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Speaker at Men’s Rights RALLY OF THE CENTURY in Toronto calls on MRAs to take up arms against “communism”

mrarallyPN

Dean Esmay rallies the troops in Toronto

So, it finally happened. The men’s rights lecture and rally in Toronto that A Voice for Men have been breathlessly promoting for weeks — in no less than 17 separate posts — have both come to pass. Men’s Rights celebrities flew in from across the continent to attend the exciting events. Paul Elam was there! So was Karen Straughan! Even Dan Perrins made an appearance! (Oh, wait, I think he lives around there.)

In a post-rally post, AVFM’s Robert O’Hara declared the “Historic MHRA rally in Toronto” to have been a “huge success.”

Well, you can be the judge of that. Go here to watch some actual footage of the event. (Sorry, I can’t get it to embed here.) So far I’ve only watched the final 8-minute video at the top of the page, but it’s pretty revealing in and of itself. The event organizers almost outnumber the sparse crowd. And one of the speakers calls for MRAs to take up arms against their “communist” opponents. No, really, just watch.

In case the video gets pulled, or censored, I’ve taken the liberty of transcribing his remarks: :

There’s an organization out there called communism, and the communist manifesto says that the first thing they have to do is take over power. And they’ll never get elected. And they know that they’ll never get elected. So what they do is they say “we have to take power by violent methods,” right, so if you want to crack back against these people, I hate to say it, but you’ve gotta be prepared to pick up a gun and put down the books.

Emphasis mine.

Someone in the audience responds to this with a hearty “yep!” There’s a smattering of applause, mixed with boos. AVFM’s Dean Esmay hurridly ushers the speaker away from the microphone.

The speaker who follows Esmay — I didn’t catch his name — describes the counterprotesters (who held their own rally nearby) as being of “the hammer and sickle” and denigrates them as “queers.”

This isn’t so much history being made as history repeating itself. I suspect the rhetoric was similar at a lot of White Citizen Council rallies in the sixties.

Oh, and the HISTORIC LECTURE that so many MRAs were hoping and dreaming that feminists would disrupt? Feminists ignored it. Apparently, according to one MRA on Reddit who claimed to have been there, a little more than a hundred people showed up.

Congratulations, A Voice for Men, on your FLAWLESS VICTORY!

I’ll watch as much of the rest of the rally as I can force myself to sit through, and add anything else worth adding.

EDITED TO ADD: I watched the video that covered the rest of the rally. It was pretty uneventful: a low energy, sparsely attended rally with a bunch of half-assed speeches. Apparently no one at A Voice for Men or CAFE, the co-host of the rally, bothered to prepare anything to say — perhaps because they were all expecting some sort of feminist riot? The “pick up a gun” speaker wasn’t one of the scheduled speakers, just someone they gave the microphone to when he raised his hand after the scheduled speakers were done.

One moment that did stand out: a trans man — apparently a member of CAFE — briefly took the mic, taking offense at the chants from the counterprotestors calling MRA’s “anti-gay.” I would suggest he take a look at AVFM’s not-so-proud history of homophobia and transphobia.

EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: Here’s a picture of the event from Civilian Media. You can almost taste the excitement! From left, Nick Reading of Men’s Rights Edmonton, Dean Esmay of AVFM, the legendary Paul Elam (looking a little bewildered), and two other dudes. Paul evidently HEARTS Fucking Their Shit Up. Oh, Paul, we HEART U!

kXDAMZW

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Posted on September 28, 2013, in a voice for men, actual activism, advocacy of violence, Dean Esmay, figurative nazis, grandiosity, homophobia, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reactionary bullshit. Bookmark the permalink. 241 Comments.

  1. I recently saw one MRA comment say that women should lose their right to abortion unless men can have a male pill.

    Well, that’s half rational. A male pill would be excellent, though I wonder how much MRAs would appreciate it when they realised the effects of chemical contraceptives. I imagine it would have similar effects to the female pill. Though maybe men having to deal with the same side effects as women would drive a move to reduce those side effects?

  2. The only thought that pic inspires is “isn’t it a bit cold in Toronto for shorts by this time of year?”

    Maybe I’m just not communist enough.

  3. So, judging for the thread I just read, the turnout wasn’t that big because so many of the MRA’s are just too manly to comply with a no violence policy even in the case of self defense, for a cause certain to benefit half of humanity. Where’s the courage of conviction?

    Actually, its more like these guys can’t resist putting a “mouthy bitch” in her place, and they don’t want that kind of nastyness used against their cause.

  4. Quackers – How old are we talking here? I remember book order forms all the way till middle school seven years ago.

  5. pillowinhell – It’s not like they don’t already make up enough nastiness to be used against them on a daily basis. Otherwise, Manboobz wouldn’t have a reason to exist.

  6. Cassandra, its been in the mid twenties during the afternoons for the past week or so. Almost beach weather really.

  7. @David Futrelle

    Is there anyway we (I) can get that photo Typhon Blue style?

  8. I like this pic as well. Captures the sheer excitement of the event:

  9. Alice, you and I know that, but there are MRA’s who do have both a sense of self presevation and some political savy and they are much more careful in how they present their ideas. These are the people Elam is hoping will be representative of MRAs in the publics awareness.

  10. I’m sorry this took so long, I was talking to someone (cute), but Kitteh, where in the hell did that person get that picture of me?

  11. Unfortunately, them identifying as skeptics makes actual skeptics who aren’t assholes look bad. I’m a skeptic and I’m a feminist. They’re perfectly compatible with one another, plus it helps with “not looking like an asshole” aspect.

    I think they stand as an excellent reminder that you can be a skeptic and still fall for irrational nonsense. No matter how rational we think we are, we’re all still humans, and humans are irrational as hell.

    Great idea! also I’m not at all familiar with what books are out for kids/preteens, but when I was young we had Goosebumps and choose your own adventure books. They were popular and both seem like something boys would enjoy. Elementary schools also had book fairs and I was always excited when we got book order forms….ah I feel so old now lol

    Well… I didn’t feel old, but I had Goosebumps and book fairs when I was young too… so… is there such a thing as a quarter life crisis, and how do I go about having one?

  12. I feel a little terrible, because everyone is subject to politically-motivated bad photography* and the photographer in this case seems like a total hack. But it’s funny, so WTF.

    *For the record, I am far to the left of Hillary Clinton, but I can still recognize the misogynistic overtones of publicizing these kind of photos.

  13. pillowinhell – I sort of feel bad for them. There are people who do care, but whose voices have been silenced by AVFM and other MRA groups because they’re seen as manginas. How could they be the face of the movement if they’re vilified within their own movement?

    Athywren – True. Our own biases tend to taint things. Under all of the evidence I do have, I am a feminist. Under all of the evidence they have, they’re MRAs. I wish they could see things my way, but I know they won’t, because they’ll shut me down before I even began.

    I don’t know if I’m living through a quarter life crisis. :/

  14. Crocs are super comfortable, especially when you’re standing for hours.

    And I don’t really care about their looks. The hypocrisy doesn’t really bother me and I don’t really agree with shaming them based on the way they look… or whether they date or not, or play videogames or not, although I’m happy to say I think that people who hate women should not date women because that’s a recipe for violence.

    A male contraceptive answer would be fucking brilliant. Last I heard they were working on human trials in India about something like that – it’s an injectable substance that’s inserted into the vas deferens that “shreds” or blocks sperm from being released from the testicles. A second substance can be introduced to break it down so it’s completely reversible. That would be really awesome for men who are interested in having a contraceptive option that’s more reliable than condoms (which are already super effective and prevent against STDs so I still recommend them unless you’re 100% sure of your partner’s sexual history [and with MRAs believing all women are lying whores they obviously should constantly utilise condoms - but then that affects the happiness of their penis so they can always find something to complain about]), and it doesn’t rely upon your partner taking contraception either, which with BCPs, like condoms, it doesn’t have a great non-perfect use rate. Although, something that does concern me is how many people forget that condoms are not just contraception and prevent against STDs and how much people might spread STDs if they feel like they don’t have to worry about it because the contraception thing is covered, that was a thing when the BCP was first introduced, to the point that, in Canada at least, many STDs are public health concerns that have to be reported to a database…

  15. Considering that AVFM’s official cartoonist has done about three dozen cartoons of me as a giant baby-man in diapers, I can’t feel too bad about using photos of them that aren’t completely flattering. Not that ANY of the photos of the event make them look good.

  16. Also, ugly shorts guy looks like he’s singing, and Elam does indeed look really confused. Perhaps by the singing.

  17. Quackers — idfk, but my response consisted of the word “fuck” used liberally (see, you do not go after my friends, and my ex-FWB’s brother killed himself, so saying I wish he’d have had more resource is victim blaming struck a goddamned nerve)

    Also, I loved choose your own adventure books. I mean, loved them the way I loved VtM:B, perhaps more. So many options, so many ways for the story to go!

  18. Also, I loved choose your own adventure books.

    Omg, I loved these types of books. I used to read through every single option. Also, Encyclopedia Brown, so fun! I used to do as much work as I could get in order to have money to buy books during the fair, and I’d always get a dollar from my parents to buy a new bookmark. Good times. It’s not nearly as fun now I have my own money and just go to Chapters and find something in the aisles, so much of the fun was getting the little paper catalogue and flipping through it for what I wanted.

  19. If you people keep bringing Bloodlines up, I’m going to have to dig it out and play it… you monsters. Redemption was good too, though not so great with the choices.

  20. The big-F Fascist movements (neo-nazis etc) tend to be *convinced* the reason so many people hate them is because of “communism” (which in turn is a jewish plot or something like that). you see this all throughout nazi literature and into modern day terms like “RAC” which means “Rock against communism” and is a code word for nazi-skinhead music usually themed around beating up blacks or “communists”.

    The parallell is an interesting one to make since essentially these movements are small-f fascist in nature with a huge helping of anti-woman hate speech thrown in..

  21. Each photo posted is more depressing than the last. If they weren’t such complete assholes I would be feeling pretty bad for them right now.

    @Alice Sanguinaria, you sound like me. I too feel like I’m having a quater-life crisis and am sad that this is the MRM.

    feelsbadman.jpg

  22. I feel safe that I could write a whole primer on How to Organize and post it here, and I would not need to worry about MRAs using it because my methods are bottom up/democratic and completely incompatible with their approach. Not posting my bona fides here because of concerns about doxxing, but I was involved in a successful effort to organize a bargaining unit containing thousands of people — and in making the “leadership” look like, and be accountable to, the base.

    Meanwhile, (the possibly constipated) Paul Elam just wants an army to obey his orders.

  23. baileyrenee – You just feel tired, you know? Exhausted. You wake up, hoping that it’s a new day, and then you get up and it’s the same shit every day all day long. People being assholes on the Internet. Someone throwing a temper tantrum online. Someone being so stupid that you just want to bash your head against the keyboard.

    Same old, same shit.

    They say that 20 is pretty young. I feel ancient, a speck in a meaningless world.

    /existentialism

  24. I never click on MRA links, ever since my anti-virus freaked out when I tried to click on a link to AVfM and I started wondering how not-secure those sites might be. The other photos are sadder than the one in the post?

  25. kittehserf

    OT: Cthulhu’s Intern – d’you read Pharyngula? I thought of you when I saw this wonderful art in the latest post.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/09/28/i-get-emailand-an-exercise-for-the-readership/

    That looks suspiciously like the cover of Call of Catthulhu:

    http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/117755/Call-Of-Catthulhu

  26. I really wanted to like CYOA books, but even as a kid, I found they never lived up to the potential of the concept. Way too often there would be bottlenecks where practically every choice leads you to the same place, making the choices feel meaningless, or they’d have a poor causal relationship between what you choose and what actually results. Plus for some reason edutainment had a stranglehold on them.

    I’d be keen to see them done right, but I haven’t so far.

  27. Ok, what is VtM:B? Y’all keep mentioning it and it seems like something I should be interested in … or know about … or something.

  28. For the record: I own that game in pdf. It was a gift from a friend… he knows me. :D

    Let’s just say it has an unusually high concentration of cat/Lovecraft puns. (Whiskathonic University, Nyancatnomicon, Hastpurr of Catcosa etc.)

  29. @Athywren and Alice

    I suspect I might be around the same age as Athywren if we both had Goosebump books when we were young. I’m 28. Don’t really feel anxious about my age but sometimes you’re reminded of something and think “damn…that was a long time ago” lol. If book order forms were still around schools 7 years ago, I hope they are still around now. I think it’s a good way to get kids interested in reading!

    @SittieKittie

    Ah my comments came out wrong. I definitely think that it’s wrong to shame anyone for how they look, I guess that all the years of hearing them bash feminists’ appearance while not being supermodels themselves got to me. I should have been the bigger person though.

    Also my comments about not dating and playing videogames all day were not meant to sound judgmental. I’m a huge believer in people doing as they please so long as they don’t harm anyone else. It’s the fact that MRAs and moreso the MGTOW guys that tell young men to take up hobbies NOT for the sake of taking up hobbies, but because women=bad and hobbies are a way to avoid thinking about then. So yeah…that’s my problem. Not the hobbies or non-dating lifestyle.

  30. Sittiekitty, you are never required to be into, or even know about, anything.

    Except the Beatles. Everyone should know who the Beatles are. But that’s the only exception.

  31. they’d have a poor causal relationship between what you choose and what actually results

    Walk down the passage way: turn to 63

    63
    You trip on a hidden squirrel and break your neck. Your journey is over.

    Same old, same shit.

    They say that 20 is pretty young. I feel ancient, a speck in a meaningless world.

    /existentialism

    This will either cure your existentialism, or amplify it exponentially… one or the other.

  32. I think I may have been forbidden to have Goosebumps books…I feel like it might not have been the material so much as that my parents just thought those kids’ series that cranked out tons of books were kinda stupid. Did manage to acquire an Animorphs book, though.

  33. Alice Sanguinaria – Yea, I’m barely an adult and already feel old and burnt out, but at the same time feel really unexperienced and immature… And being online is just a thing everyone does now, it used to be so fun and interesting, now it just adds more things to feel crappy about.

    Early 20’s are a weird time.

  34. @ katz

    Not the Beatles, but I did once have a coworker who didn’t know who The Ramones were. The rest of us all sat around in the break room staring at her in bemused wonder.

  35. Early twenties are a shitty time for a lot of people, honestly, even if there’s no specific reason for it. I got a lot happier and more positive after I hit about 28 or so.

  36. Re https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q75/s720x720/1209146_171427179714885_221649057_n.jpg that David linked and seeing the whole poster here https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=171424136381856&set=a.171423116381958.1073741859.153783111479292&type=3&theater (you should be able to see that without having a Facebook account), have the evil communist-feminists put some spell on the child that 1 Willpower and 1 Intelligence can’t get past?

    Just noticed the poster here, peering at my screen trying to read the text: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=171423353048601&set=a.171423116381958.1073741859.153783111479292&type=3&theater and finding it intriguing that under the man side abstinence is asterisked as “N/A because of paternity fraud”. TBH I thought abstinence was viewed as N/A because MRAs think they should have sex any time they like, with whoever they like, and there’s no such thing as rape (unless the survivor is a manly man). Have given up trying to work out the “logic” behind bits on the man side such as bankruptcy and prison.

    Also: not 100 people evidence:
    Exhibit A: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=171423556381914&set=a.171423116381958.1073741859.153783111479292&type=3&theater

    Exhibit B: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=171423709715232&set=a.171423116381958.1073741859.153783111479292&type=3&theater

    I found the text for the Men and Boys in Crisis poster here (note AVFM site): http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/posters-needed-for-toronto-protest/ and I hadn’t noticed much discrimination going on in the places listed on the poster. Not sure what the Canadian Maltese Charitable Trust is doing associated with this, but it seems to hinge on Attila Vinczer and his association with the Trust is given here: http://donate2charities.ca/en/THE.CANADIAN.MALTESE.CHARITABLE.SERVICE.TRUST._.0_891450561RR0001 So would it be a case that Vinczer is the support, rather than the Trust itself?

  37. Walk down the passage way: turn to 63

    63
    You trip on a hidden squirrel and break your neck. Your journey is over.

    It was totally like that! It was even worse when it was a good thing, or the gateway to the longest/most interesting path in the book, and every time you’d reread it you’d be going “What do I have to do to make the magic fairy appear?”

  38. I suspect I might be around the same age as Athywren if we both had Goosebump books when we were young. I’m 28.

    Oh, I’m nowhere near that age, grandma!
    <>
    27.

    Ok, what is VtM:B?

    Vampire the Masquerade. It’s an RPG. :B is that, but with Bloodlines on the end. It’s an RPG on computatoes.

  39. Okay, so 7 links trigger moderation? :(

  40. Athywren – It just makes me sad. Every time I read/hear the text of the Pale Blue Dot, I just get sadder and cry. The picture is just so beautiful…

    I feel nihilistic.

    baileyrenee – I hate this burnt out feeling. I want to do something about it, but I can’t. Whatever I do feels useless and meaningless. Then I wonder whether I’m better than the MRAs that we’re all criticizing, because I don’t feel like I’m doing anything either.

  41. Kiwi girl – Yep.

    Source: experience from me debunking some troll’s post in the same way I’d debunk said post on a forum. Slight pain in the ass, since posting links and sources are the way I do debate, but still.

  42. But you see the whole inherent issue with writing a strong CYOA: It has to be a very linear story completely driven by a single character and/or by highly predictable reactions to that character. You can have other characters do static things that will happen in every pathway (unless the reader alters them), but you can’t have other people acting much like real, motive characters, or it undermines the usefulness of the choices.

  43. Alice – thanks, the funny thing is that one of think is just a link to a comment David made earlier on this page. But maybe 6 links would also have put the post into moderation. Time for dinner, anyways. :)

  44. It just makes me sad. Every time I read/hear the text of the Pale Blue Dot, I just get sadder and cry. The picture is just so beautiful…

    *offers hugs*
    I… may be weird. That feeling of being a speck on a speck around a glint in a smudge in amongst all of existence… I like it. I like being made to feel stupid, too. I think it’s because I’m a genius of tremendous universal importance or something. :P

  45. Oh, I’m nowhere near that age, grandma!

    27.

    LOL!

    Re: CYOA

    I myself never really read them. Huge Goosebumps fan though! probably triggered my interest in horror stuff as an adult now that I think about it.

    Anyway, I think I’ll go watch a movie. Goodnight everyone!

  46. G’night, Quackers. Enjoy movie time.

  47. Athywren – I don’t know if the tears are happy or sad. In the grand scheme of things, what we do doesn’t really matter, and yet to us they’re a really big deal.

    It just makes you remember that in the end, some things just really don’t matter.

  48. I guess that all the years of hearing them bash feminists’ appearance while not being supermodels themselves got to me.

    I can get that. It can be really frustrating to hear it all the time.

    Sittiekitty, you are never required to be into, or even know about, anything.

    Yeah, but y’all mention it so much, it sounds cool and I feel like I ought to check it out.

    Early twenties are a shitty time for a lot of people, honestly, even if there’s no specific reason for it.

    I have a theory about that. I suspect that many people view what they’re “going to be when they grow up” in their teens as being completely different – and way more epic – than what they are in their 20s and when they figure that out it is very disappointing and they feel really depressed by how it is. And as they make their way through their 20s they tend to find what they have that’s good in their life and start to come to terms with the lack of “I am going to be a 1%/Unique World-Changer!” and find that there are other things in their life that they can be happy about. So by the time they get close to 30 they learn to let go of that teenage dream and feel comfortable with who they are. That’s just my theory, and obviously it’s super simple, but I think it’s a really good place to start.

  49. Oh lordy, these guys may not be the victims of anything but imaginary feminist conspiracy but they ARE major fashion victims. I mean black socks, shorts and crocs! What. The. Fuck. I would feel sorry for them if they weren’t such assholes.

  50. The way the dude in the shorts is dressed keeps making me think that he’s Evil Mario Batali.

  51. Alice – Uggh, I know exactly what you mean. I wish I could be out making a difference, but have barely enough resources to take care of myself. I wonder if I’m any better too sometimes. I guess, at the very least, we’re not trying to attack the wrong things and people like the MRM do though. Hopefully CassandraSays is right.

    *Keyboard is being weird and I can’t type those little blockquote arrows

    That feeling of being a speck on a speck around a glint in a smudge in amongst all of existence… I like it.

    I do too actually, it takes me away from everything I worry about… I just don’t like feeling like a waste of a speck, if that makes any sense. I can handle being a speck just fine, just not a worthless one in relation to all the other specks.

    Now I’ve typed speck too many times, and I’m worried I’m not spelling it right…

  52. Athywren — you liked Redemption?! Did you manage to beat it? Cuz I always got stuck so frikken early (you know the locked cell you have to escape from during daylight hours? Cue sizzling)

    Anyone who wants VtM:B…email me, this nym at gmail.

    And yeah, I like that feeling of being but a speck in the universe. I can fuck up royally and the rest of the universe won’t even know the difference (now, this gets weird with people who do actually have the power to royally screw things, but I’m not feeling like this is a good time to go on an environmentalist rant)

  53. In the grand scheme of things, what we do doesn’t really matter, and yet to us they’re a really big deal.

    True, but the grand scheme of things doesn’t really matter, at least not in that regard. Why should we expect to be important on a universal scale? Compress all the sound of history into ten minutes, and Beethoven’s symphonies are just a beep. Zoom out far enough, and all of Van Gogh’s paintings are just a pixel… anything out if it’s proper context will appear small and meaningless. If we look at ourselves next to the universe itself we’ll obviously look insignificant, but that doesn’t mean we are.
    …and that’s why I always end up giggling when creationists try to induce existential dread in me with the idea that nobody will remember me in 15 million years “if there’s no god.” (Because it would be totally different if there was one!)

  54. Now now, let’s not mock questionable fashion choices. I’ve seen a certain regular in a striped shirt and traditional plaid kilt (yes I commented on that faux pas)

    Of course, he wasn’t out in public. Otoh, I’m thinking of wearing my costume jacket down there next weekend, floor length in back, vest like in front, very steampunk if I put the chains and such on it. Which reminds me that I need a new pocket watch…

  55. Why would there being a god mean that people 15 million years from now would remember random people? I mean, if humans are still around at that point I doubt we’ll even remember people who were Michael Jackson-level famous. Famous rulers, maybe.

  56. Athywren — you liked Redemption?! Did you manage to beat it? Cuz I always got stuck so frikken early (you know the locked cell you have to escape from during daylight hours? Cue sizzling)

    Are you talking about Prague? The place with those ginormous knight dudes? (It’s about a decade since I played it :P) From what I remember, the trick is just keeping to the shadows as much as possible, though I also remember that whole city being a massive fuckweasel…

  57. baileyrenee – I guess that’s comforting, a little. We’re not screwing up too much, even if for the moment we probably feel really useless in a movement that’s bigger than ourselves.

    Athywren – True, it depends on your frame of reference.

  58. I’m sorry I didn’t mean that to be shaming to anyone’s actual looks, just their terrible choices in wardrobe. I blame Wal-Mart.

  59. Is the shorter guy in the background the one who comments here sometimes, who looks like the guy with the hilarious YouTube rant about how women are evil for not liking it when men get skidmarks?

  60. I don’t like it when I get skidmarks either, How is that evil?

  61. Not wanting to wash some guy’s stained underpants is misandry, apparently, as is preferring men who manage to avoid the problem in the first place.

  62. LOL, it seems like half the people are just there to document the spectacle. Probably film students at the school thinking it would be a funny doc.

    I wish I could read this sign better, omg

    They made a mistake rallying outside where nobody can pull the fire alarm. Their only angle is that people are trying to “censor” their message. When they actually spit it out they have nothing to say.

  63. Pardon me for preferring a Mr. Poopypants who washes his own britches.

  64. Ah, found it!

  65. Fuuuuuuuuuck.

  66. this twitter

    shouldn’t the claim of memorial desecration be proven by a photo of it actually happening??

  67. This video is impossible. So much distortion. Painful.

  68. I wish I could read this sign better, omg

    https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1381413_171423353048601_839972502_n.jpg

    Funny how it seems like a large number of the “choices for women” on that sign seem to be variations on the theme of “just give the baby away!” and a large number of the choices for men are utterly absent – men can adopt, use a surrogate, have sex exclusively with infertile women, or women who are already pregnant. It’s not just condoms, surgery, abstinence or death, guys! Anyway, is a vasectomy really that invasive? I mean, ok, it’s not somewhere I want anyone putting knives, but does it really classify as invasive? When I think invasive surgery, I think of triple heart bypasses… lung transplants… spleen redecoration… not so much an incision and two snips.

  69. Oh, and re skidmarks…. you know that paper stuff that you hear about? Umm… try using it. The probability of skidmarks being absent goes from 0.01% to 99.9% with just that simple action.

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