folks are on this terrible homophobic site nowadays, isn’t it?
“short version: being in a minority group makes you entitled to do whatever you want, unless you’re asexual or multi”
*or less oppressed than the person doing whatever they want
The oppression olympics of it all bugged me. In general, and personally — I’m okay enough being read as my assigned gender, thus not oppressed, thus none of the oppression trans* people face…no nuance to it. But it’s been over a year, and I was still shaking the mothballs off, so idk how much that feeling was me being extra sensitive to the oppression trans* people face and trying not to be appropriative.
Heresy! All porridge should have milk, and if yours doesn’t then you hate people who eat porridge with milk just because they eat porridge with milk, which makes you a bigot. If you actually don’t enjoy being around those people because you find their personalities grating then that’s irrelevant, you probably just don’t like their personalities because they put milk in their porridge.
Don’t leave us in suspenders, what was the rest of the sentence? :D
Seconding Argenti: being the bigger person morphs too easily into letting bullies get away with it. “Ignore them and they’ll leave you alone.”
BTW, that was my main issue with the way things were going here pre-exodus, that it was implied or assumed that if you didn’t like Person X it must be because of their sexuality/gender identification and not because you just didn’t like them very much as people.
Sorry, hit comment too soon. I felt like the comment aimed at LBT, and some of the similar snark at kittehs, was more “you’re making us look bad” than anything else. Like if kittehs is allowed to talk about Mr Kittehs and LBT is allowed to talk about being multi it will damage the credibility of manbooz, or some shit like that.
“It’s a frustrating situation, and my main concern is making sure that it doesn’t repeat itself.”
Which is why I’ve long tiptoed around explicitly saying anything, for fear of refueling that fire. But idk, the sorts of complaints we’re airing seem like the sort of things that shouldn’t just be brushed under the rug. And, for that matter, noting that you should be able to question if something is oppressive or not, question whether a respected regular is being an asshole…idk, making it clear that this are things we should be able to do makes this a better place? Maybe?
I just know that I were being an asshole about something, I wouldn’t want people to feel like they couldn’t call me on it without being labelled a bigot.
Porridge, mmm …
But it has to have honey. Or else you’re the meanest meanie ever.
Athywren, I think you are an incredibly thoughtful and considerate person and I really appreciate you and your opinions about things.
In any case, please don’t call this topic to a close as I’ve already informed pecunium that we’re discussing it and he won’t be able to comment until later.
On that note, is there a middle ground between “we shouldn’t talk about this” and complaining about DSC and Rutee? Cuz that’s where I think this discussion belongs — on the general atmosphere pre-exodus.
Actually I’ve been lucky, nobody ‘cept a troll or two has tried anything on about Mr Kittehs. That’s one of the things I think is good about this site (apart from my specific bias, lol) – people are decent to each other here these days even if beliefs clash wildly, and the odd descent into assholishness gets called out pronto (and is often enough a mistake rather than intentional, so gets apologised for, too).
Part of my reluctance to bring this stuff up is that people like Ami whose opinions I do respect left too, which makes me wonder if the way I’m seeing things is wrong or there’s something that I’m missing.
Seconding what katz said, Athywren. :)
@ Argenti
Maybe talking in general terms rather than “X did Y” is the answer, though if everyone knows who we’re talking about anyway that feels passive-aggressive and sneaky.
Since Cassandra doesn’t want this to turn into a complaining fest, I’m going to turn it into an ass-kissing fest instead XD
From Ami’s comment in that forum thread, I’m not sure how related her leaving was. Sounded like…fuck how to word this…like she didn’t want the responsibility, and I don’t mean to imply anything negative there, just that being a secret room mod and well respected meant that her picking a side in anything would carry more weight than she was comfortable with.
Or like Cliff — left for, as far as I can tell, reasons related to MRAs beings taxing, not this mess.
Idk, I am, obviously, neither of them, but that’s the impression I get from their posts in that thread.
Trying to balance the fact that not everything is about me and being honest and respectful so I’m going to go ahead and say that I, like Blacbloc, left and came back as a part of that whole deal — complete with wanktastic woe-is-me I’m leaving speech — and if that makes anybody uncomfortable I won’t hang around like a creepy doesn’t-understand-boundaries person. And if talking about myself right now is really egocentric I apologize for that.
Eh, seeing things differently isn’t seeing them wrong.
Like Argenti said, I don’t think this stuff should be swept under the carpet, and while it’s obviously painful for some of those (at least) who were involved, I don’t like the idea of the instigators (if they read the blog at all, which I doubt) thinking the reason it’s not mentioned is because people feel guilty about it or something.
If everyone else wants to complain I don’t want to shut that down, just to be clear. I’m just worried about a. whether there’s something about this whole conflict that I missed in the first place and b. whether or not it’s fair to talk shit about people who can’t respond.
I had no idea you were involved, Viscaria!
But for what it’s worth, I’m glad you’re here.
Cassandra – talking about it in general terms would be too much like the veiled references that have cropped up now and then, to me. Plus since names have been named, it’d be sort of stable-doorish.
Cassandra — passive-aggressive maybe, but some of it wasn’t just those two. Like, idk if it’s me, but does this place feel more…silly? now?
Fuck, part of the change, where I no longer worry about Every Fucking Word being taken the wrong way is losing Owly.
And again, maybe it’s me, but we have meltdowns like BlackBloc’s and other people just carry on with what they were talking about — you don’t have to either go to another thread or get involved.
Or religion, while we’re (you and I, but others too) still wary of going there, it can be discussed without “religion is evil” being unquestioned.
@ Viscaria
Honestly, if we’re going to do this, I’d rather know why you felt like you needed to leave at the time (and why you changed your mind and came back). It’s the difference in perspective with people like you and Ami that worries me and makes me wonder if there’s some aspect of this whole mess that I’m not looking at right, because honestly, I was glad when DSC and Rutee left and I don’t miss them.
Viscaria — please stay! You were one of the people I missed when I came back post-exodus (FTR, I went on hiatus pre-exodus and missed everything coming to a head)
And personally, I’m sorta inclined to think that people who come back, and enjoy it here now, are a good thing — means we’ve improved right?
On Owly, see, that’s another difference in perspective, though in that case at least I think I understand the why of it. I kind of wish the eldertrolls were still around in a way because I quite enjoyed nomming on them, whereas with some people I think they found those guys really upsetting and therefore were relieved when they finally left. In this case I’m pretty sure the difference is down to privilege and it insulting me from a lot of the poo that the trolls used to fling around.
Argenti – it’s not just you, and it’s one of the things I like about this site. Like how katz mentioned Feministe, and for me Pharyngula was the same: watching every word because it’s Totes Serious and one mustn’t derail with a funny for more than 4.5 comments, or you’ll get modded.
I really don’t think this is talking shit about people. Observing that they were being assholes (a good reason to name names, imo, so there’s no mistake or generalisation) doesn’t strike me that way at all.
Insulating, not insulting.
Maybe? It wasn’t his take on trans* people that got to me though, it was him hounding me about whatever his latest gripe was Every Time I Commented. I mean, he’d follow me from thread to thread demanding I explain this or that statistic.
I’m in two minds about the eldertrolls. Some of the old threads are greatly entertaining (privilege insulation, too – good term) but I can’t generally be stuffed engaging with trolls and their walls o’ text anyway. They make my eyes glaze over.
Still, it’s something to throw at the junior wannabe trolls, that they’ll have to up their game. :)
In this case maybe the privilege is never having been in an abusive relationship? Or, I mean, I kind of was, but it didn’t last all that long. It seemed like people who’ve been in abusive relationships were the most likely to find Owly’s method of trolling super triggering.
::snork:: and then willfully misunderstand it anyway!
I wanted to support my friends who were leaving. I was also kind of disappointed at the way David was responding to criticism — though some of the criticism he was being hit with was way beyond okay, and I’m pretty sure I would have responded in a much less respectful way, so that was kind of hugely hypocritical at the time. It’s douchey for me to bring this up on your own site, David, because it makes it look like I’m saying you did something wrong, which you really didn’t. It was something I disapproved of a really long time ago, and my approval really doesn’t mean anything about whether something is okay or not. I just include it for the sake of completeness.
I came back because I missed the site and the people. I tried to make sure that I wasn’t stepping on any toes by doing so >.> but I might not have been as cautious about it as I should have been.
Hypocritical of me, I mean to say.
Insulation of some sort, at any rate, whether it’s something one could call privilege or just good fortune.
@ Viscaria
FWIW, I think pretty much everyone who was around before was happy when you came back.
Wanna hug, Viscaria?
(also anyone else in need)
On the overall shift in tone from very serious to more light, I don’t see that as a bad thing, and maybe it’s kind of natural? For a lot of people the MRA stuff is already so grim maybe adding in humor and kitten videos is what makes it possible to cope with reading it.
I’m pretty “meh” about fuelling it, since it’s been simmering away this whole time we’ve seldom mentioned the thing, and then only in the most tip-toeing way.
Yeah, I’m with Kittehs here. It’s been a YEAR, and obviously not talking about it didn’t make it go away. Also, it’s very easy to come to Manboobz and come to your own conclusions.
I’m not saying turning it into a bashfest, but I feel like never ever even SLIGHTLY discussing it except in the most eggshell way is kind of counterproductive. How can we keep something from happening again if we don’t even know what happened in the FIRST place?
Look, I don’t really give a shit about the people involved. I just feel better having some kind of clue about what happened.
RE: CassandraSays
Honestly, I feel like the comments aimed at LBT and kittehs have been more about not wanting
I think you got cut off here.
Thanks guys. I’m not upset at all, I don’t actually need hugs (though I always like them!) and I super didn’t want to make this about me; more just wanted to check that I wasn’t being rude and then bow out of the conversation. Talk to you guys later. :)
Kitty + bunny = AWWWWW
Yeah, I like the shift in silliness, being able to be silly is why I love this place :)
As for the insulation, you might be right, it was my inability to get away from him without leaving you all that got to me. Stalker ex I can, and have, blocked EVERYWHERE, but you can’t block an asshole on a blog (or can you? Should I look for a plug-in for this?)
Viscaria, you are a really nice, cool person and I like it when you are around.
One of the reasons this whole thing was so painful (to me) was that you and Ami kind of got caught in the middle, it felt like, and it was totally unfair and not your fault at all.
I wonder if there’s a way those of us who a troll isn’t getting to can help if something like that happens again.
Aha! I still have the compliment fishing trick down? Excellent.
*cough*
But… without the lulz, what is there? I really hate that attitude. I used to be a mod on one of the various facebook atheist groups (Lots of asshole atheists there btw… it’s funny how you never notice just how assholey they are while the other side is also being assholey. Then one woman gets in one lift at one hotel and fucking nuclear hell! I’m surrounded by utter assholes. WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?!) and one of the most common complaints, beyond the fact of our eating babies with every meal, was making jokes. “You know, you wouldn’t find this kind of language and attitude in a board room!” So… what? This is bookface! We are chatting! Sometimes we’re chatting about philosophy, or science, or politics, but we’re chatting. This is not spr srs bznz!
I’ve never understood the idea that jokes had no place in discussion of legitimate topics… and I hope I never will. Especially not now I’ve discovered the MRM, or that misogyny in general isn’t as dead as I’d once believed, because that stuff’s depressing as hell.
BTW, since we’re talking about days of yore, I really appreciate the way that a lot of people here had my back when Mr Al was being extra creepy.
I tend to email David when a troll’s getting under someone’s skin. The Dark Lord’s banned a few for that sort of personal attack.
The whole “This is a Serious thread” and “You’re allowed to be funny on this thread” stuff really doesn’t work for me. I love that we can laugh the trolls to oblivion, or wipe ‘em out with the power of Furrinati cuteness, or talk about bra sizes, or whatever. That the laughing and joking pisses them off is a bonus.
I’m not sure why Owly was given the slack he was, those involved in the exodus, that I can get why David wasn’t inclined to pick sides, they were all regulars. But Owly was a regular asshole, in both senses.
I wonder if nobody actually emailed David about Owly? Was asking for trolls to be banned much of a thing then?
I had to exercise great self-control not to say “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” to them in that thread.
Fuck, if we had to stay on topic I’d not be debating getting back to coding for Manboobz: The Magazining. Because
it’ dhabiit’d have never been suggested.On that note, I probably am going to disappear shortly, my brother picked C so comment formatting is next up :)
Oh he knew, you haven’t seen the thread where David let him go unmoderated and he went off on how we’re all fucking Jews? And I mean he went OFF.
I’m guessing maybe privilege again (and I’m including myself in the privileged group here, so this isn’t an attack). If the stuff that someone is saying isn’t upsetting you it can be easy to interpret that as “this stuff isn’t that upsetting”. Meller, for example, I never found upsetting even though the stuff he was saying was often appalling. Since David is a man there’s a lot of stuff that won’t bother him personally that might bother a woman, and while it’s awesome that he gets it most of the time without anyone having to point stuff out, it’s not surprising that sometimes some stuff may need to be pointed out. Plus, this place gets a lot of comments, and it’s unreasonable to expect him to pay close attention to all of them – stuff is going to slip through the cracks.
RE: Argenti
I’m okay enough being read as my assigned gender, thus not oppressed, thus none of the oppression trans* people face…no nuance to it.
Hey, some binary trans people handle misgendering better than others. I can deal with being misgendered, but I NEEDED surgery for my peace of mind. Trans issues aren’t as simple as that. Pretending they are is just foolishness.
RE: CassandraSays
if you didn’t like Person X it must be because of their sexuality/gender identification and not because you just didn’t like them very much as people.
*snorts* There are LOTS of trans queer multis I want nothing to do with, because they’re asshats.
it will damage the credibility of manbooz,
We’re a MOCKERY SITE. What credibility do we have? Also, last I checked, being queer had to do with being attracted to certain people, nothing else. IM HERE IN UR QUEERDOM, TAINTING YOUR QUEERPOOL.
a. whether there’s something about this whole conflict that I missed in the first place and b. whether or not it’s fair to talk shit about people who can’t respond.
With respect… that’s a fair wonder. But not talking about it won’t really ease that part of your mind. I dunno about you, but I’m actually feeling BETTER and less alarmed actually talking about it, even in generalities.
And Owly, I think, kind of became a cherished pillar of MBZ. A superfluous pillar blackened by fire that didn’t support any weight, but we were used to having him around, and a lot of people found him entertaining. I’m glad he’s gone.
Viscaria, one of the things I really regret is that there were real questions and issues that could have been addressed for real, including some questions about how David was handling stuff (especially forum stuff), but it all got reduced to “You did that because you hate queer people!”
So if there are outstanding things that you think were wrong, I think you should feel free to go ahead and say so and maybe we can take a calmer look at them now. (But not if you don’t want to, of course.)