The Daily Beast takes on the Men’s Rights movement — and takes down A Voice for Men’s John Hembling
Posted by David Futrelle

John Hembling, possibly lying about something
The bad publicity bonanza for Men’s Rights activists continues — and it couldn’t happen to a worse group of people.
Yesterday, the Daily Beast published a long-awaited piece on the Men’s Rights movement, and it’s a doozy. If you’re a regular reader of this site, trust me, you’ll want to read the whole thing, like now. The piece, by R. Tod Kelly, is long — some 6000 words — but worth it.
It’s mostly on the money, but with a few notable flaws.
Here’s what it gets right:
1) It captures the pervasive misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in general, and of A Voice for Men in particular.
2) In an extended section, it profiles AVFM’s John Hembling, and tears apart some of his most blatant lies — including the now legendary box-cutter incident, in which Hembling claims to have stared down a mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters.
As Kelly notes:
Vancouver police records show that there was indeed an altercation in September of 2012 between Hembling and others seeking to tear down men’s rights posters. However, according to the police, Hembling was arguing with two or three people, not being accosted by a “mob” of any size. When questioned by the authorities, neither Hembling nor witnesses mentioned seeing any weapons. …
Curiously enough, Hembling actually videotaped the events and had his AV4M Radio partner Karen Straughan post it online. The discussion with the police has been conveniently edited out, but the rest of the video clearly matches police records and not Hembling’s story. There are only a few young men taking down Hembling’s posters, and the video shows them choosing to ignore him except when he engages them in conversation. One of the men is seen using a box cutter to take down the flyers, but at no time does he use it as a weapon, raise his voice, or threaten Hembling in any way.
Kelly found some troubling, er, discrepancies in another story told by Hembling. Kelly writes:
According to Hembling, sometime around 1995 he was on his way home at 2:00 am after working a night shift when he came upon [a sexual] assault in progress. He says he used his steel-toed boots as weapons to chase off the perpetrator. When the victim was too distraught to speak with him, Hembling says he contacted the police, waited until they arrived, and then quietly left without speaking to them. He says they later tracked him down at his home, where he gave a statement.
It’s hard to know whether this event actually occurred or not. There is no record—at least, not in the Vancouver police files—of Hembling being a material witness to a rape, and police blotters from that time period do not show a crime that matches Hembling’s description. However, this does not necessarily mean the event did not occur. Vancouver police did not fully computerize their data until 2002, and it is possible the police never reported the incident. Hembling claims the incident took place at a specific hospital, where he says he worked as a contractor for 18 months. The address he gives, however, is for a different hospital in a completely different part of the city. This raises the curious question of whether Hembling forget the name of the hospital he contracted with for 18 months, or whether he forget what part of the city he worked in for that same period of time. The real truth of the matter is anyone’s guess, because Hembling wouldn’t comment to The Beast on that or any other matter.
In other words: Cool story, bro.
3) Another thing the story gets right: it makes clear just how little the Men’s Rights movement does to actually help men — and how in many ways it can actually be terribly damaging to men who need real help. As Kelly writes,
the movement’s radicals might … do … immediate damage to those who most desperately need the MRM to succeed.
“When we talk about recovery from trauma and abuse, there were two things that helped me,” says Chris Anderson, executive director of the male-victim advocacy group Male Survivor and a sexual abuse survivor himself. “The first was realizing that I’m not alone; the second was hearing that recovery was possible.” Anderson is quick to dissociate himself from the men’s rights movement: “In [the MRM] people get that first message, that they’re not alone. I don’t know that they ever get the second message. And when they don’t get that second message, it turns into an endless feedback loop and eventually they say, ‘Oh my God, all of society is f**ked.’”
Indeed, Kelly writes:
It is telling to note that of the professional male-victim advocacy organizations I spoke with, every single one specifically asked that I not allow readers to think they were in any way related to the MRM.
But there are also some things that I think the article gets wrong.
1) I think it gives Men’s Rights activists way too much credit for their supposed good intentions. While there are some MRAs who do seem to be motivated at least in part by a sincere desire to help men, most of the MRAs I’ve encountered in the 3 years of doing this blog have clearly been motivated primarily by anger and hatred of feminists — and women in general. They don’t really seem to give a shit about doing anything to actually improve the lives of men — and the paucity of their accomplishments reflects this. In its relatively brief lifespan, AVFM has raised many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has it set up any shelters or hotlines or helplines for men? Not a one.
2) It wildly exaggerates the importance of Hembling to the MRM – especially ironic given that Hembling has been more or less AWOL in recent months, producing only a few short videos and one article for AVFM.
3) It paints a picture of The Spearhead’s WF Price as a Men’s Rights “moderate.” Really? While it’s true that Price is not an AVFM-style hothead given to rants about “fucking your shit up,” his views are anything but moderate. This is a guy who thinks higher education is wasted on women, who blames the epidemic of rape in the armed forces on women, who celebrated one Mothers Day with a vicious transphobic rant, who once used the tragic death of a woman who’d just graduated from college to argue that “after 25, women are just wasting time.” He published posts on why women’s suffrage is a bad idea. Plus, have you met his commenters?
I was, however, kind of amazed to learn that Price is married … and to a feminist. No, really.
4) The article, while solidly researched, contains some small errors and simplifications that will no doubt give MRAs and others the excuse they need to dismiss the whole thing. Kelly refers to Reddit subreddits as Reddit “threads!” He refers to Matt Forney as an MRA! Oh no!
Still, whatever its flaws, this is an important piece, and one that tells a lot of truth about the Men’s Rights movement. Again — go read it!
Posted on October 20, 2013, in a voice for men, are these guys 12 years old?, johntheother, lying liars, misogyny, MRA and tagged a voice for men, antifeminism, daily beast, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, R. Tod Kelly. Bookmark the permalink. 1,986 Comments.








@a hostile world,
If memory serves, our self-survey did show most of us were white, but beyond that commonality we seemed to be a fairly diverse bunch at least in terms of gender, sexual orientation, religion, and age. Anyway, what’s your point?
Ah, I love the smell of grudge-wank in the morning.
Only *one* example? That’s a softball:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNF
La Strega: I had the same thought. The idea that my partner(s) are my enemies? WTF? I don’t have cordial relationships with my enemies. Opponents, perhaps. But personal enemies? No.
starterlifesydney: That you aren’t american is no excuse for using a distancing term for women.
David, surely you know how widespread the cultural trope of “he is a moody asshole who shuns women but not ME, I am the special one who will win his heart!” For many people, being the savior of the broken hero/ine is a powerful romantic pull.
As for Bill, it’s very common for bigots to engage in the doublethink whereby Bob is their best buddy even though he’s a member of hated.Group, because He’s Different Than Those Guys; it’s wholly unsurprising that Bill would cheerfully able to square marrying a woman with his hatred of women, because She’s Different.
Also, of course, I’m sure it is very useful to Bill to be able to point to his wife as proof that he can’t possibly hate women, else why would she be with him.
WRT “sleeping with the enemy”, as has been pointed out by persons wiser than I, for many people gender opposition and the war-of-the-sexes bullshit is a fetish, and given the cultural context, one that they’re not happy to simply limit to being a kink for them and people of like mind; they need to believe that that’s how everybody really is or ought to be, deep down. It’s like the guy who wrote Gor who needed to believe not only that some women enjoy submission, but that evolution mandated that all women be submissive deep down, even if they don’t know it yet.
A little late to the conversation, but am I the only one who has no problem “gatekeeping” when it comes to feminism? I can understand the aversion to going all “no true Scotsman” on it, but I don’t see the problem with someone proclaiming themselves a feminist, engaging in some questionable rhetoric, and then having an eyebrow raised on them.
Considering the amount of people I’ve met in my life who were self-described feminists and yet clearly didn’t even understand the fundamental ethic of feminism, i.e., equality of rights and status regardless of gender, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking a self-professed feminist what the word means to them. For example, my mother thinks feminism means that women can choose to work instead of being a homemaker and can wear pants. Little mention of equal rights and status on a pervasive cultural level resonates with my mother when she hears the word. Christina Hoff Sommers calls herself a feminist too, but I find that questionable given her endorsement of clearly-defined gender roles and the fact that she’s a conservative aligned with the same people who deny women body autonomy.
Proclaiming oneself a feminist doesn’t make it so any more than proclaiming that one is not a racist necessarily does. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I don’t see the problem in questioning someone when suspicions are raised. I won’t interrogate Bill’s wife or anyone for that matter, but it would be comforting to hear out of a self-described feminist’s mouth that they have a foundational ethic that includes equality of rights and status for all people regardless of gender (and even better if they’re intersectional and can make the same proposition for other classes of people beyond gender). In my opinion it’s safe to dismiss someone’s claim of feminism if they can’t say that, though I understand that they can just persistently lie about it anyway.
But it’s important to me that anyone who is a feminist, or wants to be called a feminist, agrees on that one thing even if they don’t agree on how it should play out or don’t know how. I can forgive a person who is a naive feminist, so to speak, but not someone who is a non-feminist using the word out of ignorance or out of defiance of its meaning and supplying their own in its place. Methinks something about Bill’s wife’s views would make me, at least, label her a non-feminist who feels compelled to call herself a feminist, a la Christina Hoff Sommers.
As a male rape survivor myself I feel the same as LBT in that the MRM and more specifically sites such as A Voice for Men do absolutely nothing for Male Rape Survivors. They claim they do but in fact they really could care less. I also see a lot of homophobic comments on MRM sites. If I or any other male rape survivor attempted to seek any help by the MRM I would be alienated as too weak and scoffed at because I let another man rape me I was not
strong enough. The MRM does has done absolutely nothing for male rape survivors. There are more resources for help on most Feminist websites than any MRM site will ever had.
In addition I think Elam or John the Other were supposed to start up a mens shelter in Canada, and I do not think it even got off the ground. Another reason the MRM is all talk and no action. All the MRM wants to do is spew misogynistic, racist, anti semitic, and and any other hate for people who they do not agree with.
hostilityboy:
More proof that you don’t logic.
1: Having social diversity isn’t required to have people discuss things which affect everyone; just look at Parliament talking about laws, or the US Republican Party bloviating on healthcare.
2: Dave didn’t say we were racially diverse, but that there were men here, and people who don’t fit into the trad gender binary. No claims of vast diversity, but a simple statement of fact. A fact of which you are aware, as you just admitted to either spending some time here, or having gone to some effort to do research (since that survey wasn’t so recent as all that).
The truth is giving you trouble; but given your aversion to answering simple questions, keeping the goalposts in one location, etc., this comes as no surprise.
I feel like the MRM is the last place I’d want to send a male rape victim who was looking for support.
She’s from Latvia?! Oh man. I preferred it when my country was known for vodka and people never having heard of us. Stoopid EU expansion. Now it’s all stag parties and objectification of women. *kicks things*
Is Families Need Fathers part of the MRM?
@ Athywren
Really?
For how long?
For how much longer?
Or is she just a “proper” feminist who thinks that women should be allowed to vote, but expecting to be treated like humans is going too far with it?
I have a feeling there is no wife but then again the interviewer supposedly spoke to her and her name is Michelle Price. Why wasn’t she interviewed more thoroughly by The Daily Beast? I mean it does seem rather odd that an MRA is married to a Feminist. Why does she keep so low key? I have never seen any articles on the web written by Price’s wife . If Price really has a wife wouldn’t it be logical he would have her write a guest post on The Spearhead. Perhaps now that it was “outed” that Price has supposedly has a feminist wife, she will be more of a presence on some blogs. I just have a hard time believeing anything that Price says as truth.
Fathers for Justice is, without a doubt, a men’s rights organisation.
Man, I missed the post from Mr. He-Man Woman-Hater Hisself! I wanted to know why it was so bad for Paul Elam to go on 20/20, but totally fine for WTF Price to go on the Daily Beast.
Who think that getting arrested doing stupid publicity stunts, posting malicious lies in newspapers, scaremongering instead of providing advice and plotting to kidnap children is the correct way to go about getting to see their children. Yep, they’re MRAs alright.
Defacing paintings representing a country’s cultural heritage — how does that help men, exactly?
Think about them what you like I but they founded FNF.
Thenatfantastic, that was FNF?
Ahostileworld, how do you know?
@estow: I see what you are saying.
On the other hand, there are plenty of feminists who will blast women who say “well I’m not a feminist BUT I believe women should have equal rights before the law/birth control should be readily accessible/women should have educations and careers if they want them/insert whatever other feminist issue here” because they are enjoying all the hardwon gains of feminism, while distancing themselves from the label ’cause it’s unfashionable.
Bill’s wife seems to be aware of the fact that a lot of people see that as hypocritical. It is!
Funded, not founded. Sorry, typo.
If they’re doing those things then they aren’t a good organization. The fact that you named a harmful organization as your “one” good thing the MRM has done is pretty revealing.
Keith, I don’t think it’s necessary to doubt her identity. Yes, it’s very tempting when she shows up and says her husband is in the top ten percent and then her husband shows up right after to swear that it’s really her, but really we have no reason to think it isn’t her and it doesn’t help much.
Well, I suppose they occasionally provide bored news crews with momentary entertainment? The words “angry clown” do rather come to mind.
Wow… Dean Esmay shows that he understands the actual concept of Patriarchy, and uses that understanding to describe feminism.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/10/20/take-two-red-pills-call-me-in-the-morning-the-sudden-and-surprising-rise-of-the-mens-rights-movement#comment-639099
@ auggziliary It’s not a harmful organisation. The ‘if’ in your sentence is key. And if you think dressing up as Spiderman to draw attention to your organisation and your political goals is nothing more than a silly stunt, then what does this say about the slut walks, ‘walk a mile in her shoes’ and related forms of ‘activism’?
Again, how do you know it’s part of the MRM?
Also how is spiderman anything like the slut walks? Slut walks are supposed to fight against how rape victims are blamed for clothing, and how women are insulted for their clothing or how much sex they have.
And by harmful activity I wasn’t talking about spiderman, you dolt. I was referring to Thenatfantastic and Cloudiah’s comment.
@ahostileworld
I was talking more about defacing art and suchlike.
No word on the attempted kidnapping, attempting to publish lies in the media (the adverts were removed after the ASA found them to be misleading) or not actually helping men at all since they’re too busy scaremongering?
I think the point about the planning-to-be-arrested is this: what is the single worst way to convince a judge that you can provide a safe, secure and stable home life to your children?
Well, I’ll interpret their mischaracterisations of FFJ as charitably as possibly and just say that they are mistaken.
The slut walks may be motivated by noble intentions, similar to the guy in the Spiderman costume. But intentions alone do not amount to anything. What have they *accomplished*? If you are going to characterise FFJ activism as pointless stunts, then what is stopping you from making similar statements about the slut walks.
FFJ is part of the MRM because they are a men’s advocacy group.
Well, I’ll interpret their mischaracterisations of FFJ as charitably as possibly and just say that they are mistaken.
Convenient that. Crimes, lies and attempts to destroy irreplaceable artworks = “mistaken”.
But any ‘errors’ on the part of feminists and it’s Katy bar the door; hold their feet to the fire forever.
Even if those, “errors” are falsehoods on the part of the accusers.
“What have they *accomplished*?”
Did you not read everyone’s previous comments here? There were many rape victims and they said that learning about rape culture is what helped them.
The point is to put a face onto the “sluts” who are raped. It also increases awareness of rape and rape culture, and also slut shaming.
It also rebranded the term “slut”, and fights against hate crimes against trans* people.
The Slut walks have spread globally too, even in places like India. Do you really think that a Slut walk in India is some pointless, irrelevant stunt?
Interesting. A human rights advocate defaces a portrait of a notorious reactionary parasite and kleptocrate, and all of a sudden, you turn all conservative and traditionalist and bloviate about how the guy defaced a piece of ‘British Cultural Heritage ™. Wow, you’re really fighting for the feminist cause here, aren’t you? The same monarchy that had suffragettes rounded up and beaten up under queen Victoria has now found itself a very interesting bedfellow.
Newsflash: no human rights movement has ever gained traction when it was not willing to make a noise and break some stuff. I do not lament the loss of a piece of tasteless, monarchist kitsch, especially if the defacement improved the work if anything.
@ auggziliary – I’d have to answer yes slash haven’t seen any evidence to suggest it was more than a stunt.
Kleptocrate = person who steals crates?
(This dude is so boring that I’ve been reduced to grammar snarking.)
I suppose it could also be a crate that steals people, like an even more homicidal version of The Luggage.
Typo does not equal grammar does not equal spelling, Einstein.
@Katz
Keith, I don’t think it’s necessary to doubt her identity. Yes, it’s very tempting when she shows up and says her husband is in the top ten percent and then her husband shows up right after to swear that it’s really her, but really we have no reason to think it isn’t her and it doesn’t help much.
You have a point Katz. Price is probably telling the truth about his feminist wife and she was supposedly interviewd. I just cannot fathom how she as a Feminist can be married to such a hatreful misogynist and Price is just a hateful person in general. The only thing I can think of is perhaps there was some commonality in that they both are interested in gender and gender politics although on opposite sides. Sort of like that Mary Matalin and James Carville type of “opposites attract” relationship. But I still have a hard time believing Price on this because how could his wife Michelle not see all the vitriolic racism, ati semitism, homophobia and of course misogyny on many of the comments on The Spearhead.
I’m going to just blockquote myself here since I cba typing it again.
I’m actually not that bothered about defacing a portrait of the queen; I was only pointing out that you and other people were talking about different things (i.e. dressing up as Spiderman and sitting on a roof vs defacing art).
So answer my questions please?
hostile: Interesting that you assume the defense of an artwork must be based on what I think of the subject, not the artwork.
Interesting that you pretend to know what I thought of the work before it was defaced.
You aren’t much better acquainted with logic than you are with integrity, are you?
Aw, look, now he’s getting pissy. Still not very interesting, but more so than anything else he’s said so far.
Yes, W.F. (William Forrest) Price did get married about eleven months ago in King County, Washington. It’s public record. Her name is not Michelle however. She appears to be from Latvia based on her Facebook page.
I wouldn’t worry too much, she’ll probably figure out how awful he is and divorce him soon enough.
Où sont les trolls de yesteryear?
This one is no fun.
You’re not trying to summon the faux wearer of berets, are you?
Oh, God no. But that was more French than he’ll ever be.
I still do not think this is a fair representation of what happened, and even if it were, it would be little more than an example of the hasty generalisation fallacy.
It’s displayed for historical value. There’s no message sent by a painting like that. That’s like saying we should deface all the early president’s portraits because of slavery.
Also you can appreciate something for artistic value. I like a lot of symbolist art, even though one common theme in it was women = pure evil created by satan.
“Newsflash: no human rights movement has ever gained traction when it was not willing to make a noise and break some stuff.”
This is really revealing.
Although Mrs. Price’s English is excellent, she is relatively new to this country. I expect Mr. Price is her primary “cultural informant.” In other words, she hasn’t had a lot of time to figure out there’s more to understand about the MRM than whatever he is feeding her. I’m kind of surprised that Tod didn’t pick up on this aspect of their relationship, which he paints such a pretty picture of. But then again, he was perhaps protecting her privacy because she was not the primary subject of the story.
“I still do not think this is a fair representation of what happened, and even if it were, it would be little more than an example of the hasty generalisation fallacy.”
What? Does this make sense to anyone else?
Tell that to Gandhi.
The deep symbolic message sent by the Mona Lisa is that everyone should completely remove their eyebrows. This is why feminists oppose the idea of it being displayed anywhere.
You don’t know the first thing about Gandhi. The Indian separatists did not cause any material damage during their struggle? 3x guffaw to that.
Also MLK.
How big is the contingent of people who think that it’s a good idea to destroy all art that isn’t about subjects you agree with? They seem to pop up everywhere and it’s terrifying.
@ katz
What’s weird is how many of them seem to assume that if you don’t like the idea of art being destroyed it must be because you secretly do love the subject. I feel like I’m talking to poorly socialized aliens.
hostilityboy:
Grrrr. Blockquote fail.
Whoa, hold the weddin’, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? From Tod’s blog post:
There’s no fucking citation for this nugget, of course.
Excuse me, my eyebrows just shot up off my forehead, I must go find them before the cats get them.
And now I have to get ready to go to work. Have fun with the chew toys.
Judging by the comments, they appear to be using *that* CDC study.
Right back at you, sweetie. Gandhi was the first to condemn violence (to people or things), whether by British or by Indians.
Inanimate objects are fair game, people and animals are off-limits.
What do you think of the suffragettes sawing down telegraph masts between London and Glasgow? Villains for destroying a fine example of British engineering?
I answer *some* questions but my troll sensors are super-high-tech. I can detect an attempted derailment from hundreds of light years off.
Yeah, I saw that. His commenters are, pretty much, taking it at face value; though some of the discussion is nuanced. One: they are using the 12 month stats we keep dealing with.
Two, some seem to be using a wider definition of rape for men than they do for women.
Three, there is some hinky stuff on age of consent (related conversation in comments).
He also buys into the “debtors prison” issue, and doesn’t address the questions of counsel properly, nor that it’s not really being imprisoned for debt.
He is a lot more sympathetic to the MRM than the impression one might get from the piece Dave was writing about. Basically he seems to think the are, largely, in the right, but have bad PR/leaders.
Or maybe she speaks excellent English because something like 97% of Latvians speak two languages, and maybe she’s doesn’t need a ‘cultural informant’ because most Latvian media is American. Maybe she’s not just a dumb foreigner looking for a green card after all!
The irony! It burns!
Damn it, the Blockquote Monster hates me today. I think it may be unhappy with the quality of quotation it’s getting.
Should we destroy the early presidents’ portraits, and take all the pre-Lincoln presidents off our currency, to fight racism?
Also, telegraph poles aren’t the same as art. I don’t agree with what they did, but it’s not as bad as defacing art, since you can replace and repair telegraph poles. Also they’re not really an artistic symbol.
Dude, you are the troll.
My time-waster sensors are so finely tuned that they beeped the moment our tedious new friend showed up.
I didn’t even know we were ranked in any formal way to be honest with you. I mean, I get that Brad Pitt is at least six Hottimres ahead of me, but the idea that there is an objective standard of attractiveness? Bizarre.
I mean, I know women are a different species and all that, but I’ve never considered that there’s an objective spectrum of attractiveness for women, so why would there be one for men? I’ll grant you that there are women I find physically attractive, and that there are women who I don’t find physically attractive, and I could probably rank them to some extent if I wanted to be crude, but that would be a purely subjective measure even if it wasn’t squicky.
Can we please stop these sweeping generalisations of what men do or don’t do, or what we do or don’t want? I have no kids of my own, but I happen to know that my brother spends as much of his time taking care of my niece as her mother does. It may be true that most men aren’t as interested in their children as women are, but it isn’t true of men as a whole.
It’s funny, I very rarely hear feminists making sweeping and, frankly, derogatory statements about all men, but I hear it with remarkable frequency from the MRAs and their supporters.
Men are not the enemy of women. Do not presume that a shared chromosome gives you the right to speak for the rest of us.
You do not speak for me.
In what way are those two matters related? Lets assume that every single commenter on here is an über-privileged middle-class whitie… how does that change the distribution of genders?
Btw, hint for you, if you’re going to move the goalposts… don’t do it in the same paragraph that you erect them. Makes it kinda obvious. Learn to be irrational a little more subtly.