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For A Voice for Men, and its Edmonton offshoot, terrifying women is a form of “human rights activism.”

Men's Rights Edmonton activist at work

Men’s Rights Edmonton activist at work

So the self-described “human rights activists” at A Voice for Men have found three more women to harass. Here’s the story, which for many of you will have a depressingly familiar ring:

Members of Men’s Rights Edmonton, a small group that is for all intents and purposes a local chapter of A Voice for Men, has been putting up pictures targeting Lise Gotell, the chair of women’s and gender studies at the University of Alberta. The pictures, which seem inspired by “Wanted” posters of yore, feature a large portrait of Gotell and the caption:

Theft isn’t black. Bank fraud isn’t Jewish. And rape isn’t male.

“Just because you’re paid to demonize men doesn’t mean rape is gendered. Don’t be that bigot.

Gotell’s crime? She was involved in what appears to have been a remarkably effective rape awareness campaign focusing on date rape and featuring the slogan “Don’t Be That Guy.”

A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of evil, false-accusing “girls.” No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.” Now, MR-E and AVFM, at least according to the “argument” advanced on their new poster, seem to be upset that the campaign didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists.  [Note: this paragraph has been corrected; see note at end of piece.]

Gotell spoke out against the posters, and now Men’s Rights Edmonton and AVFM are doing their best to smear her as a “bigot.” Because she doesn’t believe that women are responsible for half of all rapes.

Since this is not actually true — more on this in a later post — it’s hard to see how this makes her a bigot.

As a rule, I don’t support tearing down the posters of one’s ideological enemies. Free speech and all that. But these posters are different: they’re slanderous personal attacks designed to harass an individual. Were they posted in my neighborhood I would tear them down.

And evidently that’s what some people in Edmonton have been doing.

Indeed, one recent night, several members of Men’s Rights Edmonton claim to have caught two women doing just that. While they don’t seem to have video footage of the women tearing down the posters, the MRAs filmed themselves following the women down the street and angrily confronting them for this alleged crime.

They posted the video to YouTube, and AVFM posted it as well, under the typically overheated title “Men’s Rights Edmonton confronts fascists.” They screencapped images of both women from the video and announced their intention to uncover their personal information:

MR-E would like to know the names of these two women so that charges of destruction of property can be laid against them. Also, the world should know the identities of those who seek to silence and censor messages advocating for human rights.

Of course, this is ridiculous. Tearing down a poster that was almost certainly posted illegally in the first place isn’t “destruction of property.” No one is going to be prosecuted for this. The police have better things to do.

But of course that’s not the real intent here. The real intent here is to scare the shit out of these women and other feminists by exposing them to harassment online — like the woman labeled “Big Red” and countless other women who have been targeted by AVFM and other MRAs (sometimes completely erroneously).

AVFM’s Paul Elam gave the game away with an “editor’s note” added to the post:

[A] woman who vandalizes man’s property and then flips him off when he confronts her about it on a dark street at night only acts in this manner because she is certain she has absolutely nothing to fear. Feminists terrified of MHRAs? My ass.

Elam could not have made it any clearer: the main point of this kind of “activism” — which has become AVFM’s bread and butter — is all about intimidating women, not helping men.

AVFM, where terrifying individual women is “human rights activism.”

Here’s the appropriate response to that:

edmontonfingerPN

CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I rewrote the paragraph starting with “A Voice for Men took exception,” which confused AVRM/MR-E’s current objection to Gotell’s views with its original “argument” against the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign.

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Posted on September 18, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, doxing, drama kings, edmonton, entitled babies, evil women, harassment, imaginary backwards land, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, not-quite-explicit threats, not-quite-plausible deniability, oppressed white men, paul elam, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, taking pleasure in women's pain, the poster revolution has begun, things that aren't fascism and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 937 Comments.

  1. Hellkell, you’re wrong about normal men being rapists. And our good friend Howard Bannister just posted a study rebutting that notion.

  2. Thank you for taking my quote out of context, Fade.

    HAHAHAHAHA, no.

  3. No, Cloudiah, you’re just not thinking like a scientist. You have to consider every possible alternative in an instance of correlation. Causation is very hard to prove, anyone with an education could tell you that.

    Too bad you’re not that person, innit?

  4. Jason, it’s a real pity you didn’t understand the article Howard posted. I know, you’re just not that bright.

  5. “Okay, so if you don’t go on reporting rape as a way to figure out how much rape is going on, how else are you supposed to figure it out?”

    Anonymous surveys, perhaps? Here’s another stumper. If rape is massively underreported and you can only rely on reports of rape to determine rape rates, then how do you feminists know that rape is massively underreported?

  6. Why do so many trolls misunderstand the scientific method?

    Maybe the rate of rape went down because of FAIRIES. Maybe it went down because of SUNSPOTS. Maybe scientists released ANTI-RAPE SPORES INTO THE AIR DUCTS IN COLLEGE DORMITORIES. Scientists must carefully and logically consider all of these possibilities. STEMLOGIC.

  7. That’s not really the stumper you think it is, Jason.

  8. Jason | September 20, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    How do you know that “Don’t be that guy” didn’t just cut reports of sexual assault, by normalizing rape?

    Actually, the standard ‘null hypothesis’ helps us understand why it’s a pretty powerful argument.

    What happens when you run an education campaign about what rape is and how even grey areas are really rape?

    What do you expect to change in whether women report rape?

    Well, if they’re seeing society taking rape more seriously, shouldn’t they feel more empowered to report rape, even when it’s in so-called ‘grey areas’?

    What’s YOUR working null hypothesis?

    Or do you just like throwing the word ‘science’ around?

    And, um, proving that one in 20 men is a serial rapist doesn’t hardly prove ‘normal men’ aren’t rapists, dumb-ass.

  9. cloudiah: don’t be silly, it’s UNLEADED GASOLINE.

  10. @jason

    Your link shows slightly more than a hundred rapists, out of nearly two thousand men. You highlight the 120 men who have raped in red, but you don’t acknowledge the fact that 1,762 men haven’t raped. If rape was part of normal masculinity, you wouldn’t get such a high percentage of men who hadn’t raped at all. So, I think that supports my thesis that rapists are a small subset of men.

    Way to miss the point. The point was it was still a significant portion. A little under 10% (sorry non-troll people, did I do that right? I’m bad a math.) Means 1 in every 12 to 15 (other people have said 20 so I’ll go with that) guys you meet probably is a rapist. And will have admitted to rape. The point wasn’t ‘all men are rapists’ the point is that we are living in a rape culture and that you cannot acknolewdge this. You think the mras posters were the same when few rapists ever actually serve time.

    So no, I don’t think a huge portion of men are rapists, I just think the posters aren’t equivlent.

    Considering that you can be labeled a sex offender and have your life ruined if you pee on a bush or go streaking now, I’d actually support a mercy call for first-time sex offenders, too.

    Reasonable thing to do here: Wait, peeing on bush makes you a sex offender? That’s ridiculous, we should work on changing that.

    Unreasonable/ rape apologia thing: Mercy call for sex offenders!

    Also, if you read the damn article there it’d be clear the person writing it wasn’t thinking peeing on bushes. Hell, it’s got in giant letters ‘when a man gets carried away…is it a social misbehavior or a crime’.

    Okay, you did read the article,

    Then again, the guy in the article was actually talking about rapists. I think he supports being merciful on first-time rapists because he’s bought into the feminist myth that rapists are normal men who didn’t know what they were doing.

    that’s not a feminist myth, shithead.

    Lawyers use every defense, no matter how silly it might sound – that’s their job

    And the fact that he still wasn’t arrested says something huge about the jury. He still should have gotten manslaughter if that’s true. You get manslaughter if you kill someone. FFS.

    You have to consider every possible alternative in an instance of correlation

    dang, why isn’t my mom home? She’s a scientist (microbioligist) , and I love her getting baffled by trolls claiming SCIENCE! on manboobz.

  11. One in 20 is a small minority. 1 in 25 people is a psychopath, remember? 1 in 50 has OCD? If only men are rapists, then 1 in 40 people out there is a rapist. But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society. (But rape is about power, right? It’s something men do to keep women in a state of fear?)

  12. “Okay, so if you don’t go on reporting rape as a way to figure out how much rape is going on, how else are you supposed to figure it out?”

    Anonymous surveys, perhaps? Here’s another stumper. If rape is massively underreported and you can only rely on reports of rape to determine rape rates, then how do you feminists know that rape is massively underreported?

    Jason, dude, are you aware that such victimization surveys actually exist?

    I’m going to go ahead and call you a dumb-ass again.

  13. No, I love the idea of one “get out of jail free” card. Do we get one for each type of crime, or just one we can spend on anything? Either way I’ll have to carefully think about who I want to murder.

  14. hellkell – No, it’s the rise of SMARTPHONES.

    I mean, it’s not like understanding what consent is and means makes people more knowledgeable on what is okay and what is not okay. It’s not like knowing that is bad causes people to not DO it, right?

  15. Seriously, bad logic/science makes me mad and I’m not even a logician/scientist. Speaking of bad logic, I read an article in the Guardian that seriously made the argument that that UN study of rape in Asia was wrong because it included two areas that had recently experienced armed conflict. Because apparently, this little world we live in is SO peaceful, and armed conflict is SO rare, that including those areas skewed the survey results. It made me want to… THIS. And it was the fucking Guardian, where I expect a higher degree of logic than the Daily Fail.

  16. Except some crimes a single card is not enough. I mean, you should get like one “run a red light” card a month. COME ON IT CHANGED WHEN I WAS HALFWAY OVER THE CROSSWALK!

  17. But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA. Being this much of a dumb-ass should cause you physical pain.

  18. Insert [rapey action] into the last sentence of this comment and it all makes sense. Stupid WordPress.

  19. But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society. (But rape is about power, right? It’s something men do to keep women in a state of fear?)

    THE PROBLEM IS IN THOSE DASTARDLY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE PRIVILEGED PEOPLE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY..

    So why on earth do you think rapists are more likely to be in the “lower echelons of society”.

  20. One in 20 is a small minority. 1 in 25 people is a psychopath, remember? 1 in 50 has OCD? If only men are rapists, then 1 in 40 people out there is a rapist. But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society. (But rape is about power, right? It’s something men do to keep women in a state of fear?)

    What the hell?

    Pscyopathy: first, that’s not really a thing. Second, where do you get your numbers?

    A 2008 study using the Psychopathy Checklist: Screening Version (PCL: SV) found that 1.2% of a US sample scored 13 or more which indicates “potential psychopathy”. Over half of those studied had scores of 0 or 1 and about two-thirds scored 2 or less. Higher scores were significantly associated with more violence, higher alcohol use, and estimated lower intelligence.[55]

    So, NOPE.

    Studies have placed the prevalence of the disorder at between one and three percent,[vague] although the prevalence of clinically recognized OCD is much lower, suggesting that many individuals with the disorder may not be diagnosed.[88]

    Again, no.

    (these are all from wiki)

    And where did you get one in forty men being rapists? Now you’re running away from the numbers I just posted, full tilt.

  21. Double parking cards, jaywalking cards…Oh, and we’ll have to make sure to establish a card exchange. Lots of people are going to be unloading their arson and blackmail cards and wanting a few dozen misdemeanor cannabis cards in trade.

  22. Also, seriously, 1 out of 20 men having admitting to raping someone isn’t large enough for you Jason? Really? You actually want to play that game of “how much is too much”?

    The stupidity hurts my head. :(

  23. No, I love the idea of one “get out of jail free” card. Do we get one for each type of crime, or just one we can spend on anything? Either way I’ll have to carefully think about who I want to murder.

    I think that I’ll use my get out of jail free card on robbing a bank. I’ll have enough money to go to school AND buy e-motion power assist wheels for my wheelchair!

    And where did you get one in forty men being rapists?

    To be fair, I think he was saying people in general, not men.

    Also, what’s with continuing bringing up OCD? Idk what the troll is even trying to do anymore…

  24. Dang, that link shouldn’t go on that long…

    One in 20 is a small minority.

    Nope.

    1 in 25 people is a psychopath, remember? 1 in 50 has OCD?

    And those still aren’t terribly rare. What’s your point? (also, I see howard bannister has picked apart this better.)

    If only men are rapists, then 1 in 40 people out there is a rapist.

    No, because men aren’t the only rapists out there, sheesh.

    But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society

    suuurrreee they are cupcake. Sure they are.

    Ps citation needed.

    pps, anyone getting a classist/racist vibe coming from this?

  25. So why on earth do you think rapists are more likely to be in the “lower echelons of society”

    Perhaps because, like most crimes, rape is about powerlessness, not power?

  26. PS: on the OCD, between 1 and 3 perfect is about one in fifty, as he says. Except that’s the guesswork, and it notes that actual diagnoses are much lower. Which, well, there’s a can of worms, I think we know that’s bogus…

    The point is that if you add up all the possibly OCD people with all the possibly psycopath people and all the other categories, well, you’re still not even anywhere near the number of serial rapists.

    BUT THERE’S NO PAAATREEARKY, JASON SAID SO

  27. @fade

    I think that I’ll use my get out of jail free card on robbing a bank. I’ll have enough money to go to school AND buy e-motion power assist wheels for my wheelchair!

    I’ll spend mine on vandalism. I’ve only seen one, but everytime I see those damn prolife billboards I wanna scream.

  28. It’s so funny how, half the time, your genius feminist responses to me are something along the lines of “HAHAHA” and “NO.”

  29. Perhaps because, like most crimes, rape is about powerlessness, not power?

    *headdesk*

    Okay Jason, actual citations, not that hard. I don’t want to hear anymore explanations pulled from your ass.

  30. @Jason

    Fuuuuuuuck.

    Right, yeah, totally.

    Only Lisak’s survey was of college-bound men, i.e., higher echelons, and McWhorter’s was of Navy recruits, i.e., lower echelons, and THEIR NUMBERS WERE DAMN NEAR IDENTICAL.

    DO THE READING BEFORE YOU SOUND OFF, OR YOU SOUND AS IGNORANT AS YOU ARE

  31. Perhaps because, like most crimes, rape is about powerlessness, not power?

    Do you have any EV. I. DENCE?

  32. I’ll spend mine on telling Jason where to shove it…Oh wait, I don’t need a card to do that!

  33. It’s so funny how, half the time, your genius feminist responses to me are something along the lines of “HAHAHA” and “NO.”

    read the headline. we MOCK misogyny. It’s not our job to carefully refute it. Though I’m still trying, because I”m bored.

  34. Perhaps because, like most crimes, rape is about powerlessness, not power?

    You are truly a terrible person.

  35. It’s so funny how, half the time, your genius feminist responses to me are something along the lines of “HAHAHA” and “NO.”

    …it’s funny that you can’t see that you’ve put so little thought and effort into your posts that your own posts are little more than that. We’re just scraping off the excess verbiage you pump in to make yourself feel like you’re making a cogent argument.

  36. Well, none of you assholes ever have to worry about rape…

  37. I’m just so happy I got to be the one to point out the headline to the troll that’s the first time I’ve got to do that all on my own.

  38. It’s so funny how, half the time, your genius feminist responses to me are something along the lines of “HAHAHA” and “NO.”

    Wow, it’s almost like everything you say is either a) completely ridiculous or b) completely horrifying. Or both.

    Off-topic: Humon drew an adorable picture of bears. (No, the other kind.)

  39. … What does that mean, Jason?

  40. @jason

    cute. Pulling the ‘your unfuckable card.’ grow up.

    troll meltdown commencing in 3…2…

    also, I think most people would be HAPPY not to worry about rape, and what you said was terrible to any survivors here (and I know there are some).

    Go hug a cactus, you insufferable prick.

  41. It’s so funny how, half the time, your genius feminist responses to me are something along the lines of “HAHAHA” and “NO.”

    That’s because half of us are doing such a fantastic job of pulverizing your arguments, that the other half can just point and laugh while saying NOPE.

  42. RE: unfuckable card

    If that’s what it is, I am going to need to puke… *bleh*

  43. @katz

    I’m sure that picture is misandry somehow :P

  44. Well, none of you assholes ever have to worry about rape…

    Ah, the ‘unrapeable’ comment, implying that rape is a compliment that only ever happens to sexy people.

    Required Reading: Rape is NOT a compliment.

  45. See, that’s how feminists operate. Pick at you and pick at you until you say something nasty, and then parade it around for the world to see. Like you did to TheAmazingAtheist.

  46. katz –

    Two people meet up in a back alley in a city somewhere.

    1: So we’re doing this, right? We’re really going to do this? We won’t get in trouble?

    2: Of course not, you scary cat. Remember, we have the “get out of jail for dealing” free cards, remember? They can’t arrest us!

    1: Oh yeah, I forgot. Oops. You have the goods?

    2: Yep, You have the payment?

    1: Yes. A “get out of abduction” card, a “get out of rape” card, a “get out of first-degree murder” card, and a “get out of arson” card for fifty “get out of smoking pot” cards, and fifty “get out of possessing pot” cards right?

    2: Correct.

    Both trade.

    1: counting cards Ah, good, they’re all there. Say, what did you need those cards for anyhow?

    2: Don’t ask, don’t tell.

    End scene.

  47. Fuck off, Jason; you truly make the world worse by merely existing.

  48. Gotta go. Have fun batting this utterly clueless troll around till the flounce!

  49. @jason

    ::snickers::

    Dude, you’ve been straight up horrible the whole time you were here, that’s not really picking.

  50. HAHAHAH—feminists had to pick at him to make that asshole say something offensive?

    HAHHAHAHAHAHAH

    Pull the other one, it has bells on.

  51. Jason, why do you think you deserve better answers than laughter and derision? Entitled much?

    And this is over the line, shitstain:

    Well, none of you assholes ever have to worry about rape…

  52. @howard bannister

    have fun wherever you’re going, assuming it is a fun thing!

    Ps I should clarify my snickering was at the amazing atheist being brought up. I can’t respond to that. I mean, he’s constantly horrible.

  53. See, that’s how feminists operate. Pick at you and pick at you until you say something nasty, and then parade it around for the world to see.

    “I wouldn’t hit my girlfriend if she didn’t provoke me.”

    Like you did to TheAmazingAtheist

    LO-fucking-L.

  54. Say not so, Cloudiah! Say not so!

  55. Jason, we didn’t MAKE you say anything nasty. You made a CHOICE.

    Nice abuser logic, fucknut.

  56. Alice: Nice! You are going to be a valuable asset to the MBZ comics club.

  57. You know, when I did hold my tongue and respond reasonably, you didn’t exactly make it easy for me then, either…

  58. With the way Jason thinks, no wonder he’s trying to defend rapists.

  59. I mean he’s been picking at us, and somehow we’ve managed not to say anything worse than “Fuck off.” I guess that’s because we’re not abusive shitstains.

  60. Jason: we’re not here to make things easy for you. Fuck off.

  61. Well, you said some equally nasty things to me, I just finally retorted. Kind of like a woman who hits a man over and over and over and over and over, and when he finally hits her back she calls the cops and gets him thrown in jail. (More common than you’d think.)

  62. Aww, did I miss him? Damn, this seems to happen every time I leave the house in the middle of blogwatching.

    So anyway, does anyone else find it cute that his argument against tearing down posters singling out an individual as a terrible person is to derail from the issue entirely? I mean, ignore the fact that the argument is a false equivalence to begin with. Ignore the misrepresentations of the “don’t be that guy” posters as anti-male hate speech. Ignore the downplaying of the rape apologia inherent in arguing that being too drunk to consent to sex, while someone was having sex – whatever we may think of the sense of getting that drunk – with you isn’t rape. These are all red herrings, they’re strawmen, they’re distractions brought up for the intellectually dishonest purposes of winning an easy debate, rather than communicating, and the poor guy can’t even get that much right!
    They’re direct attack at a private individual. They’re a photograph of a person, against whom a great deal of hatred is directed, essentially calling her a paid shill for… I don’t know… big all-men-are-rapists-a, calling her a bigot. These are the lowest of the low tactics, they are an outsourcing of violence with a thinly plausible deniability. These gutless worms intend harm, but lack the courage to take responsibility for it. I mean, that’s understandable, I’m used to those kinds of tactics – I watch American political campaigns – but they’re using me to justify it, claiming that their hate is in defence of my rights.

    Men are being demonised here, definitely so. Not by posters that give both men and women cause to think about how they act, but by a movement that uses us as an excuse to intimidate people on the streets.

    In summary, (that means tl;dr) Jason…. how about you pay attention to what feminists are actually saying, rather than blindly accepting the bile that’s sold to you by the morons of the MRM? The MRM say that we cannot control ourselves, that if we’re gonna rape, then we’re gonna rape no matter what, because rapists are slavering beasts, so it’s up to women to stay indoors and hide from us all their lives. Feminists say we are human beings, and can behave as humans if we truly wish to. I want to behave as a human. Why don’t you?

  63. cloudiah: and there’s much clutching of the pearls when we do tell him to fuck off.

  64. See, that’s how feminists operate. Pick at you and pick at you until you say something nasty, and then parade it around for the world to see. Like you did to TheAmazingAtheist.

    How many mean comments before you shove a banana up your butt?

  65. (Sorry, sorry, I know we’re not supposed to talk about that, I just couldn’t resist!)

  66. Well, you said some equally nasty things to me, I just finally retorted. Kind of like a woman who hits a man over and over and over and over and over, and when he finally hits her back she calls the cops and gets him thrown in jail. (More common than you’d think.)

    Oh, do fuck off.

  67. Jason – “Well, none of you assholes ever have to worry about rape…”

    Whut? I don’t have to worry about rape, ever?

    So I can totally walk to Target in a T-shirt and jeans in the middle of the night to buy some Raid, and I don’t have to leave my iPod at home, hold my keys in a fist, avoid dark spots, making sure that my pathway was full of open businesses so that if I needed it I could run in and call 911, or worry that maybe that’s not ever enough?

    I never have to think about “what if there’s a rapist on campus?” when I walk home from a late night exam in a lecture hall that’s some distance away from my dorm? I don’t ever have to worry that someone’s hiding behind a tree or something waiting to rape me, a female riding her bike on her own?

    I never have to worry about people actually wanting to abduct and RAPE me, even though someone has made a public rape threat towards me online?

    Really?

    Your statement doesn’t just burn with stupid. It burns of mansplaning and obnoxious asshole. And it burns with the fury of a billion suns.

  68. But probably not the ones you know, probably rapists are overrepresented at the lower echelons of society.

    So why on earth do you think rapists are more likely to be in the “lower echelons of society”

    Perhaps because, like most crimes, rape is about powerlessness, not power?

    How…. scientific.

    Takes stance not backed by research. Makes supposition based on said non-proven claim. When asked why he takes said claim points back to unsupported stance. Strikes a blow against feminists for science!!

  69. Well, you said some equally nasty things to me, I just finally retorted. Kind of like a woman who hits a man over and over and over and over and over, and when he finally hits her back she calls the cops and gets him thrown in jail. (More common than you’d think.)

    In the imaginary backwards land where Jason dwells, certainly.

  70. Jason’s argument (for such a “smart” guy): YOU STARTED IT, HARPIES.

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