For A Voice for Men, and its Edmonton offshoot, terrifying women is a form of “human rights activism.”
Men’s Rights Edmonton activist at work
So the self-described “human rights activists” at A Voice for Men have found three more women to harass. Here’s the story, which for many of you will have a depressingly familiar ring:
Members of Men’s Rights Edmonton, a small group that is for all intents and purposes a local chapter of A Voice for Men, has been putting up pictures targeting Lise Gotell, the chair of women’s and gender studies at the University of Alberta. The pictures, which seem inspired by “Wanted” posters of yore, feature a large portrait of Gotell and the caption:
Theft isn’t black. Bank fraud isn’t Jewish. And rape isn’t male.
“Just because you’re paid to demonize men doesn’t mean rape is gendered. Don’t be that bigot.
Gotell’s crime? She was involved in what appears to have been a remarkably effective rape awareness campaign focusing on date rape and featuring the slogan “Don’t Be That Guy.”
A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of evil, false-accusing “girls.” No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.” Now, MR-E and AVFM, at least according to the “argument” advanced on their new poster, seem to be upset that the campaign didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists. [Note: this paragraph has been corrected; see note at end of piece.]
Gotell spoke out against the posters, and now Men’s Rights Edmonton and AVFM are doing their best to smear her as a “bigot.” Because she doesn’t believe that women are responsible for half of all rapes.
Since this is not actually true — more on this in a later post — it’s hard to see how this makes her a bigot.
As a rule, I don’t support tearing down the posters of one’s ideological enemies. Free speech and all that. But these posters are different: they’re slanderous personal attacks designed to harass an individual. Were they posted in my neighborhood I would tear them down.
And evidently that’s what some people in Edmonton have been doing.
Indeed, one recent night, several members of Men’s Rights Edmonton claim to have caught two women doing just that. While they don’t seem to have video footage of the women tearing down the posters, the MRAs filmed themselves following the women down the street and angrily confronting them for this alleged crime.
They posted the video to YouTube, and AVFM posted it as well, under the typically overheated title “Men’s Rights Edmonton confronts fascists.” They screencapped images of both women from the video and announced their intention to uncover their personal information:
MR-E would like to know the names of these two women so that charges of destruction of property can be laid against them. Also, the world should know the identities of those who seek to silence and censor messages advocating for human rights.
Of course, this is ridiculous. Tearing down a poster that was almost certainly posted illegally in the first place isn’t “destruction of property.” No one is going to be prosecuted for this. The police have better things to do.
But of course that’s not the real intent here. The real intent here is to scare the shit out of these women and other feminists by exposing them to harassment online — like the woman labeled “Big Red” and countless other women who have been targeted by AVFM and other MRAs (sometimes completely erroneously).
AVFM’s Paul Elam gave the game away with an “editor’s note” added to the post:
[A] woman who vandalizes man’s property and then flips him off when he confronts her about it on a dark street at night only acts in this manner because she is certain she has absolutely nothing to fear. Feminists terrified of MHRAs? My ass.
Elam could not have made it any clearer: the main point of this kind of “activism” — which has become AVFM’s bread and butter — is all about intimidating women, not helping men.
AVFM, where terrifying individual women is “human rights activism.”
Here’s the appropriate response to that:
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I rewrote the paragraph starting with “A Voice for Men took exception,” which confused AVRM/MR-E’s current objection to Gotell’s views with its original “argument” against the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign.
Posted on September 18, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, doxing, drama kings, edmonton, entitled babies, evil women, harassment, imaginary backwards land, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, not-quite-explicit threats, not-quite-plausible deniability, oppressed white men, paul elam, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, taking pleasure in women's pain, the poster revolution has begun, things that aren't fascism and tagged antifeminism, edmonton, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, rape, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 937 Comments.
“The MRM say that we cannot control ourselves, that if we’re gonna rape, then we’re gonna rape no matter what, because rapists are slavering beasts, so it’s up to women to stay indoors and hide from us all their lives.”
Feminists say the same thing, they just change the bit at the end so that women can go wherever they want and WE have to stay indoors to not rape them. And you’re wrong about the MRM. I started out with vaguely feminist beliefs, like most people in our culture. I became an MRA when I heard people, for the very first time, speaking about my deepest worries without laughing at them or dismissing them.
Citation needed! Come on, man, how about those anonymous surveys?
Alice: he didn’t mean we don’t have to worry about being raped, he’s calling us unfuckable.
I hope everyone clicked on this NOPE, because it involves a corgi’s adorable butt. CORGIS!
katz – Thanks. Someone had to do it, it was too good to pass up. :P
We actually have footage of that fight.
I find it so adorably naive that he thinks the powerful are not prone to crime. What’s next, trickle-down economy FTW?
@jason
I hate to burst your bubble, bub, but you didn’t start out reasonably.
Cute. He’s starting with the abuse apologia.
How come this is always mra’s retort. It’s not like any of us are going to think she’s not the badguy for hitting him, it’s just their straw scenario. This would make me barf in my mouth left if women of color weren’t already arrested for self defence
Citation SORELY needed.
I cannot believe you are comparing RAPING SOMEONE to someone BEING RAPED!
Hint: You can go outside, just DON’T RAPE ANYBODY. it is not that much of a feat.
hellkell – I know that was the other implication, in which case I have a lot of Skype transcripts that I want to show him.
But the “oh, you people never have to worry about rape, ever” makes me furious.
@jason
Um, you need to lock yourself indoors to not rape? wtf. Cuz I’m pretty sure what feminist say is ‘don’t rape’ (along with a bunch of other stuff, but this isn’t the advanced course here.)
Alice, that’s called mental illness. Most rapists are people the victim actually knows, remember? (You feminists are always parading that one about because women shouldn’t trust any men in their lives – but you still have to hide from stranger rapists whenever you leave the house apparently.) Men are more likely than women to be victims of violence, we just aren’t scared of it all the time. The phrase “grow a pair” references male organs for a reason.
Also, Jason, really, not raping people isn’t that hard. I do it every single day. And so do all of my male friends.
The fact that you’re implying that it’s ZOMG SO HARD makes it seem as if you really DO think that a man’s natural inclination is to rape.
“not raping people isn’t that hard. I do it every single day. And so do all of my male friends.”
Exactly! Neither do I or any of my male friends. So why do we constantly have to be told not to rape? Men can stop rape, don’t be that guy…
Jason, if you’re this charming in public, I’m surprised you’re not more scared of violence.
For some reason my “lock all men indoors” initiative had trouble getting enough signatures.
@jason
FUCK NO shithead. I have a mental illness and I have never raped anyone. Take your ableism and shove it up your ass. You don’t get to shove off crime on the mentally ill because you don’t want to own up to the fact that some men, neurotypical or no, ARE FUCKING RAPISTS.
Go fuck yourself.
Because men tell us that if we get raped its our fault. ‘boys will be boys’ ‘you were leading him on’ ‘dressed like that, what were you expecting’ ‘you don’t want to ruin his life over a little misunderstanding do you?’
fuck off forever.
because cismen are obsessed over their on genetalia?
Jason – Dude. That’s not mental illness. That’s reality. It’s called “taking precautions”, which, in case you forgot, is one of the things you MRAs and rape apologists really like to harp on about. “If female didn’t do [thing], she won’t get raped!” Remember?
Please don’t mansplain “female being scared that she might get raped” to a female that ACTUALLY lives in a society where rape apologia is abound.
Jason: if you and your friends are fine, why do you even care? It’s not about you.
@jason
Lord. right after we just had the talk about how one in twenty men are rapists.
Marie: I know. And I honestly think anyone who’s this het up about being told not to rape has probably done some very sketchy shit in their time.
How dare you call me a misogynist!
Jason – Because there are men out there, who, like you, want to apologize for rape.
Because there are men who think that not raping someone means that you should be rewarded with sex.
Because most rapes are committed by men towards women.
Because there’s a lot of people who don’t understand consent.
Because the “don’t be that guy” campaign was aimed at people who didn’t understand consent and who might have raped someone without knowing that what they did was wrong, and not at men who aren’t assholes like you who DO know what words mean and what consent means.
Well, hellkell, it’s targeted right at me, as a man…
“Don’t be that black guy.” Oh, you’re not a mugger? Well, then, why do you care? It’s not about you.
Marie, I was talking about people who live in a constant state of fear, not rapists, genius.
And now he’s being equally stupid about racism!
He just has a deep and abiding hatred of PSAs. “Stay off the tracks.” “WHAT, DO YOU THINK I’M A MORON?” “Wash your hands during flu season.” “ARE YOU CALLING ME A PLAGUE VECTOR?” “Only you can prevent wildfires.” “FUCK YOU, WHY IS IT ALWAYS MY JOB?”
@jason
cute. Throwing in some racism.
Also, power dynamics. ‘black men are scary’ something white people say to demonize black people and make violence against them more acceptable.
Men are a privileged group. (white)* men haven’t been stereotyped as rapists to demonize them.
*since black men have been stereotyped as the rapists of white women to demonize them before, and if the posters being made were following this pattern that would be a very fucking bad thing.
@katz, I am now picturing Pierre fielding an angry phone call while working at a non-profit that makes educational signs.
Jason – fuck you. Take your privilege of never having to worry about being raped or attacked because you’re living while female and fuck off.
Privileged groups = men, white people, able-bodied people, neurotypical people, cis people, straight people, and many others!
marginalized groups =women, PoC, disabled people (mental or physical), trans* people, LBG people, and many others!
Notice something? In your comparative thing, it would be “Don’t be that WHITE guy”.
I wonder what on earth Jason’s idea of “holding my tongue and responding reasonably” is. I doubt it resembles a decent human being’s idea of it. Because today Jason has clearly shown he isn’t that.
@jason
…? I was responding to you saying neither you nor your male friends are rapists. 1 in 20 men are rapists. You can’t know if your friends are rapists. statistically speaking, some peoples friends are rapists.
“Buzzed driving is drunk driving” “I WOULD NEVER DRUNK DRIVE OMIGOD THIS IS SO OFFENSIVE
“Stay off the tracks.” YOU EVIL VICTIM BLAMER, YOU SHOULD TELL THE TRAINS NOT TO RUN ME OVER! “Wash your hands during flu season.” TELL THE GERMS NOT TO INFECT, DON’T TELL ME NOT TO GET SICK! “Only you can prevent wildfires.” I’M SICK OF ALL THIS VICTIM BLAMING! JUST BECAUSE I LEAVE A LIT MATCH ON THE GROUND DOES NOT MEAN I WANT TO START A FIRE! I’M GOING TO START THE WILDFIRE WALK!
Privileged groups = men, white people, able-bodied people, neurotypical people, cis people, straight people, and many others!
marginalized groups =women, PoC, disabled people (mental or physical), trans* people, LBG people, and many others!
THIS is the biggest lie of modern times – that women are marginalized and oppressed in the same way that blacks are, and men are a privileged group just like whites. Most meters of social well-being that apply to whites, also apply to women. What do you say about that?
wow jason has started paroding himself.
trains aren’t people. the train driver will likely try to stop but trains stop slowly.
again, germs not people. You can’t tell germs to stop infecting you because they are not people.
and yeah this one is actually targeting the person who started it so I see no…problem.
Jason dear, false equivalency doesn’t help your case.
After all, if you were just walking down the street and a driver went out of their way to hit you with their car, it’s the driver’s fault that they chose to ram into you with a car, right?
So why is it any different for rape?
Ffs. Apologies in advance to any gay people in the room, this is the only way I know of to get the message across to this kind of person.
Ok, Jason, there’s this guy, he likes you. Like, really, really likes you. You don’t find him attractive, or interesting, or particularly pleasant, but he likes you, and he keeps on trying to get your attention. Consensually, of course, he’s a nice guy! So he’s got you cornered in some walk in closet and, obviously, he wants to have sex with you. Now… he’s been working really hard to get your attention consensually, so you owe him, right?
If women are more oppressed than men, how come most racial stereotypes (“angry black man” and the like) apply to men? How come anti gay male hate crimes vastly outnumber anti lesbian hate crimes?
@ Everyone not Jason
Okay, how do you deal with that level of cluelessness.
I guess I’ll try
Here’s a hint. WHITE women benefit from the social well-being that applies to WHITE people. They do not benefit from the male privilege MEN benefit from.
Women of color do NOT benefit from the social well-being that applies to white people BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WHITE.
Jason, you have actually stumbled upon a point. White woman are more privileged than women of color. It’s called intersectionallity. You don’t have to go “who has it worse, black people or women?!?!??!!?” because black women exist, and they have to deal with racism and sexism. ffs.
That should be *accidentally stumble upon a point, not actually.
This is an epic meltdown.
The stereotype you are thinking of is ‘angry black woman’ btw.
hate crimes= citation needed dearly.
Angry Black Woman is not a thing?
@Jason
A) i don’t think it’s all against men (demure lotus blossom stereotypes for east asian women? Angry black women stereotypes?) and B)
THAT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE MEN! YOUR EXAMPLES INVOLVED ANTI GAY AND RACIST CRIMES. NOT ANTI MALE. YOU CANNOT EQUATE THESE THINGS. BECAUSE IT IS NOT BASED ON GENDER IN YOUR EXAMPLES.
Athywren – Well, if I was happy to take every single thing that nice guy did for me, I’d have to expect to give something in return, wouldn’t I? I mean, if I didn’t want to have sex from the guy, I should at least be honest enough to not accept his one-sided altruism?
*sigh*
Good news, Marie, you can’t push my wheelchair over steep hills. It’s not acceptable unless I do something in return. You can’t you know, MENTION that you want something in return first; I have to read your mind.
@jason
1) women accept things because men usually get angry when they refuse ‘I WAS JUST TRYING TO BE NICE YOU C*NT’
2) Nice victim blaming, go fuck off forever.
greendaywantsavatars – Don’t forget “Asian women can’t drive” and “Asian women are abusive Tiger Moms”. And “East Asian women are submissive and obedient”.
Nobody crosses the street when they see a black woman coming. Nobody files a false police report saying they were beaten up by black women. And, to be fair, fewer true police reports are filed about whites than blacks. Politically incorrect though it may be to say, if you want to argue that men are bad because they commit more crimes, you’d also have to make a racist argument about blacks…
Holy shit you did not go there.
@fade
what will brother do? He actually likes pushing your chair. Do you still have to do something nice for him even when he asks to? I must know.
PIERRE: Premiere Industrial Signage, how may I help you?
JASON: I’d like to complain about item C33-A.
PIERRE: Ah, yes, “Do Not Enter.” That’s one of our bestsellers. It’s also available in aluminum with or without a reflective coating. What seems to be the problem?
JASON: Who do you think you are?
PIERRE: Pardon?
JASON: Ordering me around like that! You can’t tell me where I can and can’t go. Do you know who I am?
PIERRE: Sir, the sign is not directed at you specifically. It’s a general warning.
JASON: General, my ass! I’m standing here and “Do Not Enter” is staring me in the face! Did you even stop to think about how that makes me feel?
PIERRE: I’m afraid that OSHA prioritizes safety over personal feelings.
JASON: Well, you can’t tell me what to do! I’m going to walk through this door right now and there’s nothing you can do about it!
PIERRE: Sir, I wouldn’t advise–
*static*
PIERRE (hanging up): Maybe if we offered it in fluorescent…
Greenday – women aren’t equivalent to disabled people, either. Try again,
…
Nope. Nope nope. Stop trying to compare something made up (systematic misandry) to something real (systematic racism).
Nobody files false police reports saying they were beaten up by white men, either…
Is Jason seriously trying to argue that black women (and other WOC) aren’t oppressed? May he step on all the legos forever.
“
Politically incorrectRacist though it may be to say”–there I fixed that for you.Jason, you are an asshole. You’re not a Nice Guy.
Not raping someone isn’t something that a Nice Guy does. Not raping someone should be common courtesy done for everybody, not just for the woman you really want to bang.
Helping people and being nice to them should be a means to itself, not quid pro quo.
Marie – That would be a good time for women to grow a pair and say what’s on their minds. If you want to be equal to men, you have to actually try, you know.
@Jason
Nice try, but I am a DISABLED WOMAN! You cannot separate those two things.
Try again
@katz
great pierre script :D
@jason
OHMIGOD I GUESS THERE ARE NO DISABLED WOMEN WE CAN DIE HAPPY NOW!
@ fade (and countless others here, but I don’t have a list.)
I guess now that you know you are a women, you cannot be disabled.
@jason again.
I’m a woman. Please tell me if I’m allowed to be suffering mental illness, or if I’m just confused.
katz – BAHAHAHAHAHA. I love that script. :D
But it is fitting, since he started out with some false equivalency.
“Is Jason seriously trying to argue that black women (and other WOC) aren’t oppressed?”
Only by way of arguing that women as a whole aren’t oppressed, so a woman of an oppressed group isn’t more oppressed than a man of that oppressed group.
@jason
this is just confusing because we’ve been trying for over a century hello?
Jason – you know, that’s what we’ve been doing all this time. You just ignore us in order to attack imaginary strawpeople and to whine about how white men are the most disadvantaged group EVER.
*yawn* Anything else you want to add on?
OHMIGOD I GUESS THERE ARE NO DISABLED WOMEN WE CAN DIE HAPPY NOW!
Nice straw man. If you’re a disabled woman, then you’re unfortunate enough to be disabled, and you happen to be a female. You’re not “oppressed,” certainly not because of your femininity.