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CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

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Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

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Posted on October 29, 2013, in all about the menz, antifeminism, evil women, misogyny, MRA, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, sexual assault, TyphonBlue and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 973 Comments.

  1. Oh dear god, not a troll on the CDC thread again.

  2. Who needs citations when you can just call everyone a b*tch?

  3. Goddammit. Considering that necrotroll’s claims have been neatly countered on the same page that necrotroll commented on. They just don’t read, do they?

    Whatever. Here’s a kitty playing with a chihuahua:

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voQOiCT98XA

  4. That is a cute kitty. Kitties are much more interesting than trolls with poor analytical skills and the reading comprehension of ear mites.

  5. cassandrakitty

    All I’m hearing is a vague angry buzzing sound.

  6. Oh? Really? Like 1 in 5 women being raped? Or a load of your other bullshit you can’t find good sources for? Or the other things feminists say? Weird. I thought we were supposed to make up everything.

    I can only hope you know that the CDC study actually says that 1 in 5 women have been raped in their lifetime. Is the CDC study now an unreliable source because it still supports feminist talking points?

    40% of people or are either raped or forced to penetrate are assaulted by women. That’s the accurate conclusion of the data. There’s nothing you can say that will undo that fact. Deal with it, bitch.

    Long response: The 40% figure is derived from the sex of perpetrator figure from the lifetime sample of victims. It cannot be applied to the 12-month sample of victims in order to derive the 40% figure as the lifetime sample and the 12-month sample differ in significant ways, one of those being the varying age distribution of victims between the samples. The 12-month sample is not as representative of victims as the lifetime sample is. Moreover, the victimization data from the lifetime sample indicates that women are almost three times more likely to be raped than men. There is no reliable evidence that men are more or less likely to report being raped, and the statistical error is unlikely even if there is such evidence because the CDC’s survey uses questions that are behavior-specific, avoiding loaded terms like “rape”.

    Note that this same methodological design was invented by a feminist scholar, Mary P. Koss, and the CDC’s survey uses it to gain information about the sexual victimization of men.

    Short response: Read the thread, in which nearly every MRA argument has been addressed, or fuck off for being a disingenuous misogynist like all MRAs are.

  7. David, A question.

    Can you point me to the data re the characteristics of men who commit acquaintance rape?

    I ask because, try as I might, I can’t seem to find much of anything beyond David Lisak’s work, which is over 10 years old. And it seems to me that if we are looking to drastically reduce rape on campuses it would be useful to understand who the rapists are, how they operate, whether we are talking about “behavior many men commit” or “behavior a few men commit repeatedly,” etc., so action can be informed by the facts.

    Thanks in advance, Frank.

  8. Frank, I’m not David, and I apologize if I’m telling you things you’ve already tried, but if you use Google Scholar and search for the Lisak article in question, and then look at the articles that cite it (a link below the article in the search results), you can then refine the search results to limit by date, add in additional keywords, etc. I’m not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but I found some promising results.

    If you find one or two articles that look good but are behind a paywall, if I have access I can send them to David who can (if he’s willing) send them to you.

  9. I’ve a nasty suspicion that this is a product of MRA’s assumption that rape (the crime typically prosecuted as rape) is the same thing as waking up to a woman on your morning wood. That forcibly entering other person’s body, violating the most private boundary of all, is equivalent to their happy fantasy.

    They just added some concern trolling to restate it so that they can start calling anyone who disagrees with their understanding of rape a “rape apologist”. And nobody wants to be a rape apologists.

    Given that MRAs have been known in the past to flood reporting sites with false accusations, I expect a surge of false accusations against women.

  10. Um, a man waking up to a woman on his penis is rape. That’s non consensual sex. The fuck?

  11. Zilla, I’d amend that to “a fantasy of waking up to find a woman on their morning wood”. Like auggzillary said, if it actually happens, it is rape.

    Not that MRAs see it that way. Notice how they’re all “hur hur hur lucky him” about actual cases of men or boys being raped by women (remember the thread where they were saying the abused boys in a class were the ones not raped by the “hot” teacher?). Their only *cough* concern *cough* for male rape victims is when they want to end any discussion about men raping women.

    (NB I’m talking in binary terms because that’s how the discussions are always framed; non-binary or trans people never figure in MRAs’ faux-concerns for victims.)

  12. Flying Mouse

    Yeah, I agree with auggziliary. Asking before you touch another person’s body is pretty much minimum standard of decency territory.

  13. kittehserf:
    Yeah, you put it way better. I think it may be rather dangerous to literally equate the two, though – given that men are usually not very averse to this scenario, or not as averse as to a hypothetical where a woman bigger and stronger and uses a strap-on.

    Men commit far more homicide of intimate partner, so any situation, everything else being equal, is inherently very scary for women to find themselves in, scary in a way that men have difficulty relating to.

  14. Flying Mouse

    given that men are usually not very averse to this scenario

    Zilla, I know you were talking to kittehserf, and I’ll acknowledge that I might be nit-picking, but that makes me too uncomfortable to let slide by. What I quoted above feeds into the “he’s always up for it” part of our mythos around male sexuality. Consent is important for men, too; guys shouldn’t have to feel like they always have to be up for it if they want to be a real man.

    Also, I feel like “he’s always up for it” is a close cousin of “male sexual urges are so strong they can’t be controlled.” Which is an idea that I think everyone here agrees needs to die, quickly and painlessly.

    FWIW, I agree with the rest of your comments about men having a hard time understanding domestic threats to women. I get where you’re coming from, I just wanted to tweak a little.

  15. Flying Mouse

    The first sentence of my final paragraph should read “FWIW, I agree with the rest of your comments about these men having a hard time understanding domestic threats to women.”

    Shouldn’t nitpick everyone else’s posts when I can’t proof my own :b

  16. Flying Mouse: “Consent is important for men, too; guys shouldn’t have to feel like they always have to be up for it if they want to be a real man. ”

    Of course. I agree. The issue is that the mythos that you are talking of, in combination with “rape of a woman” = “forced to penetrate one”, very much trivializes female experience.

    Other issue is – as a guy, the “bigger stronger woman with a strap on” eeks me out a lot more than “forced to penetrate” does. I don’t think it’s all because of the mythos – one forcibly violates insides of my body, other does not. I may be making an invalid generalization but I think it is fairly common among people of both sexes to find something that intrudes into their body to be more scary.

    So if I were to put the equals sign between forcible penetration and forced to penetrate, I would, to the best of my knowledge, be lying.

    (There’s the other issue that the object used for penetration may be a dildo, in which case “forced to penetrate” seems definitely distinct from “forcibly penetrated”.)

  17. (There’s the other issue that the object used for penetration may be a dildo, in which case “forced to penetrate” seems definitely distinct from “forcibly penetrated”.)

    i.e. in the sense that being forced to please someone with a dildo doesn’t seem nearly as bad as being forcibly penetrated with a dildo, assuming everything else is equal.

    Also, regarding surveys. When asking poorly worded questions about coercion one can get all sorts of false positives for things that have nothing to do with rape. Such as women asking for foreplay and men feeling ‘blackmailed’ with the promise of sex.

  18. zilla,

    Why do you see penetration as more traumatic in rape? Think that through.

    I think there is alot of sexism to unpack about that assumption. Instead of “forced to penetrate”, one could just as easily say that a man raped via piv nonconsensual sex is “engulfed” or “swallowed” by another person’s body. How is that not horrifying?

    The idea that penetration = aggression and that the person being penetrated is passive in preventative sex is rooted in sexism.

    The idea that “surprise sex” is a treat for men, but rape for women rooted in that same sexism.

    Please do not minimize men’s trauma at being victims of any sort of sexual assault. Maybe you aren;t aware of this, but it is common for survivors of sexual violence to think of themselves as “not having it bad enough”. They sometimes think, “It could always be worse, right? What do I have to be upset about? I’m not as worthy of empathy as other kinds of victims”. It can compound the trauma of abuse. Please stop contributing to that way of thinking. It isn’t right.

  19. i.e. in the sense that being forced to please someone with a dildo doesn’t seem nearly as bad as being forcibly penetrated with a dildo, assuming everything else is equal.

    Fuck you and stop!
    Speculating and ranking people’s trauma like it is a score on a video game is bullshit asshole behavior.

  20. @zilla

    The important point is that ALL non-consensual sex is rape. Giving the label ‘rape’ to each instance of it does not minimize any particular instance or set of instances.

  21. Flying Mouse

    zilla, I’ve tried to write my reply to you about four times, but I think I’m in above my paygrade here since I’ve never been raped. I can’t seem to find a way to say what I want to say about boundaries in general without, as you said so well, trivializing someone else’s experience.

    Since I can’t say anything informed, perceptive, or sensitive, I’ll just say that I still agree with most of your premise and feel deeply uncomfortable about a few small things in the rest of it.

    And I’ll see myself out. Have a happy Wednesday (or Thursday, if that’s the case).

  22. Flying Mouse

    Wow, I should have refreshed before I posted that.

    zilla, please disregard what I said and instead pay attention to Lea’s posts. She said all of the stuff that I was too inarticulate and wishy-washy to voice.

  23. Flying Mouse

    scott1139 is right on, too.

  24. scott1139:
    I don’t really care about word issues.

    Lea:

    Speculating and ranking people’s trauma like it is a score on a video game is bullshit asshole behavior.

    Ranking crimes by severity is something that courts have to do in the cases, lawmakers have to do to create fair laws, and so on.

    Why do you see penetration as more traumatic in rape? Think that through.

    I think there is alot of sexism to unpack about that assumption. Instead of “forced to penetrate”, one could just as easily say that a man raped via piv nonconsensual sex is “engulfed” or “swallowed” by another person’s body. How is that not horrifying?

    All I am saying is that it somehow doesn’t horrify me equally. Maybe I’m wrong and I should be more horrified of the engulfing than I am, but I don’t and I’d rather not increase the extent to which I am horrified of something.

    Please do not minimize men’s trauma at being victims of any sort of sexual assault. Maybe you aren;t aware of this, but it is common for survivors of sexual violence to think of themselves as “not having it bad enough”. They sometimes think, “It could always be worse, right? What do I have to be upset about? I’m not as worthy of empathy as other kinds of victims”. It can compound the trauma of abuse.

    I, personally, when I face various adversities and get unfairly discriminated against, think of all the people who have it much worse than I do. That seems to help me. Of course, I don’t claim it helps everyone, but as far as I can possibly know, I’d be a wreck if I didn’t think of myself as relatively successful and didn’t consider my misfortunes to be relatively speaking not very major. Thus I’m very wary of the notion of explaining to people how bad they have it. Of course maybe I’m very wrong about how I approach my problems, but I’d like to see studies with regards to effects of perceptions on the outcomes.

  25. @zilla
    [CN: rape]

    The issue is that the mythos that you are talking of, in combination with “rape of a woman” = “forced to penetrate one”, very much trivializes female experience.

    Putting aside the fact that forced-to-penetrate rape is just as traumatizing and harmful for men as forced penetration rape, I’d say that you’re the one trivializing female experience. Rape against women isn’t only in the form of forced penetration. AMAB trans women who are raped are often forced to penetrate, and it would be appalling to say that such women are trivializing rape by saying that their experiences of being forced to penetrate are comparable to forced penetration. Unless somehow you think that most trans women would love to be raped by AFAB trans men via being forced to penetrate because trans women are men, in which case you are probably a TERF and should seriously fuck off.

    Also, I’m an AMAB trans woman myself, and if I found someone AFAB trying to envelop my genitals against my will, I wouldn’t sit back and “enjoy” it – I’d probably freak the fuck out and start crying. That kind of rape is just as much of a body and boundary invasion as forced penetration rape despite its slightly different form.

  26. All I am saying is that it somehow doesn’t horrify me equally. Maybe I’m wrong and I should be more horrified of the engulfing than I am, but I don’t and I’d rather not increase the extent to which I am horrified of something.

    Well, shit, Zilla, this isn’t about you. This is about the people whose experiences you are dismissing or minimising. This is about the real people whose trauma you are hypothetically ranking.(newsflash, Zilla, you’re not in a court of law here having to decide on a the sentence for a crime, you’re on the internet).

    Get over yourself, stop defending the indefensible and say you’re sorry. Or fuck off.

  27. Flying Mouse

    I’m worse than a troll today, I just can’t seem to stick my flounce.

    zilla, you keep taking your own experiences and preferences, both sexual and personal, and deciding that they’re universal to all of humankind. I was hoping that you just threw that out there in passing on your first reply to me, but now you’re at it again in your reply to Lea.

    Please stop doing this.

    [CN: rape and mental health shaming]
    Seriously, I don’t get to decided that since I find, say, oral sex to be more intimate than PIV, and that it would be a worse violation for me if someone held me down and performed it against my will, that forced reception of cunnilingus would be the worst form of sexual assault.

    I also don’t get to say that since I personally am not depressed, that people who have depression are just whiners and should get up and eat breakfast and go for a healthy run, because that’s what I do when I’m sad!

    Everyone is different. Everyone’s psyche, boundaries, and bodies are different. Like scott1139 said, it doesn’t trivialize one person’s experience to admit that something else might be traumatic for someone else.

  28. Ally S: Sorry if I in any way annoyed you or created such impression, that was not my intention. I, of course, would not sit back and enjoy it either!

    I’m just very vary of equating distinct things.

    Rape against women isn’t only in the form of forced penetration. AMAB trans women who are raped are often forced to penetrate, and it would be appalling to say that such women are trivializing rape by saying that their experiences of being forced to penetrate are comparable to forced penetration.

    Of course. But on the other hand, imagine an MRA equating rape with his experience at a party where he got drunk to the point of incoherence (so he couldn’t consent) and some woman then had sex with him, which he says he enjoyed. I’ve seen something along those lines being said a while back.

  29. Ranking crimes by severity is something that courts have to do in the cases, lawmakers have to do to create fair laws, and so on.

    You aren’t a lawmaker and this is not a court of law. A point, you don’t have one.

    All I am saying is that it somehow doesn’t horrify me equally.

    And?
    You can chose to unpack that shit or not. Just don’t leave shitty little opinion piles on the rug and act like that’s OK. There are victims of rape and sexual assault here and your glib hand waving of their trauma is cruel.

    I, personally, when I face various adversities and get unfairly discriminated against, think of all the people who have it much worse than I do.

    Oh well, that”s just like being raped and having your rape minimized and hey! It’s good for you. So we should all do it!
    No.
    Stop.

  30. Of course. But on the other hand, imagine an MRA equating rape with his experience at a party where he got drunk to the point of incoherence (so he couldn’t consent) and some woman then had sex with him, which he says he enjoyed. I’ve seen something along those lines being said a while back.

    That IS rape, you colossal ass.

  31. “zilla, you keep taking your own experiences and preferences, both sexual and personal, and deciding that they’re universal to all of humankind.”

    Sorry if I given that impression. I was originally speaking of a suspicion I have with regards to the motivations behind the claims MRAs make. I’m not deciding that anything is universal to all mankind. I’m just assuming that MRA crowd doesn’t find engulfing particularly troubling at all (due to the combination of it never having happened to them and their attitudes), and so they would equate it with penetration *only* to trivialize penetration. I’m wary of equating things precisely because different people’s experiences differ.

  32. Of course. But on the other hand, imagine an MRA equating rape with his experience at a party where he got drunk to the point of incoherence (so he couldn’t consent) and some woman then had sex with him, which he says he enjoyed. I’ve seen something along those lines being said a while back.

    That IS rape, you colossal ass.

    It sure is, but he says he enjoyed it, and he assumes that everyone else would enjoy it too.

  33. Zilla,
    You have no excuse for what you are doing. Stop.

  34. MRAs have no empathy for victims, male or female. That doesn’t mean you get to minimize rape trauma or play “imagine a worse rape” on this thread.

    A friend of mine was raped by a woman while he was drunk. He may have had an orgasm. Orgasms happen in rape, just like a sneeze happens whether you want to sneeze or not.

    You are using MRAs twisted thinking as an excuse for pretending my friend’s rape “wasn;t that bad”.

    Other than entertaining yourself, why are you doing this? It’s disgusting. It’s cruel and it’s wrong.

  35. Is Zilla an undercover MRA trying to get the evil feminists to say that raping men isn’t so bad?

    Maybe I’m just cynical because of what JB tried the other day.

  36. Dear gods, Zilla, are you still shitting all over this thread and every victim of sexual assault or rape., like ever.

    Stop now! Just shut the fuck up.

  37. WWTH,
    Sadly, I think there are just people who think this way and they assume others do too.

  38. Lea, you have no clue what my story is, you’re twisting and horribly simplifying anything I say into very horrible directions that I disagree with, pick bits entirely out of context, insulting me repeatedly…

    A friend of mine was raped by a woman while he was drunk. He may have had an orgasm. Orgasms happen in rape, just like a sneeze happens whether you want to sneeze or not.

    Of course. I know that.

    You are using MRAs twisted thinking as an excuse for pretending my friend’s rape “wasn;t that bad”.

    Sorry if you genuinely got that impression. That was not my intention at all. It is very difficult to express oneself clearly enough, and I’m evidently not doing very good job at it and I am sorry about any distress I may have caused to you or anyone else.

  39. Sorry if you genuinely got that impression.

    Any apology that starts by implying that the person to whom you are apologising may be lying is passive-aggressive bullshit.

    That was not my intention at all.

    And yet when we told you that was what you were doing, you kept right on doing it. Ah, this unintentional mistakes…

    It is very difficult to express oneself clearly enough, and I’m evidently not doing very good job at it and I am sorry about any distress I may have caused to you or anyone else.

    Any distress you “may” have caused? You get a thread full of people screaming at you and you think you “may” have caused some distress? Well, thanks for nothing, Zilla.

  40. > And yet when we told you that was what you were doing, you kept right on doing it. Ah, this unintentional mistakes…

    I were trying to explain myself. I get frustrated, I act passive aggressive. I’m bad at saying sorry.

    I do 100% agree that being forced to penetrate can be worse than being penetrated. Or not be worse. Depending to the individual. That’s why equating things is bad. Equating things that can be distinct is bad math.

  41. Lea, you have no clue what my story is, you’re twisting and horribly simplifying anything I say into very horrible directions that I disagree with, pick bits entirely out of context, insulting me repeatedly…

    I don’t give a fuck what your story is. It won’t make you less wrong. Maybe you’ve internalized victim blaming and it’s effecting how you view your own abuse. Idk. That would be sad for you. I can empathize with how pervasive those attitudes are and how they can get to us all. After all, the same dog that bit you bit me too. Internalized misogyny is a thing that exists. That still won’t give you a free pass to trivialize rape of any kind.

    You’re lying about me now. Nothing has been twisted or taken out of context. If your words betray your shitty attitude, that’s on you. If your words do splash damage you did not intend, the damage is still done and you’ve yet to retreat from anything you’ve said. If you put your opinions forward without think through the ugly things they imply, that’s on you. I don’t have to read you charitably after you’ve been told to back it up multiple times.

    We insult rape apologists here. It what’s this site is for. It isn’t for you to project your fucked up opinions about rape onto others while we sit quietly by with our hands on our laps.

    Piss off until you fix your ability to be honest or feel empathy toward others.

  42. *thinking through*
    Crossposted.

    Zilla, that’s a better apology.

    Care to apologize for calling me a liar?

  43. Lea:

    > Care to apologize for calling me a liar?

    I got angry. I don’t think you’re a liar.

    Let me try to clear it. I don’t think that one person’s experiences are the same as the others. That’s why “equals” sign is dangerous. I very badly (and lopsidedly) presented the case that some men would be relatively un-traumatized by said experience, for varying reasons (including their own misogyny), and thus putting an equal sign in there may be potentially dangerous. And I were too stupid to adequately note, alongside this, that some men may be most severely traumatized by unwanted piv sex.

    I know that you guys have a lot of rape apologists coming here, so the chances are pretty good that any new poster is a rape apologist, which is totally understandable in hindsight.

  44. I do 100% agree that being forced to penetrate can be worse than being penetrated. Or not be worse. Depending to the individual. That’s why equating things is bad. Equating things that can be distinct is bad math.

    Yes, every instance of rape is distinct, and horrible. All of said instances ARE STILL RAPE.

    These “word issues” you “don’t really care about” are the traumatic experiences of real people. That my wording is very general doesn’t mean I think this is merely a semantic issue.

  45. RE: zilla

    It sure is, but he says he enjoyed it,

    Go fuck yourself with a cactus, asshole.

    I’m a male rape survivor. During the time of it happened, I faked enjoyment because IT WOULD END FASTER. And then, because I faked it, I was positive that meant I really HAD liked it, and all the crying afterward was what was really fake.

    Cactus. You. Fuck off.

    I get frustrated, I act passive aggressive. I’m bad at saying sorry.

    YOU DON’T SAY I AM SO SHOCKED.

    some men would be relatively un-traumatized by said experience

    Oh my god, you stupid cruel child. I know WOMEN who are relatively un-traumatized by their rapes. You know what? They dare not talk about it, because they think that means their rape is not real. It is not your place to judge any rape survivor on how they feel or cope with it. Stop taking other peoples horrorshows and making them all about your academic pondering.

    Look at that hole you’re digging. Look how deep you are. STOP.

  46. I’m baffled.

    In your first paragraph, you assert that only rape of women should be addressed and that feminists are justified in ignoring male rape victims.

    Then you try to save face by saying “What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue.”

    Yet you want it overlooked.

    Nice try.

  47. So you’re saying you can’t read?

  48. Having just re-read the first paragraph (what IS it with the necro trolls on this thread?) I’d say yeah, he must be saying he can’t read.

  49. Maybe one troll prevention technique would be to lock threads after a particular time. This seems to be a particular troll tactic: necro old threads. I have not noticed anyone else doing it.

  50. We have had some fun with necro trolls on occasion – didn’t Mikey (that’s DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH Mikey, not “Read my blog!” Mikey) turn up as a necro-troll originally?

  51. Yeah, he can’t read.

  52. Don,
    You’re either bad at reading or bad at lying.
    The words have not disappeared from the blog. We can still read them. Lying about the contents of the blog really isn’t the smartest idea anyone ever had. (and yet, it’s a popular tactic with MRAssholes. I wonder why that is?)
    Please either take the time to learn better reading skills or take some sort of character building class to help you with you inability to tell the truth. You’ll be happier and so will the people who have to interact with you.

  53. I’m shocked this thread hasn’t reached 1000 posts yet considering how often it gets necroed.

  54. It’s getting close, though!

  55. DonB, what were you reading? Because nowhere in the OP is it stated or implied that feminists should ignore male rape victims.

    This thread gets necro’d a lot. I think they despise the fact that a large, well designed study conducted by a respected organization got basically the same numbers as feminist rape researchers. They can call Mary Koss a feminazi with an agenda who inflated the numbers, but that’s harder to do with the CDC. And when they do call the CDC part of some feminists conspiracy they end up looking completely ridiculous.

    And they think they have the ultimate “gotcha” with their “40% of women are rapists” and don’t want to let that go. Even though it is an inflated figure based on bad math and ideology. They’re doing exactly what they accuse Koss and feminists researchers of doing.

    Irony. A concept that MRAs are apparently completely unfamiliar with.

  56. But … but … but … if feminists talking about female rape victims refuse to be derailed into talking about the menz instead, they’re ignoring the menz by talking about female victims. In that one conversation! Which is ignoring the menz! And it is unacceptable that the menz should be ignored – in even one conversation! Waaaah! /Don

  57. This thread gets necro’d a lot. I think they despise the fact that a large, well designed study conducted by a respected organization got basically the same numbers as feminist rape researchers. They can call Mary Koss a feminazi with an agenda who inflated the numbers, but that’s harder to do with the CDC. And when they do call the CDC part of some feminists conspiracy they end up looking completely ridiculous.

    A slightly more plausible hypothesis is that the thread gets linked as a counter-argument to MRA arguments involving the CDC study. It’s also on the first page of Google results when searching for “CDC rape study”.

    A portion of those who click on the link decide to comment for some reason. A lot of people don’t look at timestamps and assume that because they just pointed to a post, it was posted recently. Another common Internet failing not unique to MRAs is not reading past the headline, or poor reading comprehension in general.

  58. Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends.

  59. Hi, I don’t know if this topic has already been discussed but:

    Looking at Table 2.2 of the study it states that in the past year there were 1,267,000 cases of “made to penetrate” incidences against males, but in the ENTIRE lifetime there were 5,451,000 incidences of “made to penetrate”… so that means in the year prior, 20% of ALL “made to penetrate” incidences occurred. Does that make sense? That seems improbable. What happen in that year, that DRASTICALLY drove up this variety of sexual assault against men?

  60. Does anyone have any theories?

  61. @Zap

    There are actually a number of reasons that could drive this. (there’s some speculation back in the thread behind this, if you read it–look especially for anything by Argenti, who is pretty solid with numbers)

    But the bottom line is more research would be needed to say definitively.

  62. Is it possible to get the contact info? I’m doing a school report on rape and would like to find out some information on the survey, since there would appear to be some large gaps in the report itself.

    [also, a possible theory on the reason for the increased incidents in the made-to-penetrate numbers could be the increased awareness of that men //can// be forced into sex by a woman. I have found, at least amongst those I talk to, that the idea that an erection=consent tends to abound as well as the idea that all men always want sex and should consider themselves lucky. A good example of this was the recent UK case here

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194240/Angelina-Jolie-lookalike-stabs-taxi-driver-refusing-sex-her.html

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/luminita-perijoc-sex-crazed-angelina-jolie-3392576

    You also see this attitude repeated on reports about teachers committing statutory rape with male students.

    While the rest of that linked infographic has poor maths, the study on male victims not thinking of past abuse as abuse could be a contributor. Sort of like how female victims come to blame themselves because everyone tells them that they’re at fault for their rape, many male victims would be told that they weren’t raped and would come to believe it themselves. Some have even suggested [forgive me for not having the study on hand] that some younger victims claim it was consensual in order to reclaim the sense of control that “real men” “should” have with regards to sex.

    Considering the male-rape apologists I know actually are among the most misogynistic people I have the misfortune of knowing I personally think this attitude comes to the “male = sexual subject” “female = sexual object” belief. The idea that a man could be placed in the “feminine” role is somehow construed as an insult to some men’s masculinity and thus the existence of them must be denied. Hence why the idea of a female having sexual agency or even exerting “power” over a man is seen as laughable by them.

    I have to ask though, why are so many people in support of separate definitions? It’s forced/non-consensual sex, rape – we don’t call statutory rape against a male minor “statutory made to penetrate”. I’m not trying to be offensive, it simply makes no sense to me. Even taking into account power dynamics it doesn’t really make sense to change the name. If I hit my boyfriend, we wouldn’t call it “made to absorb impact”.[I know, stupid example but yeah]

    ]

  63. Oops, I mean that the increased awareness would lead to more men going “Huh… yeah, that was actually bad and I didn’t want that” – not increased awareness leading to more crimes. Just clarifying.

    Another aspect may be the generational gap and how the younger generations are more educated on gender issues and things like rape than the older one was. I would equate the attitude change to be similar in nature to the social movement away from spanking one’s kids – many (that I know) from the generation who were spanked don’t see the fuss around spanking, while later generations tend to view spanking as a bad things. So older victims of “made to penetrate” may not even deem the incidents worth mentioning.

    Like, take parties as an example. Alcohol is more freely available and now If a person is intoxicated then they can’t consent – yet both men and women engage in sexual activity with drunk individuals because there isn’t enough awareness on how it’s bad. I can’t even count how many of my friend group have had such encounters and felt violated – it’s not their fault that someone took advantage of their state, but they treat it as though it’s part of the normal course of things. Sometimes it’s even a topic of laughter amongst the group – “Did you //see// that bird he went home with? He’s gonna regret that when he sobers up” “Two vodkas and she’s already in the toilets with some guy – such a lightweight!”

    At least in Australia, alcohol is considered to be a necessity at any social get together and not drinking is considered odd. My boyfriend doesn’t drink and he gets a lot of shit about it, but what’s especially weird about is how it’s almost as though you’re supposed to drink and “have sex”. In Western Australia we have mid-year Rotto. It’s an event uni students (and some high school students) go to, usually with a lot of alcohol. My sister’s best friend was raped there – she wasn’t drinking, she was “being responsible”, but just wanted to hang out with her friends. Her rapist was her boyfriend’s best friend who took advantage of the idea that “everyone would be drinking” so it wouldn’t be unusual for a girl to “have sex that she’d regret later”. And that’s exactly what everyone thought – that she got drunk and cheated.

    Alcohol… alcohol isn’t to blame. Rapists are to blame and alcohol and date-rape drugs and force and coercion are just some tools that they use. They can figure out to use whatever tools they want – basically rapists are assholes first and foremost.

    There is now this worry about being a prude or a “pussy” – some stories I’ve read from male victims almost sound like their female rapist thought they were doing them a favour by raping them. There is this stupid attitude that guys want sex all the time and that not having sex is some sort of social impediment that must be rectified in order to let them “level up” almost.

    IDEALLY we should be able to drink and not worry about some asshole raping us. IDEALLY we should be able to hang out with friends who drink and not worry about some asshole raping us. IDEALLY we shouldn’t have to worry about some asshole raping us period. That goes for everyone.

    But I’ve gone on a tangent. >_>

    Another possible thing may be how not getting a man’s consent is not only played for laughs but also sexualized to an extent in recent decades. Take a quick look around the internet and you get a lot of sites [more than one of them written by some 'alpha male'. Other by Cosmo] telling women to be sexy for their man and do things like wake him up with a blow-job or stick a finger in his anus during sex – all without asking. “He’ll love it!” they guarantee. I can say that at least in WA, the latter //is// legally digital rape, but that aside it sort of hits two effects of sexism – that women should base their sexuality around pleasing men and that men implicitly consent to all sex.

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