About these ads

CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

Standard_adding_machine

Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

About these ads

Posted on October 29, 2013, in all about the menz, antifeminism, evil women, misogyny, MRA, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, sexual assault, TyphonBlue and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 990 Comments.

  1. For statistical debunkers, you may want to scroll back and look at a comment by Delurking Data Geek as well. Sounded interesting.

    Now, I’m trying to picture a scenario in which AVfMers are able to convince Paul Elam to reconsider his position on x, through thoughtful discussion and reasonable arguments.

    :: laughs so long and hard that she ruptures stomach muscles ::

    And this is why I love this place so much — and why MRAs/AVfM deserve only mockery.

  2. I’m putting together a list of links of resources for men for the sidebar — well, two lists, one of resources specifically for men, another for resources available regardless of gender.

    Just International, for example, is the best organization for men concerned with prison rape to get involved with, but it advocates for all victims regardless of gender, including trans* victims, who are disproportionately targeted, so I’m not including it in the “resources for men” list but rather in the “resources for all” list.

    I’d appreciate any suggestions that any of you have. Right now the list is American-centric; I may sprinkle some other resources in with the American ones or have a third list of international resources.

  3. Argenti Aertheri

    2) The same victims are repeatedly revictimised over their lifetimes.

    If it’s explanation 2, the most plausible explanation for repeated revictimisation of the same men is that it’s abusive behaviour within a long term relationship. So not just the same victims, but also same perpetrators, over and over again.

    This is deeply disturbing for anyone who cares about abused men, or anyone with basic empathy. It might also be deeply disturbing for the MRM, because this interpretation of the data means that the percentage of female perpetrators is nowhere near as high as they’d like it to be.

    Given the data on number of perpetrators, for men versus women, this seems quite likely, and is, in fact, part of how I arrived at my 19%~ — 71.2% of women reported only on perpetrator, versus 92.1% of men. So at the very least, men are more likely to be raped by one person. Now, I don’t recall if that was perpetrators per incident, or total (and will go check that) — but either way, far more men reported being raped by one person and unless the way it was worded means one person per attack, which allows for multiple rapes committed by multiple women, it certainly implies that men are more likely to be raped by the same woman than women are likely to be raped by the same man.

    Logic there — ignore the count of men and women raped by one perpetrator, focus on the inverse, the count raped by more than one perpetrator. For men, that number was too low to be reliable and I had to use 100% – [the percent raped by one perpetrator], for women it was nearly 30%. Which, no matter how you slice it, means women are probably more likely to be raped by multiple men over their lifetime (caveat, if it’s per incident, there’s the issue of whether they were the same men each time, and how that compares to the number of man raped by the same woman repeatedly)

    Give me a second to check the meaning of that variable and I’ll make this make more sense!

  4. katz’s age-related explanation doesn’t work here. That explanation could explain the lifetime numbers being higher than you’d naively expect based on 12 month numbers.

    There’s no way it could explain the lifetime numbers being *lower* unless the sample population was extremely implausibly skewed.

    The 12-month sample and the lifetime sample are very different in that the former excludes many victimizations that may have occurred at ages 17 and below, so I think the age-related explanation makes a lot of sense.

  5. Argenti Aertheri

    Yeah, ok, ignore everything about if that was one perpetrator per incident, it’s one perpetrator over the course of their lifetime.

    So 90%~ of male victims have one rapist, while 70%~ of female victims do — 20% more men than women have one rapist over the course of their lifetime. The inverse of that being that women are more likely to be raped by multiple men than men are likely to be raped by multiple women.

    Unfortunately they don’t say the rate of repeat victimization among men, but among women, 35.2% of those first raped before age 18 reported at least one other rape, and 14.2% of those whose first rape was after 18 reported another rape. And 29.9% where first raped at under 18, making the overall rate of repeat victimization among women 20%~, but it’s impossible to say, using this data, the rate of repeat victimization among men.

    Am I making sense? I haven’t had nearly enough coffee yet!

  6. Argenti Aertheri

    Ally — eh, sorta as, at least for women and male rape victims (not MtP, but CDC defined rape), age of first rape is skewed young. With just over 2/3rds of women reporting their first rape was before they were 25. So you’d need a fairly young population sample for the lifetime numbers to be lower than the 12-month as an older population would be more likely to have been raped at a younger age (more than a year ago), while a young population would be more likely to have been raped in the past year.

    Let me see if they have population data on ages, it’d help answer this.

  7. Argenti Aertheri

    Huh, damn. The ages are actually amazingly representative of the population at large, which is largely aged 30-64. Meaning that most of the sample, who were raped, would have likely been raped more than a year ago. Thus not explaining the difference between lifetime and 12 month data (page 112)

  8. Check out this:

    Most female victims of completed rape experienced their first rape before the
    age of 25 and almost half experienced their first completed rape before age 18.

    Half before 18 is a pretty sizable number.

  9. Argenti Aertheri

    Thanks Ally, must’ve found it right as you posted that! The genders, that looks off? That’s also just about the population as the US is 49%~ female and 51%~ male.

  10. Argenti Aertheri

    I think, from the data on page 35, that that means half of rape victims who experienced their first rape before age 25 (check out that pie chart for why). But either way, given the sample ages, that’d make most rapes not in the last year.

  11. Argenti Aertheri

    But yeah, from what I’m seeing here, this is correct (minus the naive part, since plenty of us don’t speak teh maths and nothing wrong with that!) — “That explanation could explain the lifetime numbers being higher than you’d naively expect based on 12 month numbers.”

  12. @Tamen, not bleak at all. I’d be thrilled to bits if the Illuminati turned up to comment.

    You may have noticed that we get a lot of trolls commenting – any newcomer is going to be regarded as a potential chew toy and I couldn’t tell if you were in earnest in your arguments or just trying to either distract from the MRA’s poor maths or cast doubt on the CDC’s stats.

    Must be frustrating for people with a genuine argument to make but that’s what happens when you come onto a mockery site to make that argument, rather than to a serious scoial justice site.

  13. This is only tangentially related to the topic at hand, but one of things I love about this place are all of the statistical takedowns of MRAs. I never thought statistics could be fun until I began frequenting this place and started seeing Argenti’s math stuff.

  14. Does anyone here happen to comment on The Guardian? Because this dude is making me feel exceptionally stabby.

    http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/28380115

    Every comment he’s made so far is infuriating, but this bit was particularly so.

    And I do take your point about ‘society norms’ and how it can get into girl’s heads that it’s somehow their fault, but that’s precisely why we need to say, as a society, ‘she did a silly thing, but he committed the heinous criminal act’. Now, to deal with it, let’s move on and dismiss her actions as inconsequential to the allocation of blame and punishment, let everyone know it is inconsequential, and then bring the full force of the law down on the rapist.

    Wouldn’t that be more sensible than saying a woman, wearing very skimpy clothing, drunk and passed out in an alley at 2am was actually acting in a perfectly reasonable and normal way?

    Given that we know that most rape victims are raped by people who they know…gosh, those women who’re hanging out at home with their boyfriends, or that old friend from college who’s in town on business, or who’re sharing a taxi home from a work event with a coworker, are so silly. And the ones who were raped by family members? Well, they should have had the good sense to be orphans, obviously.

  15. I really want the “She shouldn’t have done X because that’s why she was raped but I’m totes not blaming her for being raped!” folks to fuck off forever.

  16. Getting stabby is the appropriate response to that craptastic thinking.

  17. @Cassandra: Yep, let’s make sure everyone knows the victim has been duly judged, and then magnanimously let it drop.

    “Stabby” doesn’t begin to describe it.

  18. “Chip a dagger out of obsidian and play hide-and-seek in an exceptionally lumbering manner” might begin to describe it.

  19. The best part is that he admitted himself that most rape victims know their rapist and that the stranger-in-alleyway scenario is the exception rather than the rule…and then went on to write eleventy billion words about what women can do to avoid rape based in stranger-in-alleyway as the norm.

  20. Yeah, I’ve got “I’m not victim-blaming, but…” in the same mental box as “I’m not a racist/misogynist, but…”. I just immediately assume they are what they’re denying until I have evidence otherwise.

  21. Someone who’s not doing X doesn’t need to start their comment with “I’m not doing X, but…”

  22. Athywren — “I’m also really bad at keeping email conversations going… but I’m sure you haven’t noticed that!”…I really hadn’t.

    You wound me, ser! You wound me!

    But, as you know, I’ve been writing a WP theme from scratch and mmm PHP. It’ serving to keep me distracted (and I have yet to get the white page of death! [bad PHP all too often results in a white page, no errors like HTML or JS, no way to color code your way to finding your fuck up like CSS, nada, nothing, white page of death])

    Of course you don’t get an error – there’s nothing to return an error unless it prints something, and it won’t print unless it’s properly coded… damn you, semicolons!
    I used to use cpad, which did colour code most things, and made sure to keep things well tabbed so it didn’t get too confusing to scan through… but this is probably teaching you to suck eggs, so I’ll hush up now. Of course, it gets confusing when they get too nested.
    I’d offer to help with that, but it’s almost a decade since I used php with intent, and code is like cooking – too many cooks, etc etc. Though, if you do have any pieces you want to outsource for any reason, you know where I am. :)

    Now, I’m trying to picture a scenario in which AVfMers are able to convince Paul Elam to reconsider his position on x, through thoughtful discussion and reasonable arguments.

    :: laughs so long and hard that she ruptures stomach muscles ::

    And this is why I love this place so much — and why MRAs/AVfM deserve only mockery.

    It’s funny, isn’t it? When we agree, it shows we’re dogmatic. When we disagree, it show we’re dogmatic. When we discuss our disagreements and come to an agreement, it shows we’re dogmatic. It’s almost as if their conclusion is more important than the evidence. :P

  23. @athywren: We can’t be dogmatic, we’re weasels in cat suits in a David suit. Dogs would go crazy anywhere near us.

  24. It is so frustrating reading the comments after the article that @cassandrasays links to.

    Article: We can raise boys not to be rapists and here’s the evidence.
    Comments: We’ll completely ignore that because we’d rather discuss victim-blaming.

    Aaagh

  25. @titianblue: Didn’t you realize? The Internet Poo-Flinging Howler Monkeys give clicks. Clicks mean revenue, right? That’s not an outdated business model at all. Anyway, since clicks = revenue, IPFHMs (copyright 2013 CassandraSays) now Own Your Ass and you will write about what they want you to write about.

    cf. all those trolls who come in here demanding David write about their pet issues, when they’re not saying “Call yourself a journalist?!”

  26. Falconer, Love your new (?) avatar.

  27. Thank you! It’s Halloween, I thought I ought to honor the occasion. Does that make me weasels in cat suits in a David suit in a rubber suit? SUITCEPTION!!

    Last year I “dressed up” my avatar as Minsc from Baldur’s Gate, briefly. I don’t recall anyone noticing, and then I had second thoughts because Minsc is neuroatypical.

  28. Someone who’s not doing X doesn’t need to start their comment with “I’m not doing X, but…”

    Let’s test this theory.

    “I’m not a cannibal, but you have to agree that people taste pretty darn good if you cook them right.”

    “I’m not a goblin, but you certainly must agree that stealing babies in the night is the most rewarding hobby ever.”

    “Now, nobody could ever accuse me of being an elf, but you have to admit that pointy ears are the best kind of ears. And bows are awesome.”

    Hmm.

  29. “You wound me, ser! You wound me!”

    Nawh, I didn’t notice cuz I do the same. And I code in notepad/TextEdit and dear gods yes to fucking indents!

    Also WP’s comments.php functions are hellish.

  30. Ehh…

    “I’m not a woman but I like skirts”? Stuff with gender roles could break that template.

  31. I’m not Napoleon, but I do have a thing for controlling all of Europe under my iron fist.

  32. GODWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

  33. delurking data geek

    fyi, I was using “naive” in a nonjudgemental way, to refer to a calculation without obvious necessary adjustments, not to people.
    this is as close as I can find to a definition in this kind of context! http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/na-ve-forecasting.html

    As for the age thing.. the fact that under 18s are victimised but not surveyed is the exact reason I said that lifetime numbers could skew higher but not lower than naively (in the nonjudgemental sense again) expected.

  34. Delurking data geek: The actual values couldn’t skew lower, but I-forget-which-troll was discounting the lifetime numbers because of the ratio:

    Argent I could care less about the lifetime data because the ratio is heavily skewed in favor for women for reasons that are completely unknown.

    The male:female ratio could skew lower if the age factor was more pronounced for women than for men.

  35. delurking data geek

    katz: That is a legit possibility! I didn’t pick up that part of the context of your posts. Apologies for misunderstanding.

    So to summarise, the possible explanations for the discrepancy in ratios are:

    1) women disproportionately more likely to be victimised as children (which we already know to be true)
    2) men are disproportionately repeat victims.
    3) the “victims just forget about MTP assaults” hypothesis, which seems even less likely now it’s competing with two alternative hypotheses.

    OK, that all seems much clearer now. Thanks for helping me understand it!

  36. My favorite part of the troll’s comments about lifetime figures versus figures for one year is the idea that if the lifetime figures show women being raped more often, well, who cares? He doesn’t like that data, so obviously it’s wrong.

  37. I failed to cite the context so it’s my own fault; a lot of people were bouncing around a lot of different numbers.

    And then of course there are the “this year is non-representational” factors (titianblue mentioned these): Either random or systematic.

  38. @argenti or anyone who can speak better about this hi. im sorry to bother you but when i asked questions to typhonblue about her analysis, i received this comment genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/#comment-119299 and i have some questions?
    1. does ‘raw data’ mean the numbers of people raped w/o other factors like rate, age, etc. or does it mean something else?
    2. past the first paragraph im confused what theyre trying to say. i think overall they have a problem w/ either that blair came up with ‘37% of female rapists’ and rounded up to 40% or that argenti came up w/ ‘20%’ and doesn’t know why? im following argenti’s math from a few pages back and i dont understand? did adiabat mean they extrapolated from the 12 month numbers wrong?
    again sorry for asking such questions. hope everyone has a happy and safe halloween.

  39. That Guardian thread is still making flames come out of my ears.

    Like the first poster, I was taught to respect women. I’ve never taken advantage of a drunk woman, even when I’ve been under the influence. I would suggest that I am part of the majority. There are those however who are caught up in a lifestyle or a background where that is not the case and they fall victim to the rape scenario.

    Yep, in a situation where a man rapes a woman it’s definitely the man who’s the real victim. It’s the scenario, you see – he can’t help but play his part.

  40. There are those however who are caught up in a lifestyle or a background where that is not the case

    Actually, the whole ‘benevolent sexism’ of ‘respecting women’ is a good predictor of having nasty misogyny and stuff… so, no. No, it’s those just like you who are, in fact, the problem.

  41. Wow, uh, awesome formatting there. That first sentence should read “Here’s another post on tumblr about…”

  42. delurking data geek

    The raw data would be every recorded answer to every individual question on every survey, no analysis whatsoever.

    I haven’t looked at this survey in detail, but in general, there is potential for serious privacy issues with publishing raw data in a survey like this because people might be able to figure out information pertaining to the identity of the respondents by examining all their answers to the questions. People take steps to make respondents anonymous where raw survey data is published but sometimes that could be inadequate. Frankly the idea of raw data on crime victimisation being released to the MRM gives me chills. They’d decide that anonymous respondent #32477 was lying on the survey because of women’s genetic compulsion to make false rape accusations, then they’d use half-assed mob logic to decide some random woman on facebook was respondent #32477, then they’d hound said random woman to the point where she feared for her life.

    The third paragraph is basically bullshit. They’re complaining that they haven’t got better information, and that’s the CDC’s fault (there’s an amusing implication that this is because of the feminazi conspiracy but I am PART of the feminazi conspiracy and I know for a fact we didn’t do this and we have no direct control over the CDC) so they’ll keep pretending the number they pulled out of their ass is the truth because no one will tell them the truth and that simply isn’t fair. The CDC is forcing them to be full of crap! They are MRAs, nothing they do is ever their own fault.

    Keep in mind that even with the raw data, a survey of crime victims simply can’t give them the information they want about perpetrators. And even without the raw data, there was no reason for them to latch onto the past-year number instead of the lifetime number, other than the obvious reason that the past-year data gave them an answer they liked once plugged into their bullshit calculation.

  43. OK, so none of the other data supports the conclusions that I’ve drawn from the 2010 data, but as an MRA I really like those conclusions so obviously all the other data is wrong. My confirmation bias, let me show you it.

  44. @nilvoid

    The Widom and Morris study that Typhonblue cites is useless for these reasons:

    1. The survey was conducted within the context of a 2-hour in-person interview. It is likely, then, that what caused the relative disinclination to disclose abuse was the presence of the interviewer. It’s possible that the male respondents felt less comfortable talking to someone in person about child sexual abuse. An anonymous survey could have yielded different results.

    2. It only screened for child sexual abuse. That is a problem because the NISVS only had respondents of ages 18 and above; the 12-month figures, therefore, miss a significant number of child sexual abuse incidents, to which the Widom and Morris study could be applied. But it can’t be applied to the 12-month figures because not all child sexual abuse victims are 17 (the youngest possible age of victimization that could be found in the 12-month figures).

    3. A quick Google search led me to a criticism of the Widom and Morris study that basically states that the study never actually checked whether the documented cases of sexual abuse were the exact same incidents that the respondents disclosed to the interviewer(s). That means that the data was unreliable from the start.

    4. Even if the Widom and Morris study did not suffer from any major methodological flaws and served as valid evidence that the lifetime figures are unreliable, its use would be limited.
    In particular, you can’t simply throw away the lifetime rates and deem them unreliable and then gather data from the lifetime rates (in this case, the lifetime figures on the sex of the perpetrators reported by the respondents) to make a conclusion about the 12-month rates.
    In other words, if you think that one data set is non-representative, then using information about that data set and applying it to an actually representative data set is complete nonsense.

  45. Ew, my previous comment’s last paragraph is ugly. x_x

  46. That study TyphonBlue cites, does anyone know if they made any attempt to account for the people who didn’t say but did remember it? Cuz didn’t mention what I wanted them to =/= doesn’t remember the incident.

  47. Argenti, so far as I can tell, all they did was get a group of people with official documented cases of child sexual abuse and then ask them through 3 or 4 surveys asking them questions like “Has anyone ever done [act X] to you when you were young?” (paraphrasing there). Nothing beyond that.

  48. It only screened for child sexual abuse. That is a problem because the NISVS only had respondents of ages 18 and above; the 12-month figures, therefore, miss a significant number of child sexual abuse incidents, to which the Widom and Morris study could be applied. But it can’t be applied to the 12-month figures because not all child sexual abuse victims are 17 (the youngest possible age of victimization that could be found in the 12-month figures).

    Wait, what? So they got respondents who might be 20, 30, or 40, and asked them “were you abused as a minor in the past 12 months?”

  49. Katz, the Widom and Morris study asked them about whether they have been sexually abused in their childhood – no questions about what happened within the last 12 months.

  50. Katz — no, that’s kinda the point. The other study only screened for child sexual abuse, so who knows if it applies the the CDC study where only a tiny percent of respondents would’ve been minors in that 12 month period.

  51. Oh, OK, they collected lifetime data, people are just using 12-month figures gleaned from their study?

  52. Ninja’ed by the person being asked, whoops!

    (My mother just went “OO A PIECE OF CANDY” — we’re sitting on the porch with the bowl between us, this is about as exciting as “OO MY FINGERS”)

  53. Or rather, applying conclusions drawn from their study to the 12-month data.

  54. Sorry if I was unclear, katz. Basically, Typonblue is using child sexual abuse disclosure data from the Widom and Morris study (which measured only lifetime incidence) to invalidate the lifetime figure of female-on-male rape found in the NISVS report. The idea here is that men were less likely to disclose sexual assault experiences in the NISVS and that’s why the lifetime rates show a higher female victimization figure. Therefore, the lifetime rates are inaccurate and the 12-month ones must be used instead, according to her.

  55. @Ally S thanks for the reply, I thought it was something along those lines.

  56. thenatfantastic

    While I barely understand any statistical arguments here, I do know a bit about bad methodology and I just wanted to ask how these bad papers get published in the first place? Like, if we as lay academics can point to everything that’s wrong with a methodology (right word?), then why in the hell can’t they realise it’s silly or unrepresentative or whatever? Or the peer reviewers? Or the people that gave them the OK in the first place? Is this some quirk of academia I don’t understand?

  57. Well different journals have different standards. Granted, papers with poor methodology or whatever might slip by often enough in well-respected journals due to laziness on the part of reviewers or unfamiliarity with the topic of the paper on the part of the same, but there’re tons of journals that don’t really give too many shits, or were founded with the intent of bolstering any “science” that “proves” a point they support.

    When you get right down to it, basically anyone can start a journal with a pompous, important-sounding name. Hell, you can even make money doing that, both via the more innocuous route of charging people to read, and the more side-eye-worthy option of selling article slots to people who want their bunk science published in your journal.

  58. Well, not everyone can have the editorial standards of Pres. J. Sci. Psych.

  59. “methodology (right word?)”

    Yep.

    Katz — idk, psychology today might have more rigorous standards.

  60. hi again and sorry for bothering you all. i should’ve taken it as a sign that this thread was laid to rest for a day now, but ive been familiarizing myself w/ statistical math and received this comment from adiabat; genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/#comment-120073
    @delurking data geek thank you for your response, adiabat claimed that if the cdc were to even release raw data it would be anonymous, but would it still run the risk of being very uncomfortable that their personal uncensored details would be out and scrutinized by public? and wouldn’t they still remain anonymous by not completely disclosing everything to the surveyors?
    @n im sorry i don’t know what an outlier is and how its applied here.

  61. Wow, the people there are just dense. Literally every single argument from the MRAs has been addressed in this thread, but adiabat’s all like “WELL HEY LOOK AT THAT THEY STILL CAN’T BEAT OUR SUPERIOR REASONING BECAUSE SOME ARGUMENTS HAVEN’T BEEN REFUTED!”

  62. Also, adiabat just referred to Argenti as “he” in one comment. What a piece of shit.

  63. Ally — eh, whatever, I’m always amused by what people assume my gender to be. Going to have to read it if I’m being talked about though!

    Hannasoumaki — their names and phone numbers and such would be private, but there was state by state data in parts of it, plus age, gender, that sort of thing. Probably not enough to ID someone unless you already know how they’d answer at least some questions, in which case you’re presumably already close, but it wouldn’t stop MRAs from going “oh I bet the woman in this state is that woman who made that false rape accusation, she’s the right age!” and then hound some random person they decided was that woman. They are kinda notorious for their absolutely shitty fact finding skills and targeting the wrong person and then deciding that oh well, she’s a woman and thus must’ve done something.

  64. Ah, well it’s good that it didn’t bother you. I’m just sensitive to anti-feminist folks misgendering people because 9/10 they’re deliberately being assholes.

  65. Did they ever apologize to the last person whose identity they got wrong?

  66. Also, check out this gem from one of adiabat’s comments:

    “Tamen is the residnet expert on the CDC report”

    Quite a comedian.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 8,497 other followers

%d bloggers like this: