The Daily Beast takes on the Men’s Rights movement — and takes down A Voice for Men’s John Hembling
Posted by David Futrelle

John Hembling, possibly lying about something
The bad publicity bonanza for Men’s Rights activists continues — and it couldn’t happen to a worse group of people.
Yesterday, the Daily Beast published a long-awaited piece on the Men’s Rights movement, and it’s a doozy. If you’re a regular reader of this site, trust me, you’ll want to read the whole thing, like now. The piece, by R. Tod Kelly, is long — some 6000 words — but worth it.
It’s mostly on the money, but with a few notable flaws.
Here’s what it gets right:
1) It captures the pervasive misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in general, and of A Voice for Men in particular.
2) In an extended section, it profiles AVFM’s John Hembling, and tears apart some of his most blatant lies — including the now legendary box-cutter incident, in which Hembling claims to have stared down a mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters.
As Kelly notes:
Vancouver police records show that there was indeed an altercation in September of 2012 between Hembling and others seeking to tear down men’s rights posters. However, according to the police, Hembling was arguing with two or three people, not being accosted by a “mob” of any size. When questioned by the authorities, neither Hembling nor witnesses mentioned seeing any weapons. …
Curiously enough, Hembling actually videotaped the events and had his AV4M Radio partner Karen Straughan post it online. The discussion with the police has been conveniently edited out, but the rest of the video clearly matches police records and not Hembling’s story. There are only a few young men taking down Hembling’s posters, and the video shows them choosing to ignore him except when he engages them in conversation. One of the men is seen using a box cutter to take down the flyers, but at no time does he use it as a weapon, raise his voice, or threaten Hembling in any way.
Kelly found some troubling, er, discrepancies in another story told by Hembling. Kelly writes:
According to Hembling, sometime around 1995 he was on his way home at 2:00 am after working a night shift when he came upon [a sexual] assault in progress. He says he used his steel-toed boots as weapons to chase off the perpetrator. When the victim was too distraught to speak with him, Hembling says he contacted the police, waited until they arrived, and then quietly left without speaking to them. He says they later tracked him down at his home, where he gave a statement.
It’s hard to know whether this event actually occurred or not. There is no record—at least, not in the Vancouver police files—of Hembling being a material witness to a rape, and police blotters from that time period do not show a crime that matches Hembling’s description. However, this does not necessarily mean the event did not occur. Vancouver police did not fully computerize their data until 2002, and it is possible the police never reported the incident. Hembling claims the incident took place at a specific hospital, where he says he worked as a contractor for 18 months. The address he gives, however, is for a different hospital in a completely different part of the city. This raises the curious question of whether Hembling forget the name of the hospital he contracted with for 18 months, or whether he forget what part of the city he worked in for that same period of time. The real truth of the matter is anyone’s guess, because Hembling wouldn’t comment to The Beast on that or any other matter.
In other words: Cool story, bro.
3) Another thing the story gets right: it makes clear just how little the Men’s Rights movement does to actually help men — and how in many ways it can actually be terribly damaging to men who need real help. As Kelly writes,
the movement’s radicals might … do … immediate damage to those who most desperately need the MRM to succeed.
“When we talk about recovery from trauma and abuse, there were two things that helped me,” says Chris Anderson, executive director of the male-victim advocacy group Male Survivor and a sexual abuse survivor himself. “The first was realizing that I’m not alone; the second was hearing that recovery was possible.” Anderson is quick to dissociate himself from the men’s rights movement: “In [the MRM] people get that first message, that they’re not alone. I don’t know that they ever get the second message. And when they don’t get that second message, it turns into an endless feedback loop and eventually they say, ‘Oh my God, all of society is f**ked.’”
Indeed, Kelly writes:
It is telling to note that of the professional male-victim advocacy organizations I spoke with, every single one specifically asked that I not allow readers to think they were in any way related to the MRM.
But there are also some things that I think the article gets wrong.
1) I think it gives Men’s Rights activists way too much credit for their supposed good intentions. While there are some MRAs who do seem to be motivated at least in part by a sincere desire to help men, most of the MRAs I’ve encountered in the 3 years of doing this blog have clearly been motivated primarily by anger and hatred of feminists — and women in general. They don’t really seem to give a shit about doing anything to actually improve the lives of men — and the paucity of their accomplishments reflects this. In its relatively brief lifespan, AVFM has raised many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has it set up any shelters or hotlines or helplines for men? Not a one.
2) It wildly exaggerates the importance of Hembling to the MRM – especially ironic given that Hembling has been more or less AWOL in recent months, producing only a few short videos and one article for AVFM.
3) It paints a picture of The Spearhead’s WF Price as a Men’s Rights “moderate.” Really? While it’s true that Price is not an AVFM-style hothead given to rants about “fucking your shit up,” his views are anything but moderate. This is a guy who thinks higher education is wasted on women, who blames the epidemic of rape in the armed forces on women, who celebrated one Mothers Day with a vicious transphobic rant, who once used the tragic death of a woman who’d just graduated from college to argue that “after 25, women are just wasting time.” He published posts on why women’s suffrage is a bad idea. Plus, have you met his commenters?
I was, however, kind of amazed to learn that Price is married … and to a feminist. No, really.
4) The article, while solidly researched, contains some small errors and simplifications that will no doubt give MRAs and others the excuse they need to dismiss the whole thing. Kelly refers to Reddit subreddits as Reddit “threads!” He refers to Matt Forney as an MRA! Oh no!
Still, whatever its flaws, this is an important piece, and one that tells a lot of truth about the Men’s Rights movement. Again — go read it!
Posted on October 20, 2013, in a voice for men, are these guys 12 years old?, johntheother, lying liars, misogyny, MRA and tagged a voice for men, antifeminism, daily beast, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, R. Tod Kelly. Bookmark the permalink. 1,986 Comments.








I am exactly, precisely serious. I don’t have to like something for it still to qualify as art (this is why I included the Gainsborough). Even your constant assertion that the portrait is kitsch acknowledges the painting’s status as art – kitsch is lowbrow and mass/pop culture, yes. But it is accepted as art.
Seriously, I can’t believe I have to say this, but THERE IS NO GENDER WAR.
The only “war” that exists is in the heads of MRAs. That’s why MRAs frame it as a gender war, and why feminists see it as more of a pathetic tantrum trying to peer pressure others to join in. That’s it.
We’re going over this again? There is no objective standard. What is art to one person is crap to the next one.
@ostarta
I will be so glad if trollboy answers that because I could use that kind of entertainment today.
@ahostileworld
::headdesk:::
If its up to the person then why did you dismissively say it was “not art”?
And then you get to be upset when another person defends the art…….
I don’t understand you.
You seem to go back in forth and weave all over the place. I don’t understand what you are trying to say because you keep bouncing back in forth…..
And to think, this all started because I said that I would have liked to have seen the author of the article on The Daily Beast to talk about MRAs’ faux-issues like “friendzoning”. xD
*offers a curtsy* It’d be fun to jump into this conversation and get back to that since I missed 8 pages of comments.
Sorry? You called them villains.
Last time I checked my dictionary, “villain” was a word used to describe the antagonist or “bad” individual in a situation. Now, pecunium offered you a good faith response to your question where he made the point you argue that you were trying to make
I’m still interested in your answer to the question I asked you about the difference between vandalizing a work of (admittedly political mass culture) art versus the question of a piece of industrial manufacture, without all the handwaving on the subject of individual taste.
I do not get upset. Apologies if I created the impression. If people consider the portrait, the movie ‘American Pie’ or the Harry Potter series artistic, then more power to them.
‘ You called them villains’
And you conveniently left out the question mark. Including it would have made it more difficult to wrench my example out of context. Quotemining is dishonest.
With all due respect, when the hell did this thread turn into a philosophical discussion of art theory, and what does that have to do with the failure of the journalist to present the MRM for what it really is?
Right… because not answering people’s legitimate questions directly and shrugging it off lends integrity to your arguments, ahostileworld.
I thought you said you didn’t read the thread. Quick to take sides are we?
Disingenuous at best. The individual in question didn’t go out and spray paint a sign or a poster. He defaced a painting that, whether you like it or not, is a work of art on display in a museum.
Okay, Westminster Abbey, but still, on display as a work of art. How is that equivalent to the telegraph pole example? Is it okay to burn down houses so long as they were designed by a builder and not an architect or engineer? Is it okay to deface a painting so long as it’s a portrait of a person and not a landscape? If it were not considered valuable by some people then no one would want to deface it, because no one would care.
But you indicated that cutting down telegraph poles was an equivalent act, and you suggested that this had to do with the “art” of British engineering. I’d like a little explication of this rather questionable suggestion.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edu.gov.on.ca%2Feng%2Fliteracynumeracy%2Finspire%2Fresearch%2Fmartino.pdf&ei=o4tlUpK2EMKh4gTEmIHICA&usg=AFQjCNFAChvrOGggOpVJFkqVqxhlsyMt0A&bvm=bv.54934254,d.bGE some article i found
Many nowadays seem to think that boy’s underachievement cannot be studied without respect to the interaction with class and ethnicity, all boys are not at risk. But I didn’t find any any conclusive answers on a quick search. Anybody has good links?
esled – Becaise something something about feminists not knowing what art is something something feminists are stupid and uneducated something something men’s rights something something they don’t really get it something something subjective something something MRA movement is really a legitimate human rights movement and not an excuse to hate on women. *nod*
(It must be my broken English!)
***Saying that the portrait was ‘a piece of art’ begs the question. ***
I don’t know how many more ways I can paraphrase this for the umptieth time. Anyone can say this or that (a telegraph mast, a dog turd, a nice jacket) is a piece of art. It does not make it universally true.
Let’s be clear, this is what got said:
I had a chance to get caught up, ahostileworld.
So tell me: what’s so legitimate about the MRM that it’s required again? And here’s a question: do we need the MRM if other groups are already handling those legitimate issues without the need for being misogynists, conspiracy theorists, and all around fools?
Go.
Galleries are full of shit that I don’t consider art. Doesn’t mean I’m willing to deface them in the name of some cause or other. Certainly not in the name of retaining rights while failing to live up to the required responsibilities. If f4j would put their efforts toward being responsible and reliable parents, they’d get their wish much sooner. (If you check out their founder’s history, you’ll notice that this is precisely how he managed to regain access to his children.)
Likewise, your insistence upon the lack of artistic value in a given object does not mean that it is, in actuality, artistically, socially, monetarily, or historically worthless. But you know that, you stupid little shitbag.
yay to dustydeste for summarizing the thread :D (not sarcastic, was handy, though trollboy will probably ignore it.)
Look again; the question mark is still there. As is my fundamental question, which remains unanswered as you dance around it.
@eseldbosustow, your point is well taken. I’d argue that this kind of question goes to intent and methods: for people defending the MRAs and their actions, it often seems as if anything they do is legitmate political speech (up to and including advocating violence and murder) because that’s supposedly the only way they can get attention for their terrible plight (why things like non-violent marches and sit ins and petition drives and the like seem out of bounds is always curiously unaddressed), while anything that feminists do (like, you know, decades of diligent work petitioning for redress of specific grievences via the ballot box) is automatically and inherently part of the eeeeeeebil feminazi conspiracy against the menz.
Honestly, I didn’t expect an answer. I just wanted to watch the dance. I was expecting exactly what I got: the avoidance two-step.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Fuck off, Asshole McGee.
@ talacaris – Here’s what I could dredge up:
From here: http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/2012/09/04/race-and-gender-in-higher-education/
From here: http://www.educationnation.com/index.cfm?objectid=98632732-7AF4-11E2-B644000C296BA163
So yes, it looks like race and class issues greatly complicate the gender gap issue. It’s really hard to find articles that are looking at all three factors though – everything I could find only talked about one or two of them.
The fact of the matter is that if the KKK donated to breast cancer research, I still wouldn’t be compelled to think of the KKK as an organization that does good in the world. Likewise, I am not even remotely convinced that the MRM is a legitimate human rights movement just because once upon a time they fumed about a couple of social issues for men and boys that, interestingly enough, feminists and other people were already concerned about without the need for their advocacy. In the meantime while using those legit issues to hide behind a cover of “men’s issues” the MRM has been a hotbed for misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, absurd right-wing politics, and insecure men who rail on about things like “friendzoning” (as my original post alluded to).
So tell us why the MRM is redeemed in spite of the mountains of bullshit spewed from their camp, if you please.
dustydeste, for the win! “Asshole McGee” instantly made my day less shitty, and for that I thank you
@talacaris:
I know there’s definitely variation tied to socioeconomic class, but I guess more what I’m looking for is research that looks at the actual interaction between class and gender. There’s certainly a link between class and scholastic achievement, and a link between gender and scholastic achievement, but what I’m wondering is if there’s a link between class+gender and scholastic achievement. I think there probably is, but I have yet to find any research specifically on that.
Aw, my pleasure, gillyrosebee :D
dustydeste – “Asshole McGee”? BAHAHAHAHAHA.
I also have to question whether a so-called human rights group can be considered legitimate when they have a penchant for being factually and scientifically inaccurate in their rhetoric, running the gamut from the claim that gender is purely biological (transphobia and debunked biological determinism much?), to a bunch of interesting views on myriad statistics about domestic and rape, and even further to a complete historical revisionism of western civilization. Oh, and then there’s the victim-blaming and rape apology.
I mean, for realz, that’s like literally the opposite of what is implied by a word like “legitimate”.
toujoursgai: Yes, it looks like it’s more than just gender going on…
Which means it will be unhelpful to treat all boys as monolith and all girls as a monolith when discussing underachievement in schools, except if you want to push an agenda.
You know what? I’m not waiting for an answer, I’m calling it. Q.E.D., the MRM isn’t the least bit legitimate.
Now it’s time for coffee. Toodles everyone! ^.^
You still haven’t answered my question.
Should we destroy the early presidents portraits and other art from that time period to fight racism? If no, explain why it’s different.
Also why do you believe that art is defined by who calls it art?
I’m off for a while too, myself; time for a nice roast beef sandwich, some tea, and doing some inks of cartoon girls making ice cream for my sister :)
Catch y’all later! <3
And how exactly is destroying historical artifacts going stop circumcision? And why is it the only option?
dustydeste: Yes, that was what was thinking (of two-factor interaction effect)
toujoursgai found something interesting above, but it seems hard to find reports that study several factors at once.
You really, really don’t seem to like those presidential portraits. Go ahead and destroy them then. What do I care, I’m not American. I don’t mind those portraits. Hell, I don’t even know what they look like.
I said I liked some art, even if I didn’t like the message.
Ah yes, it did get them some negative attention.
And how exactly does making your organization look bad in the press make the family court system more equitable? How many men have been helped by spray-painting the Queen’s portrait?
But would you support destroying them? That’s my question. Would you support defacing them for anti-racism?
I never said there was a direct connexion between defacing the painting and ending circumcision. What I *did* say was that it got people’s attention.
You said violence was the only option.
So random people get to decide what is or isn’t art, or what is or isn’t part of the cultural heritage, and then destroy anything they find wanting in that category in order to make a (totally unconnected) point.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m down with that.
I reckon @dustydeste should be the official Man Boobz Teal Deer writer, every thread should have a summary like that. :)
Negative attention is better than no attention at all. As I’ve already said. Some people have been too successful, they have become fat, intellectually lazy, complacent and entitled. They are in the habit of having governments that will listen.
Other people don’t. Those people don’t have the luxury of choosing between ‘negative’ and ‘positive’ attention. All the attention they are going to get for the moment is going to be negative.
How did defacing the portrait help people? Well, it got people talking about legitimate men’s and children’s rights.
Violence against inanimate objects, mind you, and I did not say this without a caveat. I used the word ‘possibly’.
Gillyroseby, the point of Asshole McGee’s “villains” question was rhetorical: i.e. “surely you don’t think the suffragettes were villains.”
Just caught up with the thread back to where WTF Price posted and I still have no idea whose portrait was defaced, but Asshole McGee’s wildly inconsistent opinions on art sure are entertaining.
This is exactly why Mitt Romney won the presidential election. And ‘rape babies are a gift from god’* guy is Indiana’s** now. Oh wait, neither of those things happened, and both of them got pretty bad publicity, or more of, were accurately quoted.
*don’t remember his name.
**senator, representative? idk which he was running for
Also, ahostileworld, men are not oppressed. All of your talk of “those people don’t have the luxury of choosing the kind of attention’ is making me roll my eyes so fucking hard I fear they will roll out of my head.
So why not murder people, if the government isn’t listening to you? That will get even more negative attention! Be specific, and tell us exactly what shit you think it is okay to break to get negative attention to make people talk about your issues.
Here, you can just add to this list.
SHIT THAT’S OKAY TO BREAK:
* Artwork ahostileworld doesn’t care for
SHIT THAT’S NOT OKAY TO BREAK:
* Books
* Artwork created by engineers
Sorry, haven’t done blockquotes in a while, just testing.
Rats and bats, I know I’ve seen some work on this one, back when “opting out” was the stick-du-jour with which to beat feminism. Maybe check the work of Barbara Ehrenreich?
What I seem to remember were studies that suggested academic achievement was less threatening to the identity of girls at the upper and lower most socioeconomic levels. Academic achievement was characterized as a boost for working class girls because getting any education would move them up the scale into clerical or skilled work (nursing, teaching) over “unskilled” or domestic work. For working class boys, academic achievement was seen as emasculating.
At the upper levels, educational achievement was less significant a factor for boys than personal and family connections while achievement for girls was correlated with being ‘proper wife’ material, ie capable of being a knowledgeable and effective decorative accessory to a wealthy husband.
Middle class was where things got interesting, IIRC, with an upward pressure on boys to achieve educations that would push them up the economic scale and a downward pressure on girls not to ‘endanger’ their femininity.
Granted, this was retrospective in the late 1990s and early 2000s, but someone must have taken a look at it since…
@Tulgey, Both the Queen’s portrait and The Hay Wain were defaced. Asshole McGee here thinks it’s fine that the Queen’s portrait was defaced, but as far as I can tell hasn’t weighed in on The Hay Wain.
Also, to answer a question not asked of me, I would totally approve of someone defacing, say, George Washington’s portrait. This country is way too fucking in love with its ruling class, slave owning racist forebears. Fuck ‘em.
That’s a bit more of a live issue than the dreaded Victorian Penis Wars, though.
Yay :)
Isn’t there another troll who always claims to be French and says he has trouble with his English?
This one acts like every British bigot I’ve ever met but claims to be German.
Is this just a troll disease?
While I agree with your reasoning, wouldn’t it be better to create a wholly new work of art which expressed that message than to deface someone else’s work? I mean, if a negative reaction is what you’re looking for, as in the case of the highly rational and consistent Mr Hostileworld, you could always do something along the lines of Piss Christ? Get the same message out, get the same negative reaction, and actually make something worthy of being called art at the same time. Two birds with one stone? Move aside! THREE birds!
gillyrosebee: interesting, looks it is even more complicated. I had to idea about the attitudes at the upper levels, but I guess they are not so many people there, so they don’t affect the statistical means so much-
cloudiah :”So why not murder people, if the government isn’t listening to you? That will get even more negative attention! Be specific, and tell us exactly what shit you think it is okay to break to get negative attention to make people talk about your issues. ”
Do we want this thread to turn into the Terrorist’s Handbook
Yeah, Tulgey Logger, I got that. But he doubled down on it in later comments in a way that was weird. Because a painting of the Queen of England is a legitimate target because it is kitschy and also because the Allies dropped bombs on Dresden, Cologne, Stuttgart, London, Glasgow, Birmingham, Coventry…
Oh, wait, no. Those last few cities were bombed by someone else during WWII. Wonder who that was…
@Marie Yeah, the “rape babies are a gift from god” guy was Indiana’s own Richard Mourdock
No, it got people talking about what “cranks”, “crackpots” and “nutters” they are. It did effectively nothing to actually help men and their children. I’d argue that by encouraging people to see people involved in the F4J as weird, extremist, and potentially mentally ill, it actually set the movement back.
I have to say, I do find it odd that a German would defend the barbecuing of German children during the war (which is what happened in the firestorms that followed the combination incendiary/high explosive bombing raids) as a both a morally defensible tactic, as well as a more effective one than crippling the nations armed forces. I mean, I get that Hitler and his government were a terrible group of people doing terrible things who needed to be stopped, but I don’t think it makes sense to hold German children morally accountable, and therefore valid proxy targets, for their actions.
“Negative attention is better than no attention at all.”
Nope, sorry, it is not. Defacing paintings just makes the organization look bad, so those people who might have said, “gee, they have some good points” instead just scratch their heads. Because defacing paintings makes no sense.
You know what does net you some good press? Rallies. Posters. Petitions. A good-old fashioned sit-in. All those nonviolent protest techniques that you don’t seem to put much store by.
And all this shit about the government not listening? Again who makes up the freaking government? Here in the US, it’s mostly white men!
And we’re talking Britain here, right? According to this, women make up about 33% of members of Parliament. So exactly how are men not getting a fair shake from government when over half of the government is men? Or are all this MP’s just “White Knights” and “manginas” who are in feminists’ pockets?
http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN01250
Well, yeah, of course a few people who hate men and boys by default used it as another welcome justification for their visceral hatred. As if they ever needed one. But you are not everyone. And me and many of my peers started discussing subjects pertaining to child protection and men’s rights in much more detail than we used to.
Ok, I have internet again and it is definitely better than before, so then!
The answer to Dvärghundspossen’s question is that 80%~ of us are cis, 5%~ declined to answer, 4%~ are trans* and the remaining 10%~ ID as neither trans* nor cis, or checked “other” (most of that 10%~ checked “neither”)
So yes, we are far less cis than the populations average.
What gives with the “visceral hatred”? The only thing for which I have visceral hatred is raisins. Well, ok, raisins & sultanas. Oh, and currents. Basically, the whole dried grape thing. Bleuch!
@Athywren, glad I’m not the only one.
This one just seems hinky, I mean it just doesn’t scan.
I know all Europeans outside the UK are awesome at languages, compared to us Brits feeble efforts, but why is the subject of his crap so UK centric? Suffragettes, monarchy, art, british soldiers etc.
The topics are just wrong, and why reference your bad english when it’s obviously so good?
And I’ve known loads of people from Germany and not one has used the word ‘mate’, that’s normally UK, Aus or NZ.
I’m betting, if he is in Germany, he’s still British.
ahostileworld: Foul ball! Who on this site has expressed a “visceral hatred” of men and boys?
” at least not to the degree that the art of a Van Gogh or a Rembrandt, or even a Gainsborough lies in its brushstrokes.”
But…but…Van Gogh’s brush strokes! Fetch my fainting couch!
FTR, I feel the same about the Hagia Sophia. Somethings really do need every last detail to “work”. (Now there’s somewhere I’d love to visit…with someone to drag me out eventually)
Oh??? It’s okay for you to anti-feminist jargon in my mouth (‘white knights’, ‘mangina’), but when I suspect hatred of men I need to back it up?
To put, sorry
Lima beans here. Although I do not appreciate raisins in food one bit.
@ahostilewotsit, that straw feminist in your head is playing up again.
Yes, ahostileassholemcgee, you need to back your shit up. All of it, which so far you have failed at.