CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data
Posted by David Futrelle

Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
Posted on October 29, 2013, in all about the menz, antifeminism, evil women, misogyny, MRA, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, sexual assault, TyphonBlue and tagged anti-feminism, antifeminism, cdc, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, NISVS, rape, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 990 Comments.








Blair — toss a caveat about having to guess at that 1/5th thing in there and yeah, that’ same valid statement. Give me a minute to grab a real computer (I’m on my iPad) and I’ll do the math using the lifetime data.
“And, correct me if I’m wrong, but multiplying a percentage with a whole number gives you garbage, right?”
Depends on context. Like, the survey, 1,640 replies, ~60% (off the top of my head, it might be a smidge more) are cis women, you can multiply those for the number of replies from cis women. You need the variables to relate properly though, which is the issue with lifetime perpetrator state being applied to 12 month data.
Howard, no, that’s pretty much exactly what he said. He never said it was less, or more, serious, he did say that made to penetrate is not, in his opinion, rape, that it is sexual violence. I am absolutely *not* misrepresenting. I could quote everything he said on this, but the fact is that this one specific statement of belief is, in my opinion, damaging and hurtful to survivors who were MTP and that is why I have focused on it. And yes, I know men who have been raped, molested, sexually assaulted, abused. They can define/quantify their experiences in any way they want, as can women, but we can still define “rape” for legal and ethical purposes.
Blair, can you please use blockquotes, or quotation marks, or something! your comments are impossible to read. I can’t tell what you’re saying and what’s being quoted.
And regardless, there’s already been a takedown of the numbers. the 40% figure is wrong.
Argent I could care less about the lifetime data because the ratio is heavily skewed in favor for women for reasons that are completely unknown. If we conduct this study every year and always get 30-40% of rape victims were raped by women, you best have a VERY good reason to stand behind a lifetime rate that is 18x larger than the 12 month rate vs men’s 5x larger ratio. That is 3x the magnitude difference. It simply does not make sense, the number doesn’t pass the bs alarm. I’m not going to make any inference about which rates may be understated or overstated, I just think there is no problem looking at the issue from an annual perspective because rape incidences will be fresh on the minds of those surveyed, and are also more likely prosecutable aswell.
When you do your lifetime math, and it’ll be easy to do, I’d like to see you back up the lifetime:12 month discrepancy with some facts, because I’m not seeing how such a discrepancy is possible… Just rolling with it is poor practice and is indicative of the shoddy work put in by the researchers. All anomalies in the data should at least be noted, not ignored. Who gave these people a degree?
Blair, bro, do you even math?
And this is why no thinking person should take you seriously, you dishonest chucklefuck.
So, Blair pretty much just admitted he’s ignoring lifetime data because it doesn’t give him the results he wants, right?
Firstly, “in favor.”
Secondly, “unknown.”
Lastly, fuck you.
…and I think you’re missing my point.
Okay.
I’ll just take a breather and come back to this when I feel a little less emotionally charged about it. Sorry.
please explain how you know this. kthx.
Which we haven’t
Which we haven’t
Except you did
A) rape doesn’t exactly go away from the memory
B) lifetime stats are more accurate, the larger the population the more accurate the number, that’s true of all studies – it’s why a study of 1000 people will trump a study of 100 people when they get two different results
Kinda irrelevant, not sure why this is even mentioned. And also inaccurate, once any amount of time has passed where physical evidence is gone (assuming there was any to begin with), you don’t have a higher chance of prosecuting regardless of if it was 1 year or 10 years.
I don’t even math and I know this shit. Come on, you’re just being lazy.
Howard, I am so sorry, clearly I am missing your point. Anytime.
If I misread your comment, I apologize, but my criticisms are still relevant; you said this:
You made it sound like the CDC only had one argument against the MRAs. They didn’t, hence my reply.
It’s too bad that you need the lifetime data to, you know, make the claim about 40% of rapes being perpetrated by female rapists because the statistics on the sex of the perpetrators are based on lifetime data. You can’t be this dense.
Well, I did the math, because I don’t hit refresh while doing math, and fuck, I like math!
So then, warning, long. The non-math-inclined should skip to the last two lines.
Women raped using lifetime data –14,617,000
Men MTP using lifetime data — 5,451,000
Number of perpetrator(s) reported by women —
1 – 71.2%
2 – 16.4%
3+ – 12.4%
98.1% male
Number of perpetrator(s) reported by men —
1 — 92.1%
2+ — unknown (assuming 100% – 92.1%)
79.2% female
Total Number of Rapes Against Women (number of women raped * percent with X rapists * X)
14617000 * .712 = 10407304
14617000 * .164 = 2397188 * 2 = 4794376
14617000 * .124 = 1812508 * 3 = 5437524
10407304 + 4794376 + 5437524 = at least 20,639,204 rapes against women
20639204 * .981 = 20,247,059~ of them by men
20639204 – 20247059 = 392,145 by women
Total Number of Rapes Against Men (number of men raped * percent with X rapists * X)
5451000 * .921 = 5020371
5451000 * (1-0.921) = 430629 * 2 = 861258
5020371 + 861258 = at least 5,881,629 rapes against men
5881629 * .792 = 4,658,250~ of them by women
5881629 – 4658250 = 1,223,379 of them by men
Total Number of Rapes Committed by Gender
5,881,629 (total number of rapes against men) + 20,639,204 (total number of rapes against women) = 26,520,833
392,145 (female on female) + 4,658,250 (female on male) = 5,050,395 rapes committed by women
20,247,059 (male on female) + 1,223,379 (male on male) = 21,470,438 rapes committed by men
5,050,395 / 26,520,833 = 19%~ of rapes are committed by women (note that because of repeat offenders, this does not mean that 19%~ of rapists are women, it does mean that 2010 was an outlier though)
The remaining 81% were, of course, committed by men.
And they did explain why both time frames were surveyed, and that answer implies why there is such a difference —
Page 22. So no, the 12 month data does not tell you shit about the number of rapes committed by women, it could tell you the number of rapes committed by women over those 12 months, if we had the stats on perpetrators over those 12 months, but we don’t, and thus it doesn’t.
This article makes me upset. I was raped by a woman before, and I can’t tell a soul because people assume I’m an MRA and start attacking me. Same thing with my ex-wife whomping the living crap out of me every time I wouldn’t do what she told me to, they assume I’m an MRA and start telling me I deserve it because I “hate women”.
I wish I haven’t read this article, because it brought up old memories and pain and there is no way for me to express it, I just have to sit on it and let it fester…
Toy Soldier, that asshat, is even trying to use LBT’s comment here against him. Gah, he is seriously the most dishonest asshat with a blog.
http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/a-dose-of-stupid-v95/
Pingback? Pretty damned good takedown of this piece by toysoldier.
Also, this article is hardly surprising. Both the MRM and many mainstream feminist groups have noted the male rape apologism here.
Damned good takedown? Take a look at this shit:
v_v Oh, Toy Soldier.
Oh, and it seems like /r/againstmensrights is defending this piece as well, so I guess we’ll be seeing this article on Jezebel soon?
Joseph M. Ama — I’m sorry, for what little it’s probably worth, I’ve known men raped by envelopment who said feminists were the only ones to believe them. It’s really too bad the MRM is making people accuse you instead.
And I’m failing my duties according to my feline overlady.
I find this a bit hard to believe because I’ve never met anyone in real life that actually knows MRAs exist, or would think you deserve domestic violence because you “hate women” (more likely other bullshit like “but you’re bigger, couldn’t you leave?” GRRR)
But assuming at least the main details are true, I’m really sorry people are so shit. I would seriously recommend calling a rape or domestic violence hotline: they are trained to help men too, and may be able to recommend a free or cheap counselling service specialising in male survivors.
Do you have any close friends you could talk to? People may be ignorant of female on male rape, but not everyone is a victim-blaming arsehole. Definitely not saying you should share it unless you feel safe with them.
I’ll say it: your rape was as real and unacceptable as any other rape. You did not deserve to be hurt by your ex-wife or by any other woman. You are allowed to feel scared, or unhappy, or angry. Your rapist and abuser are bad people, and nothing you have done could justify their actions.
Please do find someone in real life to talk to. You are not alone.
You mean because David thinks MTP is a serious sexual assault that he doesn’t define as rape but think should be punished as severely? Or because the majority of the commenters here are disagreeing with David and think it should be classified as rape? Maybe you could define what “rape apologism” is, since MRAs literally don’t think such a thing exists when it involves women being raped?
(And on r/amr, both non-MRA commenters think MTP should be counted as rape, but nice try!)
@Joseph M. Ama
I’m very sorry to hear about your experiences and the fact that you were distressed by the article. I haven’t seen what you have seen, but that kind of minimization is inexcusable and ignorant. There’s a clear line between being pissed off at MRAs and erasing male victims, and the fact that some people choose to ignore that is horrible.
How is a discrepancy possible? Because criminals do not run to a quota.
@Shaun
I see your point, but I don’t think that the word the law uses determines whether something is legitimised. I think the penalties determine the legitimacy or severity, regardless of the label. I absolutely agree that we should call it rape, and we should make that the term that we use for any of these offences… I just think that consistent penalties are more important than using the same label as far as laws are concerned.
Joseph: We take it very seriously that you were raped. It’s a major problem that there’s such a widespread idea that men can’t be raped, or must have wanted it.
“Argent I could care less about the lifetime data because the ratio is heavily skewed in favor for women for reasons that are completely unknown.”
What did I just read.
@Joseph, I didn’t see your comment. I’m very sorry you were raped and abused in that way, and then let down by people you approached for support. That shouldn’t happen to anyone.
((Sheepishly unflouncing))
For those who want to learn more about statistics, but don’t like math, I recommend “How to Lie With Statistics” by Darrell Huff.
It is a very short book, and extremely helpful in outlining many common mistakes made when citing statistics. I personally love both math and statistics, and I think understanding the underlying math is much less important than recognizing how subtle and unintuitive stats can be. Even experienced statisticians can misread their own data. The MRAs making the 40% claim are a great example of people who can do math, but don’t understand how to use it.
But honestly, it’s a red herring. Because any reasonable person would support a good-faith campaign to raise awareness of infant abandonment, and/or a campaign to increase awareness that MTP is wrong, illegal, and should be stopped (and yes, by all means, make posters that show women as perpetrators). That’s because reasonable people want to reduce levels of violence, rather than complain that other people get to commit all types of fun violence without commensurate repercussions. It’s not about making violence “fair.” It’s about preventing it and supporting survivors.
((Re-flounce))
@joseph
That’s horrible. Even if you did hate women (which I don’t think you do from what you’ve said) nobody deserves that. I don’t know if you’re the kind of person who likes virtual hugs, but if you do, you can have some from me.
Joseph M. Ama: I definitely hope you can find someone to talk to about this safely; as others above suggested, rape hotlines do some good work here. What happened to you was wrong, not your fault, and vile; the victim blaming and derailing you describe (“I was raped” “You must be an MRA”) is also wrong and vile, and should stop immediately.
David: I do think you might want to ask for a time-out on the “MTP =/= Rape” discussion, and reconsider your position. Look, specifically, at your own words–that MTP is statutory rape if it involves a minor. Since the whole purpose of the statutory rape category is that a certain segment of society is unable to legally consent, then it follows that other common steps steps to remove consent (drugs/alcohol/unconsciousness, threats/coercion, or physical force) would also qualify MtP as ‘rape’.
It may (at times) be useful in academic discussions of the topic to differentiate between MtP and Penetrative Rape; there may be further insights into addressing the issue by going into that level of detail. But yes, I’d say you’re making a considerable error in resisting the ‘rape’ label for MtP.
Joseph M Ama: I’m sorry. Of course what happened to you was rape and abuse, and it is wrong. Whoever said you deserved it is wrong and an asshole.
Argenti: Thanks! I think your math lessons are cool.
“The MRAs making the 40% claim are a great example of people who can do math, but don’t understand how to use it.”
But… They failed the math.
Argenti will have to come correct my math, but there would be a discrepancy between lifetime and 12-month data if there’s a certain age that’s at a higher risk than other ages.
With made-up numbers, say every woman got raped at age 20 (100% chance) and nobody got raped at any other age (0% chance). If you gathered data from a mixed-age group, the number of rape victims would be the number of 20-year-olds (~2%). Based on a 2% chance of being raped in a 12-month period, you’d calculate a lifetime chance of being raped of about 22% (based on a life expectancy of 80 years). But the actual chance would be 100% for anyone over 20.
OTOH, if you had the exact same chance of being raped each year regardless of your age, then the lifetime risk based on 12-month data would be correct.
Meanwhile, r/mr has discovered this post.
Katz is correct, both in terms of he math, and at least part of the actual problem — age is a factor in your overall risk of being raped. And thanks sparky!
Hooray, my math is correct!
So one way the lifetime numbers could be more different than the 12-month numbers for women than they are for men would be if the age factor were more pronounced for women. (I don’t know any reason why that would be true, but if it were, it would affect the results.)
@katz, That would be an interesting avenue to pursue, if only to rule it out.
Even though I am still not good at statistics, I have learned so much more about it by exposure to Argenti and other manboobzers.
Well, mostly correct, I’m not sure 22% is right, but it’s moot. I just double checked and lifetime risk, from annual data, for this, would be…
Population / number of rape victims * life expectancy
But yes, you’d get less than 100% and that would be wrong.
As for your guess about age, a perhaps more likely explanation is that the men they surveyed were, on average, younger than the women.
Just leaving this here in case there’s someone reading who doesn’t know about it and could use it: http://malesurvivor.org.
Using 3 million for population (I’m not checking this one), a 50/50 gender split, and 80 year life expectancy, katz’s hypothetical would predict a…
3m/2=1.5m*.02=30k rapes
1.5m/30k=50*80=4k
1 in 4,000 chance of being rape if you’re a woman in katz’s hypothetical world. Which is a 0.025% risk. (Well, sorta, you’d have to factor in everyone over 20 and the 100% rate among them)
oh that’s a good link. Hey Dave, do you think that ‘actual resources for men’ might be a worthy addition to the sidebar? I know it’s pretty chockablock as is, but it seems like a good thing to have a collection of
and I’m pretty sure that we, as a community, know a lot more about resources for men in need than the MRM does.
inurashii, that’s a great idea. Jaclyn Friedman listed some in her recent article, too.
Or if the sidebar is too cluttered, maybe Actual Resources for Men could be its own page, like the FAQ, Glossary, etc.?
Is there a difference in the age breakdown by gender at all?
I’m with cloudiah here.
Katz — sorta?
That’s for rape though, not made to penetrate.
Thirding cloudiah’s idea btw.
Yes to cloudiah’s idea. Should we start a list in this thread?
Grumpycat’s link: http://malesurvivor.org (services for male survivors of sexual assault)
From Jaclyn Friedman’s article: http://prospect.org/article/good-mens-rights-movement-hard-find
http://www.justdetention.org/ (ending prison rape)
servicewomen.org (ending rape in the military for men and women)
http://www.samaritansusa.org/ (Suicide prevention)
*note, I typed this up really fast as I need to start cooking dinner, so my wording may not be perfect
that should be http://servicewomen.org/ above
I will happily post a list of resources in the sidebar.
Grumpycat, were you the person asking earlier about that emergency room rape victim advocacy organization my friend is involved with? It’s rapevictimadvocates.org, which is local to Chicago, but my friend says there are groups like it all over, and that you might check with the YWCA in your area because they do it a lot as well.
As well as the possible effect of different variations by age, depending on gender, there is also the possibility of different improvements/worsenings of the incidences of rape experienced by gender of time.
So it may be, for example, that there are fewer women being raped now than there were 40 years ago but more men. Thus the lifetime rate for men could be lower while the current one year rate is similar.
Alternatively, 2010 could be a freak year.
This is why, ideally, CDC will continue with the research to highlight trends (& hopefully gain insight into the underlying causes of any improvements).
@argenti and ally s, thank you for the responses hopefully when i forward this to syabm i will also learn to understand some of it as well… there is also 1in6.org as a male victim source, if no ones listed it already.
@cloudiah thank you for the link. does anyone else think khanacademy.org is a good learning source? i just found an intro to stats there.
@Tamen re data collection, you are correct & I apologise. It is quite possibly historical prejudices that have led to the distinction but there may be other reasons – have you asked the researchers to clarify why they set their definitions as they did?
Can I ask what you are trying to achieve on this site? Most of the commentators have agreed with you that MTP should be classed as rape and those that don’t appear to regard it as an equivalent violation. It would be difficult to find a community more united in our condemnation of these types of crimes, regardless of the gender of the victim or the perpetrator. As you can see, our immediate reaction is to see what we can do to help victims. Beyond trying to force people to change their view on what is basically a question of semantics, what more is there?
Why are you referring to a tumblr that, judging by your nym, you own as if it belonged to someone else?
@cassandrasays no the direct link does lead to my own tumblr. the “egalitarian” i referred to was siryouarebeingmocked, whose original critique of this post i reblogged and replied to. sorry for the confusion
All that tumblr is is just stuff about this article. Troll or not?
David, thanks, yes, that was me who asked earlier. The YWCA in my area is the place I’ve already contacted. I’ll need to wait until they schedule their winter training to see if it’s something I can fit in. The trouble is mostly that some of their sessions take place on Saturdays and I work most Saturdays (occupational hazard of librarianship). Anyway, thanks again to everyone who has given me some more insider info into this kind of endeavor.
@hellkell i normally watched tumblr before using a friends account for a long time, but mostly because i was cultivating interested in feminist and egalitarian topics on that site. i didn’t make a tumblr before b/c i was very unsure of my debate skills. when i saw syabm remarking on this post i was very overwhelmed and wanted to see both sides analyze it. i had seen the “40%” stat on tumblr before but there were also very ambivalent opinions about it as well. i was hoping to see a middle ground between the two sides.
Sometimes there is no middle ground, and not every side to an issue has to have equal weight.
@Titianblue, I interpreted their comment about why they gathered the 12 month data to indicate they intended to follow it over time going forward.
Aside from that, I would think a major factor contributing to the discrepancy may simply be that from all evidence, the rate of rapes has been going down, if I remember correctly. That has mostly been measured in the realm of men assaulting women, and if that number has been going down far more quickly than the number of men being assaulted, it could be part of the reason the numbers split like they do.
@hellkell this is true. then, i guess i wanted to see and learn from the fact checking behind these stats and see which side was right once and for all. i think ill be adding more to the tumblr later. though i doubt it’ll be for leisure anymore …
If you find out that someone had non-consensual sex with someone else, and you need to know the gender of each participant (and whether they were the victim or assailant) before you can decide if it’s rape or not, there’s something seriously wrong with you.
“Please read my blog/tumblr” links dropped into a serious conversation are always bad netiquette, imo, unless they a. add something substantial to the conversation and b. contain an argument so lengthy and complicated that there’s no point restating it.
@cassandra says i apologize, i think people may have misunderstood. i was not trying to promote myself in the midst of this discussion. i only briefly linked to my post which was a reblog of the critique that originally brought me here. was hoping to see what others thought of what syabm had to say, b/c he represented the many egalitarians i saw who supported that statistic while many commenters here seemed to represent what many feminists dispute about it.
i admit i am not adding anything new or eye opining to the discussion. i am a student. my voice in these subjects is very weak and underdeveloped. i was hoping to study the process behind the stats and hopefully make my own informed opinion int the future.
Holy broken shift key!
(hannasoumaki, you’re fine IMO, you just could have been clearer about what the link was and why you were linking to it, and usually when people drop unclear links around here, they’re trolls. But you are not of course.)
I really wish people would stop describing the rape-as-penetration contention as gendered. It’s not. Women can penetrate men, men can penetrate men, men can penetrate women. It is not about gender or genital configuration.
On a semantic level I tend toward wanting to describe “rape” as exclusively “penetrated against their will”, and I quite like using different types of sexual assault as the technical definitions.
I cannot begin to describe how much I am not OK with treating rape as an innately more serious crime than non-penetrative sexual assault. The idea that rape (and usually a very specific type of rape) = “very very bad” and other types of sexual assault = “get over it” raises my blood pressure like nothing else.
And I am absolutely 200% behind survivors naming their own experience. No part of me sees a man (or anyone with a penis) MtP describing their experience as rape as a bad thing. Given the social context, I actually think it’s often the best way to define it, and regardless, will argue loudly for the right of survivors to name their experience.
I just have a massive thing for precision of language, and find it hard to shake my inclination toward making consistent definitions. I don’t even agree with it in law, because I think what people here have outlined is very true, with not-defined-as-rape being taken less seriously. Just… as a definition? I don’t know.
Anyway. People of all genders can be sexually assaulted by penetration and otherwise. We don’t need to create a heirachy out of it.