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The Daily Beast takes on the Men’s Rights movement — and takes down A Voice for Men’s John Hembling

John Hembling, possibly lying about something

John Hembling, possibly lying about something

The bad publicity bonanza for Men’s Rights activists continues — and it couldn’t happen to a worse group of  people.

Yesterday, the Daily Beast published a long-awaited piece on the Men’s Rights movement, and it’s a doozy. If you’re a regular reader of this site, trust me, you’ll want to read the whole thing, like now. The piece, by R. Tod Kelly, is long — some 6000 words — but worth it.

It’s mostly on the money, but with a few notable flaws.

Here’s what it gets right:

1) It captures the pervasive misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in general, and of A Voice for Men in particular.

2) In an extended section, it profiles AVFM’s John Hembling, and tears apart some of his most blatant lies — including the now legendary box-cutter incident, in which Hembling claims to have stared down a mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters.

As Kelly notes:

Vancouver police records show that there was indeed an altercation in September of 2012 between Hembling and others seeking to tear down men’s rights posters. However, according to the police, Hembling was arguing with two or three people, not being accosted by a “mob” of any size. When questioned by the authorities, neither Hembling nor witnesses mentioned seeing any weapons. …

Curiously enough, Hembling actually videotaped the events and had his AV4M Radio partner Karen Straughan post it online. The discussion with the police has been conveniently edited out, but the rest of the video clearly matches police records and not Hembling’s story. There are only a few young men taking down Hembling’s posters, and the video shows them choosing to ignore him except when he engages them in conversation. One of the men is seen using a box cutter to take down the flyers, but at no time does he use it as a weapon, raise his voice, or threaten Hembling in any way.

Kelly found some troubling, er, discrepancies in another story told by Hembling. Kelly writes:

According to Hembling, sometime around 1995 he was on his way home at 2:00 am after working a night shift when he came upon [a sexual] assault in progress. He says he used his steel-toed boots as weapons to chase off the perpetrator. When the victim was too distraught to speak with him, Hembling says he contacted the police, waited until they arrived, and then quietly left without speaking to them. He says they later tracked him down at his home, where he gave a statement.

It’s hard to know whether this event actually occurred or not. There is no record—at least, not in the Vancouver police files—of Hembling being a material witness to a rape, and police blotters from that time period do not show a crime that matches Hembling’s description. However, this does not necessarily mean the event did not occur. Vancouver police did not fully computerize their data until 2002, and it is possible the police never reported the incident. Hembling claims the incident took place at a specific hospital, where he says he worked as a contractor for 18 months. The address he gives, however, is for a different hospital in a completely different part of the city. This raises the curious question of whether Hembling forget the name of the hospital he contracted with for 18 months, or whether he forget what part of the city he worked in for that same period of time. The real truth of the matter is anyone’s guess, because Hembling wouldn’t comment to The Beast on that or any other matter.

In other words: Cool story, bro.

3) Another thing the story gets right: it makes clear just how little the Men’s Rights movement does to actually help men — and how in many ways it can actually be terribly damaging to men who need real help. As Kelly writes,

the movement’s radicals might … do … immediate damage to those who most desperately need the MRM to succeed.

“When we talk about recovery from trauma and abuse, there were two things that helped me,” says Chris Anderson, executive director of the male-victim advocacy group Male Survivor and a sexual abuse survivor himself. “The first was realizing that I’m not alone; the second was hearing that recovery was possible.” Anderson is quick to dissociate himself from the men’s rights movement: “In [the MRM] people get that first message, that they’re not alone. I don’t know that they ever get the second message. And when they don’t get that second message, it turns into an endless feedback loop and eventually they say, ‘Oh my God, all of society is f**ked.’”

Indeed, Kelly writes:

It is telling to note that of the professional male-victim advocacy organizations I spoke with, every single one specifically asked that I not allow readers to think they were in any way related to the MRM.

But there are also some things that I think the article gets wrong.

1) I think it gives Men’s Rights activists way too much credit for their supposed good intentions. While there are some MRAs who do seem to be motivated at least in part by a sincere desire to help men, most of the MRAs I’ve encountered in the 3 years of doing this blog have clearly been motivated primarily by anger and hatred of feminists — and women in general. They don’t really seem to give a shit about doing anything to actually improve the lives of men — and the paucity of their accomplishments reflects this. In its relatively brief lifespan, AVFM has raised many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has it set up any shelters or hotlines or helplines for men? Not a one.

2) It wildly exaggerates the importance of Hembling to the MRM – especially ironic given that Hembling has been more or less AWOL in recent months, producing only a few short videos and one article for AVFM.

3) It paints a picture of The Spearhead’s WF Price as a Men’s Rights “moderate.” Really? While it’s true that Price is not an AVFM-style hothead given to rants about “fucking your shit up,” his views are anything but moderate. This is a guy who thinks higher education is wasted on women, who blames the epidemic of rape in the armed forces on women, who celebrated one Mothers Day with a vicious transphobic rant, who once used the tragic death of a woman who’d just graduated from college to argue that “after 25, women are just wasting time.” He published posts on why women’s suffrage is a bad idea. Plus, have you met his commenters?

I was, however, kind of amazed to learn that Price is married … and to a feminist. No, really.

4) The article, while solidly researched, contains some small errors and simplifications that will no doubt give MRAs and others the excuse they need to dismiss the whole thing. Kelly refers to Reddit subreddits as Reddit “threads!” He refers to Matt Forney as an MRA! Oh no!

Still, whatever its flaws, this is an important piece, and one that tells a lot of truth about the Men’s Rights movement. Again — go read it!

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Posted on October 20, 2013, in a voice for men, are these guys 12 years old?, johntheother, lying liars, misogyny, MRA and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 1,986 Comments.

  1. @ophelia

    Should have said that last night, bit selfish, sorry.

    I don’t think you were being selfish :/

  2. I’ll see pretty much any movie with John Goodman in it.

    As for the hot men discussion – I’m like 90% attracted to women, but I’ll admit to finding Brad Pitt pretty cute. And Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I like my men pretty.

  3. This new troll, he’s fucking British isn’t he?

    Seriously all this ‘mate’ stuff, going on about the monarchy, and what is it with the WW2 stuff? Why God Why? Isn’t it enough that we already have Godfrey Bloom and ‘hard chairs’ Tom?

    *mutters to self* the British ones are ALWAYS experts on WW2!

    I blame those Christmas magazines that used to come out every year, 50 pence for the first issue £9.95 for every following one.

    “Over 856 weeks you too can become an obsessive WW2 facts knower.
    With each issue you can build a 1:12 scale replica of Stalingrad and bore all your friends (ha!) by acting out this historic battle. It’ll be just like it was you who fought and died for your country!”

    Yes, yes mister hostile cliches, it was the turning point in the war, and if you’d been alive then you would totally have kicked Hitlers arse!

    Can anybody say EDL? I’m sure hostility man does all the time.

    Also : Down with the monarchy! There, feel less hostile to us now @ahostileworld?

  4. I like how many people become decorated generals after the battle – ‘yeah, they should not have bombed Dresden, they should have bombed oil fields (Germany has oil fields?) and oil depots (Germany is Esso?)’.

    If those British men hadn’t risked their lives, many people here wouldn’t be able to spout their entitled bullshit.

    Now, back to how this relates to breaking shit as a form of protest.

    It was said that the Indian Independence movement under Gandhi did not damage property – UUUUUUUUURK – wrong.

    It was said the civil liberties movement under Martin Luther King was non-violent – UUUUUUUUUUURK – wrong again. MLK himself may not have resorted to violence, but the civil liberties movement as whole did not forego the tactic of causing material damage.

    No civil rights movement has ever accomplished anything by asking nicely. If you want to make yourself heard, you have to create noise, loud noise, and you will quite possibly have to break shit to get people’s attention.

    JFF did not burn any houses. *One of them* destroyed a tacky piece of monarchist crap.

    I’m sorry, but the world isn’t Disneyland. Enrolling the Nazis in a Social Justice Awareness course plus Communication Studies in an effort to turn them into nice people was not an option. The only way of resolving it was breaking a lot of their shit.

    By the same token, asking nicely to stop genital mutilation (without, of course, affronting religious crazies and their childish believes in badly written fairy tales) is no longer an option. Asking nicely to be treated fairly in family courts is no longer an option. Asking nicely to stop pumping lively boys full of harmful drugs to turn them into compliant, sleep-walking zombies for their school day and asking nicely to stop justifying this by inventing more and more varieties of ‘attention deficit disorders’, and similar horseshit, is no longer an option.

    There are people who simply don’t have the luxury of a society and government that is willing to listen and act on their behalf. That some people have become too fat and too entitled to realise that there are people besides them who have legitimate concerns, is not our fault.

  5. So what shit are you advocating people start breaking, ahostileworld?

  6. So murdering people you disagree with must be okay then, too, right? I mean, this isn’t Disneyland.

  7. @ahostileworld

    If those British men hadn’t risked their lives, many people here wouldn’t be able to spout their entitled bullshit.

    You might want to look up the definition of ‘entitled’ in the dictionary.

  8. Also, why are the only two options for ahostileworld ‘asking nicely’ or ‘heck of a lot of violence.’?There’s no in between.

  9. By the same token, asking nicely to stop genital mutilation (without, of course, affronting religious crazies and their childish believes in badly written fairy tales) is no longer an option.

    Why not? Circumcision rates are declining steadily. Education and public discussion seems to be working just fine. Why do we need to start setting things on fire?

  10. they should have bombed oil fields (Germany has oil fields?) and oil depots (Germany is Esso?)’.


    Seriously? I just… I mean, I get it, I sometimes make connetions that are not immediately obvious to everyone else, and sometimes I make leaps that some people need to take in small steps, but surely the connection there is clear?
    I’m not making some radial leap of logic here, am I?
    Firstly, it was air fields. Those places where planes are kept and are launched into the air? You know, the things that shoot down other planes and drop bombs? Yeah. And, seriously, every mechanised nation has oil depots – not just Esso. Fuel depots, whatever. Without fuel, mechanised nations are just… nations. Try fighting a mechanised campaign without fuel. You will fail.

  11. “Broad?” Are we in a ’40s film noir now?

    Sorry old mate, I am not American .

    So you use an out of date American term? Don’t bullshit.

    Sheila’s not much better these days, btw.

  12. @ toujoursgai – where? What country? America? America is not the only country in the world and there are countries where this medieval crap is becoming more and more widespread.

  13. Hey, jackass, you still haven’t explained why you think burning down houses is totally cool but sawing down telegraph poles is a TERRIBLE OFFENSE.

    I would really like to understand this cognitive dissonance going on!

  14. I know it’s common in other countries as well, but where are the rates increasing? And what makes you think that education and public discourse won’t work there?

  15. Since this isn’t Disneyland, and the only way to succeed is to break shit, what shit are you going to break, ahostileworld? Come on, answer the question.

  16. For those following along at home: The reason you can’t go “this act would be morally wrong except it’s justifiable in this circumstance because the victim deserves it and/or I’m doing it for important social justice reasons” is that the same logic could be used to justify doing bad things to anyone as long as you have a reason that you think is good. You may think it’s obvious that vigilante justice against, say, a rapist is OK but the same act against a rape victim is horrifying, but if someone else thinks that girl totally had it coming, zie can use the exact same reasoning to do the exact opposite.

    Basically it moves social morality from relatively clear-cut ideas that most people don’t disagree too strongly about (like “murder is wrong because every human being has a right to life”) to completely subjective ones entirely dependent on one’s worldview (like “murdering a member of the middle or lower class is wrong because they aren’t oppressors, unlike the upper class”). So, for instance, to convince an MRA that you shouldn’t bomb a courthouse because you lost child custody, you could no longer just argue “murdering people and destroying property is morally wrong, even if someone else really did wrong you”–you now have to completely convince them to stop being an MRA and to no longer think that the judge did anything wrong!

  17. @ahostileworld, so it’s yes to being a British WW2 obsessed wanker then?

    Thread reading fail. :)

  18. “MLK himself may not have resorted to violence, but the civil liberties movement as whole did not forego the tactic of causing material damage.”

    Uh, MLK wasn’t the puppeteer of black people at that time. Are you suggesting he needed that other violence?

    Also how the hell are the world wars relevant to activism?

    And do you think we should destroy the early presidential portraits and change USA currency to fight racism?

  19. It was said that the Indian Independence movement under Gandhi did not damage property – UUUUUUUUURK – wrong.

    It was said the civil liberties movement under Martin Luther King was non-violent – UUUUUUUUUUURK – wrong again. MLK himself may not have resorted to violence, but the civil liberties movement as whole did not forego the tactic of causing material damage.

    Bullshit. It’s said that Gandhi was an effective and powerful activist, whilst maintaining his policy of non-violence. Ditto MLK. It is not said that the civil rights movement/Indian independence movement was non-violent, neither by historians, nor the commenters here, nor by anyone even slightly knowledgeable about the subject. So either you’ve managed to round up every idiot you could find and argued with them, or you’re being incredibly disingenuous.

    @Kitteh’s

    The troll Cassandra’s referring to is Ullere

    Re: Brad Pitt and “attractive”

    I think you can make “objective” claims of attractive in reference to how well someone fits the cultural standards of beauty of the commenter and/or the person. So I think we can “objectively” say that Pitt, or JGL or Scarlett Johannsen is attractive, without it having to mean that everyone finds them attractive. Whereas someone like Goodman doesn’t fit the Western cultural standards of being extremely attractive, but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of people do find him attractive.

    Personally, I use “X is attractive” to mean that they fit the cultural standards, and use “X is attractive to me” for people that I personally find attractive, but do not fit cultural standards.

  20. You’re not trying to summon the faux wearer of berets, are you?

    ::snicker:: Reversing that, I’m wearing a faux beret right now. I finished knitting it last night and it’s cold this morning. :)

    I notice hostilitywank only has a snipe at the portrait of the Queen (or rather, the Queen herself) and doesn’t mention the attempt to damage/destroy Constable’s painting The Hay Wain.

    I wasn’t aware that a couple of nineteenth-century farm workers were parasites and predatory crates and so on.

  21. Oh, I see – it’s increasing in Southern Africa, although not for religious reasons. Since the concern there is public health, it seems like anti-circumcision activists should be able to get by with facts and reasoning. Still don’t see how fire is going to fix much.

  22. *ca. 47 minutes of enraged sputtering*

    Honestly, I am losing my ability to tell the difference between stupidity and utter pigheaded mendacity now.

    Maybe you feminists should think a bit about the fact that, as long as we are human, there will never be a resolution to this issue that doesn’t involve “sleeping with the enemy.”

    Men are not the enemy of feminism.

    No, seriously. I’ll repeat that as many times as you need me to.

    Men are not the enemy of feminism.

    Even non-feminist men are not the enemy of feminism.

    The enemy of feminism is a stultifying, regressive, essentialist, inhumane, repressive ideology, which is why giving it a name and defining it’s particulars (patriarchy, rape culture) is a useful and productive tactical decision, rather than just a ‘bandying about of buzzwords’.

    Naming something helps make it possible to talk about. Talking about it makes it easier to address and resist.

    Which is why feminists use those words: to assist in the process of dismantling the effects of the stultifying, regressive, essentialist, inhumane, repressive ideology that is our enemy. (How do MRAs use their words? Oh, that’s right. To harass, threaten, and vilify women)

    Again, and as many times as I need to say it, men are not the enemy of feminism.

    Feminists like myself resist the ideology, which incidentally harms men and boys as widely and indiscriminately as it harms women and girls. Feminists like myself resist and work against the ideology in order to make the lives of men and women and boys and girls alike better.

    I’m not a feminist because I hate men.

    I am a feminist because on top of all the difficulties and challenges that are still faced by women and girls, in 20 fucking 13, the immediate response to problems faced by men and boys is still to scrabble around desperately for a woman to vilify and punish.

  23. For instance, tacky, tasteless monarchist kitsch.

  24. No one here said circumcision was OK. In fact we’ve said we are against it several times. But why is violence the only option?

  25. You might want to look up the definition of ‘entitled’ in the dictionary.

    Doesn’t need to. He sat for the picture.

  26. ahostileworld, Would you advocate firebombing hospitals and medical clinics, since that’s where the bulk of European circumcisions are taking place?

  27. I like that Mr. “spot a derailing from a mile away” has gone from talking about how nobody cares about frienzoning to rape culture to the demographics of Manboobz to F4J to what’s real art to WWII to circumcision.

  28. It goes without saying that book burnings are fair game, right?

  29. The circumcision derail is partly my fault – sorry about that. I was just trying to make the point that public debate can alter social behavior without any violence necessary.

  30. Oh Christ, now he’s on at the Germans.

    Really? ahostileshithead.

    I’m embarrassed that we’re both British, could you please try not to be such a stereotypical bigoted white British male please?

    For some reason I’m thinking of Basil Fawlty:

  31. So… if it’s totally okay to burn down the houses of people you don’t like ’cause they’re your “opponents”, does this apply to other things as well? Is it okay to burn down courthouses because they’re some supreme EBIL, burn down PP Clinics because EBIL, crash a plane into WTC because US is some sort of EBIL?

    You can use that argument to justify terrorism. And that argument reveals much about our current Boring MRA Troll.

  32. And why not?

  33. I’m not British, I’m German, Ophie, so relax will you?

  34. Was that to my question, Katz, or cloudiah’s?

  35. Ophie? It’s opheliamonarch to you fucknuts!

  36. Now you keep asking me about stuff that I would burn. It’s weird. Time for a cigarette, I guess.

  37. Argh…. Sorry for the wall-o-screed… and for neglecting to explicitly include the non-binary and trans* folk.

    Thanks to opheliamonarch for sharing your story and to Keith as well for identifying as a survivor here. As one of the (far too fucking many) rape survivors in this community, you have my empathy and solidarity.

  38. You’re all over the place, ahostileworld.

    Both Ghandhi and Dr. King were very much against violence and “breaking shit.” And yeah, that does work. And I’m having a really hard time coming up with anything about the civil rights movement causing property damage; are referring to the race riots that broke out in several cities during that time period? Because you do know that riots were not part of the civil rights movement, right? (Can’t speak to the Indian Independence movement, not terribly familiar with that history. I’m sure there are others who can). And big difference, the leaders roundly condemned property destruction and violence, rather than condone such.

    And what, exactly, did destroying a “tacky piece of monarchist crap” accomplish? Beside making FFJ look like wingnuts?

    “By the same token, asking nicely to stop genital mutilation (without, of course, affronting religious crazies and their childish believes in badly written fairy tales) is no longer an option. Asking nicely to be treated fairly in family courts is no longer an option. Asking nicely to stop pumping lively boys full of harmful drugs to turn them into compliant, sleep-walking zombies for their school day and asking nicely to stop justifying this by inventing more and more varieties of ‘attention deficit disorders’, and similar horseshit, is no longer an option.

    There are people who simply don’t have the luxury of a society and government that is willing to listen and act on their behalf. That some people have become too fat and too entitled to realise that there are people besides them who have legitimate concerns, is not our fault.”

    Ok, one, from what I’ve seen, the MRM has done precious little by way of “asking nicely.” Or, anything at all, really, other than use said issues to bash feminists with. Two, there’s nothing “fake” about ADHD, as anyone who has ever suffered from it will tell you; and it is not some evil conspiracy to drug little boys into compliance. You think it’s over-diagnosed or that medication is used to freely, fine, but that is a separate issue. You trying to say that “normal” male behavior is being turned into a pathology? Fine, I’ll see you and raise you hysteria, menopause, pregnancy and PMS, all of who h have been treated as “disorders” by the medical/psychological establishment at one time or the other. In the case of hysteria, a totally made up diagnosis for uppity women.

    Society and government “not willing to listen” to white men? What freaking planet are you from? Take a look at who runs society and government. At least here in the US, it’s a bunch of freaking white men!

    Yeah, take a cue from Marie and look up what the word “entitled” means.

    For everyone else, here are some nice quotes from Ghandhi and Dr. King as some verbal brain bleach:

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13576-returning-violence-for-violence-multiplies-violence-adding-deeper-darkness-to

    http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/38320.html

  39. Ophelia – you’re not selfish. It’s okay. *offers all the hugs*

  40. @gillyrosebee, you can call me Ophelia :) and thank you, I’m so sorry for what you went through.

  41. “Now you keep asking me about stuff that I would burn. It’s weird. Time for a cigarette, I guess.”

    It’s probably because you advocated destroying art and homes as activism.

  42. I mean, nonviolence works. Breaking shit rarely does, it just makes the one doing the breaking look bad.

  43. Shorter troll: feminists talking about rape culture in an attempt to increase awareness and make the issues easier to talk about is bad but other people burning down buildings (possibly with people still inside them) is totes ok because, enemies.

    And somehow burning down buildings will eradicate male circumcision because….???

  44. Thanks Alice, you’re lovely. :)

    Also, from now on I’m hearing all of hostilewank’s wankery in the voice of Basil Fawlty.

  45. Now you keep asking me about stuff that I would burn. It’s weird. Time for a cigarette, I guess.

    You were the one who explicitly put the idea of destroying cultural artifacts (one of a kind, irreplacable, as opposed to products of industrial manufacturing like telegraph poles) on the table. Once you’ve made a threat, it’s reasonable for others to try to define the parameters of what you are willing to destroy in your quest for attention for your petulant tantrums.

  46. And opheliamonarch,you don’t need to apologize. I thought you were very brave for sharing your story.

  47. Huh, the current disingenuous chump is still refusing to respond to me. Iiiiiiinteresting, coming from someone who came in here loudly demanding a debate with someone. If I didn’t know better, I’d think someone was afwaid of meanie-pants words!

    HEY ASSHOLE YOU STILL HAVEN’T EXPLAINED WHY YOU THINK BURNING SHIT DOWN IS HARMLESS FUN WARTIMES BUT SAWING DOWN TELEGRAPH POLES IS AN AWFUL AFFRONT TO ART THE WORLD OVER PLZ ELUCIDATE

  48. Oi! I did not threaten anyone. I said that breaking things is a reasonable form of political expression. And you fine people have delivered a series of powerrul refutations. And I thank you for it.

  49. ahostileworld: Will you answer dustydeste’s question, or just throw out a bunch of other unrelated things?

  50. No. Every time I see this kid – sproiiing goes the troll detector. And no fair-minded person will conclude that the change in topics were all my fault.

  51. STILL NO EXPLANATION OF OUTRAGEOUS COGNITIVE DISSONANCE OVER ARTISTIC AND CULTURAL VALUE OF VARIOUS OBJECTS PLZ EXPLAIN

    Also, threat does not imply threatening people’s personal safety; a threat is anything you threaten to do. In this case, burning shit down, vandalizing art, etc. That is the threat you have made, you willfully ignorant chump.

  52. @sparky, you nice. :). And Ophelia’s fine for all none wankers thanks, bit long otherwise.

    @Dustydeste, I don’t think he’ll ever answer any questions about his political shit directly, it took three goes for him say if he was British or not!

  53. LOL JACKASS PRETTY SURE YOUR TROLL DETECTOR’S ONLY GOING OFF CONSTANTLY BECAUSE YOU’RE HOLDING IT

  54. Ophelia, many thanks and I agree with the others that you have nothing to apologize for!

    Quick point on my comment above; speaking, petitioning, advocating, marching, publishing letters and articles, on circumcision or any other topic = activism. Whingeing on the internet about burning houses and defacing artwork = petulant tantrums.

    @ dustydeste Because, you see, in the age of mechanical reproduction, we’ve stripped aura from the object itself, so the product of an industrial manufacturing process can be just as precious as a painting that can’t be reproduced.

    Also because he said so, and, you know, he has those fair and logical reasons and all that.

  55. @Ophelia – I don’t think he will either, but I also think he’s a blazing hypocrite and that bears pointing out. Constantly.

  56. Oy @hostilefuckhead! ‘this kid’?

    Answer Dustedeste or fuck off, you’re the troll here.

  57. @dustydeste, *nods in agreement.*

  58. Dvärghundspossen:

    I think one of the reasons for boy’s lower grades is a strong identification with a working-class masculinity where studying is considered unmanly, which is not true for middle-class masculinities. So I wouldn’t say this is a problem for boys in general, it is for working-class boys.

    Why working class girls are not affected in a similar manner , my speculation is that women were never counted as Real Workers the same way and hence have more freedom in this aspect.

  59. I’m trying to figure out which work of art I should destroy/deface to end circumcision. Anyone have any nominations? Michelangelo’s David seems too obvious.

  60. Hey, hostile, I’m curious too. I get that a feat of engineering can be as beautiful as a painting or a sculpture or a poem. Seriously and with no snark, I’m a big fan of Calatrava. But the art of engineering lies not in the individual structural members, at least not to the degree that the art of a Van Gogh or a Rembrandt, or even a Gainsborough lies in its brushstrokes.

    So how, exactly, is cutting down a telegraph pole the same as defacing a painting?

  61. Be serious for a minute. That tacky piece of kitsch queen’s portrait wasn’t art.

  62. And let’s be clear: I NEVER said that felling those masts was wrong. I used it as an example of a legitimate political movement legitimately causing material damage in an effort to accomplish legitimate goals.

  63. I thought the original person who brought up burning houses was talking about the rape victims house getting burnt down.
    Which is the main reason I’m so baffled our new little troll is going on about how burning houses is okay. Because its “okay” in war.

  64. cloudiah: How ’bout Whistler’s “Arrangement in Gray and Black No 1″ aka “Whistler’s Mother”? She obviously a matriarch….

    ahostileworld: Again, what did destroying the “kitsch” accomplish?

  65. talacaris:

    I think that could be the case, but I don’t know that there’s a class-specific split in underachievement from boys specifically; are there studies that show that? I’m not saying it’s not the case, at any rate! I’d just personally thought the gender difference was more more universal, class-wise.

    My assumption was that the girlification of studying and high academic achievement began when academic pursuits were opened to women (as opposed to the 1800s view that women would be mentally harmed by scholasticism and that they weren’t capable of it in the first place). Historically, men as a group seem to move away from things that were once men-only but have become gender nonspecific, which leads to those things becoming designated woman-only things, or at least “unmanly.”

    Could be some of both, though! I wonder if the difference is there across the board but more pronounced in working-class boys? Anyone have any literature on the subject?

  66. It got people’s attention.

  67. I’ll be honest though I haven’t read ALL the comments. And am likely not going to.

    I’m heading to work shortly. I’ll try to catch up on comments when I can. No guarantee (some days the shift is easy and some days the cops have to be called).

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